In my twelve years of Catholic schooling I had hundreds of hours of religion classes. I read the New Testament. I read all of Jesus’ best stuff. I’m pretty sure he was not a war monger. I think he preached turn the other cheek. So how is it that people who call themselves CHRISTians love war? They are drooling with anticipation of a conflagaration in the Middle East. They hate Muslims. Peace and love are antiquated notions to these people. If they come to power in this country, World War III will beckon. The more somone wears there religion on their sleave, the more dangerous they are. Rick Santorum is dangerous.
MILLIONS OF EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS WANT TO START WORLD WAR III … TO SPEED UP THE SECOND COMING
The Founding Fathers weren’t particularly anti-Islam.
But millions of Americans believe that Christ will not come again until Israel wipes out its competitors and there is widespread war in the Middle East. Some of these folks want to start a huge fire of war and death and destruction, so that Jesus comes quickly.
According to French President Chirac, Bush told him that the Iraq war was needed to bring on the apocalypse:
In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse who are prophesied to come out of the north and destroy Israel unless stopped. The Book of Revelation took up the Old Testament prophesy:
“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”
Bush believed the time had now come for that battle, telling Chirac:
“This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins”…
There can be little doubt now that President Bush’s reason for launching the war in Iraq was, for him, fundamentally religious. He was driven by his belief that the attack on Saddam’s Iraq was the fulfilment of a Biblical prophesy in which he had been chosen to serve as the instrument of the Lord.
And British Prime Minister Tony Blair long-time mentor, advisor and confidante said:
“Tony’s Christian faith is part of him, down to his cotton socks. He believed strongly at the time, that intervention in Kosovo, Sierra Leone – Iraq too – was all part of the Christian battle; good should triumph over evil, making lives better.”
Mr Burton, who was often described as Mr Blair’s mentor, says that his religion gave him a “total belief in what’s right and what’s wrong”, leading him to see the so-called War on Terror as “a moral cause”…
Anti-war campaigners criticised remarks Mr Blair made in 2006, suggesting that the decision to go to war in Iraq would ultimately be judged by God.
Bill Moyers reports that the organization Christians United for Israel – led by highly-influential Pastor John C. Hagee – is a universal call to all Christians to help factions in Israel fund the Jewish settlements, throw out all the Palestinians and lobby for a pre-emptive invasion of Iran. All to bring Russia into a war against us causing World War III followed by Armageddon, the Second Coming and The Rapture. See this and this.
This all revolves around what is called Dispensationalism. So popular is Dispensationalism that Tim LaHaye’s Left Behind series has sold 65 million copies. Dispensationalists include the following mega-pastors and their churches:
They are supported by politicians such as:
- Texas Senator John Cronyn
- Former House Minority Whip Roy Blunt
- Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay
- And others
Dr. Timothy Webber – an evangelical Christian who has served as a teacher of church history and the history of American religion at Denver Seminary and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Vice-President at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lombard, IL, and President of Memphis Theological Seminary in Tennessee – notes:
In a recent Time/CNN poll, more than one-third of Americans said that since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, they have been thinking more about how current events might be leading to the end of the world.
While only 36 percent of all Americans believe that the Bible is God’s Word and should be taken literally, 59 percent say they believe that events predicted in the Book of Revelation will come to pass. Almost one out of four Americans believes that 9/11 was predicted in the Bible, and nearly one in five believes that he or she will live long enough to see the end of the world. Even more significant for this study, over one-third of those Americans who support Israel report that they do so because they believe the Bible teaches that the Jews must possess their own country in the Holy Land before Jesus can return.
Millions of Americans believe that the Bible predicts the future and that we are living in the last days. Their beliefs are rooted in dispensationalism, a particular way of understanding the Bible’s prophetic passages, especially those in Daniel and Ezekiel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament. They make up about one-third of America’s 40 or 50 million evangelical Christians and believe that the nation of Israel will play a central role in the unfolding of end-times events. In the last part of the 20th century, dispensationalist evangelicals become Israel’s best friends-an alliance that has made a serious geopolitical difference.
***
Starting in the 1970s, dispensationalists broke into the popular culture with runaway best-sellers, and a well-networked political campaign to promote and protect the interests of Israel. Since the mid-1990s, tens of millions of people who have never seen a prophetic chart or listened to a sermon on the second coming have read one or more novels in the Left Behind series, which has become the most effective disseminator of dispensationalist ideas ever.
***
During the early 1980s the Israeli Ministry of Tourism recruited evangelical religious leaders for free “familiarization” tours. In time, hundreds of evangelical pastors got free trips to the Holy Land. The purpose of such promotional tours was to enable people of even limited influence to experience Israel for themselves and be shown how they might bring their own tour group to Israel. The Ministry of Tourism was interested in more than tourist dollars: here was a way of building a solid corps of non-Jewish supporters for Israel in the United States by bringing large numbers of evangelicals to hear and see Israel’s story for themselves. The strategy caught on.
