For Immigration Answers, Look to Liberty

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What should be done with the estimated 15 million people living in the United States without the legal right to be here? It seems most politicians and many Americans come down on one or the other extreme. Many Republicans, including Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, have the idea that they can round up 15 million people and ship them back to wherever they came from. Many Democrats, on the other hand, would grant them blanket amnesty, give them citizenship, and make sure as many as possible are fully signed up to the welfare ranks.

Has anyone thought for a moment about how difficult, expensive, disruptive, and dangerous to our civil liberties it would be to turn over every stone in this country to search for someone who might not be here legally? How many billions of dollars would it cost? The government would likely introduce a national identification card in effort to determine who should be here and who should not. The cards would no doubt be equipped with biometric data to transmit to the government information about law-abiding American citizens that they have no right knowing.

But on the other hand, how many billions of dollars per year does it cost to provide federal, state, and local welfare and other benefits to individuals who are not legally in the United States?

The situation seems impossible and it is true there are no easy answers. I have suggested in my book Liberty Defined that some status short of citizenship might be conferred on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps a “green card” with a notation indicating that the person is not eligible for welfare and not permitted to vote in the United States. I don’t think there is any doubt that many who come to this country illegally simply want to work and will take jobs that Americans refuse to take.

The fact is, in a more libertarian society citizenship itself would not be all that highly prized. Immigration could be controlled to a degree using property rights instead of building walls and issuing a national ID card. One very important “right” currently granted by US citizenship is the “right” to all the free stuff from the government. A more libertarian society would likely have a more restrictive immigration policy because entry into the US would not be accompanied by guarantees of free things and most property would be owned privately.

Similarly, the issue of birthright citizenship would be much less difficult if acquiring American citizenship by the fact of being born on US soil did not grant the child the ability to take advantage of the welfare state. Remove the welfare magnet and you will greatly reduce the incentive to give birth here in order to gain citizenship for the baby.

Congress has within its power the authority to clarify the 14th Amendment’s definition of citizenship by making it clear that it does not grant citizenship by birthright. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is very clear: Congress has the power, “To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States.” This power has been used in the past to clarify birthright citizenship, including for the children of diplomats born on US soil and foreign prisoners who may give birth while in jail. There is no reason Congress cannot provide further clarification of what the 14 Amendment means when it refers to “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States.

It is our weak economy, caused to a great degree by the Federal Reserve system and the business cycles it constantly creates, that makes the immigration situation worse for us. Neither extreme position is correct because neither takes this into consideration. A move toward more liberty would be the first step toward a normal immigration policy.

 

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Zarathustra

Stop dicking with other countries so that they are decent places to live. Immigrants would prefer to stay in the lands where they were born. Look at all the refugees pouring into Europe right now. The only reason this is happening is because other countries, mainly the US, have fucked up their shit beyond recognition.

llpoh
llpoh

Anarcho – I am talking about children of illegal immigrants. Native Africans have oft fallen under unusual laws and regs, and given various degrees of self-governance. You cannot draw a comparison between Native Americans back in the early 1900s and current situation. Illegals are obviously under the jurisdiction of the US, or they could not be deported, arrested, etc.

llpoh
llpoh

Native Africans? Fuck me. I gotta ditch that fucking spell checker. Too funny.

AnarchoPagan
AnarchoPagan

llpoh,

Obviously, you aren’t claiming to be a lawyer, nothing wrong with that, neither am I. I do know, though, that “jurisdiction” is an immensely complicated concept in law, and if the defense challenges the court’s jurisdiction, and the prosecution cannot establish it, the court has to let you walk, no matter what the charges.

“The United States did not limit immigration in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Thus there were, by definition, no illegal immigrants and the issue of citizenship for children of those here in violation of the law was nonexistent. Granting of automatic citizenship to children of illegal alien mothers is a recent and totally inadvertent and unforeseen result of the amendment and the Reconstructionist period in which it was ratified.”

