LLPOH – What I Require of Employees – Young and Old

This is a follow-up to many of the points the Admin is making about society at large, and specifically to his recent article on education. One of the things I see is that the young have had their expectations raised re their careers. An ever increasing number of young people are going to college. Many of these college-educated young-people are modestly talented, and many receive very poor college educations indeed. But they nevertheless expect that they will enter the ranks of white collar professionals and managers. Life does not work that way.

The nature of my business is such that these modestly skilled and educated young people could succeed in work at my business, and could make a reasonable living.

But it is unlikely that they would ever come to work for me – the work does not fit their expectations. It is factory work, at the start, graduating into low-level supervision, then supervision, then lower level management. It is work unlikely to progress beyond that level. But it pays reasonably well through these levels. Factores are often not clean, pristine places to work, and they certainly are not prestigious. Adding to that, these are some of the requirements I have for my employees:

1) all employees of the business must be prepared to do any task that is assigned them. We are a reasonably small business, and at times the situation may dictate that people be assigned outside their normal roles. They may be assigned to clean toilets, or to garden, or to wash vehicles – whatever is needed, dependent on the situation. This means me, too – I have done any and all work that needs to be done.

2) the standard starting time is 7 AM. The standard work week is 40 hours. Overtime is generally available but not not necessarily mandatory. However, at times I do require overtime, and at times it will be manadatory, if conditions warrant it. If this impacts on an employees personal life, that is unfortunate but inescapable (I am not talking about missing a brother’s wedding, but I am talking about if it means missing one of Little Johnny’s Little League games). I may also require the occassional weekend of work, and the occassional evening work. Examples of reasons this may be necessary: say a machine breaks down and it takes a few days to get a part in, and production falls behind. The only option to catch up may be to work evenings and weekends in order to support our customers. Failure to support our customers means we lose work, so failure to do the evenings or weekends means people would lose their jobs, and my business would suffer, and people would become unemployed.

3) I require employees to come to work unless they are ill or for other valid reason. People that miss a lot of single days due to “illness” tend to be viewed with suspicion. Remarkably, those employees are almost always young people, and the most often missed days are the days after payday and Mondays.

4) I require that employees show up on time.

5) I require employees work when being paid to do so.

6) I require that employees follow all established procedures, with respect to production controls, quality systems, and most particularly procedures with regard to safety.

7) I require that employees respect other employees, and leave them alone to do their work in peace.

8) I require that employees obey the work instructions of their managers and supervisors.

That about covers everything I require of my employees. In return, I try to ensure they are reasonably well paid, and that they are treated with respect. Employees that do not meet the requirements as listed above generally soon find they are available for work elsewhere.

My experience is this – most young people (and by that I mean from around the age of 25 and younger) will not meet these requirements. They will not come to work regularly, or will be late, or will refuse or attempt to refuse required overtime as it interferes with their planned date or party, or they will inordinately question instructions to the point of refusal, or they will fail to follow procedures as they deem them too restrictive, etc. They also find the work too limiting, not fulfilling enough, and with insufficient advancement opportunities and prestige.

I have a lot of experience in this area. I have hired literally hundreds of young persons ( I guess I am a sucker and feel that people deserve a chance). A very small percentage of young people will meet the business requirements. I understand that Boomers have created a great many problems. But I can assure you, the Boomer generation is not the only generation with extreme issues. The younger generation is full of expectation of fulfilling, enriching, well-paid work, to be done in a liesurely unstructured fashion. I cannot offer such work, and do not know of any by personal experience that can.

I know many may consider some of my conditions of employment overly harsh. But it is the putting of work first that allows the business to survive. There are times that personal sacrifices must be made in order to maintain the health of your business or employer. For me, work has never been easy, and I do not understand the concept that it should be easy. It is not the nature of the world as I see it. I also believe that the attempt to make the world an easy place has lead to impending disaster.

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crazyivan
crazyivan

Admin,

That’ s what I call a slam dunk.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

@llpoh –

I think we are getting our wires crossed here. Up until this job I was required to find my own replacement before calling in sick. This isn’t the norm?

At the hospital I guess it wasn’t mandatory to arrange for your own replacement, but it is definitely part of the culture there so we all did it anyways.

My current job is such that if I miss a day you will see me here on Saturday (or working a full shift on sunday, instead of just a few hours). Obviously I’m not replaceable(can’t call somebody in), but some foresight on my part means that I can overcome this stuff pretty easily.

I guess I never realized that your employees might not be responsible for arranging for their own replacement.

crazyivan
crazyivan

“My son’s friends (late 20s, early 30s), were raised by mostly union parents. Out of about 10 boys that he has known for the past 12 years, only 1 (other than my son) has held a job more than a couple years.”TeresaE

The key here is how long was it between jobs for these 8 boys?

card802
card802

Llpoh,

59 replies so far. Pretty good.