***
Shortly after the Six-Day War, elements within the Israeli government saw the potential power of the evangelical subculture and began to mobilize it as a base of support that could influence American foreign policy. The Israeli government sent Yona Malachy of its Department of Religious Affairs to the United States to study American fundamentalism and its potential as an ally of Israel. Malachy was warmly received by fundamentalists and was able to influence some of them to issue strong pro-Israeli manifestos. By the mid-1980s, there was a discernible shift in the Israeli political strategy. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the Jewish state’s major lobbying group in Washington, D.C., started re-aligning itself with the American political right-wing, including Christian conservatives. Israel’s timing was perfect. It began working seriously with American dispensationalists at the precise moment that American fundamentalists and evangelicals were discovering their political voice.
***
Probably the largest pro-Israel organization of its kind is the National Unity Coalition for Israel, which was founded by a Jewish woman who learned how to get dispensationalist support. NUCI opposes “the establishment of a Palestinian state within the borders of Israel.”
***
In their commitment to keep Israel strong and moving in directions prophesied by the Bible, dispensationalists are supporting some of the most dangerous elements in Israeli society. They do so because such political and religious elements seem to conform to dispensationalist beliefs about what is coming next for Israel. By lending their support-both financial and spiritual-to such groups, dispensationalists are helping the future they envision come to pass.
***
Dispensationalists believe that the Temple is coming too; and their convictions have led them to support the aims and actions of what most Israelis believe are the most dangerous right-wing elements in their society, people whose views make any compromise necessary for lasting peace impossible. Such sentiments do not matter to the believers in Bible prophecy, for whom the outcome of the quarrelsome issue of the Temple Mount has already been determined by God.
Since the end of the Six-Day War, then, dispensationalists have increasingly moved from observers to participant-observers. They have acted consistently with their convictions about the coming Last Days in ways that make their prophecies appear to be self-fulfilling.
***
As Paul Boyer has pointed out, dispensationalism has effectively conditioned millions of Americans to be somewhat passive about the future and provided them with lenses through which to understand world events. Thanks to the sometimes changing perspectives of their Bible teachers, dispensationalists are certain that trouble in the Middle East is inevitable, that nations will war against nations, and that the time is coming when millions of people will die as a result of nuclear war, the persecution of Antichrist, or as a result of divine judgment. Striving for peace in the Middle East is a hopeless pursuit with no chance of success.
***
For the dispensational community, the future is determined. The Bible’s prophecies are being fulfilled with amazing accuracy and rapidity. They do not believe that the Road Map will-or should-succeed. According to the prophetic texts, partitioning is not in Israel’s future, even if the creation of a Palestinian state is the best chance for peace in the region. Peace is nowhere prophesied for the Middle East, until Jesus comes and brings it himself. The worse thing that the United States, the European Union, Russia, and the United Nations can do is force Israel to give up land for a peace that will never materialize this side of the second coming. Anyone who pushes for peace in such a manner is ignoring or defying God’s plan for the end of the age.
***
It seems clear that dispensationalism is on a roll, that its followers feel they are riding the wave of history into the shore of God’s final plan. Why should they climb back into the stands when being on the field of play is so much more fun and apparently so beneficial to the game’s outcome? As [one dispensationalist group's] advertisement read, “Don’t just read about prophecy when you can be part of it.”
ATHEIST WAR HAWKS MANIPULATE BELIEVERS TO BEAT THE DRUMS OF WAR
Leo Strauss is the father of the Neo-Conservative movement, including many leaders of the current administration.
Indeed, many of the main neocon players – including Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Stephen Cambone, Elliot Abrams, and Adam Shulsky – were students of Strauss at the University of Chicago, where he taught for many years.
The people pushing for war against Iran are the same neocons who pushed for war against Iraq. See this and this. (They planned both wars at least 20 years ago.) For example, Shulsky was the director of the Office of Special Plans – the Pentagon unit responsible for selling false intelligence regarding Iraq’s weapons of mass. He is now a member of the equivalent organization targeting Iran: the Iranian Directorate.
Strauss, born in Germany, was an admirer of Nazi philosophers and of Machiavelli. Strauss believed that a stable political order required an external threat and that if an external threat did not exist, one should be manufactured. Specifically, Strauss thought that:
A political order can be stable only if it is united by an external threat . . . . Following Machiavelli, he maintained that if no external threat exists then one has to be manufactured
(the quote is by one of Strauss’ main biographers).
Indeed, Stauss used the analogy of Gulliver’s Travels to show what a Neocon-run society would look like:
“When Lilliput [the town] was on fire, Gulliver urinated over the city, including the palace. In so doing, he saved all of Lilliput from catastrophe, but the Lilliputians were outraged and appalled by such a show of disrespect.” (this quote also from the same biographer)
Moreover, Strauss said:
Only a great fool would call the new political science diabolic . . . Nevertheless one may say of it that it fiddles while Rome burns. It is excused by two facts: it does not know that it fiddles, and it does not know that Rome burns.
So Strauss seems to have advocated governments letting terrorizing catastrophes happen on one’s own soil to one’s own people — of “pissing” on one’s own people, to use his Gulliver’s travel analogy. And he advocates that government’s should pretend that they did not know about such acts of mayhem: to intentionally “not know” that Rome is burning. He advocates messing with one’s own people in order to save them from some “catastophe” (perhaps to justify military efforts to monopolize middle eastern oil to keep it away from our real threat — an increasingly-powerful China?).