“The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.”

“Over a century ago, the Supreme Court appropriately confirmed this restricted interpretation of citizenship in the so-called “Slaughter-House cases” [83 US 36 (1873) and 112 US 94 (1884)]. In the 1884 Elk v.Wilkins case, the phrase “subject to its jurisdiction” was interpreted to exclude “children of ministers, consuls, and citizens of foreign states born within the United States.” In Elk, the American Indian claimant was considered not an American citizen because the law required him to be “not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.”

All quotes from
http://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/original_intent.html

starfcker
starfcker

And who could ever forget that wonderful scene of ron paul trying to seduce borat. Too funny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOEJGKusJb8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Zarathustra

Admin, back from the Shamrock so soon?

Llpoh
Llpoh

Uh-oh. Someone is about to get skewered.

I will watch from afar. Getting entrails out of my clothes is never easy.

the tumbleweed
the tumbleweed

Opening the borders to all who want to come is analogous to emptying your bank account in the name of charity. You can spend every penny and pawn all possessions to help those in need. Afterward, you’ve helped a few people, but have become impoverished yourself. You’ve also lost any future ability to help anyone.

There are a lot of third world countries out there. To let everyone in who is from a more disadvantaged foreign land will only result in the U.S. reaching equilibrium with the third world. This isn’t a theory, it has fact that we are witnessing in our lifetime.

The borderless society can only exist in a fictional libertarian paradise. It cannot exist in our current statist system because it will destroy the necessary standard of living that allows one to even theorize about libertarian ideas in the first place. 100+ million third worlders do not care about libertarianism. They care about gaining as much resources for themselves as is possible, through any means possible. Maybe things will be different for their children, their grandchildren. But all will be lost by then.

starfcker
starfcker

Not really my point. Ron paul signed off on letting borat use that, so he saw the humor. Said he wished he would have punched him, would have been funnier. That aside, the pauls aren’t going to lead us out of our funk. Ron is out, and rand made some bad choices, so here we are. Time to look past them, and it pains me to say that. But it’s true.

starfcker
starfcker

Llpoh, probably not that bloody. I like ron paul. But we need results, right now. I use football analogies a lot. We need guys that can make plays. Now. That’s what I want. Don’t have to be perfect. Just move the damn ball.

starfcker
starfcker

Here is a speech trump gave four years ago. I went to it. He’s been thinking about the state of our country for awhile. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVztgvpe4FM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

the tumbleweed
the tumbleweed

Tend to agree with starfvcker even if against popular sentiment here. Paul’s campaigns did a lot of good. His 2008 campaign exposed a new generation to his ideas as well as started the Tea Party, before it was co-opted by Koch, Dick Armey, and Glenn Beck. His 2012 campaign exposed the absolute corruption of the media and the Republican party for anyone still in doubt. Yet along the way, Paul was a nepotist who put his family in charge of his campaign, created a massive mailing list and then handed if off to his son to milk dry, and now narrates doom porn scam video commercials on late night cable TV. It’s hard to believe his actions or intentions are fully in the name of liberty. That’s ok, he’s just a person after all. But every word he utters or writes is not of the gospel. Put his picture above your mantle if you want. But it’s time to move on.

starfcker
starfcker

Look jim, my infatuation with trump is simple. For better than a decade I’ve been looking for somebody to lead us out of the vice grip dead end of clinton/rubinomics. Right or left, I couldn’t be less ideological. I realized trump is the best combination of means, vision, and termidity out there right now. If not trump, what might someone capable of changing things look like?

BEA LEVER
BEA LEVER

Star- the last time TPTB gave us someone capable of “changing things” we got Oreo. He looked like trouble and he lived up to his appearance. We will get the criminal puppet THEY want us to have, what makes you think anything has changed?

