LLPOH’s Short Story: Why Would a Company Offshore Its Business?

I am always stunned by the comments that appear relative to corporations deciding to take their businesses offshore. There are screams about it being a short-sighted decision, that the corporations are cutting their own throats, and that the businesses are evil and are doing it to spite the working class.

So, let’s take a look at some of the reasons why a corporation would move offshore:

Corporate Tax Rate:

The US corporate tax rate is the highest in the world, at 39%. That is astonishingly high. For every dollar they earn, they give 39% to the federal government. Some very large corporations have gotten extremely good at minimizing this rate, but it costs them a lot to do so (albeit less than actually paying the rate.

Adding insult to injury, there are also state corporate tax rates – the highest (Iowa) maxing out at 12%. So if you run a corporation in Iowa, your highest total corporate tax rate is 51%. If you happen to be in California, the state corporate tax rate is 8.84%. In Pennsylvania, 9.9%. So, the effective corporate tax rate total is in the neighbourhood of 50%.

There is simply no way to put this other than to say that that is absolutely appalling. If you own a corporation paying that rate, and decide to take a dividend, you pay a further 15% on what you take out. So if your corporation makes $100 profit, you lose $50 to corporate tax, and then you lose a further $7.50 to dividend tax. Your effective tax rate is then almost 58%.
And here is the further kicker – the idiot Democrats want to take the dividend tax rate up to the marginal rate – let us say 35%. In that case, out of your $100 profit, you would lose $50 to corporate tax rates, plus a further $17.50 to dividend tax, leaving the owner of the business to take home an amazing $33.50 for every $100 dollars the corporation manages to make.

If you were a corporation owner, and faced the prospect of this occurring, would you not run for the hills? Would not a low-tax nation look enticing? Be honest – would you really take the chance of funding a business, when the reward you can reap is 33.5% of profits? Really?

High Cost of Labor

Wages in the US are the world’s highest, at around $54,000 per person. That is a disadvantage if you are competing in a world market. Trust me on that. In addition to that wage, you also have the joy of payroll tax, which is currently 7.65%. Any bets that it will go up as SS runs out of money, or as Medicare falls further into the black hole? Would you bet your house on that? Business owners do.

The cost of providing medical insurance adds a further $12,000 – $15,000 per employee. Anyone want to make the same bet – that it will not keep climbing? Bet your house on it, maybe?

Unemployment taxes add about another $1000 per year to the costs. And we all know unemployment rates will surely fall, now don’t we?

So, the US has the highest wages in the world, and the additional costs per employee probably push $20,000 per year. The additional costs exceed the base wages per employee in all but about 20 countries on earth. If you were running a business, and were faced with base costs of about $75,000 per employee, do you think just maybe there would be incentive to look to offshore some of that extraordinary cost?

Compliance Cost/Miscellaneous Cost

There are huge compliance costs with doing business in the US. EPA and OSHA lead the way. Choose your own numbers for these, but even small businesses spend tens of thousands of dollars a year dealing with EPA and OSHA issues.
There are sundry miscellaneous costs as well – such as property tax, etc. If you ae unfortunate enough to have a unionized workforce, you can add further tens of thousands of dollars per year dealing with those issues.

Countries without such compliance costs certainly look attractive if you are a business owner.

Ways to Compete

There are three main ways a company can compete for business. They are via price, via service, or via quality. Some companies – Apple, for instance – have managed to carve out a niche where they compete on innovation (or perceived innovation), and there are some other niche ways to compete, but we will focus on these three.

With regard to price, I have already laid out the basis as to why the US cannot compete on price – labor costs, associated labor costs, and compliance costs are just too outrageously expensive. The only positive price/cost factor that exists is that there is a distance benefit that exists – it is expensive to ship product long distances. Small, light products are obviously cheaper to ship than big, heavy items. But, in general, the shipping costs do not overcome the labor costs.

