Damn!!! I was about to fork over $60,000 for a Tesla S Alpha that can go a full 230 miles before being plugged into an electrical outlet. I better hurry before this piece of shit company goes belly up like Solyndra. I wouldn’t recommend that Obama become a stock analyst after he’s done ruining the country. Not only will the $465 million taxpayer loan never be repaid, Obama hands over a $7,500 tax rebate to all the rich fucks who want to be the 1st in their Greenwich Connecticut neighborhood to drive a Tesla. Only in America.
Tesla shares tank; here’s one more reason why
Tesla’s fall triggered a Nasdaq’s short-sale circuit breaker late in the session.
Sure, its slower-than-expected ramp-up of its new Model S sedan caused it to pare back some of its financial targets, but Tesla still plans to hit its production mark of 400 Model S sedans per week by the end of the year.
- Tesla Motors
- Model S Alpha
“As our main focus is on quality, we have methodically increased our Model S production at a rate slower than we had earlier anticipated,” the company said. Tesla said backlogged orders for the Model S remain strong.
It’s also diluting the value of its stock by setting plans to sell 4.34 million additional shares in a follow-on offering. But CEO Elon Musk is interested in buying up to $1 million of those shares, which is a plus.
The Palo Alto, Calif., company said it’s in talks to amend its $465 million U.S. government loan granted in 2009 under a Department of Energy (DOE) program to boost development of advanced technology.
The company said it’s now drawn down the entire dollar amount of the loan. This month, it amended its funding requirements to postpone until Feb. 15 a $14.6 million pre-funding payment originally due on Oct. 15 of this year. It also agreed to make an additional pre-funding payment of up to $14.5 million for each quarter beginning on June 15, 2013.
“Based on our current financial forecast, we currently anticipate that if we do not raise the proceeds from this (stock) offering and do not otherwise adjust our operations accordingly to amend the DOE Loan Facility, we may not be compliant with the current ratio covenant for the quarter period ending March 31, 2013,” the company said. It added it’s, “currently working cooperatively with the DOE” to obtain these and other amendments.”
Tesla, which points out it’s dependent on the U.S. loan, remains poised to roll out the Model S sedan on target in coming months despite the current setback. So it’s likely to pay back its loan from Uncle Sam. Even with Tuesday’s share drop, Tesla’s stock now trades at about $28 a share, well above the $17-a-share price of its initial public offering on June 29, 2010. That means that Wall Street still places more value in the company now than it did some 27 months ago.
But these moves to renegotiate its loan may raise some red flags among investors seeking to avoid another Solyndra — the solar startup that went bankrupt last year after getting more than $500 million in government-backed loans. Certainly, delaying a loan payment isn’t a good thing if you own a house, let alone a car company.
It’s not easy launching a new automobile venture, especially in the middle of a moribund economy. Tesla still ranks as the first publicly-traded company to try it in the U.S. in decades. And the road so far has been bumpy.
– Steve Gelsi
llpoh says:
“But these moves to renegotiate its loan may raise some red flags among investors seeking to avoid another Solyndra”
Ya think?
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25th September 2012 at 8:27 pm
card802 says:
Obama, venture capitalist extraordinaire….
How powerful it must make him feel to throw away other peoples money, then just take some more and throw more away, then take some more and throw that away.
The media doesn’t care, his followers don’t care, so why not.
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25th September 2012 at 8:52 pm
youcanthavemyglock says:
865+ $million in total losses, not bad for self sustainable alternative energy…. electric cars are a joke, apparently giant coal fired power plants and super inefficient old grids to create and transport electricity are considered environmentally friendly now.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/09/25/tesla-curbs-forecast-due-to-model-s-issues-losses-total-864-9m/
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 9:09 pm
AWD says:
They need to start importing and selling cocaine, like John DeLorean.
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25th September 2012 at 9:25 pm
John A says:
Everything that Obama touches turns to shit. Our incumbent president isn’t doing as well in the major polls as one might think.
http://unskewedpolls.com/
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25th September 2012 at 9:38 pm
SSS says:
“Our incumbent president isn’t doing as well in the major polls as one might think.”
—-John A
Interesting link. It shows Romney ahead of Obama in the polls, and Obama way down in approval ratings. That’s not what I’m reading. What’s this “unskewedpolls” website basing their information on?
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25th September 2012 at 11:15 pm
Ron says:
Yeah lets build electric cars and shut down coal power plants.My dad found out in the winter the prius batterys arent worth a shit and you average around twenty eight MPG.
Also they wanted 47000 for the newest model prius.It would be nice if we could get cars with diesels like europe.
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25th September 2012 at 12:41 am
AKAnon says:
SSS quotes: “Our incumbent president isn’t doing as well in the major polls as one might think.”
—-John A
SSS says: Interesting link. It shows Romney ahead of Obama in the polls, and Obama way down in approval ratings. That’s not what I’m reading. What’s this “unskewedpolls” website basing their information on?
I don’t know who to trust. That’s not really true-I trust essentially no one. The MSM and MS polling organisations know damn well that their “news” creates news-i.e., outcome. If Obama was really and truly ahead in the (unbiased) polls, they would report that he was ahead. If Obama was not ahead, they would still report that he was ahead. The reports are a given, the facts are not. Despite Romney’s gaffs (and don’t think for a minute there isn’t a bounty out for finding them) and Ryan’s douchebaggery, I am not convinced that the majority of “likely voters” really support Obama right now. But…
A) By reporting a lead, the wafflers who just want to pick a winner (like 2008 voters w/ buyer’s remorse) will be inclined to stay the course, therefore fulfilling the prophecy, and/or
B) Should shenanigans at the polls be required to secure an Obama victory, the stage has been set to support and expect the (manipulated) outcome.