What does this have to do with religion?
Strauss taught that religion should be used as a way to manipulate people to achieve the aims of the leaders. But that the leaders themselves need not believe in religion.
As Wikipedia notes:
In the late 1990s Irving Kristol and other writers in neoconservative magazines began touting anti-Darwinist views, in support of intelligent design. Since these neoconservatives were largely of secular backgrounds, a few commentators have speculated that this – along with support for religion generally – may have been a case of a “noble lie”, intended to protect public morality, or even tactical politics, to attract religious supporters.
So is it any surprise that the folks who planned war against Iraq and Iran at least 20 years ago are pushing religious disinformation to stir up the evangelical community?
Conservative Christians were the biggest backers of the Iraq war. And the Neocons are catering to them to try to back them into war with Iran, as well.
I’ve recently seen a swarm of spam claiming that all Muslims are evil, that they want to take over the world and establish a Muslim caliphate, and that they want to nuke Iran. They misquote Muslims and use false statements to try to stir up religious hatred.
They are simply promoting the Straussian playbook: stir up religious sentiment – even if you are personally an atheist – to create and demonize an “enemy”, so as to promote war …
NOT A PROBLEM WITH A PARTICULAR RELIGION … BUT OF IMMATURITY
Most Americans confuse Zionism and Judaism. But many devout Jews are against Zionism, and Zionists can be Christian.
And as I’ve repeatedly noted, fundamentalist Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus are all very much alike, and often willing to use violence to spread their ideology … while more spiritually mature Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus are all much more tolerant and peaceful than their evangelical brothers:
As Christian writer and psychiatrist M. Scott Peck explained, there are different stages of spiritual maturity. Fundamentalism – whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Hindu fundamentalism – is an immature stage of development. There are peaceful, contemplative Muslim sects – think the poet Rumi the poet and Sufis – and violent sects, just as there are contemplative Christian orders and violent Christian groups (and peaceful and violent atheists).
While there are certainly some Arab terrorists, Islam cannot be blamed for their barbaric murderous actions, just as Christianity cannot be blamed for the Norwegian Christian terrorist – Anders Behring Breivik’s actions. University of Chicago professor Robert A. Pape – who specializes in international security affairs – points out:
Extensive research into the causes of suicide terrorism proves Islam isn’t to blame — the root of the problem is foreign military occupations.
The 9/11 hijackers used cocaine and drank alcohol, slept with prostitutes and attended strip clubs … but they did not worship at any mosque. See this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. So they were not really Muslims.
And even atheists like Stalin can be terrorists, or at least genocidal maniacs.
Indeed, all religions teach compassion, love and the Golden Rule. Likewise, atheism teaches respect for the individual, the most good for the most people, and helping everyone reach their human potential.
Some within each philosophy follow these teachings, and others want to kill everyone who doesn’t agree with them. The issue is not really the label of this religion or that, but of maturity and true spirituality and compassion.
Postscript 1: Neoliberals and Neoconservatives are very similar in many ways. And because Neocons are not conservative, nothing in this post is meant to criticize conservatism.
Postscript 2: Most evangelicals are not dispensationalists, and so do not want to bring on armageddon.
Troy says:
Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye, and Jerry Falwell are not dispensationalists. See the website discerningthetimespublishing.com for an accurate understanding of dispensationalism. All dispensationalism means is that God deals with people differently in different times.
We live in the dispensation of grace. People can be saved by trusting the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as payment for their sins. See I Corinthians 15:1-4.
I am a dispensationalist. I oppose the Iraq and Afghan wars. I believe in the pre-tribulational Rapture and the Second Coming, but nothing I do or the United States does has anything to do with when those events happen. God has set Israel aside, see Romans 11. The current state of Israel has no Biblical basis. Nothing special biblically happened in 1948 or 1967. God will deal with Israel again after the Bod of Christ is removed at the Rapture.
I oppose Jerry Falwell, Tim LaHaye, and Pat Robertson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Rick Santorum, the Republican party, the Zionist movement, and 99 percent of the evangelical movement as much as the administrator. But please don’t demean dispensationalism when your understanding of it is wrong.
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18th February 2012 at 3:44 pm
Troy says:
Also I am a fucking nut case
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18th February 2012 at 4:06 pm
Administrator says:
Troy
The article was written by Washington’s Blog.
I have no clue about dispensationalism and I really don’t care.
Your religion is your own. You are free to worship as you believe.
I will worship as I please.
I don’t want anyone pushing their religious beliefs down my throat.
Santorum and the rest the bible thumpers you mentioned want to foist their beliefs on the country.
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18th February 2012 at 4:07 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
More fairy tales and tin-foil hat theories, don’t make me laugh.
This article would suggest that there has been some super secret conspiracy of evangelicals goading the US government to war for the last 40 years. Poppycock.
How do you explain Viet Nam and Bosnia which were purely the product of a Democrat president?
That the publishing of the Left Behind series is some kind of plot to move the population to support war in the name of the Second Coming is beyond fantasy. Sheeit, there were tens of millions of Stephen King’s books sold in the same time frame and no one is out there trying to manufacture the Captain Tripps virus.
