As a diversion from all the government shutdown lunacy, consider a very common home upgrade in America – full window replacement.
We’re putting in new windows. Our home is about 15 years old and the original windows are the typical lousy builder’s grade from that period. Many have since cracked or have condensation between the panes and the manufacturer is out of business so no replacements under warranty. I know in the summer we’re losing money on cooling costs and in the winter, there’s a ton of money going out the windows – literally. I can feel and hear wind whistling through some of the windows when it’s real windy and at night I can feel the draft. That being said, for such a large undertaking like a full window replacement, you’ve gotta run the numbers, right?
ROI on Window Replacement
The reality is that even though the windows are terrible and new windows would be much more efficient, I will never make my money back on this “investment”. Let’s be honest. Most people want new stuff and justify it to themselves by claiming they’re saving all this money on energy. Buying a new Tesla? You’ll never break even if you drive it for 100 years vs just buying a small, cheap fuel-efficient conventional vehicle. Putting solar panels on your roof in the Northeast? Doubt it. We have a family member that paid thousands of dollars to convert their house from electric to gas – and they’re moving within a couple years. Horrible, total waste of money.
So, let me show you my assumptions and calculated ROI (return on investment) and NPV (net present value) – both are negative.
…Continue Reading what a Horrible Investment New Windows Are.
If you can not even install a window you prolly pay people like me to install your brake pads and rotors. I would ask you to turn in your man card but you never had one.
Window installation is not difficult. You had 22 to learn on. Pick one that is on the first floor, easily reachable and where the ‘oops’ won’t show. Ditto for number 2, etc. By the time you get to the places where they are often seen by neighbors, etc, you will be a pro. Then ‘yard sale’ the used ones to your neighbors who probably have the same windows if you are in a development, and the same problems. As you found out, guarantees either by their manufacturer or the contractor mean little in this changing world. Both may not exist in a few years and certainly not 20.
You paid someone a nice wage, plus profit, to do what you could have done with less than $1,000 in new tools and a dozen weekends. Odds are very good that the windows cost less than $200 each and the rest was profit for the contractor.
How do I know? I used to install things like this for Handyman. I built 2 – 2,400+ sf homes for myself and was in designing/estimating/project management for a home builder when I retired.
How will you fix/replace a window when you have to, if you do not learn when you can make mistakes and not suffer? A house is not brain surgery. People have been building their own for many thousands of years.
Windows are not something I want to screw around with. I know of multiple people who used the cheapest quote/small-time contractors (who obviously have at least put some windows in before) and ended up with water coming into their house during major storms or mold. Could I have done it myself? Sure. Would it have been prudent? If I never had any problems I could pat myself on the back. If I ended up with major water issues later, then I was a jackass.
People pick and choose what they do vs. outsource. I mow my own lawn, we cook our own food and forgo a second salary to stay home with the kids. Some people use lawn services, order out constantly and rely on daycare. People have to make choices that make sense for them. This made sense for me.
Darwin and I live in the same neighborhood. Our houses were built by the same crappy builder. My house is probably two years older than Darwin’s. I had to replace all of my windows two years ago because the seals were breaking and the change in temperatures was cracking the glass in the windows. We went through Lowes and got their higher end windows. The contractor was good. We did have a problem with one window during Hurricane Sandy and the contractor came out, fixed the flashing and solved the problem.
I wasn’t really looking for an ROI. It was just time to replace them. I lucked out because the Obamanistas were still using Keynesian stimulus to spur demand and giving $1,500 tax credits for energy efficiency improvements. So you people paid $1,500 towards something I would have done anyway. Thanks.
I am thinking about solar panels, but not to save money. I want to have power if the electrical grid ever goes down. Of course I’d have to fight off my zombie neighbors like Darwin who will want my ice cold beers.
Darwin
Good article. Good analysis.
Makati1 says:
“As you found out, guarantees either by their manufacturer or the contractor mean little in this changing world. Both may not exist in a few years and certainly not 20.”
guarantees are bullshit. dr pangloss said the second you dig a hole for a plant, you have invalidated the builder’s drainage guarantee.
As a new owner of a 1930-vintage condo concerned with our building’s operating costs, and as a Peak Oil believer and one dedicated to reducing my energy consumption, I take a lot of interest in weatherization of dwellings and have attended a few classes and workshops on weatherizing older dwellings, which were built when coal cost $4 a ton and usually are very poorly insulated.
One of the first things these classes teach you is that replacing your windows is usually a waste of money and does very little to insulate your house or reduce your utility bills. You see, a pane of glass has insulation value of only R1. A double-pane window has a value of only R2. Worse, the insulating value of the window relies on the airtight seal between the panes never being breached. If that seal is breached even a little, which happens easily, especially with cheaper, poorly-made windows, you lose whatever advantage the window had and you also get condensation between the two panes. My windows will have to be repaired at great cost because a fire in the building breached the seals, and there is heavy condensation between the panes, which makes the windows look filthy.