The choices are clear: write in Ron Paul, vote Gary Johnson, or Vermin Supreme. Or pick status (failing) quo, of either flavor of vanilla.
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25th September 2012 at 1:59 am
flash says:
The essence of this Bain Capital history is that Romney and the other “privileged 1%” made their massive wealth via leveraged buyouts (hostile or friendly takeovers of established companies using loans) that cost tens of thousands of jobs and moved production in many cases overseas, eroding the US economy. Electric car loans are rather innocuous.
By. Jen Alic of Oilprice.com
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 6:38 am
card802 says:
From 2009:
WASHINGTON — A tiny car company backed by former Vice President Al Gore has just gotten a $529 million U.S. government loan to help build a hybrid sports car in Finland that will sell for about $89,000.
Al Gore, figures. Using American taxpayer dollars to fund a foreign auto maker. Marvelous.
Al Gore profits mightily because he is connected to big government who own and control the American taxpayer, a once thought of bottomless pit of money.
No longer.
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25th September 2012 at 6:48 am
flash says:
At some point the majority of Americans will awaken to the fact that the Federal government is a nothing more than a money scamming racket ran for the benefit of major corporations….or not.
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25th September 2012 at 6:54 am
card802 says:
Gary North on the federal budget mess:
http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1204.html
“Then comes the bottom line.
The problems are close to being unmanageable now. If we stay on the current path, they will wind up being completely unmanageable, culminating in an unwelcome explosion and crisis.
We are going to stay on the present path. The problems will become unmanageable.
The U.S. government is going to default. The five do not use the D-word, but what they say points to it.”
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25th September 2012 at 7:36 am
John A says:
Sal and Richard’s (Howard Stern) recent interviews of Obama supporters in Harlem is linked below if you have not yet seen this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJbOU4nmHQ
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25th September 2012 at 8:21 am
John A says:
Sorry about the repeat post…
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25th September 2012 at 8:24 am
flash says:
…on lookout for Nero.
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25th September 2012 at 8:33 am
indiejen says:
A super-size Vermin Supreme with a side of douchebaggery… now that’s a value meal.
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25th September 2012 at 8:41 am
Stucky says:
Nicola TESLA — one of the greatest scientists who ever lived, whom most have never heard of.
Tesla held around 700 patents in 26 countries. These include:
•Tesla Coil.
•Alternating currents.
•Robots
•Spark plugs
•Electric Arc Lamp
•Devices for X-Ray
•Bifilar coil
•Bladeless turbine
A great short (45 minute) free documentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoY_7mbm5ng&feature=player_embedded
He’s surely turning in his grave ocer this shit auto company bearing his name.
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25th September 2012 at 8:43 am
Mr. Happy says:
Of course Tesla should be supported in the private market….however, I don’t agree that this is a bummer of a company. It’s just the opposite. Yes, it’s high risk and the stock is super volatile but as pointed out it is trading at a pretty healthy range above it’s origional offering px. See 5 year chart: http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=TSLA#symbol=tsla;range=5y;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;
And then yesterday, the same day the article above came out, Tesla announced a revolutionary supercharger, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgk5-eB9oTY
I think this is pretty exciting, innovative stuff and I hope Tesla makes it and on its own merits. Yes, they shouldn’t be using taxpayer funding, but maybe this one time…just this one time I do hope it works out for them. They deserve it.
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25th September 2012 at 9:29 am
S.E. says:
Concerning the “$7,500 tax rebate”…
Let me ask you this, if a man borrowed the money to buy a Tesla car and arranged it so that he did not have to make a payment until after he got his $7,500 tax rebate, would this result in cash in hand or merely a reduced taxable burden?
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25th September 2012 at 10:25 am
Administrator says:
S.E.
I’m guessing the rebate is factored into the equation during the purchase process, but anything is possible these days.
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25th September 2012 at 10:42 am
James A. Graham says:
There are three possible options that result in only two certain outcomes.
First option and outcome: Vote for and re-elect the Hope and Change candidate that supposedly cares about the poor and uses the words of the Bible as his justification for massively increasing spending on social welfare programs. If Christians turn out and vote for President Obama then he will be re-elected.
Second option and outcome: Vote for the rich, capitalist, candidate that promises to return America to its original foundations to a less centralized government with more personal freedoms. This candidate’s religion even denies the Orthodox Christian view of the Trinity. Mormonism even espouses that Satan and Jesus are spirit brothers and that God had physical relations with Mary. If Christians turn out and vote en masse for Governor Romney despite his religion, then he will be elected.
Third option and outcome: Christians abstain from voting because each candidate is unworthy; Obama wants gay marriage and Romney’s religion denies that Jesus is Lord above all. In good conscience Christians stay home from the polls. That results again in the first outcome.
Reflecting on the first option: If anyone thinks that President Obama is a Christian then let the record speak for itself. This is a man who for 20 years sat under the hate-filled preaching a Rev Jeremiah Wright, a Black Liberation Theology hate monger. I wonder if Rev Wright ever preached on “Loving God and Loving your neighbor as yourself” which Jesus said is the Greatest Commandment (Matthew 22)? Radio talk show host and former political candidate Alan Keyes, even offered further evidence in 2004 that then Senate Candidate Obama was not a Christian. Keyes said that even “Jesus Christ would not vote for Obama” due to his far left views on abortion and infanticide while serving in the Illinois State Senate.
