In the wake of the Charleston church shooting a Republican legislator announced plans to introduce a bill to remove the Confederate Flag from public property.
“The growing demand for a resolution to South Carolina’s official attachment to one America’s most notorious symbols highlights the fault-line that exists to this day in a state that has consistently failed to make a clean break with its racist secessionist past. The revived dispute over the Confederate flag that has erupted in the wake of the Charleston shootings is just the sharpest expression of an age-old seeping wound.”
You can read the rest of the article here; http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/20/charleston-shooting-confederate-flag-south-carolina
It seems this issue rises every few years somewhere in the South.
I think this topic has been mentioned in some posts here, but never a thread about it.
Anyway, since we’re sitting in the hospital for several hours some of the conversation drifted towards politics … an extremely volatile event when it takes place with my beloved seester … a raging libtard (I do love her in spite of that) Obama nut-licking liberal. Naturally, she is adamant that the flag is RAAAYCCCISSSSSS (sp?), and must be removed from public buildings. Doing so would help restore racial harmony, she says.
I’m a damn Yankee. I’ve never researched the history of that flag. Frankly, I couldn’t write a 200 word article about it going strictly from memory. But, that doesn’t keep me from having an opinion.
I don’t think it has anything to do with race. I think it’s all about independence from the federal government in Washington DC …. like saying “Fuck you, Feds!”, but only in a nice polite Southern way. The flag doesn’t offend me in the least bit. And strictly in terms of aesthetic appeal … I find it to be a BEAUTIFUL flag.
I could be totally wrong. So, fire away and feel free to ream me a new asshole in the manner befitting a TBP shitfest. I can take it!
My seester also made this point; “It doesn’t matter what YOU think. What matters is how blacks think about it.” (I told you she’s a libtard.) On her particular planet, the opinions of one race (blacks) completely trumps that of another (whites). This makes no sense to me. On the other hand, maybe it’s like the “redskins” issue? Meaning, since “redskin” offends Indians, on what grounds do whites have an objection?
Hey, I have no dog in this fight. Never owned a Confederate Flag … probably never will, as it is not my heritage. Just curious on how folks here see it.
The Civil War started from an issue of States’ Rights (the economic base of the South). Reflection on the morality of the past (Zeitgeist), we know that slavery is !00% wrong, and so was the genocide of the native american indians.
The libtards are just mental cement blocks.
I live in CT.
Stucky…my roots in the Carolinas go back to 1710 when my family came to New Bern,N.C from Bern,Switzerland. The family migrated to South Carolina in around 1810 . Many of my relatives fought in the War For Southern Independence . All of their graves are engraved with the Confederate Flag.So I guess I have a bit of dog in the fight .
The Confederate Battle flag flew over the S.C. capitol dome since 1962 . I have no doubt it was placed there as a middle finger to folks who wanted desegregation
.Many wanted the flag removed from the state house grounds and of course many wanted it to stay right were it had been for almost 40 years However in 2000 a compromise was reached which placed the flag at the Confederate Memorial . Along with this compromise were laws protecting all Confederate monuments etc. The only way the flag can be removed is by I believe a 3/4 majority vote ( it may be 2/3) .
Now I’ve always been taught that a fair compromise is when both parties aren’t happy. Neither side was happy at the outcome . So I think it was fair…In my opinion.
Many will say that the flag is a symbol of hate and oppression. It may be to some but the American Stars and Bars flew over many of the ships that brought slaves to this country. That same flag few over states that profited from the slave trade ( including those in the North.) That flag flew when the Indians were disarmed and slaughtered. That flag I can imagine is a symbol of hate and oppression to a lot of folks too. but no one is calling for the banishment of the Stars and Bars.
I might add that the bible was used as a tool to subjugate people here in the USA but no one is talking about banning the bible .
So let it remain and I guess when enough Yankee’s have moved here taken over my beloved South,they’ll erase our history and cover it up like it never happened .
This is how ‘murica works today.
People are ignorant about facts, but we have to contend with “feelings”
Rather than inform ignorant people about the facts, we poll 1,100 poor folk in the blocks of squalor about how they feel about a flag they know nothing about, except what they are told to feel.
BUCKHED…you made some points. Truth is, any flag at a memorial for fallen soldiers is our respect for those men that have died as a result of Political decisions by the masters in charge. The specific war does not matter and the Confederate flag is NOT a testament for segregation.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. The Ministry of Propoganda and their thought control machine is coming for everyone. A demasculated, passive, subdued populace is a submissive populace.
