So you spent the last 30 years buying shit you couldn’t afford with money you didn’t have and now you think you’ll just keep working, denying entry level jobs to young people. Those nice vacations, leased cars, and houses twice the size you really needed sure did cost a lot of money. Amazing that you could reach the age of 50 and have only $50,000 of retirement funds stashed away. Frugality certainly wasn’t one of your strong points. Delusion has seen you through so far, why not keep it going into your 70s.
You morons actually think someone will keep paying you to work into your 70s? Employers will not want you. Healthcare costs for old geezers are too steep. A 25 year old is healthy and won’t throw out their back every time they bend over.
Boomer delusions will be obliterated when they realize they have no savings, their home forgot to appreciate, and there are no jobs for 70 year old delusional knuckleheads. Oh well. It couldn’t happen to a bigger bunch of materialistic crybabies.
People plan to work into their 70s or later
Almost four in 10 workers say they’ll retire after age 70 — or just keep working
By Andrea Coombes, MarketWatch
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Almost four in 10 workers said they’ll work long past the normal retirement age, if they even retire at all, and a growing number of people said the recession will force them to work longer in life, a new survey finds.
Thirty-nine percent of people said they’ll work past age 70 or simply never retire, according to the annual survey from the Transamerica Center for Retirement Studies, a nonprofit private foundation.
Of those who say they’ll work in retirement or after age 65, 34% said it was because they can’t afford to retire and 9% said it was because they need the health benefits, according to the survey.
Continuing to work is “a very important opportunity to bridge their savings shortfall,” said Catherine Collinson, president of the Transamerica Center for Retirement Studies.
“If you expect to live to 95 and you retire at 75 versus 65, that gives you 10 additional years to generate income and save, and 10 fewer years that you need to save for. It’s a wonderful opportunity to help workers bridge their savings,” she said.
Still, a problem for those who plan to work well into their 70s is that strategy assumes they’ll keep their jobs and stay healthy. “Planning not to retire is not a retirement strategy,” Collinson said. “Too often, life’s unforeseen circumstances can dictate otherwise, be it through a job loss, health issues or life’s other obligations.”
Get creative
Yet 87% of those workers who plan to keep working said they don’t have a back-up plan if for health or other reasons they’re unable to continue working.
And 82% of all workers in the survey said they don’t have, or aren’t sure if they have, a back-up plan.
Collinson said creating a back-up plan requires some creativity. Trying to stay as healthy as possible is one idea, she said.
Another idea: Taking a page from the “Golden Girls” and consider living with a roommate or two in retirement.
“Maybe it’s not the retirement that we envisioned,” Collinson said, “but even though it’s different, that doesn’t mean it needs to be worse.”
Pirate Jo says:
Hey, no fair. I’m not a Boomer, but will probably have to keep working past 70 because there is no place for me to save/invest and have it keep up with inflation.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
15 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:49 pm
willdogz says:
You are most correct about the boomers… I am one, but I paid as I went. My kids gen (currently 20 to 30) are even worse. They can’t put down their iPod long enough to pay attention to anything. When I attempt to advise them about the coming evil, they snicker and make some comment about “the old man is talking about that shit again”. They can’t afford houses because they bought expensive cars and are making payments that are unbelievable.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
36 
2
17th May 2011 at 4:50 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
Few people will work to 70 because few people will live to 70.
RE
Hot debate. What do you think?
10 
6
17th May 2011 at 4:55 pm
Colma Rising says:
BBES
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
7 
1
17th May 2011 at 4:57 pm
Administrator says:
RE
Thanks for making a depressing post really really depressing. How old are you?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:57 pm
Vinnie The Shark says:
The laws and policies that generation pushed through will in no small way lead to the coming downfall of this country. Besides the financial burden, they have that going for them as well. What were they thinking? I’m at the ripe old age of 31 and seriously considering moving to Chile and moving back in 20 years after the war is over and the rebuilding has begun.
-Vinnie
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
11 
2
17th May 2011 at 5:01 pm
Imaginarium says:
RE got a point.
However, I’ll keep working and if you X’ers and lower try to get rid of me I’ll sue for age discrimination, win & buy more shit.
Like or Dislike:
5 
2
17th May 2011 at 5:02 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@Admin
This post was just BEGGING for the Full Doom perspective
I’m 53. I’ll probably get my Ticket to the Great Beyond on 12/21/2012
RE
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
2
17th May 2011 at 5:06 pm
Pirate Jo says:
“Few people will work to 70 because few people will live to 70.”
That’s kind of a relief, actually. Even if it means *I* won’t live to 70.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:41 pm
Don Murphy says:
Im no boomer (proud X-er here) but I plan to keep working till I drop. I have no choice really. The 401k is a losing proposition as the .gov will take it sooner or later. Saving the dollar is an exercise in futility. As I have no family wealth to inherit I suppose the best I can hope for is to get to age 60-ish and maybe take a year or two break here and there.
Im not going to even attempt to make more money for the criminals to steal (think Galt). The boomers will be mostly gone by then and there just aren’t that many X-ers and Millenials out there. I think the muslims and christians are going to be the new Jews so most of them will get the axe (I say this not out of spite for their faiths, but because I truly believe the .govs of the world will do whatever they can to get people to villify them).
Anyway, some random thoughts, but the long and the short is that come 2025 when the next High hits (provided I survive till then and learn to speak Spanish) I dont think work will be hard to find. Maybe I can start saving again at that time…
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
5 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:58 pm
Oscar Mannheim says:
Leading-edge Boomer, born in 1946. I have NO debt, have two children (35 and 30), the younger of whom has no debt and the elder a car payment which she can easily afford. Both earn over $100k a year, both are thrifty and hard-working and while both are American citizens, neither lives in the US (well, the elder is in Puerto Rico) nor plans to. US banks and the Patriot Act are making life difficult for the younger, who is an engineer on an off-shore oil platform (US company) but can barely access his own money, save for what we keep in Uruguay. None of my boomer cohort friends seem to fit the above descriptions. I will work till I drop or become senile, whichever comes first, and I do so because I enjoy doing so. I sympathize with the younger posters and the difficulties they face,
@Vinnie. Don’t just think about moving to Chile: do so if possible! I have spent all but eleven years of my adult life living overseas and have no regrets whatsoever.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
11 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:11 pm
Smith-n-Jones says:
My father-in-law, who is probably richer even than RE, is still working at 73 and just signed another 4-year contract to oversee the development of a string of copper mines in South America. He was retired for a few years, but hated it and a long-time friend and co-worker talked him back into the fold. I don’t think he will ever stop, regardless of the money, which he doesn’t even need. His services are in incredible demand in spite of his age.
I am 50, and I’m just now figuring out how to be valuable. I can outwork a team of 25-year olds, because decades of experience allows me to filter out 98% of the useless crap they waste their time on. I expect to work into my 70s if not 80s. After that, I’ll probably just die out of boredom. Besides, I am not rich, have only a paltry few hundred k in savings, and can probably expect to get little or nothing from Social Security, so I will probably have to keep working. I can already feel the icy stare of those 20-somethings lusting afer my job.
One thing, though, about admin talking nonstop shit about boomers. As I understand it, the majority of sociologists define the baby boom as occurring between the years of 1946-1964, which makes admin ONE OF US!
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha…
I have to admit, however, that I personally seem to have much more in common with Gen-Xers, even though I was born in 1960. My children, all Millenials, think it’s hysterical that I was a punk rocker back in the late 70s.
Then again, there’s always Dec. 21, 2012 to worry about…
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
17th May 2011 at 6:11 pm
underfire says:
Maybe I’m out of touch, but what comes to my mind is who will replace the boomers in the workforce. I can’t find a younger than boomer not only willing to show up, but to work with dirt, tractors, horses, manure, snow and wind, long hours, etc. etc.
Even the hispanics are becoming too good to do this kind of work. This is a big question mark to some of us in ag.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
8 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:20 pm
Kill Bill says:
*Sigh* more pig in the python theory…
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:28 pm
Kill Bill says:
I am swtiched generations. Much to Jims chagrin. Hah and hah.