Sorry, but Professor Pape is a complete dhimmi stodge. Radical Islam has been on the march for 1000 years, way way before there were any “foreign military incursions”. The Islamic radicals go into battle waving their Korans and shouting religious slogans and their goal is to create the Global Caliphate. That is in their own words.
Oh, and mainstream church membership is at historic lows so I can hardly imagine that we are all going to be donning our Crusader outfits and marching on the Holy Land any time soon.
Sheesh.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 4:10 pm
Administrator says:
HZK
Pretty weak pathetic rebuttal.
Now you can go reread the Sermon on the Mount.
Is it one of your favorites?
I’m guessing not.
You’re not big on turning the other cheek.
I love selective Christians.
Hypocrisy in full display.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 4:13 pm
KaD says:
Christianity has become very perverted from its origin, just like Islam has. I’m not a member of either but I’ve read the Koran too. So should you, you might be very surprised as what is and isn’t in it.
I read somewhere that Vietnam had alot to do with the US government finding out there was a big underwater oil field off the shore of what was then French IndoChina. I believe oil has alot to do with why we’re in the Middle East too. As a president once said; “The American LIFESTYLE is not up for negotiation”.
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18th February 2012 at 4:32 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Jimbo: Pretty pathetic response to my post dude. You did not rebut one single of my assertions.
Just what I would expect of a mangy cur.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 4:52 pm
Kill Bill says:
Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye, and Jerry Falwell are not dispensationalist -Troy
No, they are theonomists.
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18th February 2012 at 4:59 pm
Administrator says:
I don’t consider hysterical emotional vitriol to be assertions. You back up nothing with facts, just your opinions.
You asked for links. You were provided links, but you ignore them because they contradict your ravings.
Assertions my ass.
I suggest you read a little of that Sermon on the Mount.
Faux Christians are amusing.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 5:05 pm
Kill Bill says:
And theonomists want to use the law to force their beliefs upon others.
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18th February 2012 at 5:12 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Jim:
??Hysterical emotional vitriol???? Are you kidding me? I thought my tone was fairly even and measured. Perhaps you are simply having problems with your reading comprehension.
You have simply refused to acknowledge the FACT that there is simply NO monolithic evangelical Christian movement taking us to WW3.
You have simply refused to acknowledge the FACT that among the numerous wars and brushfires on the globe currently, evangelical Christians are involved in precisely ZERO.
Please post some other ‘evidence” other than the ideological rantings of a left-wing loon.
Give it up Jim, your pathetic attempt to tie evangelical Christians to war mongering governments is laughable and no one seems to be buying into this.
I don’t know where you get off calling me a hypocrite here. I have’nt expressed any desire to go to war nor have I critized the Sermon on the Mount.
I remain the Big Dog.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 5:18 pm
Administrator says:
Hope after Administrator ruins her weekend and reveals her Christian hypocrisy.
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18th February 2012 at 5:27 pm
Axel says:
Hope, are u as hot as that chick?
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18th February 2012 at 5:36 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Axel: I am hotter.
@Admin: Exactly what “Evangelical Christian hypocrisy” are you talking about???
There is nothing in the Sermon of the Mount about pre-emptive war, true but totally irrelevant and so what.
Evangelical Christians and their beliefs are NOT behind the US war mongering.
The idea of pre-emptive war predates Christianity itself. Go read about all the wars in the Ancient World BEFORE there was any “foreign military excursions”. Sheesh.
Tying evangelical Christians to US warmongering and then labelling them hypocrites for ignoring the Sermon on the Mount, which is just one paragraph in the Bible, is ludicrious.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 6:05 pm
Administrator says:
HZK
Very humorous.
I watch your beloved governor up on stage at the debates and the hypocrisy is laughable. Did you vote for that tool? He holds a religous convention for rain. He invokes the name of God constantly. He portrays himself as true Christian. In the next breath he declares that he would send U.S. troops back into Iraq tomorrow. He will attack Iran. He will support anything the Jews decide to do in the Middle East. But he is a true CHRISTIAN. He doesn’t see the hypocrisy. What a dangerous dumbfuck he is. Texas is so lucky to have him. At least the people of Pennsylvania decided to get rid of the religious nutjob Santorum. You morons keep re-electing a dumbfuck.
The Sermon on the Mount is the direct word of CHRIST.
You, Perry, Santorum and the rest of the neo-con faux Christians are the biggest hypocrites on earth. Convenient Christians. Invoke his name when discussing abortion or contraception, but ignore his EXACT words when it comes to warmongering and murdering Muslims.
It’s amusing to watch.
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18th February 2012 at 6:22 pm
Zara says:
I’ll just say I doubt religion had anything to do with Dubya’s lust for Iraq. My recollection is that he really isn’t religious at all but merely feigned it upon advice that it would be good for his political career when he was planning to run for governor.
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18th February 2012 at 6:31 pm
Administrator says:
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18th February 2012 at 6:43 pm
Administrator says:
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18th February 2012 at 6:45 pm
Administrator says:
Jesus says “Let’s go get those Muslims before they get us.”