It really breaks my heart to see people in my neighborhood, which is stuffed with really beautiful buildings of architectural significance built between 1920 and 1935, replace exquisite leaded-glass windows and multi-pane French doors with ugly dual-pane windows in the belief they will save money on their heat bills. They will save SOME money, but not nearly enough to justify the cost of the windows, still less the damage done to the aesthetic of their buildings.
Go for the low-hanging fruit first, and install insulating window shades or drapes instead. It also goes almost without saying that you should caulk and replace cracked panes, and use weatherstripping around exterior doors. Replace your windows only if they are hopelessly damaged and/or dry-rotted. The insulating shades are on tracks and can have an R value as high as R30, which does a lot more for your utility bills, for a lot less money. They come in many attractive styles and colors. If you want to spend more money, indoor wood shutters that can be left open for the sun in the daytime and closed up at night when the building loses the most heat, are even better. Then, with money you save on your heat bill, you can start the process of insulating your interior walls, which is costly and disruptive, but well worth the trouble in the money it saves you over time.
Juan – it’s pretty funny; I asked Lowes and HD for their craftsmanship warranties in writing. They could give me the mfg warranty but not the one they offer for the install. They said they didn’t have anything handy in the store. I didn’t bother pressing it because I decided not to go with them early on. I then asked this regional window company for theirs. He said, “2 years and I’ll repair any problems – it’s right in the quote”. I said I need that ACTUAL contract. I wanted to see exclusions and all the legal crap. He said I was the first person to ever ask him for it. Just protecting myself – stuff happens!
Admin – if solar prices would come down a bit, it’s something I’d love to do someday too. But someone gave my mom a quote recently (they like to prey on older people who don’t do the math that they won’t even be in the home 5 more years) and it was like 25K or something. Would take forever to recoup that. Thanks to china and moore’s law, tech and prices evolve such that maybe it will be cost-effective soon! Good point on using it for power loss though; my generator only gets a few days with the amount of gas I store.
Chicago – in my case, many of the windows have an actual cracked pane and the condensation inside so I’ve been putting off repairing/replacing them until I did a full window replacement. The newer ones I’m getting have Low-E, argon inside, etc., which should be a big improvement over the junk we have now. But you’re right in that even newer ones will probably have some air exchange.
I get Stucky’s point- if you want new windows because yours are ugly & worn out, get them, because they will improve the appearance of your house and save you some money on energy in the deal.
It is more worth your money than a new car that depreciates the day you drive it off the lot, or the tons of “bling” that people waste their money on that ends up in storage lockers or landfills before it is even paid for.
But be careful of major plant expenditures meant just to improve energy use because these really major investments almost never save enough money to come close to offset what you spent.
That could change, though, if energy prices were to ramp up steeply in the years ahead. It would depend on how much and how fast. I personally prefer to prepare for the worst because I think we will get it, which is why we in my building are studying heating systems very carefully and thinking about winterizing the building, a major outlay. What if gas triples in the next decade? It surely isn’t worth what it would cost us, given current gas prices, to spend $100,000 having a “geothermal” heating system with a heat exchanger and buried pipes, installed, but in ten years or less, gas could become scarce and expensive enough to more than justify it, and we wouldn’t want to try to have it installed THEN. Likewise with solar panels- not worth it now, but could be lifesafers if energy prices were to change drastically.
Our farmhouse is 100+ years old. The bones of the house are all hardwood. Oak (white and red), poplar, etc.. not a stick of pine in it I can see.
Previous owners upgraded such things as windows and insulation, but the old propane (upgraded from coal… we still have the coal chute) furnace was hemorrhaging propane somewhere. Went through over $1000 in propane in 3 months- no WAY we were using that much! Found a leak in the propane line that the company addressed multiple times without actually fixing it… I think the people who work for (REDACTED) don’t have that job because they turned down the job offer from NASA.
In the end, we bit the bullet and round-filed the old furnace. I tell you the truth, the day that our new furnace went online was a good one- I called up the propane company and said “This is Billy and I live at XXX Main Street. Come get yer shit off my property!” BEST FEELING EVER!!
Upgraded to a high efficiency electric heat pump and AC. We still don’t run the furnace/AC all that much, since the house was built before AC and central heating, so it has thick plaster walls, really big windows for ventilation and faces North, so the porch is always in shade… Now all we need to do is have the fireplace issue addressed and we’re good to hook.
Will we get a return on any of this investment? Probably not. But I don’t care. We’re here to stay, come Hell or high water.
If you want to replace your windows due to draft or to keep the home warmer in the winter, then go for it, but keep in mind you will NEVER get your return on investment on the windows. A decent replacement window will run $200 to $300 per window install not included.
I live in Milwaukee and heat 1700 square feet in a home build in 1908. My heating bill runs around $900 per year or so. I would have to live in my home for the next 300 years for it to pay off. Salesman selling their bullshit of payoff in ten years or are full of it.
Seal the windows in winter with weatherizing caulk around the seams or clear seal plastic. It does the same thing at a fraction of the cost.