RANDROIDS TAKE NOTE

Was Rand Paul a spineless, corrupt douchebag before he was elected to the US Senate or has the republican party done their magic with him.  Maybe it was his trip to the wailing wall… One thing is sure, Rand Paul will never be president and will never accomplish jack shit in the US Senate.  What he has attained, at the price of flushing down the toilet every decent thing he was ever exposed to by his father, is a national platform for six years to be an attention whore.  I’m sure it was worth it.

Rand Paul: I Never Said Snowden Is a Hero; He Should Be Tried

What are Rand’s fanboys going to say about this? It doesn’t get much clearer.In a letter to WSJ, Rand wrote:

Edward Snowden broke the law. There are penalties for breaking the law, and I believe he should be prosecuted. I do not overlook or believe our country should condone people who have access to military secrets to reveal those secrets.

Rand does go on in the remainder of the letter to muddy his view above, but this is typical Rand, trying to take both sides of an issue:

You claim “in essence” I’ve asked for a plea bargain for Mr. Snowden. I’ve made no specific legal judgment other than to say that I do support laws against national security leaks. I have not argued, as you allege, that Mr. Snowden is a hero. I have stated that history will decide.

Further, his leaks that had nothing to do with unconstitutional domestic surveillance may have caused real damage to our national security and relations with other countries.

There are advantages to having Mr. Snowden face trial: We could determine how he breached our security and to what extent and how much information was shared with foreign countries. Ruling out the harsher end of the sentencing spectrum might encourage him to return for trial.

Standing trial would allow a judge to determine whether Mr. Snowden’s law-breaking served a higher purpose and thus sentence him accordingly and also whether some of his actions went too far in endangering our security and aiding our enemies, and also sentence him for that accordingly.

But legally and morally, the actions of the individual lawbreaker must be weighed against the government law-breaking that he went to great lengths to reveal. I do not believe we must give up this much of our liberty for security, nor do I apologize for standing up for the Fourth Amendment, which restricts such frighteningly unlimited power.

Note: The purpose of a trial is not to find out how someone was able to accomplish certain things, it is to determine guilt or innocence. Rand’s statement:

There are advantages to having Mr. Snowden face trial: We could determine how he breached our security and to what extent and how much information was shared with foreign countries.

is idiotic.

Thanks to Bob Wenzel, economicpolicyjournal.com

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Llpoh
Llpoh

People stealing government documents cannot be tried and exonerated other than in a court of law. It really is that simple, and anyone who thinks folks should be allowed to steal government secrets without having to defend their position in a court of law is being naive at best. Trial by media is not an option.

I am not a big Rand Paul fan, but I do not think he is wrong on this one.

Llpoh
Llpoh

In the last quote, please note the word could. Could is different than will be able to – it implies uncertainty. I expect in a trial, or a plea bargain, that information would indeed come out.

Again, I think that people are letting their support of Snowden – which I generally do as well, but I would too like to know what info he took and who he gave it to – cloud their judgement that the nation must be run under law. That the system is corrupt does not mean that we should not strive to have rule of law.

MuckAbout

Give Snowden the Freedom Medal and be done with it. He is – to date – the penultimate whistle-blower and the only thing he has damaged is the view the ex-USA held of itself.

All the pissing and moaning is fake drama. All countries spy on each other and all governments (regardless of color or shape) spy on their citizens. They just don’t get caught at it red handed and with their pants down around their ankles and a bunch of kids standing around laughing at them.

In my humble opinion, Mr. Snowden deserves the very deep gratitude of citizens of the ex-USA for just ripping off the cover of the unconstitutional surveillance that exists (and will continue to exist) in this Country.. The more embarrassing the better..

Fuck the Rule of Law if the law is illegal, unenforceable and unconstitutional.

Just like George Carlin says: Honesty may be the best policy, but it’s important to remember that apparently, by elimination, dishonesty is the second-best policy.

MA

Administrator

Muck

+100

card802
card802

Man must be new around here.

Steve Hogan
Steve Hogan

Man is an Obama supporter and proud of it! Might as well tattoo “moron” on your forehead, pal.

Of course, Man is correct on the Republicans being a false choice. We have no choice electorally-speaking. There is only one party in Washington, and we’re not in it.

At the very least, we should recognize that the elites have us by the short and curlies and choose to withdraw support wherever possible. Do not vote. Barter. Use cash. Take every deduction you can. Prepare yourselves and your families for the difficult times ahead.

While you’re at it, mock and ridicule politicians, lawyers, bankers and lobbyists at every opportunity. They have destroyed this country. The least we can do is to take these fuckers down with us.

Stucky

If Rand Paul said outright that he supports Snowden, then what would the outcome be? He’s be labeled a bigger nut-job than his father.

Politics is a dirty business. NO ONE comes out lilly white clean. Not even Ron Paul or his son.

I have no problem overlooking the few things with which Rand and I disagree. Besides, I don’t think he really meant it.

Administrator

When the entire system is captured by corporate fascists, what do laws mean?

I support Snowden 100%.

I don’t give a fuck what the government laws say about his actions.