With regard to service, the distance issue really is a benefit. A good local company can exceed the service that a foreign corporation can provide. Modern technology, local representatives, etc., are eroding that ability. And significant pricing advantages generally outweigh the service issues.

With regard to quality, there are several issues that are making the US uncompetitive. First, the ethic of quality simply does not exist in the US. Workers do not buy in to the need to produce quality product. Second, they skills of US workers are falling behind their world-wide competition. The education system is lagging, and the wrong skills are being studied, and so workers with the skills to produce high-quality products are hard to come by. And also, US consumers do not generally place a high value on quality – they want cheap. High quality comes at a cost. Make no mistake about it.

So, given all of that, how does the corporation compete? It can compete on service, but on quality and price it is in trouble. And the ability to compete on service is being daily eroded.

My company competes on quality and service, and not on price. However, I am being continuously squeezed on price and service. How long I can manage to keep the foreign completion away remains to be seen.

In Sum

So business faces: the highest tax rates in the world, the prospect of significant tax increases, the highest labor costs in the world, the highest compliance costs in the world, and has a workforce whose skill base has eroded over the last few decades. Given that, is it really short-sighted that corporations are abandoning ship and are moving offshore? Really?

If you owned a business, and faced these challenges, and looked at a possible return of under 35% of profits earned, would you stay in business considering the risks? Would you try to move your business to a more favourable locale? I face that decision every day, and every day I get closer to calling it a day and closing up shop.

If the Democrats manage to get the dividend tax rate raised to the levels being discussed, mark my words – you will see an exodus of business the likes of which have never before been seen. It will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

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AWD
AWD
September 25, 2012 9:39 pm

Lipoh’s short stories are never short.

You forgot to mention two other reasons:

Lawyers and lawsuits, and unions

In Asia, where most of our jobs have gone, they don’t allow unions, for obvious reasons. Unions are literally killing this country, especially in the public sector. Unfunded pensions for lazy shitheads total about $1 trillion, which taxpayers/Bernake will have to cough up sooner or later, so union losers can make millions while retiring at 50.

They also don’t allow lawsuits. Businesses don’t have to worry about lawsuits if they ship production overseas. They don’t have to worry about some fat slob falling at work and suing the company into bankruptcy. The U.S. has more lawyers by far than any other country in the world. Frivolous lawsuits cost businesses hundreds of billions a year. Our tort system will never change either, until the last business closes in the U.S., they own the democrats, as do the unions. Game over, China and Japan already won.

Dave Doe
Dave Doe
September 25, 2012 9:56 pm

Once one company in a competitive segment offshores and can re-import the good to the US (without tarriff) a domestic producer must either do the same or go out of business.

Good example was Black and Decker who used to make everything here. The Bosch, a German Firm, bought SKILL an old American Brand. They offshored everything and could sell a tool at Walmart for less than Black and Decker’s cost to produce here. B&D could either offshore or go out of business. Nice choice huh.

A lot of this stuff has to do with multinational corps playing the “free trade” and WTO rules to their advantage and the US just bends over and takes it up the …..

Foreign Corps look at the US Market as a place to exploit for profit because they could never do it in their own markets which they vigorously protect.

Given Fair Competition (a navie and almost impossible proposition today) American workers and firms can compete fine. We may be fucked up – but they are even more fucked up.

GJH
GJH
September 25, 2012 9:57 pm

AWD – You want to live in a country like that, where labor has no right to organize so that it can counterbalance corporate power, and where there is no liability for corporate abuse?

A middle path must be the answer.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 25, 2012 10:00 pm

“Interestingly, one of the benefits of incorparation s that I can walk away at any time, pulling my capital. Unincorporated business owners are often liable for any debts associated wih the business, and so walking away can be very difficult”. – llpoh

Now THAT is just fucking despicable.

