This was an interview reposted on RonPaul.com from a couple years ago when Rick Perry still had balls and was talking about Texas Seceding. As always, Dr. Paul educates and tells it like it is.
Ron Paul: Secession Is an American Principle
By RonPaul.com on November 13, 2012
This weekend I got a couple of calls from the media asking me questions about Rick Perry, our governor here in Texas and the statements he made about possible secession. Now, he didn’t call for secession, but he was restating a principle that was long held and at least in the original time of our country, and that is that there was a right to secession.
Actually, after the Civil War, nobody believes there is a so-called right to secession, but it is a very legitimate issue to debate because all of the states that came into the Union before the Civil War believed they have a right to secede and New England in the early part of the 19th century actually considered it, and nobody questioned them about whether they had the right to do it or not.
Since the Civil War, it’s been sort of a dead issue, but he brought it up. It stirred the media and believe me, it really stirred some of the liberal media where they started really screaming about what is going on here. “This is un-American”, I heard one individual say, “This is treasonous to even talk about it.”
Well, they don’t know their history very well because if they think about it, it’s an American tradition. It’s very American to talk about secession. That’s how we came into being. Thirteen colonies seceded from the British and established a new country, so secession is very much an American principle.
What about all the strong endorsements we have given over the past decade or two of those republics that seceded from the Soviet system? We were delighted with this. We never said, “Oh no. Secession is treasonous”.
No. Secession is a good principle. Just think of the benefits that would have come over these last 230-some years if the principle of secession had existed. That means the federal government would always have been restrained, not to overburden the states with too much federalism, too many federal rules and regulations.
But since that was all wiped out with the Civil War, the federal government has grown by leaps and bounds and we have suffered the consequences, and we need to reconsider this. It’s not un-American to think about the possibility of secession. This is something that’s voluntary. We came together voluntarily. A free society means you can dissolve it voluntarily. That was the whole issue was about.
Just remember one of the reasons that Wilson drove us in unnecessarily into World War I. He talked about what we have to give, have every country in the world the benefit of self-determination, a good principle. Of course, I don’t think he really believed that. But self-determination is a good principle. It’s a very American principle, so to me it’s a shame that we can’t discuss this.
You know, it’s interesting that so many of us have been taught for so many years, and as long as I can remember from the first grade on up taking the pledge of allegiance that we have a republic that’s “indivisible” and we have been preached that and preached it. So therefore, there is no contest, no question since the Civil War that we have even the thought that this could happen.
But you know what a lot of people don’t talk about and they really don’t even know about is who wrote the pledge to the flag. The pledge to the flag came from, for instance, Bellamy, an avowed Socialist who wanted to put into concrete in the pledge this principle of being indivisible, and he did it, you know, for the celebration ironically 400 years of the celebration of the landing of Christopher Columbus, so it was in 1892.
I mean, the pledge of allegiance has not been here, you know, all our history. So I think it’s worth of discussion. I think people should discuss this because right now, the American people are sick and tired of it all and I think the time will come when people will consider it much more seriously is when the federal government can no longer deliver. That time will come when the dollar collapses.
No matter what they do and how many promises they have and how many bailouts they have, they can’t do it if the money doesn’t work. So then, the independence of the states will come back and it doesn’t mean that you’ll be un-American to even contemplate what might have to be done once the dollar crashes.
Welshman says:
You are a good man Dr. Paul, someone who keeps the B.S. off the issue at hand.
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14th November 2012 at 2:11 pm
flash says:
Looks like more than a few people ,including an alliance Southrons and Yankees aren’t satisfied with the results of the War of Northern Aggression and seek a do-over…could get interesting.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/11/white-house-to-review-online-secession-petitions/
White House to Review Online Secession Petitions
As a practice, the White House says it will review and respond to petitions that obtain more than 25,000 signatures. Three secession petitions, from Texas, Louisiana and Florida, have passed that threshold. Texas leads all petitions, with 82,799 online signatures, which the White House confirms through email.
November 14, 2012
3 Myths About Secession
Posted by Ryan W. McMaken on November 14, 2012 12:18 AM
I have no illusions about this latest secession petition phenomenon. Nothing will directly come of this, and the people who are behind it are mostly people who would be singing “God Bless America” at the tops of their lungs had Mitt Romney been elected. On the other hand, it sure has a lot of people talking about secession, which shows that the idea of it remains an important part of the American political consciousness.
But, in response, most of the comments coming from political hacks display a deep, deep ignorance of the history of secession and the Constitutional realities behind it.
In response, I thought I’d list some retorts to the basic myths which most of the anti-secession screeds are intent on perpetuating.
1. The Constitution does not prohibit secession. The legal argument boils down to this: 1. The Constitution does not mention secession. In any way. 2. The Tenth Amendment says: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Now I don’t have a Ph.D. in logic, but even I can figure out that if something is not mentioned, then, according to the 10th Amendment, it isn’t prohibited to the states. In fact, it is the opposite of prohibited. Now I know that the Supreme Court says no secession allowed, which means the federal government has declared that you can’t escape the federal government. Gee, that’s no shocker. So, sure, if you believe that the federal government should be the last word on what the federal government can and cannot do, then that’s fine. Just don’t pretend that we have constitutional government. If the federal government gets to decide what the Constitution says, then the Constitution is nothing more than a suggestion box for the feds.