Gator
Gator

I enjoyed your posts, Harry. I really don’t understand what is so hard to understand. Remove the MASSIVE economic incentives for sneaking in here, people will be much less likely to try it. Keep handing out free shit to every third worlder who makes it here, neither a wall, or a most full of alligators, not anything else, will keep them out.

It also pains me to see people fucking ASKING for martial law like that? Are you fucking kidding me? Letting the government use moar force to solve a problem created by govt in the first place is insanely idiotic. Anyone who seriously advocates that needs their head examined.

starfcker
starfcker

Bea, maybe our disagreement here is that I don’t believe TPTB are giving us trump. Try looking at it that way. What if he is real? Gator, you’re absolutely right. Big deal. We all know that. How you gonna do anything about it? That’s all that matters.

Spartacus Rex
Spartacus Rex

LMAO!
Re:
“Has anyone thought for a moment about how difficult, expensive,..”

WTF CARES?

Give the F**king BILL to the offending Illegal Alien’s Home Country for the cost of roundup, deportation, and any benefits obtained by same, with the Order to Pay Up within 30 Days, or not only will the U.S. Embargo said Country, but if not paid up within 90 Days, we will send in the U.S. Marines to seize Prime Real Estate therein and Auction of Same to Pay The Damn Bill!

I bet that alone would be sufficient enough to get Mexico to lock up ITS northern border tighter than Toby’s A**hole & Pronto at that!

Cheers, S. Rex

harry p.
harry p.

Marshall law would be great guys, roving checkpoints, more empowered & militarized cops, more laws so thatthere is probable cause to question/search/detain every single man woman and child, higher taxes to pay for all these “services”, sounds like paradise…

starfcker, congrats you are officially the worst person this site, to have your destructive and dogshit filled existence removed from this country might be worth some degree of marshall law just to have your stupidity and immorallity deported, go “move the ball” someplace else.
You along with the social justice warriors, libtards, obama lovers and clintonites are why this country is becoming a festering shell of itself. You are all the same, looking to some unicorn of a leader that will “tell them how it is” and “lead them to greatness” and have all the answers to quell their anger and tuck them.in at night so they dont lie awake shaking infear or pissing/shitting their depends. For fucks sake, what mind of sheep are you?

We really are progressing towards “Idiocracy”

IndenturedServant

Harry hits the nail on the head. As I’ve said a dozen times or more, make fiat money illegal and you will be astonished at just how fast the ship begins to right itself. No need to round up illegals, no need to close govt buildings or even fire govt employees. That which cannot be sustained, will not be sustained. It will be like the two Bobs on Office Space “fixing the glitch”.

Like llpoh says, it’s going to be unpalatable but that will pass quickly. I find the current state of affairs more unpalatable to be honest. Like SSS said elsewhere, we can get back to the Constitution but it will be difficult and take time. Some minor tweaks to permanently outlaw the usurping of the document will be needed but those still alive by then will be willing just to prevent the bullshit from happening again.

I’m glad to see that the ill effects of Assclownism are being recognized more and more. A couple more were added to the list too! Maybe I should repost my list of Assclown definitions in case anyone is unclear.

Harry, your comments warmed my cold, black, shriveled heart. Thank you!

starfcker
starfcker

Harry, you’re full of hot air. Arguing with you is like arguing with a woman, a dumb woman who doesn’t read much. I’ll bet you have a shrill voice. I like ron paul. I think you’re a retard. Since i’m not sitting by the mailbox, waiting for my check to come. I gotta get out there and work. So if don’t want open borders like ron paul, I’m the worst person on this site? I’ll wear that with pride, dickhead

starfcker
starfcker

IS, don’t encourage that dumb fuck. Getting him back on his meds should be your first priority. You don’t want to be responsible when he looks up during a rainstorm and drowns.

IndenturedServant

Sorry starfcker but just going off memory, I agree with 99% of what Harry said.