The champion of business ethics has just pulled his panties down.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 10:10 pm

CrazyIvan – the truth is despicable? Without protection of the corporate veil, people would not hire folks, would be unable to take the massive risk involved in owning a business, in taking on creditors, etc.

For instance, right now people owe me 7 figures worth of debt. If they suddenly fall over and do not pay me, the biusiness is screwed. The business owes employees, creditors, etc. So if the corporate veil did not exist, I would suddenly take a 7 figure hit personally. R-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

Crazy Ivan – seriously, you are clueless. You have no idea what drives a business, and why the laws exist as they do. The laws provide some incentive – not a lot, but some – for people to go into business. Business people risk the capital they put into the business – which is substantial and more than enough. To expect them to risk everything they own personally – house, car, whatever – as well is shear lunacy. But then you are Crazy, aren’t you.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 10:19 pm

Skil produces most of its tools in China – it is owned by a German company but the tools are Chineses, for the most part.

One of the reasons that large corps go overseas is this: they create subsidiary companies overseas. Those companies build a powertool for a $70 cost, and sell it to the parent company for $100. The $30 profit remains overseas, where it attracts low tax rate, and the money stays overseas, as to bring it back would incur tax. The parent company sells the tool for $110 locally, for a $10 profit. For US tax purposes it pays tax on the $10, but on its group/international financial accounts it reports a profit of $40. So the tax rate it pays looks real low – it pays $4 tax on $40 profit. It is a transfer pricing issue. It is also one of the reasons that the claim that US corporation pay realy low tax is not entirely correct – they pay US tax on the US portion of the earnings, but not on the entire corporate earnings.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 10:21 pm

AWD – for sure you are correct. There are fewer laws in many overseas locations, and fewer regs. Fewer laws/fewer regs = much less risk of being sued. And the unions are doing their best to kill off businesses.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 25, 2012 10:26 pm

LLPOH,

“To expect them to risk everything they own personally – house, car, whatever – as well is shear lunacy. But then you are Crazy, aren’t you”

I see nothing wrong with betting the farm. But, then again, I don’t have other people’s money to bet with.

I guess that this whole personal responsibility thing must be sliding in popularity

Dave Doe
Dave Doe
September 25, 2012 10:27 pm

LLPOH all true – except a lot more stuff is still sold in the US than anywhere overseas on a dollar adjusted volume.

Solution in my mind is one low flat corp rate for all (including S Corps and LLCs) to include expatriated profits. We also need reciprocity in tarriffs and trade restrictions. Implement US Tarrifs based on trade deficit and currency manipulation ratio.

Chronic Agitator
Chronic Agitator
September 25, 2012 10:39 pm

The are various types of corporations: C-Corp, S-corp, and LLc. C-corps get taxed directly. S-corps and LLCs each pass the earnings to the owners/shareholder/partners in slightly different fashions but the SubS and LLCs pay no income taxes directly. Each type of incorporation has advantages and disadvantages. One disadvantage for some S and LLC is a limited number of share holders. An attorney or an accountant can better advise business owners as to which type entity they should be. I have one S-corp and several LLCs. None of my companies have ever paid income taxes—the profits, if any, are passed to me and any partner/shareholders. If all earnings are not paid out it is call retained earnings which can be used as operating capital but the retained earnings are taxed at the owners’ rates. All manner of corporations pay a multitude of other taxes. With taxes and employee issues and all the work associated with business it is a wonder anyone chooses to own one. —I hope I got this all straight.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 10:39 pm

Dave – I am all for a low corp tax rate. In fact, I am all for abolishing it entirely. Money would flow into the US by the trillions (currently $4 trillion of profits perched offshore). Replace all of it with revised a flat personal tax/consumption tax, no deductions, etc. It would take away all of the incentive to game the system. Jobs would have a chance to flourish.