President Obama recently showed more of his so-called “Christian” faith in by claiming to have compassion on same sex individuals who want to have the same rights of marriage that heterosexuals have enjoyed from the beginning of civilization. The President even cited the Golden Rule in his decision. We must be reminded however that even Satan quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus (Matthew 4). Similarly, the President quoted scripture to justify his position. Unfortunately his position is inconsistent with the whole counsel of Holy Writ. This misreading of the Bible is what the Great Reformer, Martin Luther, warned when he said that “Scripture does not have a wax nose” and is not to be twisted into anything we want it to say. Seems this was just a bone to the Gay Rights crowd so they would continue to donate to the President’s re-election effort.
President Obama has led from behind on this economic recovery and led from the front increasing this catastrophic debt burden he has imposed upon our children and grandchildren. Unfortunately these massive tax increases will choke the growth of this economy and our power as a world leader will consequently diminish. When he promised to change this country, he meant what he said. In my view, the President is actually a statist. His god is actually the all-powerful government bent on subjugating a free people under his rule.
Reflecting on the second option: So what would a Mormon presidency look like? There are sixteen Mormons serving in the US Congress. Mormons are known for their abstentions from alcohol, tobacco, caffeine. I served in the military with many Mormons and they were some of the finest officers dedicated to the defense of America that I ever served with. Other Mormon friends I have are some of the hardest working and most patriotic people I know. Devout Mormons are law abiding citizens of very higher moral standards and committed to their families. Governor Romney and his family could be characterized in this way.
Would Mormon theology or a Mormon President be counter to the preservation of our Great Republic? First, we must understand that Mormon theology is a “works based” religion. I think we could infer that good works accomplished by any group (feeding the hungry, blood drives, coats for kids, etc…) are beneficial to our society as a whole. The disagreement is in the motivation for doing good works. The theological discussion with Mormons or other religions is whether good works can justify our standing on Judgment Day before God Almighty. What is not in dispute is the “good” in the term good works.
Second, would Governor Romney be the mouthpiece of the Mormon Church or a good President of all the people? As President, Romney promised to pursue a conservative, pro-growth economic agenda. His number one economic priority would be to grow the economy — helping to create good jobs, raise incomes and preserve American strength. Just as President Kennedy was the first Catholic president and did not act as the American Pope, there is no reason to think that a Romney Presidency would rule from Salt Lake City.
Reflecting on the third option: Christians staying home from the polls or voting for a third party candidate keeps the status quo in place with Harry Reid running the Senate and conservatives being demonized in the House for wanting to reign in the debt. Worse than that, if we don’t overturn the Affordable Care Act we become complicit in furthering the continued slaughter of the unborn under the ruse of “Women’s Health Coverage.” This government’s intervention, never seen before in the history of this Great Republic, mandating that faith based organizations participate in this slaughter is unconscionable. Think of it this way, we have a modern King Herod in office that is determined to slaughter the unborn and whose ultimate goal is power, total power. (Historical note-around the time of Jesus birth King Herod ordered the slaughter of boys two years old and under in Israel to try to kill Jesus.)
What is a Conservative Christian supposed to do? Christians should be all about sharing the message of God’s love through Jesus Christ. We are also called in the New Testament to be good citizens. Therein lays the dilemma, because the world of politics is a human endeavor run by sinners, of which I am one. Christians also understand the reality of the evil that exists around us. Jesus called us to be “Salt and Light” to a dark and lost world. Therefore I should do everything in my power to advance the kingdom of Christ and counter evil. Therefore I have to vote and I have to vote against the current President’s policies.
In light of the recent attacks on our embassies in the Middle East and North Africa, it seems that the current President is more content with appeasing the Muslim Brotherhood than standing strong against the regimes that want to do us harm. Just as I am justified in killing an intruder that comes into my house and seeks to do my family harm, our country is also justified in defending itself against militant Islam that is hostile to our values and the freedoms we enjoy in the West. Justification for Christians to take up arms can be found in what is called Just War Theory.
If Christians cannot vote in good conscience for the Romney/Ryan ticket due to the Mormon connection, please consider stopping the modern King Herod by voting against President Obama. That would be the “R” selection on the ballot
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 10:43 am
TeresaE says:
So, let’s look at facts.
1. They are missing their first payment – never a good omen, shoving it back still means it was missed. AND, Tesla (nor any other debtor) would set those terms as the piece insinuated, they begged to their government handlers, and it was done.
2. They are predicting they will be at the level of 400 cars per week. Just how many electric cars are selling now per week? Just did a quick lookup and GM is telling us they have sold around 300 per week this year. And that is with governments and union workers buying them with a bigger kickback. I’m trying to find the article where I read that Tesla’s cars are only getting $5k in kickback, the Volt is getting $7.5k
3. In the next few years (maybe even starting this winter) the batteries on electric cars are going to start reaching their life expectancy, once word gets out about the replacement costs (over ten thousand), it is going to make a big hit in sales. Though the media will bury it, because they have already buried any info on this reality – nor do I see the costs included in any of the bogus “cost to drive” brand surveys.
I have great respect for Mr. Tesla, I admit I enjoy Tesla’s music, but Tesla Motors has nothing to do with either of them.
Mr. Happy comes in with a pipe full of hopium, which seems to be all we have left.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 10:43 am
DaveL says:
I’m moving to Spain, where they know how to create a “green” economy.
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25th September 2012 at 12:14 pm
Hope@ZeroKelvin says:
This company is the brainchild of Elon Musk, who is a certified genius behind Paypal, Space X and any number of high tech stuff. He is a brilliant engineer, a hands on guy as well as being very successful in the business side as well. I think he was the inspiration for the Tony Stark character in the Iron Man series.
He is also likely a ginormous Obama supporter, which explains the generous loans. He is a 32% stock holder in Tesla.