I am now a Generation Joneser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:36 pm
Dave says:
I’m a pre-boomer and the boomers used to say the same shit to me. Why don’t you quit work and make room for the younger generations? So I did, at age 59. Now it’s your turn fuckers.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:50 pm
Shadows says:
I guess you can’t blame them to some degree. They were born into the peak of American civilization, and raised to believe it would just keep rising from there. It is part of our national ethos, I think, to believe in neverending human progress: why should they get poorer as they get older, Boomers must have reasoned. It is not the fault of most members of that generation that the middle class was systematically destroyed through inflation, offshoring, etc. during the latter half of the previous century.
So they took out loans, and more loans, to try to maintain an idyllic American standard of living for themselves and their children as real incomes fell steadily throughout their working lives. I’m not trying to excuse the foolishness and irresponsibility of trying to live on credit, just trying to offer a hypothesis as to why so many people, Baby Boom and otherwise, have behaved that way in the past few decades.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
5 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:58 pm
Muck About says:
Let me tell you about working forever. It ain’t gonna happen.
Age = pain.
Age = loosing your eyesight.
Age = sickness.
Age = life in smaller steps.
Age = not remembering things so well.
Age = going to bed after lunch for an hour or not making through supper time.
Age = too much shit or not enough of it.
Age = thinking back about how much fun sex used to be.
Age = trying to pick up a 5 lb. bag of sugar and your hand not being able to do it.
Age = working at the kitchen counter for 15 minutes and having to lie down because you back is killing you and you don’t want to take another god damned pain pill.
Age = just being thankful you’ve awakened to another day – pain or not.
Age = slowly accumulating so much much pain and frustration that life is, one day, just too much trouble to keep doing.
This is for a lucky old fart who is in really great shape relative to all those who have already died of —- wait for it —- Age.
And these are a short list of the good stuff. It doesn’t include such unexpected treats as a couple of stents followed by an eventual triple bypass, cataract surgery, cancer and osteoarthritis in any joint you’d care to use more than once a day.
So if anyone tries to sell you on the idea of “working forever” tell them to blow it out their ass and do whatever you have to do, while you can work, to see to it you have saved sufficiently for the time beyond which you can not do it any more for whatever reason.
I will die one day. That day will come when I can no longer take care of my personal physical needs (poop, piss, eat, walk, etc.). I personally will not be dependent on any other human being to see to it my ass is wiped. I would expect that with the tender hand of Government on our health care (and throat), we will find it all much easier to die in the near future – a “Health and Human Welfare Care and We Love You Panel” will see to it you get your handy OD of some sort of kind farewell curtesy of what’s left of the taxpayers.
Better to pay for an OD trip (at maybe $0.25/death) than keeping a corpse alive an extra month just to milk the system (as is done every fucking day now).
I don’t think many people will “work forever”. They’ll work until they can’t and die.
Happy dreams…
MA
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
18 
2
17th May 2011 at 7:46 pm
Viet Vet-70 says:
As a proud boomer, hit 62 the other day, I disagree the boomers are the root cause for this mess; being greedy, spoiled, etc is not just in the 1946-1964 generation, it exists in all age groups. Unless I am totally senile, which is a distinct possibility, I remember my parents generation, purchasing larger and larger homes; as well as, larger and larger cars…who can not remember the 1960 caddy with those awesome fins. Today, I drive past the youngins texting on the their phones (I can barely see the cell phone numbers let alone text) and dodge a few who have no idea how to drive and text. My mother did bring me up not to live past my current financial means which has served me well; how long do I want to work, if the current job does not lay me off, probably past 70. Will I need the money to live, probably not, but I enjoy working and get a satisfaction of a job well done; as well, as the day to day challenges and I enjoy working with the youngins that have new ideas…something about teaching an ‘old dog’ new tricks? Present employer is like the admin’s, get 24 vacation days, not including holidays; decent benefits and I am sure the wife would not want me home 24/7, besides, I cannot veg infront of the TV set, although I spend way too much time on TBP
. We each are responsible for our own lives, if a boomer or anyone else did not put away some “nuts” for the future, that is their problem, be they 75/65/55/ or even 45 today. Just my 2 cents worth.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
16 
1
17th May 2011 at 8:34 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@Viet Vet
Jim just likes to blame Boomers for everything he sees wrong with the world. Like the 30 Blocks of Squalor and the People of Walmart, they are a Personal Pet Peeve. He blows off steam this way. Don’t read this stuff literally, read it as a metaphor for the anguish and pain being suffered by members of his generation. LOL.
RE
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
7
17th May 2011 at 8:47 pm
Administrator says:
Viet Vet
Make up your mind for yourself. Don’t let one-trick ponies who can’t expand their brain beyond their narrow ideological worldview tell you what to think. I’m sure you would agree that know it all ideological egotists get quite boring after they say the same thing for the 359th time. LOL.
Like or Dislike:
5 
1
17th May 2011 at 8:56 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@Admin
How about the 7M Fourth Turning posts you have written? That isn’t just a little OLD now or what? LOL.
RE
Hot debate. What do you think?
2 
6
17th May 2011 at 9:01 pm
Scott says:
I retired 10 months ago at age 58. It was on my tenth anniversary of working for a municipal utility. I was able to do this because, the municipal utility, in its infinite stupidity, offered medical insurance as part of its retirement plan. I do pity the taxpayers though.
Thanks, fools who elected them.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
8 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:09 pm
Administrator says:
RE
Zero Hedge and the other 50 websites that publish every Fourth Turning article seem to disagree. I can’t wait for your next original illuminati post. I know you Boomers have trouble with myopia and one trick ponyitis. LOL.
I have to get back to my next post where I scorn Boomers and the Squalorites in one fell swoop. It will go over your head since it doesn’t jive with your narrow ideological view of the world. LOL.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
10 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:14 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
Narrow Ideological View? ROFLMAOPIMP. Boomers,FSA,Unions yadda yadda yadda.
RE
Hot debate. What do you think?
3 
6
17th May 2011 at 9:19 pm
Administrator says:
“Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?” – Matthew 7:3
Blaming the phantom illuminati for every ill in the world is so last year. But, it never grows old for one trick ponies. LOL.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
9 
1
17th May 2011 at 9:33 pm
Snake says:
PHANTOM illuminati?
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:43 pm
llpoh says:
There is a lot more wrong than just the boomers. But, boy, did we fuck the goat in a lot of ways. What we have taught our yunguns is top of the fuck-ups we have made, in my opinion. Standards slide from the top, not the bottom.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
9 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:47 pm
Dragline says:
Wow. It really is interesting how the comments on this one fall into the archetypes identified by Strauss & Howe.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:50 pm
Colma Rising says:
I love it when the boomstainers drop their bongos in the dirt mid-koombaya to defend their flakey generation.
I’m with Admin in that it sure cracks me up.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
9 
4
17th May 2011 at 9:56 pm
Colma Rising says:
llpoh says: ” What we have taught our yunguns is top of the fuck-ups we have made, in my opinion. ”
What ever would make you think that?!
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:13 pm
llpoh says:
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
17th May 2011 at 10:19 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
Many of us boomers will be working well past 70 so we can build businesses and provide jobs to younger ingrates. I find boomer employees more stable, wiser, and smarter than under forty-somethings. Just where in hell are you going to find people to program and operate sophisticated manufacturing equipment. I doubt very much that there are many in the younger generations that can build bridges and highways or large structures without help from boomers. Boomers have a tremendous amount of knowledge, skill, and experience. To wish that they would quickly die off is short sighted to say the least. When they go to the grave you will have lost a great resource.
Besides, boomers have most of the gold so fuck off.
Sincerely Yours,
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
10
17th May 2011 at 10:37 pm
Administrator says:
Let the mass Boomer die off begin. They are so delusional, they probably think they won’t die. Can someone explain to the retarded Boomers that driving a leased BMW and living in a 6,000 sq ft McMansion with -20% equity does not make you rich. I don’t know whether Shallowest Generation, Clueless Generation, or Dumbest Generation fits best.
What say you Boomers?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
4
17th May 2011 at 10:48 pm
llpoh says:
Come on, Admin – now you are just baiting us.