Crazy – It has nothing to do with personal responsibility. The laws and structures were set up to give incentive for people to invest in business. Without the protections offered, investment would slump. People are loathe to risk everything they have on propositions that have a 95% failure rate in the first five years. Without the corporate veil, anyone entiring business would have a 95% chance of loosing everything they own within 5 years. No one would take that bet. At least by limiting the loss to the amount they decide to invest, people take the gamble with a known sum. Say I have $1 million. I want to start a business, and know the odds of success are small. I decide to invest half in a business, and kow that 19 times out of 20 I will lose my money, but 1 time out of twenty I will make $10 million. I may take that bet. But I will not take that bet if I now 19 times out of 20 I will lose everything I have.

Someone above asked about business failure rate – it is generally assumed that more than 90% of new businesses fail within 5 years, with the loss of all of the owners investment.

Seriously, CI, you would take us back to the days of serfs and slaves. Only the very wealthy would be in business as no one else could take the chance. Although current laws and policies are taking us there, anyway.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 10:41 pm

Thanks CA – you are more knowledgeable than me on that stuff, I am sure. I am only familiar with my type of corporation, which seems to be a C Corp.

Dave Doe
Dave Doe
September 25, 2012 10:56 pm

CA – Thanks for the info. I’m arguing that S Sub Corps and LLCs have their profits taxed at a flat rate and not passed through to the shareholders personal income taxes. Treat everyone the same.
Stop allowing gaming of the system.

Both S Corps and LLCs have disadvantages relative to shielding the owners (shareholders) from liability for corporate debt espeically if closely held (few shareholders). Main adavtage is avoidance of double taxation to owners (the fate of C Corps shareholders).

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 25, 2012 11:03 pm

LLPOH,

As I promised in an earlier thread to try to take your comments as viable thoughts, I crazyivan, have failed again.

Chronic Agitator
Chronic Agitator
September 25, 2012 11:04 pm

llpoh,
Have a talk with your legal advisors…there may be a good reason to make an election to go from C-corp to S-corp. I have gained much and enjoyed your recent discussion pertaining to business matters. You have brought to light the need to educate non-business owners in the ways of capitalism and enterprise operations. Thank you

Chronic Agitator
Chronic Agitator
September 25, 2012 11:06 pm

Thanks CA. Will do. Thanks for the kind words.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 11:14 pm

that was me above. Damn wordpress.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 25, 2012 11:17 pm

And above that too, me thinks.

Chronic Agitator
Chronic Agitator
September 25, 2012 11:18 pm

Dave Doe says:

CA – Thanks for the info. I’m arguing that S Sub Corps and LLCs have their profits taxed at a flat rate and not passed through to the shareholders personal income taxes. Treat everyone the same.
Stop allowing gaming of the system. End Quote.

I wish I knew how to game the system. When earnings are passed to the SubS /LLC shareholders those earnings are taxed at an equal or higher rate than regular C-corps pay—If the shareholder is in a high tax bracket.

Yes, Lenders almost always require personal guarantees from all SubS and LLC shareholders and their spouses so it is nearly impossible to shield your personal fortunes from creditors.
Thank you for contributing.

llpoh
llpoh
September 25, 2012 11:24 pm

CA – I do not personally guarantee business debts other than via the business equity. We have a perfect payment record. If other businesses wan cash instead of terms, we do that. But we give no personal guarantees. That time is past. So C Corp it is for me, I guess.

Novista
Novista
September 26, 2012 10:07 am

llpoh

You are doing yeoman service in the cause. Never mind the STMs and confirmation bias.

I will assume your big/small business ratios are more … now. My information is a little out of date, from William C. Dunkelberg, Chief Economist. National Federation of Independent Business.

[snips]

“In 2000, for example, startups created 3,099,639 jobs. By 2005, the surviving firms had a total employment of 2,412,410, or about 78 percent of the number of jobs that existed when these firms were born.”

“From 1977 to 2005, existing companies were net job destroyers, losing 1 million net jobs per year. In contrast, new businesses in their first year added an average of 3 million jobs annually.”