I would like to see stuff like this succeed, I really would, but the thermodynamics are totally in the wrong direction for electric cars with current technology.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 12:41 pm
ThePessimisticChemist says:
@HZK – Its so much more than just thermodynamics.
The weight of the car, strength of batteries, the weight of the batteries….so much goes into it.
We really need to move away from this “every home has multiple cars” mentality and embrace the reality that electricity and public transportations are the only long term sustainable practices.
City buses can be outfitted with Hydrogen fuel cells or can be natural gas powered. In the meantime, start building tram systems or trolley lines that run off of the city’s powergrid. If we start this now, by the time the petrol stops being pumped the US will be capable of self-sustaining its fuel through Cellulosic and BioDiesel alone, because demand will have dropped through the floor.
Like I’ve said before though, I’m living in a dream. The rank and file will never plan that far ahead, and its one of the reasons the ultra-rich have such an easy time screwing us all over. They plan for the long game while we are all focused on the here and now. The more difficulty we have feeding and clothing ourselves, the last time we can spend noticing the economic rape taking place.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 1:10 pm
Mr. Happy says:
TeresaE….what’s wrong with hopium? Musk just did a presentation that outlined the possibility of driving across the US on sunlight. Ok, they may run out of capital (and not gas) which you and most everyone else focus on… and they may fail. Isn’t that what made America great or do you think bottom line accountants are the key ingredient here? I see something very important has happened. A way forward has been outlined…forget the fucking balance sheet just for a minute and focus for a bit on the mind of a guy named Musk. I wish him well and if he’s on huge quantities of hopium, good on him.
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25th September 2012 at 3:40 pm
TeresaE says:
Well, other than it got Barry elected the first time (looks to be second too), nothing.
Which is why I actually didn’t say anything negative, just made an observation.
Hope away
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25th September 2012 at 3:42 pm
Administrator says:
This is what relying on hopium rather than common sense and reality has gotten us.
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25th September 2012 at 3:51 pm
TeresaE says:
Now that I’ve reread your response.
I have zero trouble with innovators seeking new ways.
I have huge amounts of trouble if they are using my pocketbook by force. Or my children’s. Or, great-great-great-children. Even if the Tesla loans are “successful,” will that make up for the other billions/trilions they have wasted?
And more often than not, the government harms our future more than it helps, thus rendering most endeavors a humongous waste of money and burden on us all. I’d rather have them pick none, then do what they have been doing for generations and screwing us one boondoggle at a time.
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25th September 2012 at 4:01 pm
Administrator says:
Tesla Motors has lost $660 million in the last three and a half years.
It has $438 million of debt and $62 million of equity.
They have $278 million of cash and they have burned through $420 million of cash in the last twelve months.
At that rate, they will be bankrupt in the next nine months.
The taxpayers can kiss that loan goodbye. Hopium won’t save this piece of shit company.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 4:18 pm
Strider says:
Tesla has designed, built, and launched an electric car that everyone in the automotive press who’s actually driven one says is fantastic for ~$860 million. No other auto maker can design, build a factory, and get a car out the door for that little. Tesla is changing the way the automotive world works.
Battery-powered EV’s are the best bet we have now. Hydrogen? Give me a break. Where does the hydrogen come from? Cracking water is heinously inefficient – it takes way more energy to crack water than it would to just power an EV. Your other choice is to get it from Nat gas. So we move from one finite resource to another and you have to build fueling stations and distribution infrastructure. Why not just use the nat gas to power EXISTING electricity plants and use EXISTING infrastructure to charge? Maybe you like nuclear or wind or solar? Bottom line is that EV’s can use any fuel based on what’s cheapest at the time. It’s the ultimate flex-fuel vehicle.
The Tesla Model S has price-parity with it’s ICE competitors (BMW 5-series, Audi A6, MB, etc) and you save more enough on gas (at today’s prices, as gas prices continue to rise the payback gets better and better) to pay for the battery replacement that will have to happen.
Also, the govt is subsidizing the oil companies billions of dollars per year so why not EV’s too? I’m fine w/ getting rid of the $7,500 tax credit if we eliminate all subsidies for everyone.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 4:50 pm
Administrator says:
Who the fuck wants a $60,000 car that can only go 230 miles before being plugged into an electrical outlet?
Fuck Tesla Motors. Compete in the free market with your own fucking money – not mine.
Did the Federal Government subsidize Henry Ford?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 4:59 pm
Administrator says:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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25th September 2012 at 5:06 pm
Administrator says:
WE SHOULD LET OBAMA PICK ALL THE WINNERS
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25th September 2012 at 5:08 pm
Strider says:
“Who the fuck wants a $60,000 car that can only go 230 miles before being plugged into an electrical outlet?”
Uh, I do. The vast majority of everyone’s driving is like 40 miles/day. An EV you treat like a cell phone. You plug it in at night and it’s ready to go every morning. It’s extremely convenient. Many families in the US have 2 or more cars. For nearly all of them, one of those cars could be an EV.
I find it amusing that so much rage is being directed at the government loaning money to Tesla when it is but a tiny fraction of the TRILLIONS the govt has given to banksters who have given us nothing in return. At least w/ Tesla we get a cool car.
And let’s not remember that w/o the government we wouldn’t have the microchip, plastics, advanced ceramics, GPS, interstate system, modern firearms, etc.
Finally, the arguments you are making are the EXACT same ones that were made against the first cars. They’re too expensive/toys of the rich, the range is terrible, there’s no place to refuel them, etc. Yet here we are and horses are toys are cars/trucks are common. It will be the same w/ EV’s.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 5:23 pm
Strider says:
Also, for you doomers out there, if you have solar panels or a windmill you can even drive your EV after TEOTWAWKI – try doing that w/ your ICE.