Some stupid shit happening in “murica today.
First we are told that too many guns kill people, then we are told a flag is helping too many guns kill people and once again, slavery (hate) is what the Confederate flag stands for and slavery was created by the rich white american non democrat.
WASHINGTON — Just days after nine black parishioners were killed in a South Carolina church, President Obama said the legacy of slavery still “casts a long shadow” on American life, and he said that choosing not to say the word “nigger” in public does not eliminate racism from society.
All one needs to do is look for themselves that the first slave traders were black and some of the largest slave owners in “murica, were also black.
Back in the day when a army would defeat the other army the victors would kill all survivors, slavery was looked upon as a form of compassion.
But that wouldn’t fit the narrative now, would it?
Good stuff, Buckhed. Card802, I think 90% of my seester’s political views are based on feewings. Drives me crazy.
Watched this vid in its entirety … although that’s not necessary as it is a collection of Southerners opinions and can be watched randomly.
Based SOLELY on this vid, it seems most blacks associate the flag with slavery and segregation (the racism card) and therefore a source of shame, although there are some blacks who don’t care one way or another …. while most whites see it as a symbolism of heritage and State Rights and therefore a source of pride ………………….. and, apparently, never shall the twain meet, ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltm82BCnh2s&feature=player_detailpage
Fuck these worthless politically correct parasites.I’m so sick and tired of these Damn liberals pissing and moaning about everything including history.These bastards will use anything to further their political agenda. They want a white population stripped of of it’s history and disarmed. Sometimes I think a civil war might be good.Maybe the only thing that will save what’s left of our republic.
I heard Alan Keys talk to a packed audience at South Carolina State University ( a historically black college ) about slavery. He told them to get over it . He told them racism had nothing to do with slavery. He said it was the subjugation of one race over another for profit…that it had been going on for thousands of years . He was without a doubt one of the finest public speakers I’ve ever heard ( I believe he was a Harvard debate champ )
Stucky…check this guy out H K Edgerton…..met him a few times…at Sons of Confederate meetings ( no one wore sheets ) .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InpCdY5K6kE
Take it down. Total no brainer. It’s a thumb in the eye to blacks for no reason. We did it in florida. Issue died instantly. (Jeb! did it, if I remember correctly) Didn’t bother to change any laws, just took it down, and in a week it was forgotten.
I always thought the Star and Stripes was the racist flag ?
Bristling Dixie?
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And, and where did the majority of these rasciss’ live?
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But , raciss being raciss , they will to fly their CSA battle.
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http://www.tidewaternews.com/2014/05/02/black-confederate-activist-speaks-to-urquhart-gillette-camp-1471/
BTW, the flag in question is the CSA battle flag .No one, even the majority of Southerners haven;t a clue that there exists a national CSA flag.
Flags of the Confederate States of America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
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StarfStarfucker
Are you a statist?
Star…we are told that the Confederate Flag is ancient history….take it down . I’ve argued that I’d do it as long as the Civil Rights movement is placed in the dustbin of ancient history ( along with that institution that went away in 1865…Slavery) .
Reparations are right around the corner .
Wip, not a statist. Buck, not a fan of reparations. Not particularly fond of blacks. Just hate to see how easily ginned up people can become over a petty issue. It’s not important, that’s why. And I’m a southerner. On my street, there are two battle flags flying right now. But my street is not the statehouse.
starfcker , do you also advocate taking down the Stars and Stripes..It flew over the pro-slave South for nearly a century before the CSA flag , which only flew 4.5 years?
The is more innocent blood spilled and a civil rights violated under the banner of the Stars and Stripes than could ever be laid at the threshold of the Stars and Bars.
“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world”.
Abraham Lincoln – U.S. Congress, 1847
A little over 10 years later after the South attempted precisely that, Lincoln, when asked, “Why not let the South go in peace”? replied; “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government”? “And, what then will become of my tariff”?
Abraham Lincoln to Virginia Compromise Delegation March 1861
“Sirs, you have no reason to be ashamed of your Confederate dead; see to it they have no reason to be ashamed of you.”
Robert Lewis Dabney, Chaplain for Stonewall Jackson
“[T]he contest is really for empire on the side of the North, and for independence on that of the South, and in this respect we recognize an exact analogy between the North and the Government of George III, and the South and the Thirteen Revolted Provinces. These opinions…are the general opinions of the English nation.”