And you know NONE of that applies to me – totally debt free, still up massively on what I paid for my home, etc. etc. Plus I did not vote for Obamarama. Or either Bush. Or Carter. There ought to be a category for smart Boomers.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
10 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:03 pm
brann says:
i am a boomer and will work as long as i damn well please.i own my home,have no car payments and pay off credit every month.i learned well from my parents and did not join the parade of stupidity in spending. my two siblings are boomers also and are as free of debt as me. do not blame all of us,some did not fall under the spell of consumerism that was perpetrated by both political parties for the last 40 years
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
17th May 2011 at 11:25 pm
Thinker says:
Every Prophet generation ends up being hated in their late lives, mainly because their generation’s issues are those that drive 4T crises and the suffering of a great number of people. That’s not to say there aren’t “good” and “bad” members of the generation… all generational theory deals with generalities that can be said about an entire group of people (the forest) rather than individuals (the trees).
And a correction: the Baby Boom generation is defined as 1946-1960. Yes, KB, the cusp (1956-1965) are known as Jonesers, who can express traits of both Boom and Gen X.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:25 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?” – Matthew 7:3
Blaming the phantom BOOMER for every ill in the world is so last year. But, it never grows old for one trick ponies. LOL
RE
Like or Dislike:
1 
4
17th May 2011 at 11:38 pm
Daffydil says:
I’m a young Boomer – 54. I am in the midst of switching careers. Left the corporate rat crap trap because my latest boss was a 34 year old diva who has not yet learned that her brains are in her head, not her ass. The reason I will keep doing SOMETHING is that I’ve watched what happened to my parents. They spent any extra $$$ they had saved on my sister & her kids and now the only thing they do is sit in reclining chairs and watch television all day. Wow . How exciting. How productive. They complain about all their health problems – much of it comes from sitting on their ass! Whenever I talk to them (I live a thousand miles away, thank God), and they complain – I have to remind myself that they willingly chose this. I used to beg them to come out where I live (southwest) to no avail. I was even willing to pay their expenses. I REFUSE to retire and be a freakin’ couch sitter! Life is too short to waste. Admin – I do have a “back-up plan” – smart girls always do. We just know better than to “tell all”. One of the joys of moving into “old fart’ status!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
7 
1
17th May 2011 at 11:51 pm
Buckhed says:
I hope when I die, I’ll come back as a brass stripper pole in a Bangkok whore house.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:00 am
SSS says:
Admin said,
“I don’t know whether Shallowest Generation, Clueless Generation, or Dumbest Generation fits best.
What say you Boomers?”
SSS says,
I don’t give a shit about “generational’ fuckups.”
My wife and I did our part to be responsible with our money to make sure WE can take of OURSELVES. Cut off my SS and other pension checks. Go ahead. We’ll make it. Comfortably.
And that, my friends, is the definition of personal resonsibility.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
13 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:37 am
Colma Rising says:
RE said: “Blaming the phantom BOOMER for every ill in the world is so last year. ”
RE must have meant “soooooo last year”.
SSS said: “I don’t give a shit about “generational’ fuckups.”
My wife and I did our part to be responsible with our money to make sure WE can take of OURSELVES. Cut off my SS and other pension checks. Go ahead. We’ll make it. Comfortably.”
I don’t doubt that for a minute.
Like or Dislike:
5 
1
17th May 2011 at 12:59 am
llpoh says:
What is done is done. The question is can we learn by, and overcome, the mistakes we we as a society have made.
The Boomer days will come to an end in the next couple of decades. Waht will the younger generations do to overcome the issues thay are faced with? If the decision is not taken soon to roll back the unsustainable expenses the Boomers will incur on their way out, then by the time they vanish the future will have been consumed. I am in the same situation as SSS – I do not need welfare support of any kind. But most of my fellow boomers do. To them I say you should have prepared better and should not now be expecting to drain the future for those that come next. Too bad for you.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
9 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:01 am
Reverse Engineer says:
Unbelievable.
RE
Like or Dislike:
1 
6
17th May 2011 at 1:20 am
newsjunkie says:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
10 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:27 am
Reverse Engineer says:
Thought Experiment.
10 Polynesians are Canoe-Wrecked on a small island. Its got decent recources, and 1 of the 10 guys is a good organizer and a good saver. He gets the other 9 guys working for him, and he saves his Coconuts. Then a Tsunami hits and washes away all the Coconut Trees. Saver has lots of Coconuts Buried, the other guys have No Coconuts.
Coconut Saver says, “What, ME Worry?” I have LOTS of Coconuts Saved. The rest of you should have saved them up like ME! Too bad for you!
Question: What is the Life Expectancy of the Coconut Saver?
RE
Like or Dislike:
2 
4
17th May 2011 at 2:17 am
llpoh says:
Short. How about if 6 were savers and 4 were sloths? Then it would be lots better. I will happily defend my property. Please refer to Muck on this. The world has always been harsh. Why do we think that has suddenly no longer the case.
Also, the sloths may need to rely on family. That is the historic way, and seems largely right and proper.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
8 
0
17th May 2011 at 3:18 am
Reverse Engineer says:
” How about if 6 were savers and 4 were sloths?”-llpoh
I reduce it to the simple case in order to show the problem. the problem still exists even in the 60-40 scenario, it is just more confusing. The fact is that it is not near 60-40, if you cut Social Security off from most of the current recipients, probably 80% of them would not be able to meet their bills with their remaining savings. Even if they are only 50% dependent on the SS as part of the monthly income, the rest in investments, a 50% cut would make them insolvent. Remarkably few people are so well invested with so much savings the their SS is such a small part of it they could lose it without being touched.
Beyond that, it is obviously NOT just SS that is going to get hit here, Private Pensions will as well. On a societal level, if you met the 1:10 ratio set up in the thought experiment of those who had sufficient savings v those who had insufficient savings, it would be remarkable given the whole country and the financial system is basically insolvent.
I refer you to John Donne
“No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man’s death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. ”
You simply cannot make it on your own and tell everyone else they are just SOL. I just won’t work. We all depend on each other for the social contract to remain viable.
RE
Like or Dislike:
5 
1
17th May 2011 at 3:40 am
Surly1 says:
Oh, some men are islands, as is easy to see from reading this thread.
It is always deeply instructive to enjoy the advice of those who are relatively well-fixed puff out their chests and make the “tough decisions” for the rest of their fellows, i.e. “if you didn’t save enough, too bad for you,” etc. Most of us are really good at making hard decisions for someone else.
And as to “expect to drain the future:” most boomers have dutifully paid into SS for 40 plus years, with an employer match. If that money had been saved conservatively, it would have made a tidy annuity for each saver. As it occurred though, the craven lickspittles that we vote into office looted the accounts and used the $$ as general revenue, in the process buying more votes. Add to that strain SS “mission creep” as other aid programs got folded under the SS umbrella.
There is no doubt that boomers haven’t saved enough overall, because as a society we don’t save. A reading of Admin’s third post in the series illustrates how the bankster’s Fed policies have decimated the value of the dollar, in effect mocking savers. Blaming prospective retirees for SS being insolvent is like blaming homeowners whose house was robbed for the theft.
RE
“You simply cannot make it on your own and tell everyone else they are just SOL. It just won’t work. We all depend on each other for the social contract to remain viable.”
Some clearly believe the bell will not toll for them. In every generation.
Like or Dislike:
4 
1
17th May 2011 at 4:58 am
Surly1 says:
Admin
Re Smith-n-Jones above,
Welcome to the club. Going to change the article headline to, “WE boomers crack me up?”
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
17th May 2011 at 5:00 am
llpoh says:
Surly – boomers have lived thru extraordinary boom times. That so many have failed to prepare themselves for their dotage is a disgrace. There are always sad exceptions deserving of compassion. However, when you havea “compassionate” society you invariably end up with a huge free shit army. We cannot afford such, nor should we. The proper place of charity is to be privately funded. You cannot enforce such as the enforcers cannot be trusted.
It is a shame that SS will be insufficient. The fact is each person is taking vastly more than they put in, and screams entitlement to do so: hey, I put a dollar in each week so now I deserve the million I and my wife will go thru in retirement.
A retiring person and their employers have put in perhaps one or two hundred thousand. If that were available to them upon retirement it would greatly help. The young will not see a cent of it, in my opinion.