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25th September 2012 at 5:26 pm
ThePessimisticChemist says:
@Strider – You must be willfully blind if not outright stupid if you think the amount of rage we aim at Tesla (the company, not the man) is even a fraction compared to what the bankers get.
Here’s my question: What are they doing to do to power those when china stops selling us rare earth minerals to put in our batteries?
Unless there is another battery breakthrough (much like with the Lithium batteries) this mode of transportation has a limited shelf life.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 5:30 pm
Administrator says:
Strider
I am equally outraged at the money funneled to bankers. It is all part of the same corporate fascist culture that has fucked this country up.
I find it amusing that you think Obama and his minions can pick winners and losers.
Are those electric Tesla cars going to be powered by those Solyndra solar panels douchebag?
Your bullshit about windmills and solar panels proves you’re a pawn without a clue. Over 45% of the electricity in this country is from coal powered plants. Less than 1% comes from solar and wind. You greenies are a delusional bunch. Do you understand the concept of EROEI? I doubt it. Facts are inconvenient to ideologues.
Your beloved Tesla S Alpha will not be dominating the highways Strider. I can read a balance sheet. Can you? Tesla will be bankrupt in the next two years.
I don’t have any arguments against electric cars. I drive a Honda Insight Hybrid that gets 45 mpg. Honda designed and built it without government help. If there is a market it will sell.
Henry Ford didn’t use his political influence to get loans from the Federal government to design and produce the Model T. People like yourself think government knows best and the market just needs a push.
Thanks for dropping by and letting us witness an Obama worshipper.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 5:36 pm
Administrator says:
Could a bricked Tesla battery cost you $40,000?
By Bill Howard on February 24, 2012 at 10:56 am
Let your Tesla [1] battery run down to empty and it may have to be replaced for $40,000. That’s what one site claims was the fate of five of the all-electric Tesla Roadsters. For that to happen, you have to walk away from a Tesla already low on juice and let it sit while parasitic losses take it to zero, at which point the battery is a brick and can’t be recharged, only replaced. The story behind the story has taken on a life of its own with charges about the motives of the author.
Tesla’s owner’s manual says a fully charged Roadster battery will last 11 weeks. But there’s also a warning that a car left to sit for more than two weeks should be plugged into Tesla’s $2,000 special charger. A car low on power could also be done in by a power cord that comes unplugged, a circuit breaker or ground fault interrupter that trips, or a long extension cord that can’t handle the current flow. It’s one more thing to worry about if you leave for an extended trip
In the case of a Tesla, you apparently can’t just do a deep and loving recharge: no battery version of the dent wizard. When the battery bricks, or fully discharges, you replace the battery pack at a cost of around $40,000 ($32,000 plus labor and taxes). It’s not covered by the Tesla warranty or car insurance. You can buy a $12,000 replacement policy that would cover a worn out battery but not a dead-from-total-discharge battery while the car is under warranty. TheUnderstatement contends at least five of 2,200 Tesla Roadsters have suffered this condition [2] and Tesla has ways to track battery condition remotely, via on-board telematics monitoring, and attempts to contact owners. The story can’t make up its mind whether this is a good thing (Tesla just saved you forty large) or bad thing (Big Brother and all).
A lead-acid car battery costs about $100, is good for five years, and can be recharged in most cases until death from old age, although some badly depleted batteries can freeze in cold weather. Hybrid car batteries, mostly nickel-metal hydride, cost about $2,500 and in daily use they’re never discharged below 20% or 25% (or charged above 80%). By living in that middle range, they’re good almost indefinitely, at least to 11 years, which is the scrappage life for the average vehicle.
[3]It’s apparently parasitic losses of the car’s electrical subsystems that cause the discharge when parked. A lithium-ion battery, such as used in a laptop or smartphone, is the same general technology as Tesla and other electric cars such as Nissan Leaf use. Unconnected, they hold charge for many months. It’s unclear if Tesla could engineer the car to disconnect all electrical subsystems if the car reaches a critical discharge level, say 2%, to stretch its remaining life.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 5:42 pm
Administrator says:
Tesla Model S Offers a Lesson in Electric-Vehicle Economics
By PAUL STENQUIST
A handful of fully electric Tesla Model S Signature Performance sedans were presented to their owners at the company’s factory on June 22, each priced around $100,000. The luxury sedans were fitted with the most powerful battery pack available from the start-up automaker, rated at 85 kilowatt-hours. In combination with the vehicles’ electric motor and other running gear, those reserves of energy are capable of generating 416 horsepower, Tesla claims.
A Model S with the 85-kWh pack but without the Signature Performance frills would cost $77,400, before tax credits. Smaller packs, with proportionally diminished prices and estimated driving ranges, are scheduled to be offered later this year: a 60-kWh model starting at $67,400 and a 40-kWh model at $57,400, again excluding tax credits.
By setting three distinct benchmarks for performance and price, Tesla offered customers, and the industry, an invitation to engage in some rudimentary calculations to determine the price Tesla placed on each kilowatt-hour of capacity.
Taking the difference between the prices of cars fitted with the 40-kWh and 60-kWh packs, Tesla ostensibly charges $10,000 for 20 kWh of capacity, or $500 per kilowatt-hour.
Because the battery packs are constructed of thousands of smaller batteries, the cost of the battery is expected to escalate as its capacity increases. But the 85-kWh pack offers 25 kWh for $10,000, or $400 per kilowatt-hour.