I used to show my employes what 20 minutes of wasted time cost the company as well. Took my personal time to provide multiple ideas on how they can save time rather than waste time. Multiplied by the entire crew it would have been a very nice end of the year bonus for each of them. But they pissed it away during the year. Fuck em.

I’ve tried sharing profit, too much bitching by the lazy ones.
I’ve tried 100% company funded IRA’s, with the threat of 10% penalties and taxes if anyone removed their (my) money early, took one employee to pull his (my) money out and it was a stampede.
I’m done trying to help those that refuse help.

An owner can only do so much, if they don’t care, why the hell should I?
Five more years, that’s all I need…….

llpoh
llpoh

Not wishing to start a major conversation with CI, my observations are that people that stay in one job for a long period of time are very much more financially successful personally than those that change jobs, even if there is no time lost between the jobs. Continuity of employment gives security to invest and save. The unfortuante thing is that the modern world often puts the decision as to staying in one job for a long time outside of the employees control. This will have a very detrimental effect to people over time. I am not suggesting that there should be jobs for life – quite the contrary. But I have a lot of long term employees, and hope they can be kept in employment for as long as they wish to work. A businesses ability to survive dictates how long employees can be kept on, and it is more and more difficult to survive all the time.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

“TPC – I am sure you are a fine employee. Be assured that most folks are not. TBP would be a place where responsible folks congregate, so do not think folks around here are the norm. plus, funny thing, employees have the same attitude as teachers – they ALL think they do a great job, and the bads ones are someone else.”

My experience has unfortunately been limited to mostly rural environments. Even in my current place of employ, ALL of us are farmers, with the exception of the bag boys on the line, and they rotate through so fast I can’t even learn names.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

llpoh fixin to stomp on Admin and Stucky

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341bf68b53ef013484bc3d68970c-800wi

llpoh
llpoh

Card – no good deed goes unpunished. We used to provide quite substantial bonuses. But the bitching about it was unbelievable – I deserve more (what the fuck??? It is a BONUS!)), I deserve more than him (he has been here 20 years, you 1), why isn’t it as much as last year, I was counting on more (sales were down 20%, so bonuses are down), etc. etc. etc. So we have largely cut out bonuses and give everyone a couple hundred dollars in gift cards. Unless the are really performing poorly, in which case they do not even get that (you should hear them scream. It makes for a good object lesson.)

The fact is, you cannot please them. If you give bonuses, it tells them you are doing well, whether or not you are, and they want more. If you do not give bonuses because of the angst it causes you, they think you are greedy. You simply cannot win.

And the thing that people do not understand is the way employees behave if they are ever told “no”. “Boss, I need 4 months paid vacation to go to my sister’s wedding in France, and I want to see Europe while I am there”. “No”. “why, you lousy, stingy, mean bastard! A good boss would let me go and would pay me!”. Etc. And I kid not about this. Some of the requests I have had make thiis example look minor in nature.

I have been asked to go guarantor on a home mortgage, for instance. Bwahahahahahaha! The person quit in a snit when I said “no”. Damn, that would have been a good risk for me, don’t you think.

llpoh
llpoh

My experience is that farmers make very poor employees indeed for manufacturers. They are accustomed to working outside – I cannot provide that. They are accustomed to managing their own time – I cannot provide that. They miss work because Ol’ Bessie is having a calf, or it is hay season, or whatever – I cannot accomodate that. They are hard workers, but they are ill-suited to manufacturing. In my experience.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

We are in the business (Direct Fed Microbials….its like probiotics for livestock) and we would be poor suppliers indeed if we didn’t know what the hell we are talking about.

“They are accustomed to managing their own time – I cannot provide that”

Technically, farmer time is managed for them. By the animals. By the weather. By the market. Etc etc etc

Still, different strokes. In our area, being a farm kid is a borderline guaranteed hire. Because you are statistically more likely to stay at the job longer than just a few months.

crazyivan
crazyivan

Not wishing to start a major conversation with CI,….

THANK GOD.

On the other hand, I’ve got nothing better to do.

As someone pointed out in an earlier post, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

I think that it is VERY important to consider the “time between jobs”.

I don’t think that there were more than two or three stupid things you said in your above discourse.

Truly, we agree (or at least I agree with you) on 70% of what you say as a plant manager.

Actually that may be more in the 97% range but I didn’t want to start out too high. This is limited to plant manager speak though.

“… my observations are that people that stay in one job for a long period of time are very much more financially successful personally than those that change jobs, even if there is no time lost between the jobs.”

Yep. I think you are correct on that one too.