2. The Civil War did not “settle” the issue. Well, it settled the issue in the way that I settled the matter of ownership of that Steve Garvey baseball card when I beat up that other kid and took it. (OK, that never happened, but you get my point.) Secession was never settled beyond the federal government’s assertion that it has the right to kill people who try to exercise their rights protected by the Tenth Amendment.
3. Secession is treason/unAmerican/craaaazy/for slavers only. Prior to the confederacy, there were some slaveowners who got together and seceded from their government. They were called Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. If you’re opposed to the secession of 1776, then that’s fine, you might be consistent on this issue, but if you’re one of these right-wing pundits who thinks the Declaration of Independence should be read aloud every July 4, and then says that secession is nutso, you might try actually reading that document you profess to love.
The Declaration makes a simple argument:
1. Humans have rights from the Creator
2. Governments exist to secure those rights (a debatable assertion but we’ll roll with it.)
3. When the government fails to secure those rights, we can ditch it and start our own government.
That’s pretty much all it says. If you thought that was true in 1776, when tax rates were 1% and there was no such thing as a the EPA or the FBI or the IRS, why is it not true now? Because we’re so much more free now? And, no, the Declaration did not say that the government is free to violate rights as long as people get to vote on it.
The Declaration establishes that there’s no such thing as treason, and a free government requires the assumption of just secession. Lysander Spooner explains (in No Treason #1):
Thus the whole Revolution [of 1775–1783] turned upon, asserted, and, in theory, established, the right of each and every man, at his discretion, to release himself from the support of the government under which he had lived. And this principle was asserted, not as a right peculiar to themselves, or to that time, or as applicable only to the government then existing; but as a universal right of all men, at all times, and under all circumstances.
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14th November 2012 at 2:17 pm
Wyoming Mike says:
The comments from the sheeple under the various articles are OVERWHELMINGLY calling these folks Unamerican, treasonous, etc. Funny thing is, if they could read, they only need to go as far as the 1st Amendment to see that we have EVERY right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Do you really think Obama has that website up for his health? I don’t think they anticipated this, however.
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14th November 2012 at 2:51 pm
JIMSKI says:
What is a total joke about the response from the ” administration ” is who actually replies. If they thought BO was gunna weigh in they will be disappointed. It does not even go to the cabinet level.
Felicia Escobar is Senior Policy Advisor for White House Domestic Policy Council & Doug Rand is the AAAS/Goldhirsh Fellow in the Office of Science and Technology Policy
LOL who?
Another circus. This place is following more and more the same route as Rome. Petition for the ear of the emperor where you stood in line and they took 2 petitioners a day. You could be in line for YEARS.
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14th November 2012 at 3:56 pm
efarmer says:
Which is why I have said before and I maintain with all my heart that Lincoln was one of the worst presidents we have ever had. What he did was despicable.
EF
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14th November 2012 at 5:06 pm
ThePessimisticChemist says:
A secession would pit the coasts vs. the rest of the country (anything touching the great lakes counts as a coast).
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14th November 2012 at 6:20 pm
Kepi says:
Firstly, petitioning the government for a right to nullify the government’s power is retarded. The Founding Fathers didn’t petition, they declared. Next, secceeding is not going to be a possibility due to our interlinking infrastructure. Simply, we are not 50 state held together merely by laws, but we’re bound by a common, interlinking way of life. If Tennesee were to secceed, every other state in the union has a vested interest in them not, as there are major highways and utilities that run through TN to other states.
Also, there’s an issue of property rights, The Fedral Government owns large portions of land in every state. Unless these states want to claim that it is the state, not the owner, who has rights to dictate who can control property, pretty much expandinf immenent domain to an absolute extent (as opposed to cases of emergency, disaster, or environmental necessity). So the whole “we want to secceed” sentiment is an unrealistic tantrum created by people who don’t want to and won’t actually secceed because doing so would lead to disasterous politics and destruction of their livelihood, but feel that because childish behavior got them seats in 2010 that further childish behavior will get them something again.
It’s the public equivalent of what congress tried to do in 2011 by shutting down the government. It’s unrealistic childishness from a minority of very loud late-wave Boomers and early wave Gen Xers that cannot stand that the social narrative of America is changing. Guess what? The world changes, and you have to adapt. I personally do not like the authoritarian tone the government has taken over the last 11 years. I hate the way corporations have twisted infotech to become a really crappy, low-budget cyberpunk production even more. I hate the federal reserve, I hate the banks, I hate the douchey wallstreet losers who artificially raise prices to line their pockets on futures, and I hate the companies that allow this behavior even more. I hate our out of control copyright and patent system that extends to every minor design or piece of content and to the end of history. All this stuff is bad.
However, whiney unrealistic tantrums from old people acting like children because they can’t have what they want the way they want it. Guess what? That’s what I and I think everyone else who is not throwing a fit know as “adulthood.” It’s one big long series of disappointments as you roll that ball up the hill.
No, it doesn’t get better. No, you can’t live in fantasy camp. Yes, we’re going to have to do the hard work. Yes, if you secceed you’re going to get shot at, and no, asking nicely won’t earn you brownie points, it’ll just make you look like a dumbass.
Grow up. Find realistic solutions. God damn.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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14th November 2012 at 6:27 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
For those who say “Secession is Impossible in the FSofA”, let me ask you a simple question:
Do you think it is possible for the Dollar to collapse?
If you believe it is possible that the Currency we use in the FSofA can fail, the Union that currency serves to hold together fails right behind it.
Anyhow, I’ll have a full article up on this tomorrow, with that nice Comment from HZK in the last secession thread getting Feature Play.