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18th February 2012 at 6:47 pm
llpoh says:
“Direct words of Christ”? Bwahahahahahahahaha! Written by whom? Written when? Translated by whom? Written perhaps hundreds of years AD, by someone who wasnkt there, translated by clerks hundreds of years later. Even then – where is the original script.
BTW – anyone have any concrete historical evidence he even lived?
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18th February 2012 at 6:52 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@jim: HAHAHAHHA. Trying to put me in the same place as Perry, good try, no cigar, thanks for playing.
Yes, I did vote for him. His genius in making Texas an economic powerhouse AND a magnet for citizens seeking prosperity (note our increased number of Congress seats) is to STAY OUT OF THE WAY.
Of course, having our legislature meet every OTHER year certainly helps. If we could just get those damn Californians and Northeastern refugees to STFU about their total FAIL when it comes to running a state, we would be even MORE awesome.
Given the 100 year drought Texas just went through, during which we lost 3/4 of our cattle herd, yeah, a little prayer for rain sounds okay to me!! Seems to have worked because we are ahead of our rain amount for Jan/Feb, heh.
You still have not explained where the hypocrisy comes in.
*****crickets*****
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 6:55 pm
Zara says:
HZK, I can’t fathom putting the words “genius” and Rick Perry in the same sentence. But what do I know, I’m an Oregonian.
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18th February 2012 at 7:02 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Zara: It was sarcasm.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 7:08 pm
Administrator says:
HZK
You seem to be missing the hypocrisy gene. It allows you to see your own hypocrisy. You should get yourself tested.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 7:14 pm
Administrator says:
llpoh
Don’t make me run your mangy cur ass off this site again.
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18th February 2012 at 7:16 pm
llpoh says:
It is impossible to be a perfect Christian. It is impossible to fully know the intent of some statements attributed to Christ. For instance “turn the other cheek” likely referred to the habit of higher class individuals to backhand slap lower class, and the offer of the other cheek was an invitation to an open-handed slap, which was forbidden lest the lower class be able to respond with impugnity. It has also been argued that it means to totally submit to all agression – which I doubt any readers would accept as viable.
All Christians are hypocrits in that all have sinned. But remember the bit about castig the first stone. It is the attempt that counts.
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18th February 2012 at 7:22 pm
llpoh says:
Admin – very funny! A 500 year old sheet in response! But you knew that, which is what makes it legitimately funny.
BTW – I didn’t get run off. I took a short hiatus as I went overboard once and you do not deserve that. Well, maybe just a little you do. But I respect the site and do not ever want to damage it.
Those poor nuns – twelve years of you must have tested their patience.
Those of you thumbing down my historically accurate comments above – bite me. If you are too entrenched in your position to understand that there is a lot of room for interrpretation in the Bible and that for such an important historical figure no history exists even tho the Romans were great record keepers, you are too dense to argue with.
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18th February 2012 at 7:36 pm
Administrator says:
llpoh
Interpret this:
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
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18th February 2012 at 7:42 pm
SSS says:
Hope
You’ve got Admin on the ropes. Move in and finish him off. When I crushed him in a debate about the 1954 coup in Guatemala, he started flopping around like a fish out of water, changed the subject, and claimed the CIA was responsible for 200,000 deaths in Guatemala’s civil war against leftist rebels. Be prepared for Admin to pull the same shit with evangelical Christians. Read on. Especially the last sentence.
Efrain Ríos Montt remains one of the most controversial figures in Guatemala. Ríos Montt is best known outside Guatemala for heading a military regime (1982–1983) that was responsible for having defeated the guerrillas through the beans for guns program, starting the end of Guatemala’s 36-year civil war. The war ended with a signature of a peace treaty in 1996. The civil war pitted left-wing rebel groups against the army, with huge numbers of Mayan campesinos caught in the crossfire. At least 200,000 Guatemalans were killed during the conflict, making it one of Latin America’s most violent wars in modern history.
In 1954, the young officer played a minor role in the successful CIA-organized coup against President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán. Following the coup, Ríos Montt rose swiftly through the military. In 1970, he became a brigadier general and chief of staff for the Guatemalan army.
After losing a bid for the presidency, Ríos Montt denounced a “massive electoral fraud”, blaming Catholic priests who had questioned the mistreatment of the Catholic Mayans, and claimed that the priests were leftist agents. In 1978, he left the Roman Catholic Church and became a minister in the California-based evangelical/pentecostal Church of the Word; since then Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have been personal friends.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 7:58 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@SSS: I know. Admin just can’t admit defeat. We just have to beat him into submission, heh.
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18th February 2012 at 8:04 pm
SSS says:
Hope lands a solid right jab to Admin’s snoot.
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18th February 2012 at 8:16 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@SSS: Well, I think I’ve got him on the ropes, have’nt heard from him lately. Probably having a great time with Avalon and the kids.
Should I show him mercy???
Aaaahhh, an ethical dilemma.
WWJD???
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18th February 2012 at 8:18 pm
Administrator says:
SSS joining the HZK beatdown and still using his wikipedia history to desperately prove that CIA coups in sovereign countries are how the great beacon on the mountaintop should operate. Those 200,000 dead Guatemalans must really weigh heavily on his conscience. The CIA calls that collateral damage. Communism had to be defeated.