And yes, I puff out my chest in self-righteous indignation when I see what the grasshoppers who have lived only for today are leaving for the winter. I have done my part by and large – I have built a company and hired a lot of people, and paid considerable tax of all sorts.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
9 
1
17th May 2011 at 5:58 am
Surly1 says:
llpoh–
Fine and well for you. But that does not address my central point, which is that, had it been left alone and out of the general revenues, SS would be able to provide the modest social insurance premium originally intended.
We could have afforded such, and should have. But the fuckwits we elected spent the money on an assortment of goodies, including a series of illegal wars and TSA sexual molesters as well as social programs, and now the self righteous libertarian right wants to say we can’t afford anything…
I would agree with you in this: “the enforcers can’t be trusted.” Look at the numner of high profile fraud prosecutions for Wall Street bankers.
We’d have had plenty or criminal charges if Eric Holder were still alive . . .
Like or Dislike:
3 
2
17th May 2011 at 6:58 am
cv51 says:
The boomers not prepared for their impending journey of feebleness will become inhabitants of the 100 blocks of squalor. Nature will take its course and thin out the herd quickly. Life is not fair, or just. It is cruel and hard. Petroleum, and fiat money led us into believing in a unending and expanding economy that will soon evaporate. The thinning will encompass a broad swath of every generation.
Later, need to get crackin
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:18 am
Administrator says:
llpoh
Of course I’m baiting the Boomers. It is so much fun, because there are so many of them.
I think it is hysterical that Boomers respond to my baiting on this site. Don’t they realize that if they are actually reading a site like this, they aren’t the ones I’m talking about?
Delusional boomers aren’t seeking out articles about delusional boomers.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
7 
2
17th May 2011 at 9:01 am
Administrator says:
SSS
You and llpoh get it. There are millions of Boomers that have lived like you and llpoh and every other Boomer on this site. There are no delusional Boomers on TBP. But, they sure do get their panties in a bunch when I lump them all together.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
7 
2
17th May 2011 at 9:05 am
Administrator says:
Surly1
No luck. Strauss & Howe cut off Boomers in 1960. I’m 1963. Tough shit BOOMERS!!! I’m not one of you.
Hot debate. What do you think?
6 
2
17th May 2011 at 9:11 am
Dragline says:
Surly, dont’ take it personally, but the fuckwits you elected are largely boomers elected by the boomers and for the boomers along with the “what, me worry?” Silents working on their personal bucket lists and enjoying their Viva Viagra. There has not been a fiscally responsible political party in this country since about 1978 when the last boomer became 18 and started voting. And we’re not likely to see one until after the shit hits the fan and we don’t have any choice. It’ll be called the “Foreign Creditor Party”.
The changes you are talking about went into place in ’83, when the FICA was jacked up (just in time for the X-ers to enter the work force) and SS became part of the general slush fund allowing you dudes to party on for the next 20 years or so with an assortment of spending programs and selected tax breaks that went largely to boomers. Do you remember that when you guys were young adults, consumer interest was tax-deductible and you could default on student loans with impunity? Well, that party stopped as soon as Xers began graduating from college. You can see why we have no sympathy — we know the rules are going to be changed to screw us as soon as we get there, so we gave up on the system a long time ago.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
6 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:13 am
Dragline says:
BTW, Strauss & Howe also predicted the boomer mentality of not wanting to retire as expressed above and not believing the youngest generation can “make it” without the boomers. Same thing was said about the GI generation in the 30s. I’m always amazed at how prescient the 4T analysis is about so many things.
It’s funny watching the boomers go through their very publiic “five stages of grief” dance at every stage of life — that’s what I mainly see in the boomer comments above. You saw it in the 80s with movies like the Big Chill and tv shows like “30-something” (now nobody vomit — sorry to bring that up). Then when the boomer men started balding, it was all about Rogaine and Hair Club for Men. (Contrast — almost every Xer I know who is going bald just shaves his fucking head and gets on with life.) Now its “you can’t make me be old or retire” and we are subjected to endless Ameriprise financial commercials during sports on tv.
Don’t worry – in five or eight years you’ll get through the five stages and it will be “cool to be old”, because its ALWAYS cool to be a boomer. I predict the death planning and funeral home industry will be HUGE and Disney-fied in some weird way in about another 10-15 years. “What are you wearing to the wake?” will be the new catch phrase. Oh, and they’ll be special tax breaks for funerals up to $1 million.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
6 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:31 am
Muck About says:
I’d never let a neighbor starve as long as my own resources last.
But I’d be damned if I’d feed one if they don’t say “please” and “thank you”.
And I do my best to kill ‘em if they try and take it by force.
And fuck you, RE… You can eat at my house anytime if you promise to just talk about the weather.
MA
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
12 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:35 am
Kill Bill says:
The birth rate was higher per thousand before 1947.
See if WP doesnt screw this up
Or view it here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S.BirthRate.1909.2003.png
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:39 am
Maddie's Mom says:
“Let the mass Boomer die off begin”
Damn, Admin, now you went and hurt my feelings
Your profile of the “retarded Boomers” doesn’t fit my lifestyle at all, but I’m sure I still did plenty wrong, at least in someone’s opinion.
(I do have to agree on the mentality of many Boomers though. Unbelievably stupid. And arrogant.)
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:06 am
Chad says:
Wow! It is amazing the number of commenters who can’t fill there own time. You need to work for someone to TELL you what to do? Or, you would just sit around? If you can retire and don’t….well, that’s just crazy. I’m sure it would be a life lived if your tombstone said, “Good worker.” Not having control over your life is no way to live and that’s what a worker has…no control.
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
17th May 2011 at 10:09 am
Administrator says:
Maddie’s Mom
I didn’t mean you. I hope you live to 100.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:26 am
AKAnon says:
@Chad-Retirement is an interesting subject. Some folks thrive on it, some wither up & die. My father researches everything-when he was approaching (early) retirement age, he “interviewed” a bunch of his older friends and former colleagues. He concluded that there were two kinds of men, those who hated retirement and those who loved it. Considering his temperament, he figured he would love it, so he bailed out as early as possible, did some freelance work as a contractor when he felt like it, and hasn’t looked back. 75 now, and no regrets on retiring. He does have a decent pension (so far).
As for me, I have way more things I want to do than I have time to do them, and I am comfortable living modestly. I believe I would thrive on retirement. If, by some miracle, things don’t implode in the next few years, I will consider early retirement when the time comes. At 47 now, I still have a long way to go-I doubt the system will still be intact when I get there.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:53 am
Dragline says:
AKAnon, as usual, there are already plans to do away with the system before we get there. You’ll note the Ryan medicare plan (and others — not picking on that in particular) tend to grandfather in everybody born before 1956 to sweep up most of the boomers. You can bet that the year will eventually be moved to 1960 to cover all of them.
Its always the same screw-game to the younger generations, just with different pointy and blunt objects.
Oh, and by the way, our taxes will probably be raised because we are hitting our peak earning years so that they can give more tax breaks for old people expenses — especially golf carts, because its the American dream to own one when you get old.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:33 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@MA
Weather Only? As long as that includes Hurricanes, Tornadoes and Floods, I am OK with that
I also am quite sure you would share with others less fortunate than yourself, I don’t think that is true of everyone here though.
I also just find the whole “Look at me, I am such a BIG MAN this won’t TOUCH me” attitude to be ludicrous. I’m sure that is exactly how DSK thought when he stuck his pecker into the maid’s mouth.
Anyhow, if you only had to share with a couple of other people, you might be OK, the problem lies in 100:1 fractional reserve lending and the fact you really own very little to nothing of what you think you own. So all will be impoverished, and Da Goobermint will attempt to stave off anarchy by any number of possible means, however petty capitalistas keeping all their chips isn’t likely to be one of them. Treating the more likely organizational solutions that might be attempted is a much more complicated question.
RE
Like or Dislike:
4 
2
17th May 2011 at 12:39 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
New York Man Spends Life Savings Ahead of May 21 Doomsday
Published May 14, 2011
A New York man spent his entire $140,000 life savings advertising his prediction that the world will end May 21, the New York Post reported Friday.
Robert Fitzpatrick, a 60-year-old Staten Island resident, said he spent at least that sum on 1,000 subway-car placards and ads on bus kiosks and subway cars.
They say, “Global Earthquake: The Greatest Ever! Judgment Day May 21, 2011.”
In a self-published book, “The Doomsday Code,” Fitzpatrick said the Bible offers “proof that cannot be dismissed.”