Meanwhile, don’t forget to read the Panarchy & The One to The Many-The Final Countdown article!
http://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/10/13/panarchy-the-one-to-the-many-the-final-countdown/
RE
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14th November 2012 at 7:58 pm
TeresaE says:
Wyoming Mike says: “…The comments from the sheeple under the various articles are OVERWHELMINGLY calling these folks Unamerican, treasonous, etc. Funny thing is…”
The truly funny thing WM, is that those doing the name-calling are the ones being “Un-American.”
America was founded on state’s having rights, including the rights to tell the feds to back the hell off if necessary.
What is your best guess for the percentage of Americans that truly understand what it (should) mean to be American? I wouldn’t guess over 10%
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14th November 2012 at 8:14 pm
Kepi says:
Yes, I believe that the dollar can collapse, but key point here, because the economics of all states are intertwined in someways with most states having at least one an entanglement to each state, even if the dollar collapses, and this federal government is abandoned as a result, a new, national government will rise to take it’s place. It’s an all or nothing game, here.
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14th November 2012 at 8:18 pm
AWD says:
The MSM, in every single story, is blowing off this phenomena, laughing, “it’s symbolic”. What happens if it becomes more than symbolic? What if it gains traction? Amazing how quickly every act of freedom, every act against the socialist Federal government is ridiculed. The propagandists are running the show, with more zeal than ever. I think (and hope) there is more to this than just blowing off steam. Could get interesting. People I talk to are angrier than ever. Something is ready to blow.
“With just 5 days needed for the Texas secession petition to surpass 100,000 signatories, all is not well with the Union. Actually, not only are things not well with the Union, things are getting worse by the minute, as American society splinters into diametrical opposites to a degree not seen in decades, a process which in itself virtually assures there will be no cliff compromise before the opportunity cost of ending the stand off becomes far too great.”
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14th November 2012 at 8:28 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“even if the dollar collapses, and this federal government is abandoned as a result, a new, national government will rise to take it’s place.”-Kepi
If this Goobermint fails, we get CIVIL WAR. No unified Goobermint will result from that, because unlike the War of Northern Aggression, nobody can definitively in this Go Round. The result will be regionalized breakup, a Balkanization of the FSofA.
RE
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14th November 2012 at 8:54 pm
Novista says:
The Constitution acceptance was a secession from the Articles of Confederation.
Kentucky seceded from Virginia by constitutional convention in 1796.
Tennessee, once part of North Carolina, became the 16th state in 1796.
Massachusetts Federals considered the notion of a New England Confederation in 1804.
Federalists from Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island held the Hartford Convention with the New England press eager for secession and a separate peace.
Maine voted to secede from Massachusetts in 1820, having never forgotten that Massachusetts did not defend them during the War of 1812.
South Caroline objected to the 1828 “Tariff of Abominations” and a secession movement developed. And again, 1850, they threatened to leave because of California statehood.
Some movements wished to partition states. How would you react to Deseret, Transylvania, Texlahoma, Superior, Southern California, Baja Arizona, or Western and Eastern Washington state?
Then there was Killington, Vermont which voted in 2005 and 6 to join New Hampshire.
The 1998 separation of part of Calabash, North Carolina to form Carolina Shores.
… the Second Vermont Republic of 2003.
The sovereign Republic of Lakotah declares they aren’t secessionists as they never willingly joined the United States.
Regional secession movements include the states of Washington, Oregon and the province of British Columbia, as well as northern California, southern Alaska, Idaho and Montana, joined into Cascadia.
West Virginia. Virginia’s western counties seceded from the secessionist state to become the 35th state of the Union on June 20, 1863.
1941: northern California and southern Oregon would have formed the State of Jefferson. The plan was dropped after the ‘day of infamy’.
Southern South Dakota and part of Wyoming contemplated forming the new state of Absaroka in 1939.
“If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it.”
from Thomas Jefferson’s first inaugural address
Also, an extract from a letter to Dr. Joseph Priestley, January 29, 1804, regarding the Louisiana Purchase:
“Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the western confederacy will be as much our children & descendants as those of the eastern, and I feel myself as much identified with that country, in future time, as with this; and did I now foresee a separation at some future day, yet I should feel the duty & the desire to promote the western interests as zealously as the eastern, doing all the good for both portions of our future family which should fall within my power. “
Would you argue with the man who penned the Declaration of Independence?
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14th November 2012 at 9:34 pm
todd says:
@kepi,
You make a comment that seem to indicate you don’t really understand the actual structure of our country. “Also, there’s an issue of property rights, The Federal Government owns large portions of land in every state.”
We are a country of 50 sovereign Nations. We call these nations States instead of nations but legally they are sovereign and independent from the United States of America. The States formed a federal – not national- system of government for the common defense and a couple of other little things. The States or sovereign nations have every power and right to tell the federal govt to get the fuck out we want nothing to do with you should the citizens of said Nation decide that is in their best interest.
Creator
Man
States
Federal Beast
in that order.
I generally agree with everything else you said including the getting shot at part. Especially agree with the petitioning for permission instead of just declaring is just stupid since we really don’t need permission. They operate with OUR permission.
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14th November 2012 at 10:53 pm
Novista says:
Kepi
First, ‘retarded’ is certainly in the common usage around here by STMs but if you want to be taken seriously, it’s not a good opening move.