I prefer the Declaration of Independence as my law:

“Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Treemagnet
Treemagnet

@man….you sound like my dumbass father-in-law……we’re (mostly) libertarians, remember, the other option? You get a pass cause your new otherwise go sell crazy someplace else.

llpoh
llpoh

People are bestowing sainthood on Snowdon without as yet knowing everything that he took, or who he gave it to.

I for one would like to know those things. That he has not released everything puts a questionmark over his actions. If it was all similar to the NSA info, then I am a big fan. But he is hesitant in releasing the info, and that for me makes me wonder if he took stuff that is indeed sensitive and legal information. I doubt very much he would have been entirely selective in what he sucked up.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird

Being tried in an Administrative Court has nothing to do with innocence. There is no innocent plea in that court. Administrative court determines if the law was broken. If it is determined that one broke the law then one is guilty. If one did not break the law then one is not guilty.

Before we has Administrative courts before 1970 one was tried under common law. In common law as I have been taught the law goes on trial with the one that broke it. If it was determined that the law was broken through no bad intent on the one that broke it then one would be innocent and the law would have a limitation on it’s application.

Snowden said he did what he did due to conscience meaning the law was abused by those who should know better. If he comes back for trial under Administrative Law then he is doomed.

flash
flash

Loopy, it’s apparent beyond measure that the Justice Dept. is one of the most corrupt -being complicit with corruption – institutions this country has ever known.

Even being the obvious dipshit moron that you are , would you , if in Snowden’s shoes , turn yourself over into custody of the US government?

To paraphrase Jefferson, it is the duty of all Americans to oppose unjust laws wherever they find them?

Have you found any …eh Loopy lips?

DC Sunsets

Rand Paul (and his father) were part of the system that is mankind’s antagonist: the state.

It is naive beyond description to think ANY politician represents “reform.”

People who think the system can be changed by joining it, being SUBSUMED by it, must believe fervently in the Easter Bunny.

Carl Watner was right. The ends ARE the means. The political means cannot be employed to solve the viciousness that is political government, which comes out of (as Chairman Mao accurately stated) THE BARREL OF A GUN.

DC Sunsets

Snowden (if he’s the real deal, which is far from certain) is opposed to the state.

Rand Paul, a US Senator, IS part of the state.

Who was daffy enough to think anyone who is PART of the state is “opposed” to the state?

The Fed, every “alphabet soup” government agency, every armed warrior whose paycheck comes directly or indirectly from Uncle Sammy’s Extortionist-Treasury is part of the state.

Liberty vs Power. That’s the only point that matters.

flash
flash

Dc, I’ve cogitated along those lines myself.How could Ron Paul stamp himself with the Repug (statist) brand inasmuch as someone could reform via infiltration the National Socialist Workers Party to become a party of limited government as if that were possibility.

I wonder about the gullibility of the Paulistas sometimes…

llpoh
llpoh

Flash – go fuck yourself. You are putting words into my mouth that were never uttered or written. You fucking piece of shit.

First, I never said he should turn himself over. What I said is that we simply cannot give him a free pass and bypass the legal system. I also said I would like to know what else he had. I am glad a fuckwit like you already knows for sure and certain he did not abscond with anything that he should not have done.

I also believe that laws protecting US secrets are necessary and mandatory. Is your point that a law that is meant to protect US secrets is unjust? Seriously, even someone as mentaly deficient as you must know that is bullshit.

So far, based on what he has released, and only based on that, I would hope that the legal system would give him a pass.

But all of the armchair quarterbacks wanting to give him a medal without knowing exactly what he did are indeed naive. His actions are suspicious – given the overwhelming support he has had so far, whay has he not released everything he took? My take is very simple – he also took things that are seriously sensitive and which he had no business taking, and are things which he should indeed be prosecuted for. That is only a guess, mind you.

But I ask again: Why has he not released everything, if his intent was to inform the people of illegal/un-Constitutional activity?

If he has more info on illegal NSA activities, I hope he releases it immediately.

If he has sensitive US secrets that are indeed national security issues, then he should not release that information. And if he has such, then he needs to be held accountable for that. And his overall motives need to be questioned in that event.

llpoh
llpoh

DC – I applaud that you acknowledge that it is not certain, as yet, that Snowden is the real deal.

I applaud that he has released the info re the NSA. But there is much left to know of the story.

DC Sunsets

Flash, I agree. Does on join the Mafia in order to make it….non-criminal?

Political government is a particular thing.
1. It’s a territorial monopolist; if you attempt to compete with it, you’ll be arrested and caged or killed.
2. It rests on coercion; laws don’t ASK you to do something or refrain from doing it. You are told to OBEY, on pain of being fined, jailed or murdered.
3. It employs some rhetorical support (ordained by God, or constituting “Self Rule,” or revealing the “General Will” or some other high-sounding bullshit).

Political government is NOT what political scientists teach, or what you learned in social studies class.

It is revealed in its entirety by Orwell in “Nineteen Eighty-Four.” Go back and read it, and give up on Santa Claus, the East Bunny and a Free Candy-Crapping Unicorn for everyone.