“Judgment Day will surprise people. We will not be ready for it,” Fitzpatrick said in an interview with the newspaper. “A giant earthquake will render the earth uninhabitable.”
If you want to set an alarm clock, the quake will happen just before 6:00pm local time, he said.
“God’s people will be resurrected. It is also the day that God stops saving anyone,” he said.
Fitzpatrick hopes that he is one of the chosen ones, but he could not be really certain.
“There’s just a little doubt,” he said. “Most churches teach that if you just believe, you will be saved. It is not our choice. It is God’s choice.”
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:01 pm
TeresaE says:
Ah now, let’s not worry too much about the Boomers and their potential SS haircuts.
After all, many are finding out (like my father) that they now qualify for food stamps and extra help with their medical.
I just helped him fill out his aid form. This is what I’ve learned:
If you make less than $1700 a month (in Michigan – probably varies between states), you qualify for foodstamps (one or two people households).
If you speak Arabic or Spanish, the state will provide a free intrepretor and fill out the forms for you.
If you are a “refuge,” or a “foreign-national on a visa” or an illegal farm worker, there is help for you.
If you live in a slum, but manage to pay a $450 a month car lease, but have $10 in the bank and declared income of $15k from occasionally showing up at McDs, you qualify.
If you live with your “baby’s momma” but aren’t on the lease, she gets food stamps for you, and you get to keep 100% of your black market profits.
After I helped dad with the form, I first cried because my proud father is being reduced to taking welfare just so he can both pay for his pharmaceuticals AND eat, then I cried because (once again) the truth of how FUBAR we are smacked into me.
But, as I told dad, don’t feel guilty just suck everything you can. Cause there is NO WAY in hell there will be anything left for me in 30 years no matter what you do now.
Cripes, what a freaking world we have created. Cops kicking down doors, confiscations, jailings, fines, fees, penalties, blah, blah, blah.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
8 
1
17th May 2011 at 1:20 pm
Muck About says:
@TeresaE: My best wishes to you and your father and I’m sorry to hear about your problems.
MA
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
8 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:22 pm
Maddie's Mom says:
Admin,
Whew!!!
TeresaE,
Good to see your post. I thought you’d left TBP.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:29 pm
TeresaE says:
@MA, thank you. Just a momentary point of sadness. We all make choices, even if we chose to do nothing. Even though I know that to be true, my head doesn’t always directly control my heart (or tear ducts). Dad is, well, dad. He won’t listen to me about his health (nor his doc’s paycheck and loyalty) even with the proof of his pain. Same as dozens of others I know. Apparently being broke, feeling like shit and developing cancer is a small price to pay for “health.” But now I’m just bitching, sorry. And thanks again for your kind words.
@ Maddie’s Mom, thank you so much. Nope, not gone, just hiatus. Trying to limit my exposure to the truth with an eye on longevity. Seeing what is coming wears on a person. As I’m sure you, my little realist, know all too well. Well that and a trip to the hometown and life.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:44 pm
Maddie's Mom says:
TeresaE,
I can only imagine how hard that was for you and your father.
My MIL has been struggling financially for 5 yrs., since the passing of her husband.
I’m fairly certain she qualifies for food stamp assistance but would probably never accept it. The day may come when she has no choice either.
And yes, we are FUBAR.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:51 pm
Kill Bill says:
Teresa quite a few pharmaceutical companies offer free drugs thru Patient Assistance Programs.
http://www.rxassist.org/patients/default.cfm
You can enter the drug name here and see what programs your father might be qualified for.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 3:00 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“After all, many are finding out (like my father) that they now qualify for food stamps and extra help with their medical.”-Teresa
This represents the beginning of one of the most likely scenarios. Social Security and Welfare will over time be replaced by a lower but more pervasive Goobermint Dole, until the failure of Fiat in general. In the wake of that, you would likely see Goobermint rationing of food, fuel and housing. Many far flung suburbs will be shut down, with no power, water or sewage and then abandoned.
Such a stage oriented approach to the monetary system failure would probably stave off anarchy for quite a few years, could be 20 or even 30 before all the lights are out and you have a Stage 5 Orlov Collapse of society.
RE
Like or Dislike:
2 
2
17th May 2011 at 3:37 pm
Muck About says:
Only RE would take a personal note and stretch it into a doom-world trend. I’m sure PJ’s Dad will appreciate the fact that, in your opinion, he’s starting a trend.
MA
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:30 pm
Muck About says:
Sorry.. Meant TeresaE’s Dad and my second beer slipped me up… Apologies..
MA
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:31 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@Muck About
It happenned to tie in with stuff I was researching last night.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
17th May 2011 at 4:34 pm
Pirate Jo says:
Funny how the Silents were characterized as the “what, me worry?” generation. My parents are 68 and 69. My mom proudly announced that they have gotten back everything they ever paid into Social Security, and that in five more years they’d have “a really good return” on it.
I was born in 1970 and can relate to a lot of what Dragline is saying in his (or her?) posts.
Two things that happened in the past that I think contributed a lot to the current screwed-up state of affairs were the raiding of the Social Security trust fund and the departure from the gold standard. So I asked my mom if she remembered when those things happened and whether anyone objected to it at the time.
She said she had no idea. She didn’t read the news because she was too busy working and putting food on the table to have time to pay attention to stuff like that, and anyway there was no point to worrying about things you had no control over, anyway. In fact she chastised ME for spending too much time worrying about things I have no control over.
She is a Jehovah’s Witness who thinks Armageddon is going to come, God will kill all the bad people, and the planet will be turned over to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. She doesn’t worry about a thing because as far as she is concerned, she is all taken care of because she picked the right religion.
If you ask me, she is all taken care of because she’s always had a very vested interest in the status quo. It’s no wonder she has never voted in a single election. Why would she want to change anything about a system she has benefitted so much from?
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:49 pm
matt says:
I wish Saturday would just hurry up and get here already (5-21-2011)!
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:56 pm
Kill Bill says:
Come on, why would the boomers not be able to afford retirement when the currency has lost 96% of its value.
Those stupid boomers,
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:00 pm
Administrator says:
Matt
It figures the world would end on a weekend. I never catch a break. Why not a Monday?
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
6 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:02 pm
Kill Bill says:
Your right Jim.
It should end on Sunday. A day of rest.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:05 pm
AKAnon says:
Nope, world can’t end Saturday morning. Taking the kid & grandkids fishing.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:05 pm
Muck About says:
@PJ: One thing you can say about your Mom and Dad.. They raised a really smart daughter and taught her how to think for herself! I did the best I could and ended up 50/50. One got it and the other didn’t.
By the way, I’m one of those Silents you’re talking about and I NEVER read a Mad Magazine. Honest.
There are just most – in every generation – that just don’t get it, don’t care about it, don’t want to know ’cause it scares them or are in a permanent state of denial (or religiosity). My Mom was one of those – a converted Catholic – and I escaped with an almost whole mind in spite of it.
@RE: In that case, you are forgiven. (hiccup!)..
@RE: have you noticed that this weeks thread posts appear to be well above average for our little group of doomers? (Admin – of course, the article posts are supurfd – er – superb). Got some new people posting to threads which is great.
@AwholeDr. I do like your nome de plume. Right next to Hope@ZeroK…
MA
MA
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:06 pm
Kill Bill says:
Okay fine the world will end on monday morning because every workday is monday.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:15 pm
Pirate Jo says:
Thanks, MuckAbout.
What’s kind of funny is that for all my mom’s talk about being “too busy working” etc. – she hardly ever worked! For the vast majority of her life she has been a stay-at-home mom or a stay-at-home wife. And this is back in the day when kids didn’t have scheduled activities. We were turned loose in the playroom, the gates were put up to keep us in there, and she was off to do her own thing. It seems like she spent most of her time sewing or absorbing the Jay-ho propaganda.
Like you, at least I escaped with an intact mind.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:19 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@Muck About
Well above average in what respect? Total numbers? Number of new posters? Quality of posting?
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
17th May 2011 at 5:19 pm
llpoh says:
Admin – I am glad you get some fun out of this site. It would be easy to fall into total doom and gloom mode. Go ahead, poke away at the Boomers – it makes for a lot of commentary!