Of course, equipment levels are part of the Model S equation as well. Tesla expects buyers of the Signature Performance level to pay roughly $20,000 over the basic 85-kWh sedan for features like a performance-goosing inverter, sport-tuned suspension and nappa leather.
In return for the extra dollars and deeper reserves of battery power are extended range and better full-throttle performance. The Environmental Protection Agency recently rated the Model S equipped with the 85-kWh pack at a range of 265 miles, which is about 3.1 miles per kilowatt-hour. That is in keeping with the widely acknowledged capability of lithium-ion battery packs, which deliver about 3 miles per kilowatt-hour in a car weighing slightly more than an equivalent vehicle with an internal-combustion engine.
Consequently, the 60-kWh Model S should offer a range of about 187 miles, and cars with the 40-kWh pack should be capable of about 125 miles.
On its Web site, Tesla more optimistically cites range limits of 300, 230 and 160 miles for the three packs, assuming a constant speed of 55 miles per hour under ideal conditions. Driving in extreme cold can reduce the range of a lithium-ion battery, and any number of factors can erode their performance, be it excessive heat, overcharging or deterioration of the electrolyte.
Battery packs used in E.V.’s have safeguard systems built in that prevent overheating and overcharging, but no device exists that forestalls the march of time. Maximum range, in other words, isn’t a forever proposition.
The hope throughout the industry is for battery prices to decline as the technology matures and manufacturing efficiencies are developed. Tesla declines to cite a price for battery replacement, saying on its Web site that it is “impossible to accurately forecast the cost of future battery replacements.”To that, one might add that it is impossible to forecast the cost of future electric vehicles.
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25th September 2012 at 5:44 pm
ThePessimisticChemist says:
“Driving in extreme cold can reduce the range of a lithium-ion battery.”
A very large portion of the US is subjected to frigid temperatures at times. I know current cars suffer from this issue, however most modern automobiles you can walk up and cold start them down to about zero degrees fahrenheit no problem.
The more I read the more thankful I am for my applied sciences background. Being able to take off the blinders has really helped propel me past those who can only see whats right in front of them.
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25th September 2012 at 6:04 pm
Strider says:
@ThePessimisticChemist – Tesla’s EV system does not use ANY rare earth elements. There are no magnets in their motors. There is nothing toxic in a Lithium Ion battery. The computers in the car use some rare earths but so do all modern cars and there are no more computers in a Tesla than a regular car. Chile is the leading producer of lithium and there are tons of supply. It can also be recycled from worn out batteries.
@Administrator – Have you looked at the EROI of tar sands? I’m not saying solar and wind are the answer. I have no idea and frankly, neither do you. Maybe the answer is thorium nuclear, maybe it’s nat gas, maybe it’s hydro, maybe it’s all of those things. Bottom line is that an EV can be powered by any of those sources while your hybrid cannot.
I’m no fan of Obama or Romney. I see them as part of the same elitist, corporate-owned cloth. My point was that the government has contributed to a lot of basic science over the years that has made its way into our homes. There’s no way a company would have developed GPS with private funding yet we all get to use it. Same can be said for a ton of other products like microchips and our interstate highway system. Without government research into lasers we wouldn’t have CD or DVD players. The list goes on and on.
I’ve driven a Tesla Roadster for 2 years and 22,000 miles and have lost 4% of capacity. This isn’t a laptop – Tesla actively manages their batteries to keep them in their sweet spot. I like Tesla’s products so I’m buying them. The math on an EV works for me, right now, today. Also, they are really fun to drive. But they’re not for everyone, just like the first gas cars were not for everyone. But technology marches on.
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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25th September 2012 at 7:03 pm
Strider says:
@ThePessimisticChemist – The range/efficiency of ICE cars goes WAY down in extreme cold. An EV is much better at handling cold than an ICE. Tesla has a number of customers in Canada and Norway. Those folks can jump in and drive off w/ their EVs while they had to wait for their ICE’s to warm up. Yes, heating the car involves using an electric heater which does take energy but there’s no free lunch. You can also pre-heat (or pre-cool) your car while its plugged in using grid power while leaving your garage closed so this will help with range.
I’ve never said EV’s are for everyone. I live in a mild climate and have a 50 mile round trip commute. My wife’s commute is 20 miles round trip. EV’s work great for us right now, today, all-in. I spent $13/day driving my Corvette, I now pay $0.96/day to drive my Tesla. The savings will pay for the eventual battery replacement. If the battery lasts beyond 5 years then I’m making money.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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25th September 2012 at 7:10 pm
youcanthavemyglock says:
@Strider
“The vast majority of everyone’s driving is like 40 miles/day. An EV you treat like a cell phone. You plug it in at night and it’s ready to go every morning.”
wow what a convenience! and best of all, electricity is cheap! i mean i pay like nothing for utilities and the prices always stay low, not to mention we have unlimited coal in the world so if everyone gets a Tesla and 300 million drivers in US start charging their cars we definitely have the grid and demand to support it.
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25th September 2012 at 9:31 pm
Will says:
@Hope
Elon Musk IS NOT the “brainchild” behind Tesla Motors. That distinction goes to Martin Eberhard, CEO; Marc Tarpenning, VP; Jeffery “JB” Straubel, CTO and engineer Ian Wright. Wright was one of the original design team members and founders who later left the company. Musk came along later and had the money which then-startup Tesla needed badly. Musk had loads of cash after selling out some of his PayPal buddies when Paypal was sold to eBay. He eventually forced Eberhard out of Tesla, and eventually all of Eberhard’s executive staff, except Straubel. Musk may be the backer of Tesla now, and Space X, but he’s not some brilliant, larger than life figure (although he actually believes he is.) How do I know? I’ve known him personally. Worked for him. Drank beer with him in the Tesla shop gathered around the car lifts. Sat through countless meetings… blah blah blah. So Musk is not the brainchild behind Tesla. He is the top ego running the place, when he’s not being an Obama cheerleader.