London Times, November 7, 1861
“The Northern onslaught upon slavery was no more than a piece of specious humbug designed to conceal its desire for economic control of the Southern states.”
Charles Dickens, 1862
The Union government liberates the enemy’s slaves as it would the enemy’s cattle, simply to weaken them in the conflict. The principle is not that a human being cannot justly own another, but that he cannot own him unless he is loyal to the United States.”
London Spectator in reference to the Emancipation Proclamation
“As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty per cent. of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union.”
Major General John B. Gordon, from his book, Causes of the Civil War.
“If you bring these [Confederate] leaders to trial it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion. Lincoln wanted Davis to escape, and he was right. His capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one.”
Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, July 1867 (Foote, The Civil War, Vol. 3, p. 765)
“They (the South) know that it is their import trade that draws from the peoples pockets sixty or seventy millions of dollars per annum, in the shape of duties, to be expended mainly in the North, and in the protection and encouragement of Northern interest. These are the reasons why these people do not wish the South to secede from the union”.
New Orleans Daily Crescent-1861
“The Southern Confederacy will not employ our ships or buy our goods. What is our shipping without it? Literally nothing… it is very clear that the South gains by this process and we lose. No…we must not let the South go”.
Union Democrat Manchester, New Hampshire. 19 February, 1861
“Had the cotton gin of Massachusetts inventor Eli Whitney not come on the scene in the late 1700’s, African slavery in this country was most likely doomed. The antislavery and emancipation feeling in the South was ascendant, but thwarted by profitable slave-trading and hungry cotton mills in New England which gave rise to more plantations in the South, and the perpetuation of slavery. And after years of treating the American South as an agricultural colony, New England set out in 1861 to strip it of political power.”
Bernhard Thuersam- Director Cape Fear Historical Institute NC.
http://www.confederatecolonel.com/resources/quotes/
My neighbors want to fly it in their yards, no problem. It’s a free country. And they do. Makes me grin and shake my head. I don’t get it. But I don’t have to get it.
Well worth the time:
The North’s Southern Cash Cow
On November 4, 1866, Lord Acton wrote to Robert E. Lee,
I saw in State Rights the only availing check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy. . . . Therefore I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization; and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo.
http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2013/June/37/6/magazine/article/12309/
Flash, half the female relatives on mom’s side are into the daughters of the confederacy stuff. When I go to family events, I change from urban slickster to down home cracker in a blink. I like my relatives. I’m on the five year plan to live that life, in the country. I was surprised how little it mattered when Jeb! took the flags down. Noone ever mentioned it again.
starfcker , the defeated don’t talk , but neither do they forget…BTW, nice job copying Alabama’ State flag.
flash….your post above on the flags is very good info, especially the stars and stripes being the racist flag.
Seems like it can mean whatever somebody wants it to. Gonna be tough to keep it in the air when the sheeple are told how to interpret its otherwise ‘as you may’ message. But, I’m a northerner so I don’t have much of a say.
Obama uses n-word to make point on racism
Published: June 22, 2015 1:52 p.m. ET
Greg Robb
President Barack Obama said racism remains part of the nation’s DNA despite significant progress made since the 1950s.
“Racism. We’re not cured of it,” Obama said in a podcast “WTF with Marc Maron” released on Monday.
After a discussion of how Obama came to terms with being a black man in America while in college during the early 1980s, the podcast shifts to the recent space of police brutality and the anger he expressed following the shootings in the historic black church in Charleston last week.
Asked where the nation was in terms of race relations, Obama said that attitudes have changed significantly since the 1950s but the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow endures.
“It is not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That is not the measure of whether racism still exists or not,” Obama said.
“It is not just a matter of overt discrimination,” he added.
White House spokesman Josh Earnest said Obama does not regret using the n-word.
While the president was trying to be provocative by using the word but that the underlying argument was one he has made several times, Earnest said.
“It is understandably notable he used the word, but the argument should be familiar to those who have been listening,” Earnest said at the daily White House briefing.
Obama said efforts to improve the lives of poor black children at an early age is still happening only “spottily.”
“What hasn’t happened is us making a collective commitment” to help the underprivileged, he said.
He called for the American people to decide that “what happens to those kids matters to me.”
When politics gets involved, the question simply gets “all confused,” he added.
Fuck Obama!