And I have always thought that the ability to get a new job outweighs the ability to stay with one job.

crazyivan
crazyivan

Fuck…

I just saw the time stamp for what I JUST said was yesterday.

Back off SSS, I know your games.

crazyivan
crazyivan

It is Tuesday, right?

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

Careful ivan, your crazy is showing.

Kepi
Kepi

For those of you saying that $50k isn’t good money depending on where you’re living. With relatively few exceptions (those being megacities, NYC, LA, Boston and SF just because their surrounding suburbs are so expensive) you can get a job for $50k in one area and move out just past the suburbs (usually only 30 minutes outside of the city) and come out with a pretty decent lifestyle, not lavish, but certainly not spartan.

Your supersprawl areas make that impossible because driving 3 hours a day removes any benefit you’d gain by moving out of area a little bit.

And yes, you can have great variance on what $50k means, but not so much so (aside from the mega city example) that you wind up with it being utterly dwindled. For instance the difference between where I live and where my parents do (3 hours away) is significant, but the difference isn’t such that I’m looking for work out there. I’d save a bunch on housing, but I’d be spending more on everything else.

Colma Rising
Colma Rising

“… (usually only 30 minutes outside of the city) and come out with a pretty decent lifestyle, not lavish, but certainly not spartan.”

-Kepi

Nope.

50K…. I meant Not so good AROUND SF. In SF? Ohhhhh Heeeeeeelllls NO!!!! Not without welfare assistance and/or roomates….

BUT, I’ll give you, and llpoh this:

50k plus benefits changes the story. My mistake. You could scrape out a good living.

I often forget to account for that. If your significant other pulled down the same and you didn’t blow your money on stupid shit like cars, booze, clothes and didn’t have critters you’d be fine in the immediate non-ghetto ‘burbs….

With critters?

That would change quick…. but again, the benefits would remove a heavy cost burden.

Nyyyaaaaah.

Kepi
Kepi

Yeah, I always presumed we were talking benefits. I’ve never encountered a job offering $50k that didn’t come with some sort of benefits package. And noticed I said that SF was one of the unaffordable areas because the surrounding area was just so pointlessly expensive.

TeresaE
TeresaE

@TPC working while sick.

My dad dislocated two discs in his back when he was a local route auto parts salesmen. He left the house at 5:45 every morning and did not return home until 6-7 pm. His pay was 75% commission and he paid 100% of his gas & maintenance on his car. He worked for a year before going to the doc. After the doc he was in traction every night (drunk on Pabst, stoned on some horribly strong pain pills, a sling under his chin and the rope hanging from the ceiling with a paint can on the other end) for nearly 6 months.

Big shoes to fill.

As for me working, these are my feelings:

1. If it is a contagious disease, you have infected your co-workers before you even knew you were sick. The whole “stay home cause you make everybody else sick” doesn’t hold water once you learn about the gestation period of disease. MOST communicable diseases are the most catching BEFORE you have symptoms. What good is staying home at that point?

2. I’ve been in highly commissioned jobs for decades. No work equals no pay. In some companies, no work meant your co-workers could steal your clients/sales, so taking a day off meant future paycuts too. Hell, I even closed two deals on my honeymoon. Reality.

3. My determination for missing work is easy. Can I get through my shower, hair, makeup and drive? If I can without passing out, or hurling, I should go to work. If I know I’m so out of it I can’t even think straight, I don’t. VERY few illnesses have ever been that severe. Plus, I suffered with strep and kidney problems for over 20 years (not anymore, yeah!), and if I thought I should stay home everytime I ran a fever of 101, I would have been fired from multiple jobs. I was raised to “buck it up.” So, that is what I do.

As a business owner, you will be hard pressed to have staff that you can trust while you are out sick. I know that I worked a ten hour day the day I went into labor with my daughter. Two days later, both myself and my newborn were in the office as payroll had to be finished. My daughter went to work with me (and trust me, my office is NOT a good spot for babies, but, whatcha’ gonna do?) for her first few months of life. (I did not work full time office hours though, I worked as much as I could everyday – determined by baby – then came back and pull nights if needed).

People look at Llpoh and my hub and all they see is the end result of killing themselves for decades. My hub couldn’t take vacations (still can’t easily), nor be sick, nor save money, nor drive a decent car, nor have a big house, while he was building his biz. Nobody sees that though. All they see is his annual two days off to go fishing.

Crazyivan, bwaaahaaaa, good one! These boys work when mommy & daddy cut off the free shit, and not a moment before. So, they have held many jobs – until they quit without notice, or were shitcanned for being whiny little bitches – my best estimate would be less than 50% of the time employed.