Well before the Founding Fathers, there was a lot of talk, much as the current craze for secession movements. Which, of course, are nothing new in the U.S. ‘Interlinking’ didn’t have any impact when West Virginia split from Virginia, or Kentucky split by constitutional convention and agreement of terms from Virginia. Etc and so forth. As for “the Federal Goverment owns” … because they say so?
Maybe you favor the Lincoln meme that the Union precedes the states? In any case, it is all stolen property in the first instance. If it weren’t for the states, Mordor-on-the-Potomac wouldn’t have a pot to piss in or the bed to shove it under.
“… childish … seats in 2010 … loud late-wave Boomers and early wave Gen Xers … and old people…”
Yeah. “Grow up.” Good advice. Maybe you should try it.
[later] “all or nothing game” … Reckon? Making your own reality does not make it so. There are many possibilities, including getting shot at — and shooting back. Are you ‘heeled’?
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14th November 2012 at 6:56 am
flash says:
In 1861 The Irish escaping the tyrannical anglo grip on Ireland by immigrating to America ran headlong into an even bloodier conflict instigated by North American anglo industrial tycoons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ot7amDyqbY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEkWs4GOZY&feature=related
FEATURES: CIVIL WAR UNITS: Kershaw’s Brigade, CSA [BACK]
Marye’s Heights
Joseph Brevard Kershaw
We are fortunate to have in the authentic words of General Joseph Brevard Kershaw the true story of Marye’s Heights.
Camden, South Carolina, January 29, 1880
To the Editor of The News and Courier
Your Columbia correspondent referred to the incident narrated here, telling the story as ’twas told to him, and inviting corrections. As such a deed should be recorded in the rigid simplicity of actual truth I take the liberty of sending you for publication an accurate account of a transaction every feature of which is indellibly impressed upon my memory.
Richard Kirkland was the son of John Kirkland, an estimable citizen of Kershaw County, a plain substantial famer of the olden time.
In 1861 he entered as a private, Captain J. D. Kennedy’s Company E of the Second South Carolina Volunteers, in which Company he was a sergeant in 1862.
The day after the sanguinary battle of Fredericksburg, Kershaw’s Brigade occupied the
road at the foot of Marye’s Hill and the grounds about Marye’s House, the scene of their desperate defense of the day before. One hundred and fifty yards in front of the road, the stone facing of which constituted the famous stone wall, lay Sykes Division of Regulars, U. S. A. between whom and our troops a murderous skirmish occupied the whole day, fatal to many who heedlessly exposed themselves even for a moment. The ground between the lines was nearly bridged with the wounded, dead and dying Federals, victims of the many desperately gallant assaults of that column of 30,000 brave men, hurled vainly against that impregnable position. All that day those wounded men rent the air with their groans and agonizing cries of ” water ! water !”
In the afternoon the General sat in the North room upstairs of Mrs Stevens’ House in front of the road, surveying the field, when Kirkland came up. With an expression of indignant remonstrance pervading his person, his manner and the tone of his voice, he said: “General, I can’t stand this” “What is the matter, Sergeant?” asked the General. He replied: ” All night and all day I have heard those poor
people crying for water and can stand it no longer”, I came to ask permission to go and give them water.”
The General regarded him for a moment with feelings of profound admiration and said: ” Kirkland, don’t you know that you would get a bullet through your head the moment you stepped over the wall?” ” Yes, Sir, he said, I know all about that, but if you will let me, I am willing to try it” After a pause the General said: ” Kirkland, I ought not to allow you to run such a risk, but the sentiment which actuates you is so noble, that I will not refuse your request, trusting that God may protect you. You may go.”
The Sergeant’s eyes lighted up with pleasure. He said “Thank you Sir” and ran rapidly down stairs. The General heard him pause for a moment and then return, bounding two steps at a time. He thought the Sergeant’s heart had failed him. He was mistaken. The Sergeant stopped at the door and said: ” General, can I show a white handkerchief ?” The General slowly shook his head, saying emphatically: ” No, Kirkland, you can’t do that.’ “All right, Sir, he said, I’ll take my chances.” With profound anxiety, he was watched as he stepped over the wall on his errand of mercy, Christ-like mercy. Unharmed he reached the
nearest sufferer. He knelt beside him, tenderly raised the drooping head, rested it gently upon his own noble breast, and poured precious life giving fluid down the fever scorched throat. This done he laid him gently down, placed his knap-sack under his head, straightened out his broken limb, spread his over-coat over him, replaced his empty canteen with a full one, and turned to another sufferer.
By this time his purpose was well understood on both sides and all danger was over. From all parts of the field arose fresh cries of ” Water, for God’s sake, water!” More piteous still, the mute appeal of some one who could only feebly lift a hand to say, here too is life and suffering.
For and hour and a half did this ministering angle pursue his labor of mercy, nor ceased to go and return until he had relieved all of the wounded on that part of the field. He returned wholly unhurt. Who shall say how sweet his rest that Winter’s night beneath the cold stars.
This incident occurred during a bitter cold spell in December when the thermometer fell to zero.
Little remains to be told. Sergeant Kirkland distinguished himself in battle at Gettysburg
and was promoted Lieutenant. At Chickamauga he fell on the field of battle in the hour of victory. He was but a youth when called away and had never formed those ties from which might have resulted a posterity to enjoy his fame and bless his country; but he has bequeathed to American youth, yea, to the world, an example which dignified our common humanity.
J. B. Kershaw
Note : General Kennedy of whose Company E., Kirkland was an original member, also testified that ” the enemy, as soon as they divined his mission ceased their fire and cheered”.