In order to eradicate a people it is important to sever their ties to the past and make it impossible for the next generation to establish any meaningful connection to previous generations; eliminate their history, corrupt their youth, denigrate their values, supplant their mores with another set, etc.
As in all cases with the Regime these days, affinity for/revulsion of historical and cultural symbols is based entirely on utility- does it serve or hinder the march of progressive doctrine? Everything follows after that.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/19/world/19TALI.html
More KKK members in Indiana than any other state. Having grown up there, I’m not at all surprised.
The stars and bars will live on in the heart of every freedom minded person in this country. The independent nature and southern spirit are some of the last bastions of Patriotism we have left other than our veterans and service people; These facts will never be watered down by politicos period. Every southern flag in the world could be burned or banished but the fact that one of the bloodiest wars in our history revolves around this and our American Flag is a testament to our fortitude as a people. And if the “epic failure of civility” ever comes to fruition, all the rednecks I know will come out the other side. The stars and bars as well as our National Flag represent who we are, where we come from and mostly our history and traditions as Americans…..these cannot be obliterated as long as we carry them in our heart. GOD BLESS DIXIE AND GOD BLESS AMERICA
I posted this on Clammy’s thread. Sorry for not being more original.
BTW-Flash hit it right on the head. Practically nobody in the South seems aware they’re not flying the actual CSA flag. Seems kind of pathetic for all those twits who express heartfelt sympathies with a nation and a cause of which they know next to nothing. “You know nuthin’ John Reb!” -Some Wildling
I’ve had the stars and bars up on my wall for years and I always thought it meant much more as a Southern symbol than the battle flag. I feel like that flag was hijacked and pretty much IS a symbol of hatred, both for the PC people who hate it and the nazis who like to fly it. The Stars and Bars and the Bonnie Blue Flag both rise above that aspect of it, especially since no one seems to remember them. Hell, why did all the Southern states pick the Battle Flag and not one of the governmental flags? I think they picked it for the same reason the other asshats pick the ignorant symbol.
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I’m from the South. Born and Raised. I grew up with the Confederacy, the War of Northern Aggression, and all that. And I’ve lived other places, too. I love the South and Her traditions, for the most part. And I’ve read a bit about the Silly War.
First thing in my opinion, like a lot of momentous things in American history, the South did not secede out of the strong heart-felt principles we hearken to today. From what I’ve read and digested, it seems like a bunch of hotheaded rabble pretty much pushed us there. I’ve been reading The Civil War Day-By-Day lately and it is a good account of day-to-day events from the Lincoln election to the end of the war. When you read about what “activists” were doing to push SC to secede, it reads more like a bunch of drunken assholes forcing the issue. I love the South, but a lot of secession seems like a bunch of half-cocked rabble who had no idea what they were doing and how it would turn out. The war started with a whole lot of ignorance. If you read up on the first shots of the Revolution, it’s the same story. Much as I love America’s founding ideals, when you look at what was actually happening on the ground prior to the war, it seems like a bunch of rowdy hotheads got things rolling. For instance, I forget which book on my shelf pointed out how hard the British were trying NOT to stir up trouble, but the hotheads brought it to them. I was reminded of our troops in Iraq who tried to honor local cultural sensibilities, but the locals still got mad all the same. i.e. The Brits were ordered not to mess with the locals, but on Sundays they had full uniform review, which offended the hyper-Christian sensibilities of the locals, causing them to curse the Brits as Godless occupiers. These same hotheads are going to be who get us into our next civil war, like when a bunch of rednecks see Army soldiers on patrol in public next month on maneuvers during Operation Jade Helm and decide to take on the New World Order, shoot some dumb PVT from New York who has no idea what’s going on, and trigger a massive standoff with the Feds which gets even more hotheads up in arms and suddenly it’s open season on Federales and all-out chaos in the Heartland.
Second thing. Yes, the South fought for States Rights, but the part we tend to gloss over is how those rights were specifically the States’ Rights to hold Slaves. There was no other “right” to contend over and you can’t deny the founding documents of the CSA and the founding speech by Davis seems to make that point and how the founding state constitutions also underline it. As a Southerner, it was a bit bitter for me to make that admission to myself, but you can’t deny it-it’s written right into the founding documents of the South.
Third thing- While the CSA was fighting to own slaves, which they were right was their right at the time, the North violated pretty much all of the Constitution in the process of trying to keep the union together. Lincoln was a dictator. He also forced the issue of the war and stubbornly refused to even meet with the Southerners trying to stop the war.