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25th September 2012 at 12:35 am
Brian H says:
@Will;
Eberhard couldn’t get it thru his head that you can’t build a car for $140K and sell it for $80K, which is what he wanted to do. In the end, even his arrangement to use the Elise shell for the Roadster was an error: it cost more to alter it to handle electric power than to start with a white sheet.
Just too far removed from the real world.
I take it you were also let go. Your picture does not match the man whose SpaceX rockets are doing things better at fractions of the cost compared to anyone else’s.
I think you’re indirectly justifying your own failure there.
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25th September 2012 at 6:13 am
Kevin Beck says:
Regarding Mr. Hopey-Changey: There’s no hope with a dope. And with him, you get none of the first, but a lot of the second.
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25th September 2012 at 6:19 am
flash says:
The most important election EVAH!
You can’t win if you dasn’t play.
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25th September 2012 at 6:38 am
Proud Atheist Brit says:
Er… that Christian rant is entertaining….. entertaining but fucking stupid. You guys are really primitive out there in middle America aren’t you? I almost feel like turning gay, getting a woman pregnant and then making her abort the foetus, just to annoy you. Welcome to 2012, fuckwits. In the civilised world, and I include parts of the US in that, gay rights are an accepted part of everyday life. Abortion is a carefully controlled last resort. The world keeps fucking turning, and people don’t have to disguise their real feelings and live miserable lives, because they think an imaginary totalitarian is controlling them.
Teslas are cool, by the way. And if you live in a country smaller than the average sized cup of soft drink in the US, you don’t need a range of more than 300 miles. And, talking of recharging, some of you (the ones maybe who don’t believe that the earth was created last Tuesday and that dinosaurs are a test of faith) MAY have heard of clean power? There’s a lot of it about.
Go and read some books little children. Real books I mean, not a collection of fairy tales like the bible.
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25th September 2012 at 8:14 am
Administrator says:
Fuckwit Brit
Tell us about clean power. Britain is really known for their “clean” power. And tell us about clean teeth. You Brits know alot about that too.
Sounds like you’re a little irritated living in that socialist paradise of “Great” Britain. Great – that’s a good one.
Teslas will be cooler in two years when they are a collectors item because the company is bankrupt.
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25th September 2012 at 8:18 am
Administrator says:
Looks like we’ve attracted the Tesla cheerleader brigade.
I don’t really give a fuck about how cool a Tesla is to drive.
I don’t really give a fuck about who runs the company.
I don’t give a fuck about the driving habits of Tesla fans.
If Tesla can produce a product that people want to buy, more power to them. Keep me the fuck out of it. It’s called capitalism. The market will decide the fate of Tesla cars.
I do give a fuck that Obama is going to lose $465 million of my tax dollars when this company goes bankrupt.
Cheerleaders should take a course in accounting so they can read a balance sheet and cash flow statement.
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25th September 2012 at 8:25 am
Stucky says:
Actual picture of aforementioned fuckwit Brit
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25th September 2012 at 9:16 am
Stucky says:
Typical street corner in England …. enjoy your freedom Mr. Fuckwit Brit
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25th September 2012 at 9:18 am
Kill Bill says:
I heard a commotion outside the window this morning.
One was telling me to not use a condom. Another was demanding I stop eating for a month. Another telling me to hug a tree. Put on magic underwear. Repent by telling me your sins in private. Kiss the wall. Eat some Fish & Chips. Loyalty to the Queen. Consume. Buy Treasuries. Love your neighbor. Ignorance is strength.
What a cacophony. I threw open the sash and spake thus, “Fine, I will do all these things if you will just get along.”
A few minutes later they, except for their distant grumblings, were all gone.
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25th September 2012 at 9:45 am
Kill Bill says:
I almost feel like turning gay, getting a woman pregnant and then making her abort the foetus, just to annoy you -PAB
Look, a bloody trollop!
I feel like electing you a King, make you his subject (wench), and force you to go to church. And when your sodden rat infested raft reaches American waters turn you back from whence you came. Not that I dislike Brits but just to annoy you.
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25th September 2012 at 9:53 am
AKAnon says:
Teslas look pretty cool. One will be great in the 2015 sequel of “Back To The Future”.
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25th September 2012 at 10:43 am
Stucky says:
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25th September 2012 at 11:40 am
ThePessimisticChemist says:
Thats true, Lithium batteries are fairly cheap and non-toxic. My implication was that we are pretty much at the end of the spectrum with respect to Li batteries and will need to start branching out into other technologies.
I agree that government involvement in the R&D field is important TO A CERTAIN EXTENT…..but Obama’s policies literally just throw cash and companies and hope it sticks. They had programs in place to share government research with the private sector, there was no need for him to throw billions into the mix.
That fuck is just trying to buy votes.
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25th September 2012 at 12:48 pm
flash says:
FWIW, Duirng WWII ,The US should have burnt Britain down instead of Germany .
We’d all be a lot better of without a nation of useless rotten teethed twits trying to dominate the world using the US as a proxy.
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25th September 2012 at 1:31 pm
Strider says:
@youcanthavemyglock says:
“wow what a convenience! and best of all, electricity is cheap! i mean i pay like nothing for utilities and the prices always stay low, not to mention we have unlimited coal in the world so if everyone gets a Tesla and 300 million drivers in US start charging their cars we definitely have the grid and demand to support it.”