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14th November 2012 at 8:04 am
flash says:
FYI The Secession movement …..keeping count
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0Av5qr_Sj6opddGVLT2M1ckhJOTZnSl9Hek5LRDRXSnc&toomany=true
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14th November 2012 at 9:41 am
Wyoming Mike says:
Teresa,
Much higher than it was in 2008. That being said – between 8-10%.
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14th November 2012 at 12:30 pm
BUCKHED says:
The Right To Petition The Government For Redress Of Grievances is a DEAD section of the Constitution.
Read about Bob Shultz’s fight with the Government on the redress per his questions on the tax code.
The courts have ruled that CONgress isn’t required to answer his petition.
Bob is a man who has fought with great conviction over the years to try and get his petitions answered…to no avail.
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14th November 2012 at 12:55 pm
BUCKHED says:
How many on this sight fly their state flag first and then the US flag ?
I do because I live in the Sovereign State Of South Carolina..
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14th November 2012 at 12:57 pm
Bullock says:
Flash, I went to that site to sign the petition for my state and first I must open a Whitehouse.gov account. Probably so they can put me on another FEMA camp list. I will be moving my way right up the list once again. I might get to be my camp leader if I keep trying. The future is starting to look bright.
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14th November 2012 at 3:12 pm
John A says:
An interesting opinion on the possible secession of Texas by bullion dealer Don Stott of Colorado Gold. Although I do not currently live there, Texas is my native state and home to most of family and high school classmates.
Texas Secede?
Texas secede? They’ve been talking about it for years, and now they may be serious! I hope so, but it’ll take a lot more than 30,000 signatures on the White House e-mail. It would take a vote of the whole state, and I think it could happen. If it did, what would life in Texas be like? Try this on for size, and if it happens, I’m moving there.
The Free Nation of Texas would have a constitution, naturally. It might be similar to ours with the leaving out of the 14th and 17th Amendments, but an additional one which prohibits governmental subsidizing anything at any time, for any reason. No Handouts, welfare, or ‘public’ anything, including, transport, health, retirement, but naturally excluding roadways. No unbalanced budgets, and no government bonds or securities on sale. No politician could vote to hand out largess from the public treasury, so government would never get out of control or grow like Topsy. English would be the official language in the Free Nation of Texas, and non-speakers would be suspect and deported.
There would be absolutely NO FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, or BUREAUCRATS. No OSHA, no Departments of anything at the federal level. No federal taxes collected on income, telephones, electricity, gasoline, diesel, or anything else. Texas would run the airports and be responsible for safety on the runways or in the planes. No TSA. Texas would check the railroads, which don’t need it, so there would be no federal messing with Texas roads, railroads, ports, or of transport of any kind. Texas would control their own education, agriculture, labor, medicine, hospitals, air traffic, and would eliminate all state welfare, because all federal welfare would be out. Welfare is a disease which the Free Nation of Texas would avoid at all costs, leaving charity to volunteerism or churches, which cost taxpayers nothing. Eventually, public schools would be phrased out, as well as school taxes, with parents being responsible for their children’s education, which would be extremely cost effective. Personal responsibility, would be the key phrase and attitude in the Free Nation of Texas.
Recipients of U.S. Social Security and Medicare, would continue till their death, but all those not on them would receive their money back, and Texans would save for their own retirement, and pay their own medical bills, which would soon become very competitive and reasonable. All the federal employees and bureaucrats would be out of jobs, and would probably put their homes up for sale and leave. Their homes would be bought by freedom loving people, who wanted to live in the Free Nation of Texas. The federal buildings would be sold to the highest bidders, who would undoubtedly use them for profit making enterprises. National parks and monuments would become Texan monuments and parks. The interstate highways would remain, but be maintained by Texas, with no interference from D.C.
Texas would seal their borders with Mexico quickly, and at their own expense, since the federal border patrol would be out of a job. Texans would control their own borders very effectively, and private land owners who were trod upon by illegals or anyone else, would be free to shoot the intruders with impunity. Texas would send all illegals back to Mexico, except those who had been there for may years, learned English, and contributed to Texas society. They could be made citizens of the Free Nation of Texas.
Texas would be neutral, and the National Guard would be returned to what it was originally,. and that was the State Guard. Texas being neutral, and not have problems with other nations, so the state militia, state guard, and of course the famous Texas Rangers, would make the place safe, with no men going to foreign nations to fight absurd wars. No draft registration, no veterans, foreign embassies, and no foreign aid, including none to the United States, which will go down in economic flames eventually, thanks to government handouts. No FBI, CIA, or ATF admitted to The Free Nation of Texas. The Free Nation of Texas would not belong to the absurd United Nations, IMF or World Bank, and would take no dictation, rules or laws from any outside organization.
Dollars would be used at first, but the Lone Star Dollar would begin to be circulated, and its printing limited to so many thousand of them per citizen, so there would be no inflation. Gradually, the Lone Star Dollar would make the US dollar look silly, since it buys less and less all the time, but the Lone Star Dollar would hold its value, and replace the D.C. version. “Good money drives out bad money.” Telephones and the Internet wouldn’t be affected by secession, and Texas would sever itself from the electrical grid, and provide it’s own electricity. There would be no EPA to harass everyone, and without a government calling a mud puddle a ‘wetland,’ or the ‘earth warming’ nonsense and rules,. the lack of myriad federal bureaucracies would make the Free Nation of Texas a wonderful example of freedom from government.