Fourth thing- When PC Yankees and ignorant fools proclaim the war was fought over slavery and to free the slaves, they look like massive idiots. You can read numerous statements from Lincoln on down to all the congressmen who stated they had no intention of changing slavery, only limiting it from further spread. Lincoln, himself, famously stated he would have kept slavery if it would have kept the South in the union.
Fifth thing-As a pro-Southerner who loves the state of his birth and the heritage of his homeland, I have a problem with all the dudes who fly the so-called Confederate Flag. Why do people insist on flying that flag in particular? I’ve got a couple, but I don’t feel the need to fly them. What I used to keep on my wall was the Stars and Bars in nice 100% cotton, not that cheap nylon crap. That’s the real Confederate Flag and I’ve never understood why fans of the South would ignore that one for the War Flag. I kind of feel like that flag has been turned into a symbol of something other than the South and it’s original meaning has been replaced with a more modern, more ignorant one that pretty much equals hate for most people who see it. I guess since most people don’t know what the real Confederate Flag is, they can’t get angry when they see it. And why doesn’t anyone fly the Bonnie Blue Flag? That was the first flag of the South before there was a CSA. 810px-Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg.png
6th and final thing- Demanding SC pull down its Confederate Battle Flag is stupid. I can understand lefties want to get rid of the flag. What I can’t understand is why anyone outside of SC gets a say in the matter. I also can’t understand why they can’t wait for the dead to be buried before trying to capitalize on their passing for personal political gain. It’s ghoulish. The bodies were still warm when they started demanding the flag come down. We also didn’t even know the whole story when the calls for change started on CNN. As if the flag was what forced the kid to kill people. He was wearing Afrikaaner and Rhodesian flags on his coat, not Southern ones. Shall we pull down the Afrikaaner flags from the SC statehouse, too? Cuz’ I haven’t seen any. If you’re not a SC resident, you don’t get a say. And to circle around on SC to demand they change something is the real irony of this whole thing. I’m sure SC will knuckle down and change this time, but it is kind of ironic the state where the CSA started as a rebellion against outside authority will buckle in response to it.
GilbertS, I don’t understand why Lee never marched on Washington DC. At the beginning he could have taken it easily.
So if a symbol is offensive, then is the person displaying the symbol in the wrong whether it is intended to be offensive or not? Or is the person that is offended wrong for seeing things in a negative light? Let me give an example that should make this question very clear and this actually happened.
This happened quite some years ago, my stepson (SS) and his friend (Buddy) went to a pool hall in an area where they normally didn’t go. (I should point out that my SS and Buddy are both white) The two of them were minding their own business playing pool against each other when a black guy that was there noticed that Buddy had a shaved head, and asked him if he was racist skin head. Buddy told him no he shaved his head because he had always had a shaved head from the time he was a kid, which was the truth. My SS didn’t have a shaved head. The Black guy then noticed Buddy had a tattoo –SCMB- and accused Buddy of having a tattoo that had a B that must have something to do with Blacks, and so must be racist. Buddy told the guy that SCMB stood for -Santa Cruz Mountain Boy-, which is actually what SCMB stands for. Well by this time the Black guy doesn’t believe anything anyone says because he has convinced himself that Buddy and SS are White racist skin heads because Buddy’s head is shaved. He then begins going around the pool hall announcing to everyone there that Buddy and my SS are racist skin heads and need to get their asses kicked. He manages to get a number of guys all worked up and willing to stomp on Buddy and my SS. By this time the manager of the pool hall intervenes and tells the rowdy group that are about to start a fight to take it outside. He then takes Buddy and my SS to a back door and tells them how to get away without being seen by the group out front and they were able to leave without anyone knowing they had gone.
My SS and Buddy grew up in an all-white area and have never concerned themselves with race relations. It wasn’t an issue that they’ve ever had to deal with and Buddy’s shaved head was nothing more than a hair style preference. But despite the fact that it meant nothing, the Black guy was offended and took it as a statement of racial hatred and wanted to beat the hell out of them. So who is in the wrong here? Was Buddy wrong for shaving his head because it saved him from having to comb his hair? Or is the Black guy wrong for being offended because there are a few people that display it as a racist statement.
But here is the ultimate irony in this entire incident. The guys told me that the black guy had a shaved head.
If you are offended by this flag still vote democrat you’re a hypocrite.
check your history