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:44 pm
Muck About says:
RE: Mostly quality of posting. I didn’t start drinking beer until late today (rarely at all) so that didn’t make me more mellow than usual, yet in running the threads, I sense a better than average set of comments across the board and probably a dozen never before heard from members.
Total numbers may be up slightly, but mostly the posts are better thought out and I found myself enjoying the cruisin’ more. What you think?
MA
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:47 pm
matt says:
Admin,
I spoke to the head of the “end of the world” program and he agreed to move it to Monday the 23rd.
You are welcome.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:48 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@MA
Definitely more new posters, as to quality, maybe a bit higher than usual also. Also Stuck is morphing into a Tribalist/Commie, which is interesting. LOL.
RE
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:54 pm
SSS says:
Dragline said, “Then when the boomer men started balding, it was all about Rogaine and Hair Club for Men. (Contrast — almost every Xer I know who is going bald just shaves his fucking head and gets on with life.) ”
My hair started to really thin out when I was in my mid-fifties and the “comb-over” look started to creep in. Fuck it, I said, and went out and bought a $15 set of electric hair clippers and gave myself a buzz cut. Been doing it for over ten years now and have saved a bundle on hair cuts, about $400 a year by my calculations. Do the math: that’s over 4 grand. Bonus: a fresh buzz cut in the middle of an Arizona summer feels like heaven.
Another reason why this Boomer ain’t hurting.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
5 
0
17th May 2011 at 5:59 pm
Dragline says:
@SSS You de exception that proves the rule. I’ve still got plenty of hair, but its turning a nice gray around the edges now. No Grecian formula for me, dammit — then again, that was really a silent gen thing along with “Centrum Silver” and other gentle aging products.
Two of my Millennial boys (the ones with the nice round heads) go for the buzz cut action and my wife is pretty mean with the clippers. They seem to behave a little better with shorter hair for whatever reason. Good stuff, Maynard!
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:49 pm
Kill Bill says:
The exception does not make a theory true.
It makes a uncertainty
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:54 pm
Kill Bill says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 6:55 pm
matt says:
SSS,
I started growing a beard, have you seen the price of razors lately?
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 7:07 pm
llpoh says:
SSS before buzz cut:
And after:
What a difference a good haircut makes!
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 7:25 pm
Muck About says:
@RE: That’s more than a morph for Stuckinstein. I’ll have to read things more closely. I think everyone has a duty to modify their status with new information and circumstances but a Commie/Tribalist?
With his sense of humor any tribe would kick him out for his irreverence and commies couldn’t stand his independence!
However, I will step back and carefully observe!
MA
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 7:48 pm
Administrator says:
SSS
I threw in the towel about 3 months ago. Avalon now gives me a buzz cut in the kitchen every few weeks. She also cuts the 3 boys’ hair. This is saving me about $1,000 per year.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 7:51 pm
Muck About says:
@PJ: You said, ” What’s kind of funny is that for all my mom’s talk about being “too busy working” etc. – she hardly ever worked! For the vast majority of her life she has been a stay-at-home mom or a stay-at-home wife.”
Holy Shitamoly…. I’m surprised a lightning bolt of extreme proportions didn’t Zap you in your tracks!
I know your feeling about children and not wanting any – and that’s great. You’re Mom went the other way, ended up with a great daughter (I don’t know if you have any sisters or brothers) and
w-o-r-k-e-d as a stay at home Mom.
My sweetie (of 54 years) told me when we got married that she was going to be a full time Mom. It took me years – years – to understand why and exactly how valuable and how much she had to work at it to make it a success. No desperate housewife here, just year after year of hard work, schooling the kids about half time, keeping me on the straight and narrow (not an easy task) and managing the fort when I was off 8000 miles away putting checks in the bank and having a ball. She was right there at home, fires burning, etc., making sure all was well when I got off that silver bird and walked in the door.
So even I take some umbrage at the above remark as if your Mom didn’t carry some weight in keeping things between the ditches on your way up to independence. She did a great job with you, so don’t knock it. You may not understand the why, but don’t knock it.
We all have to manage the best way we can and her way was different than yours. Doesn’t make hers any less important..
MA
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
7 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:03 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@MA
I’m not kidding you, Stuckey’s quoting Native Americans like Tea Baggers quote the Founding Fathers and listening to Cherokee Music over Coffee and Doughnuts in the morning. He actually came out in favor of no Private Property ownership of Land!
Stuckey has gone native! Here is a picture of him and Mrs’ Freud on vacation recently in the Dakotas
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
2
17th May 2011 at 8:21 pm
llpoh says:
RE – I am not sure you are representing Stuck’s position on land quite correctly.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:28 pm
Muck About says:
RE, WordPress screw you again! I was looking forward to nude pictures of Stuck and Ms. Freud galloping across the plains adorned in picturesque blankets chasing beavers up a creek!
I did get the reference he made to Cherokee Music – but that’s in the Smokies or Oklahoma depending on pre or post death marches. I missed the Private Property part but that lends great weight to your position of his migration from real person to someone on a “higher” plain!
I never liked the philosophy of private ownership of property either (primarily because with inheritance laws and multigenerational time lapse, it allows the accumulation of huge riches to a few chosen by birth) but the alternate is rape of the commons by all the low life’s and that’s even worse.
Damn, maybe he is going native! I can hardly wait to see a picture of him in a breech clout, waving a spear and screaming “Kill that cat!”.
MA
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:36 pm
Muck About says:
Sorry, that’s waving a spear and screaming ,” Kill Admin dumb ass cat!”
MA
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:38 pm
llpoh says:
RE – what Stuck said was “Yes, I realize that. Hey … no problem for me. The largest parcel I ever owned was a home with about 5 acres.” That does not in any way suggest he supports no private land rights, but rather suggests it wouldn’t hurt him personally.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:44 pm
SSS says:
matt
You bet I’ve seen the price of razors. I now shave only about every 4-5 days. Any longer and my face starts to itch.
llpoh
Those pictures of me are classified. Don’t know how you got a hold of them, but Homeland Security has been alerted to this egregrious breach.
Admin
Are you depositing the $1,000 a year savings for haircuts in Avalon’s 401(k) account?
I’m continually impressed with the people who visit TBP……..and comment, of course. We may be a bunch of knuckleheaded, shit-throwing monkeys, but stupid we ain’t. That particularly applies to the generally good choices we’ve made in the journey of life and making an effort to keep well informed. We occasionally have someone who falls outside those two parameters. The resulting responses aren’t pretty.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 8:56 pm
llpoh says:
Photo of TBPer when people agree with him/her:
Photo of same TBPer when someone disagrees:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
6 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:03 pm
Administrator says:
SSS
I’m using the $1,000 to buy Avalon 25 silver coins.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:05 pm
llpoh says:
Avalon will know that you are holding out on her. Silver is down to $36. She will hold you up by your heels and shake the other $100 out of you for sure.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:09 pm
Muck About says:
@SSS: I sent a note to JQ on that subject today. Why is it that TBP seem to attract knuckleheaded shit throwing monkeys that post interesting comments to articles? Bloody amazing to me but we do tend to attract those who have made a lot of the right turns along the way and aren’t afraid to let their opinions be heard and a lot of them are well thought out.
This week seems especially well occupied with interesting posts and good articles (thanks to Admin, of course) with a number of new posters which is always welcome.
If you go to FSO and click on “subscribers” and then on me, you’ll find you and I are strangely look alike as I’ve been shaving my head for 35 years, paying my wife weekly the savings so she’s a happy camper. She cut my hair for 20 years before that so I owed it to her! She’s got a better 401K than I do from haircut proceeds!
She never nicked me either! Nor complained about doing it. And rubbed lotion in afterward every time. What more could you ask?
MA
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 9:12 pm
AKAnon says:
Alright all you TBPers: hold hands, sing kum ba ya and pat each other on the back. lol.
MA, SSS & Admin-Good hair runs in my family. Might be gray or white, but still full. I’ll shave it when I get bald spot. Till then, I get a cut at Wal-mart (no shit) every few months. Eat yer hearts out.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:27 pm
AKAnon says:
RE Stuck’s recent conversion is amusing. But as resident flip-flopper, it’s not too surprising. When llpoh joins your merry pranksters I will know the end is nigh.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:29 pm
Maddie's Mom says:
@Muck About (8:03 p.m.)