“”There are only 6 million employer firms, 90 percent with fewer than 20 employees. These are the job creators … ” The Cliff Notes interpretations for astute commenters like crazyivan and others who revile the eeeeevil corporations: 5.4 million smaller business v. 600 thousand bigger outfits, including the multinationals and vampire squidlings like Morgan Stanley, in trouble in 2008, with 10,000 employes in the U.S.

“GE employs about 150,000 people in the U.S. [2010]”

Long story short, Big Biznizz is =not= as hot as most people think, especially those afflicted with chemical poisoning from a past life experience. Yes, crazyian, the one who has not failed again is repeating a whole lifetime the same way. There’s no again there.

Dave Doe

Currency manipulation? ??? ???!! PKB. Perhaps only the British were better at it, what with going off the gold standard to fund their WW1 of choice and then demanding to go back on the gold standard at the prewar value of the pound, with some inflationary assistance by the U.S. Except it turned out to be a gold-exchange standard. And that fell in a heap anyway.

Meanwhile, the FRS was aiding and abetting during WW1, with their elastic money. And then there was the Liberty Bond issue which caused the default of 1933. The ‘bank holiday’ was only a ruse because the government could not pay off those bonds. And from $20.47/oz of gold, FDR set the new official value at $35. Manipulate much? Then there was Tricky Dick to put the final nail in the barbarous relic formerly known as gold’s coffin, give us the petrodollar in collusions with King Faisal, continue with the FRS, a little inflation is good for the soul through QEterninity — and the U.S. has the audacity to call other countries currency manipulators?

And then there is ‘ trade restrictions’ oh yea verily. Hoover will kiss you on the other side of the white light. Never mind that Smoot-Hawley was a fucking disaster. It didn’t work then and surely will not work in the current environment of globalization fuckedness.

Next, you’ll be calling for “free coinage of silver” … “Mankind will not be crucified on a cross of gold.”

Which reminds me of another FDR manipulation, fucking with the overmarket buying of silver from U.S. miners, which indirectly led to the crash of the Chinese economy which was based on silver and led to the communist takeover. Manipulation and unintended consequences.

Are you raising Black Swans?

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist
September 26, 2012 10:47 am

Consumption tax > flat tax

Flat tax really has too many issues that a consumption tax rather neatly fixes.

I am for removing both personal and corporate taxes if it means moving to a consumption tax.

TeresaE
TeresaE
September 26, 2012 11:28 am

Nicely done Llpoh!

Only one thing I would add to your attempting to shed light on the small business, here are a few facts for you.

1. Small biz that had EXISTING debts in 2008/2009 saw their friendly bankers yank performing notes, left and right. In addition to making the owners cash out personal assets to save their businesses, they also made them sign covenants which put 100% of their personal assets on the line going forward. Many, because they had no other choice except to walk away, did so. The next round of bank yanking notes (starting right after the election is my guess) is going to wipe out another few hundred thousands businesses – and the hundreds of thousands assorted jobs.

2. As a S Corp, you now have to pay unemployment taxes and workers comp (for us, about 15% of the policy) on the owners health insurance every year. S Corps are NOT allowed to deduct health insurance for the owner and then they PAY tax on it. The owner can deduct the cost of their policy IF it is greater than 10% of their income.

When you speak of the little guy looking into offshoring, you are right, it is a survival issue, not a moral one.

BUT, when the UAW and the Big 3, and Walmart, intentionally offshored their suppliers, they most certainly traded future viability for bigger profits today. They fired their best customers and now wonder where they all went. Shouldn’t take a genius.

Of course, Wally has the rest licked, by bankrupting their suppliers they created more customers – just look at their SNAP sales.

Better call Saul!
Better call Saul!
September 27, 2012 6:37 pm

Whenever I hear about moving business offshore, I think of two things: Breaking Bad, and Lawyers in Panama who specialize in secret business operations.