Like Switzerland, everyone would be required to own a gun and know how to use it. No ‘carry laws,’ or restrictions keeping citizens from protecting themselves. The liberals in Texas, mostly around Austin, would feel very uncomfortable, and would probably feel far more at home outside of Texas, so they would leave I am certain, or radically change their outlooks. Texas has a governor who is a nice guy, but not very bright, as the debate proved, but he doesn’t want secession, so he might be replaced with a bright, freedom loving, libertarian type of president. Millions would want to live in the Free Nation of Texas, and naturally business and manufacturing would move there, where the atmosphere was friendly towards people, business, and manufacturing. The huge reduction in the cost of living, and the freedom from Washington’s claws, would be astounding! No more federal income taxes, Social Security, or Medicare payments or deductions from one’s pay, and the freedom from Washington, would so refreshing, that other states would be sure to try to follow. Oklahoma, actually is more conservative-libertarian than Texas, so maybe they would join Texas in leaving the union, and the new nation could combine bother states.
Years ago, Washington, Oregon, and Idaho considered combining and seceding, but Washington and Oregon both went for Obama, so that would never work. Texas has everything it needs to be completely independent. It’s got seaports, oil, sunshine, and lots of Texans, who are wonderful people. When I had three hotels in Silverton Colorado, we used to say that, “Texas money keeps Colorado Green.” Texans are great people, and the phrase, “Don’t Mess With Texas,” could take on a new meaning if Texas seceded and became the Free Nation of Texas!” “Don’t Mess With Texas,” would be the national slogan and even be on the Lone Star Flag.
I don’t spend hours writing these columns, and they come right off the top of my aged brain, so I am certain there are many things I haven’t thought about or mentioned here, but the idea could very well take root, and blossom. These ideas are not Republican, but libertarian, which name comes from ‘liberty.’ Send it to everyone you know in Texas, and tell them I am rooting for them. Go Texas!
http://www.coloradogold.com/archive/Should_Texas_Secede-1212.html
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14th November 2012 at 5:27 pm
Kepi says:
@ Todd, that may have been the original intent, but the overall trend has been to handle things through the federal level, largely because you can use the interstate commerce clause to justify nearly anything, and it behooves both workers and employers to have really similar laws and legal traditions from state to state because it means that the pool of possibilities for both are larger. Usually where there is a contradiction is where people get arrested accidentally (know a guy who moved from a very red state to a very blue one, got picked up on a weapons charge because he didn’t know his permit wasn’t accepted in MD. When he gave the officer the courtesy, he got arrested).
@ Novista, they have paperwork at the courthouse. By leaving the federal government without hostility, they still own that property (and even if they EVER allowed a state to leave without an embargo, it’d be conditional on them keeping that property).
And I’m just calling a spade a spade the seccessionist sentiment can marshall no armies and they know it. They’ve got nothing in the tank, and so they’re trying to get something with the same crap tactics that cohort has been using since the beginning, which are being loud and being obstructionists. They simply don’t have the meat, which would be millennals willing to die for the cause, or the brains, which would be mid to late Gen X willing to lead it, and the successionists. Cause doesn’t offer any pragmatic benefits to those people. The way it will come off is “Are you ready to die for another one of mommy and daddies little tantrums?” The response to which will of course be “No, you need to shut up and suck it up, just like the rest of us.”
@ RE Civil War is less unlikely unless you’re talking between factions of the military, who would be seeking control of the whole show. If the Federal Government fell, almost every state and local government would as well, because even the ones that aren’t crippled with major debt (and unlike federal debt, it’s not a debt to itself) are reliant on Federal money. Your local fire department? Probably recieves a lot of federal cash either directly or transfered from the state. Police? You bet.
As for regional governments rising up from a fallen Fed, that’s unlikely unless you’re talking “over the course of several hundred years”. Maintaining an advanced economy requires a lot of infrastructure and infrastructure now is not distributed in a way that respects state or even regional lines, and infact it usually crosses them specifically to unite places despite state lines. Because of this, we don’t have an evenly distributed economy, and in fact many goods we consider pretty common would be much more difficult to produce. The example I’ll use here is beer. Most American microbrews use hops from the Pacific Northwest (Nor Cal, Oregon, and Washington), but they’re used all over the country (Frome Stone’s and Rogue on the West Coast to New Belgium in Colorado, to Brooklyn, Dominion and Dogfish Head on the East Coast just to rattle of some). Now, let’s say DFH wants to buy some hops from Washington and one of your regional governments is the MIMAL states, right? Now from the MIMAL region’s perspective, why should they let a trainload of hops through their land? It’s not going to them. So they put a tarriff on goods passing through their states. So who gets pissed? The people in PacNor and the people in the Mid Atlantic. And the inevitable result is going to be war on the lazy states in the middle to make easy, less expensive unified trade return. Because people want their beer and they want it the way it’s always been. A disolution will have to e a really slow burn, lasting centuries so infrastructure can readjust to accommodate it. We modeled ourselves on Rome and when we fall, we will fall in the same way.
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14th November 2012 at 5:41 pm
flash Looo says:
Bullock – maybe I’m assigned to you camp?
Look me up.I’ll be the guy black marketing canned sardines , Beanie weenies , three musketeers and home-made brew out of five gallon water cans.
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14th November 2012 at 5:52 pm
flash says:
I don’t t know where the LOO came from , but I do still know how to get there.
WP is amazing.If you agree thumbs up!