HZK and SSS – The hypocrisy twins.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 8:44 pm
Administrator says:
Which of you fuckers thumbed down the Beatitudes?
Jesus will smite you with a lightning bolt.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 8:45 pm
llpoh says:
Admin – all good stuff if you are a believer. However, I think the Golden Rule just about covers it for me. The eight blessings are meant to promise good things to those that get covered in poo in this life. It is great to think that all your suffering will be rewarded eventually. Better than nothing I guess.
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18th February 2012 at 8:47 pm
Administrator says:
Are HZK and SSS still buzzing around on this thread?
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18th February 2012 at 9:08 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Admin: Face it, your posting has been an Epic Fail.
But, in the best tradition of Jesus Christ, our Lord, I forgive you.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 9:15 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
Admin,
‘Twas I who thumbed your Beatitudes.
If there is a Jesus let the smiting begin…It would actually prove many things to me …or not
Hang on … I’ll let you know in a little bit.
This fucking boomer is waiting but it ain’t going to happen.
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18th February 2012 at 9:19 pm
Administrator says:
HZK’s version of a beatitude:
Blessed are the peacemakers, unless we’re dealing with Muslim fuckers, or Iranians who might develop a nuclear bomb, or dictators we don’t like, or whoever Dick Cheney hates this week,
For they shall be called neo-con sons and daughters of God.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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18th February 2012 at 9:28 pm
Administrator says:
Hope
Is that you stil buzzing around this thread?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 9:30 pm
AWD says:
Funny shit. We live in a no God-less country, where the seven deadly sins are not only practiced, they are encouraged, sanctified, and blessed by our population. And instead of looking at what a POS our country has become, we bomb and kill other people we label as ‘devils” when we ourselves are becoming aligned and lead by devils. Our multi-cultural, progressive society is so fucking lost in greed, consumerism, gluttony, sloth, voyeurism, banality and ignorance that it’s spirit is all but dead. Any wonder why our country is all but dead. As the last gasp why not end the world? At the the “third world” will survive.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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18th February 2012 at 9:43 pm
Stucky says:
llpoh — I voted thumbs up on all your posts
HZK — Christianity has been at war with Islam since its inception. Sometimes it’s a real physical war. Sometimes it’s a war of ideas. But it has been and always will be a war. The Bible says Christians will win in the end. The Koran says Muslims will win in the end. There can be no reconciliation ‘tween the two.
Jim — you post all the “peace loving” verses from Jesus. There are many verses which are less, ummm “peaceful”. Don’t make me give you a theology lesson. lol Just google them. There are many — the whole idea of “just war” is based on them.
And lets not forget Christian sbelieve in the WHOLE Bible — meaning, let’s include the Old Testament as well. Lots and lots and lots of nice God-sponsored wars and killings throughout. Can’t let a good war story go to waste, can we??
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18th February 2012 at 9:59 pm
llpoh says:
Stuck – you are wisest of all,
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18th February 2012 at 10:05 pm
SSS says:
“In my twelve years of Catholic schooling I had hundreds of hours of religion classes. I read the New Testament. I read all of Jesus’ best stuff. I’m pretty sure he was not a war monger. I think he preached turn the other cheek.”
—-Admin’s intro
Ok, gloves off. This article is a total hit job and so horribly slanted, narrowly focused, and riddled with misrepresentations and falsehoods that its difficult to know where to begin. All to “prove” an absurd point that evangelical Christians are stirring the pot for WWIII. Let’s begin with the very first sentence, “The Founding Fathers weren’t particularly anti-Islam.”
For Pete’s sake, the Founders weren’t particularly anti-anything when it came to religion. Says so in the Constitution. But nearly ALL of them were devout Christians. Liberals love to point out that Thomas Jefferson owned a copy of Quran. So fucking what. What president ordered the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps to go kick some Muslim ass on the Barbery Coast in North Africa? Thomas Jefferson!!!!
But let’s skip to another religion that doesn’t exactly have a shining history over the past 1,000 years when it comes to war and “turning the other cheek.” Such as:
Pope Urban II’s call in 1097 for a crusade to take back the Holy Land. Worked. For a while. Muslim Jerusalem fell to Catholic (there were NO OTHER Christian denominations at the time) armies in 1099. Numerous crusades and wars to follow for nearly 300 years. Blood all over.
Ferdinand and Isabella were poster children for “turning the other cheek.” It was known as the Spanish Inquisition. The Catholic version of a tailgate party. Smacking real-life pinatas, drinking actual sangria (Spanish for blood), and playing twister, dungeon version. Fun was had by all.
Enough. Let me close with just one of Admin’s intro sentences, “I read all of Jesus’ best stuff.” So did I, bro. Never has any human being who has ever graced this Earth with his presence been so misquoted, misinterpreted, misused and abused. I continue to shake my head in disbelief at what has been done in HIS name.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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18th February 2012 at 10:28 pm
Administrator says:
SSS
Thanks for proving my point of Christian Evangelical hypocrisy of wanting to invade Muslim countries in the name of Jesus. It’s been going on for centuries and continues to this day.