I’ve worked many jobs, more than the “norm.” I’ve never been fired and with the exception of the two union gigs I worked I’ve always left on great terms. I count many of my former bosses as my friends. But I know (from being management, owner and a head hunter/HR bitch) that most “job-hoppers” can’t say the same.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

I’ve had very very few jobs.

2 years hardscaping and building fence. Had to quit because I was progressing in my studies and couldn’t work the hours they needed anymore. Owner was pissed off at me.

1 year working in a lumberyard. Quit for a higher paying, “more professional” job at a hospital. My boss(s) were pissed off at me. “What happened to being happy working here?” I felt so bad, I actually gave him my hiring papers including pay and benefits.

He asked me if the hospital was still hiring lol

4.5 years at the hospital as a nights EKG tech/monitor tech. Had to leave for a variety of issues, most noticeably stepping up professionally. My boss shook my hand, told me he was proud of me, and that the next time he saw me I better be in a suit.

I still teach at the school, and volunteer at the contract lab I worked at, so I guess I technically never quit those jobs.

Oh, and this one. I’ve only been here 6 months. The guy who wanted to fire me at first has since came around and decided he loves me to death. Probably the shared political views (thanks TBP!) Anyhoo, unless the other offer was obscene, I aim to be here no less than 3 years, probably 5-6.

I have NOT worked many jobs, definitely WAY under the norm. I guess my perceptions are completely skewed based on my own personal experience. I’ve had to run a crew (fencing), a classroom, a tour, and train newbies, but that puts me at “foreman” level and not at “boss” level.

Ugh, I guess I’ll need to understand how to deal with laziness in the workplace then. WHY CAN’T THEY JUST WORK HARD AND DO SHIT CORRECTLY?

@TeresaE –

“If I know I’m so out of it I can’t even think straight, I don’t. VERY few illnesses have ever been that severe.”

I don’t know what my problem is, but once a year (damn near like clockwork) I get laid low by some massive flu thingy that devastates me for a few days. I normally only miss one day because of it, and if it hits on the weekend I can sometimes miss zero.

Strange, no? Its been that way almost my whole life.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

“Owner was pissed off at me.”

Clarification: This guy took it personally that I was leaving. I guess he figured I would work for $8/hr for the rest of my life laying brick and building fence for him.

MuckAbout

Fine article.. Truth after truth. Left one thing out..

All my working life, from starting out as a lowly electronics technician in the Navy through retirement from being the Optics Section Head of a missile range, I had a blast at whatever I did. When I was sufficiently incompetent, I got kicked into low management. My secret there was, after I figured out which hand to use to wipe my butt, to always find the most competent, hungry and ambitious troop that worked for me. I emphasized competent…

Then I’d get him half in the bag and ask him how he’s like my job! Well, now what the Hell is he going to say, “No!”????? Of course, he’d say yes in a flash. Then, when we both sobered up, I’d teach him everything I knew about managing people, what my job was (so when I went on vacation I could look forward to coming back not to a burning bag of shit but a smoothly functioning organization) and then – regular as clockwork, about two years from go, I’d get a weepy call from my boss saying they were in deep caca in Timbucktoofaraway and who could they get to go fix it..

Guess what? He’d say, after I volunteered to give it a go, “But who can we get to replace you out there?” All I’d have to do is say, “Him!” pre-trained and raring to go..

Then, I’d wrangle a raise and a promotion and go fix it, eventually repeating the same trick so I’d
I’d be prepared to do it again when the phone rang.. I did that for 20 years with RCA and went back to college for the first degree.. Then I just went to work for who paid the highest in the most interesting locations with the best challenges anywhere on the world from then on.. what a freeking blast.. Almost every minute..

It’s a shame that “feeling good” and “satisfied” and “happy” have come to dominate the working sphere. It ain’t always so, Joe and you better get used to it. (I have a grandson who got an “Art” degree from the best place to get it – $100,000 worth. 5 years later, he’s still working for Starbucks. Such a pity..

MA

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist

I wish this place had a forum component attached to it, if anything just so we could sticky articles/advice from long term contributors.

In the case of MA, some of his investing advice would be nice. I doubt I’d be able to act on it, but its always good to learn more.

MuckAbout

@TPC: I’m working on it – slowly. Now that I’m done with chemo for a minimum of a month I will attempt to figure out how to post the MRO charts here..

To do so, I have to export them to a web site (like photobucket or the like) so it has a web presence that I can use to get Fucking Word Press to accept for an illustration. Pain in the ass.

FSO went to the same thing and I can no longer directly upload images to them either. Makes it twice as much work to post images/.jpg stuff, and I lose patience with it all..

MA

Llpoh
Llpoh

Teresa and Muck do some truth telling. Damn fine work.

We can lead them to water. They have to do their own drinking of it.

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