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14th November 2012 at 5:54 pm
Eddie says:
John A
There is no reason to think that if Texas were to be able to exercise its sovereignty (which is in itself extremely doubtful) that a libertarian style of government would somehow magically spring up.
Texas has its own bureaucracies already, admittedly somewhat less onerous than some other places…but far from libertarian. The public schools are bastions of socialism, shaped by federal guidelines for a whole generation and then some. And Texas has a big Free Shit Army that wouldn’t suddenly disappear.
We have city and county governments in place that wouldn’t disappear. They would just have to learn to function without federal money, which would be difficult , at least at first.
Texas has its State Legislature, where laws are made by lobbyists, just like in Washington. Why would that suddenly change overnight?
How and why would Texas pay anyone back money they put into Social Security? Where would the money come from? How would Medicare payments continue for the elderly? Texas has no income tax to pay for that. The federal government is broke. There are no allocated funds for them to somehow return, even if they were predisposed to do that…although I’m not sure why they would be so inclined anyway.
It’s true that Austin is a liberal community, but the 47% is spread out all over the state, and concentrated in urban centers like Dallas and Houston.
If Texas were suddenly out of the Union, the first thing that would be liable to happen is…new taxes. Along with new bureaucracies designed to replace the federal ones that millions of people depend on.
Articles like the one you posted are just wishful thinking, imho. Not reality based at all.
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14th November 2012 at 6:23 pm
John A says:
Eddie,
Some good thoughts on the opinion posted above. John A
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14th November 2012 at 6:44 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
Just published a full article featuring HZKs Secession Scenario for TX, now up on the Diner
http://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/11/15/secession/
RE
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14th November 2012 at 7:03 pm
sensetti says:
Thanks RE
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14th November 2012 at 7:15 pm
Kepi says:
In your scenario, once Texas shuts down the oil flow, there’ll be a war, and tell me exactly how you’re going to attract young people to fight in that? All an independant Texas would mean for them is a huge import tax on everything they want access to and a further delay in access to obtaining respectable adulthood status (the job, the girl, the house, and the kids) fighting a war that gets them nothing. Good luck on that one.
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14th November 2012 at 7:29 pm
flash says:
RE, I was over at the DD this morning and would be remiss not to mention the fact that admin allows you to post comments linking articles to your site , but you don’t return the favor.
WTF?
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14th November 2012 at 7:29 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“If the Federal Government fell, almost every state and local government would as well, because even the ones that aren’t crippled with major debt (and unlike federal debt, it’s not a debt to itself) are reliant on Federal money. Your local fire department? Probably recieves a lot of federal cash either directly or transfered from the state. Police? You bet.”-Kepi
What is the Debt Denominated in? Dollars. When (not if) Da Federal Goobermint Falls, all Dollar Denominated Debt is worthless. All FRNs are worthless, like a Confederate Dollar.
Secessionary States will have to issue their own Currencies, like the Greeks will have to issue Drachma once out of the EU. I go over this in the Secession article over on the Diner.
RE
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14th November 2012 at 7:38 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“RE, I was over at the DD this morning and would be remiss not to mention the fact that admin allows you to post comments linking articles to your site , but you don’t return the favor.”-Flash
Jim is perfectly free to drop in at the Diner and Plug his articles. Ashvin Pandurangi (formerly of The Automatic Earth, now writing the Picturing Christ blog) drops in regularly to Plug his latest article.
On the Blog, all articles get Full Link backs to the originating website right at the top of the article if it is from a Cross Posted article. Jim’s “Outlaw Josey Wales” article which I cross posted has full linbacks and byline credit.
RE
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14th November 2012 at 7:45 pm
Kepi says:
RE – A Texan currency would need to be backed by something and a Texan seccession would need to be seen as legitimate internationally. You could try to back it with Gold but Texas doesn’t have that much slugged away that isn’t already encumbered by something. A large enough oil reserve might do it, but reserve oil wouldn’t be sold so your possible output would be out. The US isn’t going to be friendly towards a seccessionist state so they’re out and there’s a good chance it’ll lead to war or an embargo. Mexico isn’t going to want to trade, because it’d upset the US and Texas needs the trade because they don’t have the economic infrastructure to survive on their own. No state does, we’re all interlinked, and even then we’d need to retool as a nation to be selfsustaining.
So regarless of the value of the new currency, if you can’t spend it outside of Texas, Texas or any other seccessionist state will have more problems than it started with. Who is actually going to want to fight that war? It’d be decades before it turned in to any kind of advantage.
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14th November 2012 at 10:26 pm
sensetti says:
Well-loved. Like or Dislike:
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14th November 2012 at 10:58 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“RE – A Texan currency would need to be backed by something and a Texan seccession would need to be seen as legitimate internationally. You could try to back it with Gold but Texas doesn’t have that much slugged away that isn’t already encumbered by something. A large enough oil reserve might do it, but reserve oil wouldn’t be sold so your possible output would be out.”-Kepi
I covered this in the Secession article Kepi.
http://www.doomsteaddiner.org/blog/2012/11/15/secession/
“Besides the numerous infrastructure and distribution problems any given State or Region will have resultant either from Secession or Civil War, the major economic problem all face is how to replace the currency of the Dollar? Obviously, if TX Seceeds from the Union, no Retired Texans will be able to collect their Social Security from the FSofA. In all likelihood, any Texan with an account on the NYSE will have all of it Confiscated on account of Treason. Whatever portion of the Gold in Fort Knox and in the Basement Safe of the NYFRB that is NOT Tungsten and might belong to Texas obviously will not be handed over to Texas after they Seceed. They can kiss any Gold they don’t have inside Texas borders goodbye.