Coal plants are being shut down right and left as they are dirty and expensive. New plants are natural gas which are quite clean and the fuel is cheap and (for the moment) plentiful. Like I said, I have no idea what we will use to generate electricity in the future whether it’s nuclear, nat gas, hydro, wind, solar, cold fusion, whatever. The beauty of an EV is that it can be fueled from any of those sources. ICE’s require liquid hydrocarbons in very specific arrangements.
Finally, the independent drip operators did the research and concluded that we could add 150 million EV’s and not change a thing w/ the grid. You see, EV’s are charged at night when most people and companies are idle and so there is a surplus of power. Many power plants ramp down at night as there isn’t enough load. So there is plenty of capacity.
As for cost, I laid it out. It took 3 gallons of premium for my commute vs $0.96 of electricity. I’m currently saving that difference in preparation for a battery replacement at some point but the technology is so new we don’t really know how long the batteries will last.
@ThePessimisticChemist says:
“Thats true, Lithium batteries are fairly cheap and non-toxic. My implication was that we are pretty much at the end of the spectrum with respect to Li batteries and will need to start branching out into other technologies.
I agree that government involvement in the R&D field is important TO A CERTAIN EXTENT…..but Obama’s policies literally just throw cash and companies and hope it sticks. They had programs in place to share government research with the private sector, there was no need for him to throw billions into the mix.
That fuck is just trying to buy votes.”
Let’s remember that this DOE program was begun under Bush but I view Bush, Obama, and Romney as the same person so it doesn’t really matter. I wish Tesla hadn’t taken part in the program but it hasn’t been the best environment to raise capital in the last few years. At least in this case (as opposed to bailing out banksters) the money went to people building actual products in America. I’m putting my money where my mouth is as we will be buying a second Tesla in the next couple months. Hopefully Tesla pulls out of this and pays back the loan. Then we can move on w/ just talking about how well it functions as a car and not a political football.
To your battery comment, I completely agree. That is part of Tesla’s plan. By using industry-standard size cells they can let the various battery companies figure out the best chemistries and such and Tesla will focus on the drivetrains and building the cars. If a better chemistry comes along they’ll switch to that.
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25th September 2012 at 7:31 pm
Proud Atheist Brit says:
You may think I am not being sincere, but I genuinely enjoyed some of your comments. Really. Very very amusing. I agree 100% that the UK has very little clean power, we have some of the dirtiest power stations in Europe… I was referring more to the world as a whole. Point taken on the UK though. : ) The UK isn’t, sorry to disappoint you, a “socialist paradise”. Currently, we have a right-wing government, and even our left-wing opposition is quite right-wing. I know that may be annoying, but it’s the truth …
Back to teeth: far more important than cars. If my teeth were half as good as the ones on that picture I’d be a happy man.
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25th September 2012 at 9:11 am
Administrator says:
Proud Atheist Brit
I’m glad you can take a joke. TBP is not politically correct and I encourage vitriol and demagogary. Welcome.
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25th September 2012 at 9:23 am
Muck About says:
@Proud Atheist Brit
Damn, I’m glad to see someone else who is an uncloseted believer in nothing supernatural!
I need help here on TBP which has nests of unrepentant religiosity nestled here and there underfoot. Your assistance in ignoring them would be appreciated.
Welcome.
MA
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25th September 2012 at 9:28 am
flash says:
WTF does a rotten toothed tiny peckered Brit have to be proud of?
Starving millions of people to death across the globe,starting two world wars or the murder of tens of thousands of Boer women and children in South Africa.
BES!
Do you have German penis envy as well.?
British men have bigger penises than the French according to survey of manhood sizes
Controversial: Richard Lynn, professor of psychology at Ulster University, whose research has been criticised as lacking methodology
But British men are less well endowed than the Germans, ranking 78th out of 113 nationalities according to Professor Richard Lynn at Ulster University (pictured).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2210784/British-men-bigger-penises-French-according-survey-manhood-sizes.html
http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/history/european/news.php?q=1237835786
English Capitalists Starved Millions of Irish to Death For Profit – George Bernard Shaw
https://sites.google.com/site/abccensorship/abc-censors-bengali-famine
ABC CENSORS BENGALI FAMINE: 6-7 million Indians killed by UK and Australia in WW2, 1942-1945
The neocon-infested, taxpayer-funded ABC (the Australian equivalent of the UK BBC) has an appalling record of censorship, lying by omission and lying by commission. The ABC has to a significant degree censored reportage of the Australia-complicit 1942-1945 Bengal Famine (Bengali Famine, Bengali Holocaust) in which the British, with Australian complicity, deliberately starved 6-7 million Indians to death in 1942-1945.
India contributed an army of 2.4 million men to assist the British war effort in World War 2. However India was rewarded by a British-imposed Bengal Famine (Bengali Holocaust, Indian Holocaust) that killed 6-7 million Indians in Bengal, Assam, Bihar and Orissa in the period 1942-1945. Australia was a major supplier of wheat but deliberately by-passed starving India , this boosting British food stocks and what was evidently a starvation-based military strategy to prevent Japanese advance into Bengal .
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25th September 2012 at 9:31 am
Proud Atheist Brit says:
^^^^ love the vitriol, and yep you’re right I am hung like a baby fieldmouse. : )
What I am proud of is not my country (that is an accident of where my parents fucked, although apparently I was conceived in Switzerland but born in Britain) but my atheism. I have no dispute at all with any of the examples of British imperialism and cruelty you describe. Pretty sure ALL countries, especially those with a lot of power, do shit like this, doesn’t make it right though.
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25th September 2012 at 7:22 am