Well done. Now you can go back to the Lawrence Welk show.
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18th February 2012 at 10:33 pm
Administrator says:
SSS
I suggest you read American Theocracy by Kevin Philips. Oil and Religion are what drive this country and the world into conflict.
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18th February 2012 at 10:35 pm
Colma Rising says:
I’m down with the folks who eat bacon.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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18th February 2012 at 10:36 pm
Zara says:
SSS, you left out the Catholic Church’s centuries long war against herbal medicine (otherwise known as witchcraft).
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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18th February 2012 at 10:46 pm
Kill Bill says:
Hope, Is that you stil buzzing around this thread? -admin
I see admin has figured out animated GIF images.
Ennyhoo, FIRE BACK!!
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18th February 2012 at 10:50 pm
Kill Bill says:
I read all of Jesus’ best stuff. -SSS
Really? AFAIK that was all written by onlookers.
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18th February 2012 at 10:53 pm
ron says:
Well the navy is already there,and its been being built up for a while.I think it could send our country into chaos.and Its beyond the average persons ability to know the ways of God.
Ron Paul is the only rational sounding person out of the republicans.
The muslims are like fire to our gasoline,we dont mix well.
I just dont see the mess in Iran ending well.
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18th February 2012 at 10:58 pm
Kill Bill says:
Panetta has decided that Iran is not producing wmd.
The focus is now Syria,
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18th February 2012 at 11:06 pm
SSS says:
Admin
Thanks for starring as George Armstrong Custer in this TBP movie version of the Battle of Little Bighorn. Also starring:
Hope as Sitting Bull
Llpoh as Crazy Horse
Stucky as Dull Knife
And me, SSS, as the meanest motherfucker on the battlefield
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18th February 2012 at 11:12 pm
Kill Bill says:
And me, SSS, as the meanest motherfucker on the battlefield -SSS
Hmnn
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18th February 2012 at 11:18 pm
JR says:
Articles like this indicate a literally and truly corrupt and dishonest mind.
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18th February 2012 at 11:42 pm
KaD says:
I want to see the OTHER beatitudes. The ones the Administrator wrote a while back. The ones that all started with F*** (someone).
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18th February 2012 at 12:28 am
Stucky says:
I was at first miffed at being called Dull Knife. I thought you were saying I wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
But thank god/allah/buddha/whatever for google. Turns out Chief Dull Knife was a great Northern Cheyenne warrior, also known as Morning Star.
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18th February 2012 at 12:38 am
Stucky says:
Fuck. Hit enter too soon.
Here is a picture of him. Damn. We could be brothers.
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18th February 2012 at 12:40 am
SSS says:
Stucky
Thanks for taking time out to see what I said. Calling you Dull Knife wasn’t an insult. Yes, he was a great Northern Cheyenne chief, as you found out.
Hell, I assumed the role of Hunkpapa Sioux Chief “Low Dog.” But you have to get past the names. That’s why I love the history of the Northern Plains Indian Wars. It is just so stunning, so surreal.
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18th February 2012 at 1:20 am
Colma Rising says:
A more accurate depiction
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18th February 2012 at 1:59 am
printmemoney says:
@hope
if you voted for “the texas one” it just shows how brainwashed you are….
if you really think that the evangelicals aren’t itching for war, it also shows how brainwashed you are
now that you realize your own handicaps (i.e. being brainwashed) maybe you can have an intelligent discussioun about war
btw, i bet you want to be in afghanistan and are excited about the hyped up strike on iran
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18th February 2012 at 3:27 am
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@printmoney:
If you really think that evangelical Christians are all out there itching for war, sitting around in prayer circles chanting “Kill muslims for Jesus”, it just shows how brainwashed YOU are about the lefty-progressive anti-God narrative. Plus you clearly don’t know any.
If you really think that voting for a particular political candidate has anything to do with a person’s spirituality, it just shows who brainwashed YOU are by the lefty-progressive narrative that spiritual people march lock step with their spiritual “masters”. I forgive your bias here as it is from the LEFT that we get the lack of tolerance and stifling of dissent.
If you think that anybody who is concerned about the rise of radical Islam is in favor of going to war, you are simply too stupid and intolerant to converse with.
And for the record, I would prefer the US to develop its own energy resources and get the hell out of MENA and Affie. The thought of war with Iran terrifies me because I greatly fear it will be the trigger that crashes the global economy.
You need to get out more.
And wash your brain of its stupid ASSumptions.
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18th February 2012 at 12:17 pm
AWD says:
“Don’t blame God (or Jesus) for religion”
“Religion is men trying to control other men”
Stucky certainly isn’t the dullest knife on TBP.
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18th February 2012 at 12:24 pm
Stucky says:
HZK, a.k.a. Ms. Sitting Bull, is on the warpath!!
HZK, not my place to tell you how to react, but don’t sweat the small stuff… and it’s all small stuff.
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18th February 2012 at 12:25 pm
Stucky says:
SSS — The above babe (HZK?) has no nipples exposed. I’m trying sooo hard to make you happy.