So, this basically leasves them with trying to establish a currency based on the Oil they have left, which might last just Texans a while but not if they start exporting it as a Trade good. Not sure what other Trade goods Texas makes at a competitive price with what the Mejicanos across the border make, so then you work your way into being a self-contained, independent and self-sufficient economy. Given the Drought problems Texas has experienced lately, as a self-sufficient economy for Food & Water, it is not real clear exactly how many people Texas has carrying capacity for by itself, even if it was allowed to Seceed.
Far from being “impossible” though as numerous commenters on the TBP Blog maintain, even if there is no “legal” means to effect a Secession by Petitions, eventually Da Federal Goobermint is going to be so dysfunctional that States or Regions will eventually start drifting off and the Power Vacuum gets filled by more Local Power Brokers and Warlords. Eventually when the Dollar Fails, various Military Bases and Commanders will declare Martial Law in their localities, and form Defacto Military Dictatorships of these Regions. Factions within the Military will vie for control, and there will be disputes between regions over shared resources like the water supply. Eventually gas will become unavailable for the military to move around, and then these larger Regional groupings will go through another round of One-to-the-Many fracturing.”
RE
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14th November 2012 at 12:17 am
Terry says:
The majority of “Texas oil” is now from the Gulf of Mexico in Federal waters. Some of it is piped to refineries along the Texas coast (mostly in the “Blue” areas of Houston-to-Beaumont), but none of it has to be. Much oil is loaded to tankers in the Gulf, then shipped to where ever. Practically none of the corporations owning/operating these platforms are Texas companies. Many are not even American companies; in fact, most are not.
There is precious little oil being produced from onshore production. Those days are gone …except for fracking operations. Fracking companies are also not Texas owned. Further, it takes huge expenditures of capital to commence this type of operation. Big capital does not need to risk their money in a politically unstable area when there are other safe fracking sites throughout the US.
I am in Houston. Naturally, I’ve heard all the secessionist talk …for years. It’s generally done by old white guys on Social Security sitting behind a Dell keyboard all day …with nothing better to do. Now, I am hearing something new. The “Blue” areas of Texas are talking that THEY should break away from the rest of Texas to rid themselves of the neo-cons. They’ll be taking their oil with them, along with all the technology and expertise accompanying it.
Something else to consider. No one has asked the Latinos what they think …not publicly anyway. I’ve been doing my own polling in that regard. Well, let’s just say they, “…ain’t doin’ no stinkin’ suck-session!” The Latinos I’ve questioned are 100% against it. In case you aren’t aware, most of the hard, dirty work in the state of Texas is done by Latinos …you could almost safely say all of it. Texas comes to a dead stop tomorrow if they decide to “not come to work.” If you have the Latinos against you in this state, you are going to fail. And by the way, they just figured out that they have a whole lot of power at the polls…
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14th November 2012 at 1:29 am
Kepi says:
Good point Terry, I generally don’t like pulling race into things if it doesn’t need to be done, but yeah I couldn’t see the Latino community, the people who worked their asses off to live in The USA and be Americans to let themselves get screwed out of that by Texan nationalists.
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14th November 2012 at 1:48 am
Kepi says:
Also, RE…
You’re missing the point here, I think which is that nobody will be willing to play the warlord game, especially when the Federal government goes to disasterous hyperinflation because if they can’t eat, they’re going nowhere.
The far more likely scenario is a coast to coast federation of local governments who start using their own currency to keep their essential personel working, starts with one, and then more and more counties sign on either becausethey can’t think themselves out of their own problems or because they’re strapped and sunk, too and the essential folks make the command decision because they want to get paid. This spreads and spreads and what you’re left with is a single new, unified federated state, unfettered by the bindings of the old US Federal government or bank.
The Warlord thing would workout only if we had a nation wide food shortage, and we don’t have an actual food shortage, we just have pointlessly high grocery bills. War in a high infrastructure are ensures the locals will rise up against whoever tries to blow something up.
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14th November 2012 at 2:02 am
Reverse Engineer says:
“You’re missing the point here, I think which is that nobody will be willing to play the warlord game”-Kepi
That runs counter to just about every example of failed states. There is ALWAYS somebody who steps in to take control over smaller territories as bigger ones collapse. Vlad the Impaler Putin taking over Russia as the Soviet Union collapsed a typical example of this.
Gangs take over in areas abandoned by the Gestapo in places like Detroit and Los Angeles already. When you get a power vacuum in a small territory, there is alwys somebody who tries to make that their own fiefdom. Not that they usually have long lifespans of course, but it is a regular and predictable phenomenon.
RE
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14th November 2012 at 8:01 am
Thunderbird says:
If secession were to happen in all fifty States then we would even see the State governments shrink in size and scope because since the Buck Act and the Administrative Procedures Act state, city, and country governments operate as federal jurisdictions supported by federal money returned to the States.
Secession would definitely change the scope of and reach of government and commerce.
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14th November 2012 at 3:39 pm
Melissa says:
I keep hearing words “federal money.” Dont you mean taxpayer’s money? Every cent the federal govt makes(including money used to purchase “property” in all 50 states) stems back to the tax dollar. So technically speaking WE own every bit of this country, including the govt. Just putting that out there.
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14th November 2012 at 7:21 pm