Thanks for that MA. You beat me to it. I’m an “at-homer” and I couldn’t have said it any better.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:59 pm
llpoh says:
AKAnon – this will be the day I convert to REism:
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:08 pm
AKAnon says:
llpoh-Trust me, I wasn’t holding my breath. Just takin’ a good-natured dig at “RE’s posts are like a grad school education” Stuck. No harm, no foul.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:36 pm
llpoh says:
AKAnon – poor ol’ Stuck will never live that down. But don’t bother with subtlety – RE only understands 2×4.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:43 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@LLPOH
Stuck’s original post read:
““No tribe has the right to sell, even to each other, much less to strangers. Sell a country?! Why not sell the air, the great sea, as well as the earth? Did not the Great Spirit make them all for the use of his children?”
————– Shawnee Chief Tecumseh to General William Henry Harrison, 1810
Smart guy, that Tecumseh.”-Stuck
Stuck is endorsing as “Smart” the underlying philosphy behind no property ownership of the earth. To me, that is a ringing endorsement.
@AKAnon
If LLPOH came over to my side, I would drop dead on the spot.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
1
17th May 2011 at 11:43 pm
llpoh says:
RE – Well, now, that is a truly enticing offer. You promise? Bwahahahaha!
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:45 pm
llpoh says:
Sell a country is not the same. Quit spinning the words!
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 11:46 pm
Colma Rising says:
Let’s not get off subject, you wily boomers!
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
5 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:01 am
Colma Rising says:
“What does ‘I agree to premature termination’ mean?”
“Don’t mind that… just initial and sign and you’ll be just fine.”
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:06 am
AKAnon says:
Since we are sharing a TBP group hug moment (relatively speaking), I must confess to agreeing with RE on more than just choosing to live in The Last Frontier. I am more-or-less “full doom”, and I think many of RE’s predictions and warnings have merit. But I draw a line at private property rights and the notion that (real) capitalism is inherently evil. Reward for risk and effort seems fair to me. Reward w/o risk is crony-capitalism/fascism, i.e., what we largely have these days. Arguably, it has “always” been so at some level, but for most of American history, the ability to succeed through talent, hard work and moxie led to prosperity.
As far as Native American culture goes, my house is home to two Gwich’in Athabascans, a Koyukon Athabascan and a Yupik Eskimo. I don’t know jack about “Potlatch Economy”, but I have attended many potlatches, and have contributed my efforts at several. In my circles, “potlatch” is an event to honor the passing of a member of the native community, or a special event. It is indeed a sharing event. That does not preclude the participants from holding private property.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:07 am
AKAnon says:
OK, googled “potlatch” out of curiousity. Per wikipedia (admittedly iffy source), potlatch economy is based on potlatch ceremonies, including distributing gifts. This is consistent with my experience, except that “gifting” is limited to within the tribe/family/circle of friends. Of note is that potlatch isn’t about universal ownership of property, rather of gaining higher status or fulfilling obligations by distributing private property, which then becomes the property of the recipient. Within families, property is often treated as communal. Yet, individual or family property ownership is retained.
In my experience, other entities are “gifted” as well. E.g., songs and dances are frequently “gifted” to other tribes, drum groups or singing groups. I suppose this is comparable to passing copyrights to second parties for use or publication. Still, author retains ownership and is “credited” when the song is played in public.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:37 am
printmemoney says:
I’d be lying if I said I read all of the posts. My point is this…when my generation realizes what happened and that the pyramid scheme can’t go on anymore (because my generation didn’t have 8 kids to pick 5-6 winners from), you’ll get fucked boomers.
Not my parents, just those I haven’t taught how to use a gun
but we’ll all be fucked together….localize, get an understanding of morality, and get ready
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 12:45 am
Reverse Engineer says:
“RE – Well, now, that is a truly enticing offer. You promise? Bwahahahaha!”-LLPOH
Well, you would have to convince me of your sincerity by giving away all but $100K of your wealth a doing penance for you Sins working as a Missionary in the 30 Blocks of Squalorof course. Just saying it over the Internet wouldn’t quite cut the mustard. I feel pretty safe overall. LOL.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:03 am
Reverse Engineer says:
Oh also, if you can’t sell a Country, all the rest logically follows because there is no chain of Title to pieces of the country. The Chain of Title starts when the sovereign either buys or claims land as his own, then pieces it off. Tecumseh’s meaning is clear, he doesn’t view it possible for any person to sell the land, any more than you could sell the sea or the air. He says it is gifted by the Great Spirit (God) for use by ALL of his children, in other words it belongs to ALL men.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:12 am
printmemoney says:
Teresa –
not sure why you were crying…..helping your father out, nothing wrong with that
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:15 am
Colma Rising says:
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:18 am
llpoh says:
RE – you first! When you have proven yourself of worthy of followers by “giving away all but $100K of your wealth a doing penance for you Sins working as a Missionary in the 30 Blocks of Squalor of course”, then I will (maybe) follow suite. So far, you are talking a good game, but you are hanging onto the Picasso/Matisse/bearer bonds like they are a life preserver and you are a drowning man. Even if you just go work in the Thirty blocks for a few months, I will consider it! Come on, you know you want to!
Here is Prophet RE looking for followers:
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:27 am
Colma Rising says:
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:27 am
llpoh says:
RE – if you do a really good job, you may just make this fellow’s greatest prophets billboard:
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:34 am
Reverse Engineer says:
” Of note is that potlatch isn’t about universal ownership of property, rather of gaining higher status or fulfilling obligations by distributing private property, which then becomes the property of the recipient. “-AKAnon
The property being spoken of here is not land, its stuff like Pigs and Chickens, Tools, Clothing etc. In other words items of personal use which CAN be held as the property of an individual in a Potlatch economy. My personal definition of what can be held as private property is that which can be carried with you. If you add the strength of a few horses, which also could be your personal property in some situations, this could be quite substantial, particularly if Gold held its value. You could claim as your property 1000 lbs of gold pulled in a wagon you built with horses you traded your supply of gold for, which you mined up. You could not however use said gold to buy a really nice Log Cabin on a Lake because you can’t carry it with you and it sits on land that belongs to all.
In a Potlatch Economy there still are relatively “rich” people, you become rich by gaining status through your ability to produce off the resources and then gift what you produce to others. I suspect LLPOH could be a relatively rich guy in a Potlatch economy by his ability to organize and make productive use of the resources surrounding him, although he would have problem gaining status because he clearly doesn’t like giving anything away. LOL.
However, there is no requirement in a Potlatch economy that you give anything to any particular person, and no obligation to give anything to Slackers. Slackers will end up relatively poor in a Potlatch economy also, because nobody will give them anything and they won’t have anything to give back.
I don’t like lazy people any more than anybody else does, what I do not like is people claiming to own that which they cannot in principle own, the resources of the earth itself. That belongs to all. A Potlatch economy in abstract as I see it resolves most distribution questions better than Capitalism does. I cannot tell you for sure since I never lived under such an economy, at least not in this life. I do know FOR SURE though as a system Potlatch ran successfully a whole lot longer than Capitalism did, several thousand years at least, whereas Capitalism (such as you could claim it existed) only made it through a couple of centuries.
Anyhow, we have a failing system here and I would vote to give Potlatch a try, because Capitalism quite clearly failed, just about from the get go because it never was the Mythical Capitalism envisioned by ideologues, anymore than Communism as practiced anywhere was the Mythical Communism of ideologues.
RE
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:38 am
Colma Rising says:
A champion of the poor… a voice of the downtrodden… but the question remains…
Hath RE taken a vow of poverty?
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:39 am
llpoh says:
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:43 am
llpoh says:
Too late – we missed out chance:
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:47 am
AKAnon says:
And yet, members of the native community DO claim ownership to specific pieces of real estate. Perhaps this is westernised bastardisation of “potlatch economy”, but I know it to be a fact, at an individual, family, village and tribal level. Try hunting on Doyon land without written permission. The corporation members damn sure own that land, and prosecute interlopers vigorously
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:49 am
llpoh says:
AKA – one thing’s for sure, Native Americans have indeed learned the value of land, having had it stolen from them.