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18th February 2012 at 12:27 pm
AWD says:
This is were the Stuckendullenkniffen went to school.
SSS does background checks on all TBP members, FYI.
“Dave” gets the TBP dull knife award.
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18th February 2012 at 12:32 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Stuck:
I am just pissed off that SOME people want to blame war on a particular group of people, in this case evangelical Christians, while ignoring the stupid policies of our fed.gov which are sure as shit taking us to war.
(And most of those policies are liberal-progressive-greenie (LPG) ones too. And it is the LPGs that think it is a bunch of evangelical Christians promoting war!!!)
Oh well, I guess as our country goes over the cliff we will be pointing fingers and shouting at each other and be smashed on the rocks together. Then we will be truly equal – the lib wet dream.
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18th February 2012 at 12:34 pm
Administrator says:
The Wisdom of a Christian Evangelical Warmonger (Texas sure has its fair share of dumbasses):
“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.” –Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
“If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.” –Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000
“We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories … And we’ll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven’t found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they’re wrong, we found them.” –Washington, D.C., May 30, 2003
“Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.” –speaking underneath a “Mission Accomplished” banner aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, May 1, 2003
“I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job.” –to a group of Amish he met with privately, July 9, 2004
“I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we’re really talking about peace.” –Washington, D.C. June 18, 2002
“So what?” –President Bush, responding to a an ABC News correspondent who pointed out that Al Qaeda wasn’t a threat in Iraq until after the U.S. invaded, Dec. 14, 2008
“Can we win? I don’t think you can win it.” –after being asked whether the war on terror was winnable, “Today” show interview, Aug. 30, 2004
“The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.” –Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001
“I don’t know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.” –Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” –State of the Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003, making a claim that administration officials knew at the time to be false
“See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.” –Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005
“Oh, no, we’re not going to have any casualties.” –discussing the Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson in 2003, as quoted by Robertson
“The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones who attacked us in America on September the 11th.” –Washington, D.C., July 12, 2007
“You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror.” –interview with CBS News’ Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006
“I couldn’t imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah.” –at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001
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18th February 2012 at 12:54 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
@Admin:
Well, there you go again.
Taking things out of context, assuming that because I am from Texas that I agree with those things and morphing that into some strange theory about evangelical Christians and war.
Oh, and the dumbass comment is really classy. ***cue eyeball rolling***
War is about killing people and taking their stuff. It violates two of the most basic tenets of civilization, at least civilzation based on Judeo-Christian principles. To get people to do that or go along with that you have to appeal to “higher” things.
You can invoke Allah, Jesus, Lebensruam or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whatever.
It is also handy to have some kind of scapegoat when the war effort goes bad.
That is all it is.
On behalf of His Noodliness, I forgive you.
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18th February 2012 at 1:20 pm
Thunderbird says:
I don’t expect to see a second coming until there is a massive change in consciousness in the herd by way of an unexpected global natural disaster caused by nature. One has to have a conscience to read, understand, and practice the teachings of Jesus. Most of the population of the US don’t have a conscience or lost it. This country is in a mess because the people lost both their personal and national conscience. Until this changes things are not going to get better nor will there be a second coming. If Jesus did appear he would be censored like Ron Paul is being censored. People today call themselves christians because it is fastionable; not because they are. My observation is most people really don’t know who they are.
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18th February 2012 at 1:34 pm
Stucky says:
HZK
Accusing ALL Evangelical Christians (ECs) of wanting war is so much hyperbole. It’s dishonest.
On the other hand, to deny that quite a few ECs support exactly such a position is also less than honest.
Ever heard of Pastor Hagee?? (and many of his ilk?) He wants to bomb Iran … now!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDh1Vr7qajA
ECs — (and for this purpose I shall label them as Christians who believe in a literal translation of Revelations) — absolutely, positively want ALL those prophecies to come to pass. Without any doubt whatsover they all want Jesus to come back ASAP. And if Jesus’ return means lots of wars, deaths, pestilence, destruction, etc etc (and it does) …. so be it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6PicXSPhzw
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18th February 2012 at 2:00 pm
IndenturedServant says:
HZK said “If you think that anybody who is concerned about the rise of radical Islam is in favor of going to war, you are simply too stupid and intolerant to converse with.”
+10,000
I_S
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18th February 2012 at 2:09 pm
llpoh says:
Hey Dull Knife – what is with the peace pipe? It is time to scalp someone around here. Scalp first, negotiiate later.
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18th February 2012 at 3:15 pm
Administrator says:
llpoh
You have to admit, Jesus was a wise man. This is my favorite Jesusism:
“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
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18th February 2012 at 4:09 pm
llpoh says:
To me, the defining quality of Christianity is that it promotes kindness towards enemies as well as friends. That is a tremendously charitable position, especially for the times.
I suppose obtaining great wealth has frequently seen people commit great sin. So it was. So it is. So it will be. But it isn’t always so. The people I know who have great wealth have not obtained it dishonestly. Mostly they inherited it. Which doesn’t sit real well with me – transition from one generation to another of great wealth seems a sure and certain means of creating an elite class. But they did not steal it. But then I do not know too many investment bankers.
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18th February 2012 at 4:34 pm