I believe shit is coming to a head in this country. Too many honest, decent American’s are quietly seething. I’m not talking about “preppers” either. Everyday, hardworking Americans who just manage to get by, paycheck to paycheck don’t have the time or resources to be “preppers”. They may not grasp exactly what’s about to unfold but they know they’re getting fucked.

It is my sincere hope that when the trigger finally manifests itself………the blow back will be near instantaneous and predominantly peaceful but shockingly unequivocal and unrelenting. I’m fucking sick of this shit. Millions of us have honest sincere and legitimate grievances against the treasonous govt currently in power. I don’t want to live the rest of my life as an indentured servant to a criminal class of oligarchs and their bought and paid for, cocksucking, lackey politicians! I’m 100% in favor of a peaceful airing of those grievances. I sincerely doubt that TPTB will be accommodating. If it can’t be done peacefully, the alternatives are too fucked up to think about.

starfcker
starfcker

Look, I’m just fucking with harry. He’s being dipsjit, but he’s generally solid. We all want pretty much exactly the same thing. How do we get there? I’ve argued for six months, trump is our UKIP, our five star, our national front. Ron paul isn’t. Someone’s got to do the dirty work. You wouldn’t hire a choir boy to break kneecaps. It’s gonna take a real bull.

harry p.
harry p.

IS, mostly true, it would take more than outlawing fiat money because the state would still be able to collect taxes except now it would need the taxes even more due to not being able to will more money into existence.

Nothing good comes from hiring a hitman to supposedly clean things up. Thinking along those lines will likely lead to even more problems.
It seems Admin needs to make the Hangman poem a scheduled post that pops up every few weeks for those that lqck a long term memory.

BEA LEVER
BEA LEVER

Star says- “What if he (Trump) is real”?

Jeebus H. Krist Star, REAL people don’t get to do 11 years on the tv doing faux reality shows LMAO. Are you serious? Why not Kim Kartrashian for president or Caitlyn Jenner or Judge Judy cause you know they are real? That is laughable on every level, you prolly think the MSM news shows are on the up and up, right?

starfcker
starfcker

Harry, you keep spinning in circles here. We know what the problem is. A fifth grader knows what the problem is. What concrete steps can anybody you can think of, with the powers they possess, or have a realistic chance of gaining, do to get us on a better path? Talk is cheap, and as cheap as it is, you got nothing.

BEA LEVER
BEA LEVER

harry p says- “We really are progressing toward idiocracy”

Spot on Harry.

starfcker
starfcker

Bea, here is how our perceptions are different. Take the debate. You see a scripted reality show. I see a political novice up there, facing a blistering coordinated attack. He knew something was coming. Kelly gave it away on twitter the day before. Still, trump was on the hotseat, make or break. He handled it,quite unconventionally. Think that was scripted?

harry p.

I actually find the argument of citizenship is somewhat comical when looked at with perspective, citizenship today has basically become a govt’s claim of ownership of your person and property.
So we are literally slaves arguing about who owns us…

How’s this for a solution, no wall, no govt fence, no 100 mile constitutional free zones, just absolute property rights. You own land along the border or otherwise, put up a “trespassers will be shot on site” sign and if you see people you dont know/trespassers/any illegals (including govt workers entering your property without a legit warrant declared beforehand) are then taken care of per the landowners discretion.

Property rights maintained, govt doesnt increase policestate power and illegals scared to cross due to sharpshooters along the border protecting their own property. No new laws created, only the rolling back of govt power so this will never happen either, why?
Because all those who come up with solutions for the govt to implement arent trying to fix ahit, they are trying to create a fiefdom for themselves. And the people who support them are statist scumbags.

statist scumbag
statist scumbag

So you got nothing, is that what you’re saying? Thought so.

harry p.

Per your retarded criteria, yeah i guess so.
This name is mor applicable, suggest you keep it.

IndenturedServant

Harry, I figure that if we ever get on the path to seeking redress from the govt regarding fiat money, taxes will be high on the list of grievances.

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