DC Sunsets

llpoh,

If Snowden is NOT the real deal, I figure Occam’s Razor says he’s part of the NSA/CIA cabal’s management of a larger conspiracy, not that he’s some sort of foreign agent (unless he’s working for Mossad.)

Nothing we are told is the truth. NOTHING.
Everything is a digest of conflicting conspiracies, the blended result of a multitude of sometimes parallel, oftentimes conflicting political groups vying for a bigger share of the loot and more elbow room at the table where the next loot will be divvied up.

Politics is about CRIME. It makes so-called Organized Crime look like a kid’s lemonade stand.

flash
flash

Loppy-First, I never said he should turn himself over. What I said is that we simply cannot give him a free pass and bypass the legal system. I also said I would like to know what else he had. I am glad a fuckwit like you already knows for sure and certain he did not abscond with anything that he should not have done.

Lets assess you position which postulates that he (snowden) not be arrested , but also not be given a free pass,all resting on his compliance with turning back over all the information which the NSA already has.. and this act also negating any risk of snowden himself having made any more “illegal” copies of the original date he stole to begin with, thus he might be exonerated in the justice imbued court under the control of these United States federal government.

And, if it where so that Snowden returned all the data that he had, shall we say illegally attained;copies and all, then what protection from murder would Snowden then be afforded?All that granted under the power of those from which he had stole?

You’re self proclaimed wise-man loopy…you figure it out.

llpoh
llpoh

1) I do not think he should turn himself in, based only on what I know now. It would be foolish – unless he is under risk of assassination. He is very likely to go to jail if he returns. That would be a miscarriage of justice if all that he has done is only what we know now.

2) If he returns to the US, he will be arrested and most likely tried. If the only info he has is what he has so far released I hope he is let go/not convicted. I do not argue against the system of trying someone who has been accused of stealing state secrets. It is a legal matter. I hope that it would provide justice, but it may well not do that – thus my position #1. And #3.

3) If he has anything else other than what he has so far released, I would think it might be prudent to try to bargain that against his freedom – ie try to strike a deal to return the info in exchange for being able to return home and not go to jail. If he has made other copies/etc. the deal would be broken and he gets to go to jail.

I am unprepared to suggest he simply be granted immunity without going through the processs. That is not an option. We are relying on the media for informaton – and they are as disreputable as the politicians and the judicial system, if not more so.

DC Sunsets

Everyone should re-read Orwell’s “Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism.”

It’s free on the Internet. It’s not that long.

Sadly, those who refuse to grasp just how well Orwell encapsulated the essence of politics are typical….some people PREFER TO LIVE IN THE MATRIX.

Actually, MOST people prefer the delusion of the MATRIX to facing the crushing burden of reality, of having all their illusions evaporate and be left in the perpetual fog that is our modern existence.

DC Sunsets

“We are relying on the media for informaton – and they are as disreputable as the politicians and the judicial system, if not more so.”

Ain’t THAT the truth.

Everything we are told is a lie. It’s all Ad Copy meant to get us to think a certain way, to act a certain way.

In totalitarian countries the Elite doesn’t care what people think. They have men with machine guns on every corner and all they care about is what people DO.

In a so-called “democracy” FAR more money and effort goes into controlling what people THINK than goes into selling them soap, handbags and new shoes.

Everything you see and hear is part of a largely coordinated effort to MAINTAIN control of your mind.

How well is it working?

Stucky

“Is your point that a law that is meant to protect US secrets is unjust? Seriously, even someone as mentaly deficient as you must know that is bullshit.” ———- llpoh

Democracy — I know we are not one — but democracy and secrets, well, they just don’t seem to go together.

OK, if pressed, I would admit that there are maybe SOME things that need to be kept secret. But, without looking it up, I believe the USSA classifies hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of documents. This is complete and utter bullshit.

USSA “secrets” are almost never for the benefit of the American sheeple at large. USSA “secrets” are for the elite, the 1%ers, the government itself … to protect THEM, not us. To protect them FROM us.

The gooberment was too stupid to protect their secrets.
The gooberment is too stupid to even know what was taken.
Tough shit. Fuck them. The people win.

Stucky

“Everyone should re-read Orwell’s “Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism.” It’s free on the Internet. It’s not that long.” ————- dc.sunsets

Yup. Three Chapters;
—- Chapter 1 – Ignorance is Strength
—- Chapter 2 – Freedom is Slavery
—- Chapter 3 – War is Peace

You can find it here; —— http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/go-goldstein.html
.
.
.
Also, the three chapters are read via youtube. I just watched the first part (10 minutes). The narrator has a pleasant voice and it’s accompanied with nice video. There are many parts. lol But, it’s nice to play in the background while reading / typing … much better option than having the idiot tube on … plus, you’ll learn something.

Anyway, here is the first part. You can take it from there;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IZG3Pwnrfcc&list=PLCF3C8375E56C9AB8

MuckAbout

Holy poopers! I got my up’s than anyone else on the thread! I don’t know whether to be flattered or feel sorry for all those people who must think I know what I’m talking about!

What I want to know is this; does all those up-thumbs mean I get a higher retirement? Ha…

MA

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