Like or Dislike:
3 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:52 am
Reverse Engineer says:
“And yet, members of the native community DO claim ownership to specific pieces of real estate. “-AKAnon
Modern bastardization of the concept. True Potlatch was made ILLEGAL once Property Law was enforced by the Cavalry here in the FSofA and the RCMP up in Canada. This occured in the mid to late 1800s in the last places here where it existed, in the Pacific Northwest and along the coast of Alaska.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 1:54 am
AKAnon says:
OK, let’s take your “cabin by the lake” (good title for a horror flick, eh?) example. Suppose I grant that you can’t “own” the land itself, but no one else is there when you arrive and no one has a pre-existing claim on the land. If you build that cabin yourself, with materials you pay for via your personal property (which you can carry yourself), does that cabin not belong to you? Are you morally obligated to share it with anyone who shows up and wants to occupy it? If they outnumber you, and want you to leave, are you obliged to vacate it? Suppose you go out for the day or the week, foraging for nuts & berries, and someone else takes occupancy in “your” cabin-is their claim equal to yours? If the cabin and the land it sits on cannot be owned by an individual, it sounds like you are advocating anarchy/survival of the fittest/most ruthless.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:03 am
Reverse Engineer says:
“Hath RE taken a vow of poverty?”-CR
No, I sorta took a vow of living average Middle Class in my 20s though. I did that when I quit Wall Street. That I ended up with more money than GOD is an accident of birth I never expected, and it sure does give me headaches these days, no doubt there. LOL.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:04 am
Reverse Engineer says:
@AKAnon
That is one of the finest questions ever posed to me on this website, I commend you for it. There are any number of other real good ones also that present quandaries of a similar type. large fishing boats which take several people to build and man are similar in nature.
The best answer I can give to this is that in most situations you are operating as a member of a community, not individually when you set up a homestead somewhere. The community in effect “leases” the land you put your cabin on to you for free. Your friends and neighbors agree to help you protect your cabin, as you will help protect theirs from invaders from outside your community. Again, No Man is an Island, you depend on each other to protect such structures and the aggregate land you inhabit as a Tribe.
It is just about impossible now to go out as an individual anywhere and set up a Doomstead you could protect yourself, in fact it has been pretty much impossible to do that since before the Europeans ever arrived here. Homesteaders who moved out onto the Frontier took a lot of risks doing that, and lots of them lost the bet also. They only really got the upper hand once they had the Cavalry of the Illuminati protecting their claims. I’ve been working on a Rant about this for the last few days.
So anyhow, it is a “survival of the fittest” game to engineer up Community protection of your resource base, and then how you distribute out living arrangements on that takes community cooperation. I sure would not set up a Doomstead out in the Yukon Territory even with just a few friends. You need enough people to protect and defend the totality of what you use as your resource base, and no fewer than a couple of 100 in my mind could do that, even in the most remote location.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:19 am
Colma Rising says:
RE:
The tribes of the Pacific Northwest, and most certainly the Plains, have always rigorously defended their hunting and fishing grounds from other tribes. The harsher the climate, the more brutal the xenophobia. Yokuts in California had food a plenty, and these bands rarely fought because the resources permitted peace.
Different culture, different setting… but resources were defended, just not codified as we would expect.
As for you Bolivian blood-money…
There are far worse things to have a headache over. (Insert smallest violin here).
Your withered, black lump of a heart would brighten should you go to the mine and give your stock to the workers… Let them have the headache.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:23 am
llpoh says:
Dammit AKAnon – you know you simply cannot ask RE questions. Something as simple as what time is it can engender a 5000 word response.
Like or Dislike:
1 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:26 am
Reverse Engineer says:
I’m keeping the responses short here LLPOH. I’m keeping it an order of magnitude lower. Nothing over 500 words so far in this thread.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:41 am
Reverse Engineer says:
@CR
Defending Property as a GROUP is not in question here. PRIVATE PROPERTY is the question, held by INDIVIDUALS, not Tribes. I do not question at ALL the rights of a GROUP of people to exercise property rights over a given patch of land. That is a Survival of the Fitest Game, and for along time those who ran the Industrial Paradigm held the upper hand in this, and so they took over most of the available resoures of the planet by virtue of having amore powerful Military protection arm.
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 2:45 am
StuckInNJ says:
LET’S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT
I am NOT a Communist. Given RE’s recent Hobson’s Choice, I chose Fascism.
I have NOT flip-flopped on Tribalism. I have liked the idea of it for a very long time. Did you know the Iroquois Indian had one of the most democratic systems of government on the planet? No slaves. Women had rights. The people TRULY decided. Leaders could easily be replaced if they did not serve the people.
Did you know the Founding Fathers actually studied and considered their ways before writing the Constitution? Madison found their way of governance to be waaay to liberal for his liking. Too bad for him, and us.
What I HAVE said is that Tribalism is totally unfeasible in a NON-homogonous society of 300+ million.
.
.
.
In terms of individual property rights I support it. But I could easily be convinced to set a limit on the acreage. Just to pick a number, let’s say 20 acres. I mean, why the fuck would a human being need more than 20 acres … besides greed? I would make exceptions for farmers and livestock.
I would strip corporations of all property rights except for their office/manufacturing facilities. You wanna rape the earth with your strip mining? Fuck you. The land belongs to the people. Get our permission first. If that makes me a Commie Bastard, tough shit.
And that’s that.
Like or Dislike:
2 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:13 am
StuckInNJ says:
Pic below has nothing to do with this post. Just found it looking for other things. I found it to be hilarious.
Like or Dislike:
4 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:14 am
StuckInNJ says:
AKAnon / RE
Google in Ocean Grove, NJ. Lovely town. I wrote a few mortgages there. NO ONE actually “owns” their property. They lease it from the township for 99 years.
But, that lease is a “defacto” ownership. No one would even dream of setting up shop as you (AKAnon) described it. They would be arrested.
I could be wrong but I see RE’s Potluck Economy, in terms of “ownership” working the same way.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:25 am
AKAnon says:
RE-Whether it is practical to build a dwelling as an individual, much less defend it as a Doomstead is not the question. The question is, if you do build it yourself (w/o exploiting others’ labor), is it morally yours, to occupy with or w/o whomever you choose, to (try to) defend from interlopers, etc.? If I read between the lines of your response, I think the answer is yes, you can own that building, but doing so is imprudent.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:51 am
AKAnon says:
llpoh-Looks like I got lucky (so far).
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 10:51 am
llpoh says:
RE – I told you so.
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 3:36 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@AKAnon
The question of defending a place you are living applies to rental properties and even tents on the beach. You always have the right to defend yourself from interlopers.
There are much more difficult questions than this to answer. If you build a Cabin and then die, does it automatically go to your children? If you decide to leave a Cabin behind to move somewhere else, can you give the Cabin to whomever you want to? If you give it to nobody, can anybody squat on it and make it theirs? What if 2 different people want to squat on it, who gets it? Wht if there is a big disaster in your community like a flood or earthquake, and your Cabin is the only one left standing? Do you have any obligation to shelter others whose cabins were lost? If you raise a couple of kids and add rooms to the cabin for them, but then they grow up and leave the rooms empty if there are people without Cabins in your community, are you obligated to give them one of the rooms?
As you can see, you can run into many philosophical quandaries when you approach this problem from the western mindset of individual property ownership. My guess is that natives didn’t think this way at all, because of the nature of their shelters. They generally were either temporary and mobile shelters, or they were large communal structures for many people. The Individual McMansion really did not exist for them. Nor will it I suspect for us in the future, although to be sure that outcome is far away at the moment.
RE
Like or Dislike:
1 
1
17th May 2011 at 4:00 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“What I HAVE said is that Tribalism is totally unfeasible in a NON-homogonous society of 300+ million.”-Stuck
I have never disputed that point, I agree with it completely. However NO system runs such large societies equitably, certainly neither Capitalism or Communism have succeeded in doing that.
Your Hobson’s Choice of Fascism was predicated on the assumption the Communists were bigger Mass Murderers, however I proved that in fact by percentage Hitler was the biggest Mass Murderer. You only picked it to ague with me anyhow
You obviously are Communist Sympathizer. Have you ever been, or has anyone you have ever known been a member of the Communist Party?
RE
RE
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
17th May 2011 at 4:16 pm