THE WAR NO ONE THINKS COULD HAPPEN

While everyone is focused on conflict in the Middle East, with Syria, Iran and Israel as the expected next area of war, the China/Japan conflict has the potential to explode. New leadership in both countries do not want to lose face. There are factions within the U.S. military and government that believe we should put China in their place before they grow more powerful. War is always a function of economic realities. As Japan comes apart at the seams, the U.S. debt grows, and China overbuilds, the potential for war increases. Fourth Turnings always end with a major conflict. Don’t believe it can’t happen. No one expected a Civil War with 600,000 deaths in 1858. No one expected a World War with 65 million deaths in 1935.

Caught in a bind that threatens an Asian war nobody  wants

Date:
 
Hugh White

Creative diplomacy is urgently needed for a face-saving  solution.

THIS is how wars usually start: with a steadily escalating stand-off over  something intrinsically worthless.  So don’t be too surprised if the US and  Japan go to war with China next year over the uninhabited rocks that Japan calls  the Senkakus and China calls the Diaoyu islands.  And don’t assume the war would  be contained and short.

Of course we should all hope that common sense prevails.

It seems almost laughably unthinkable that the world’s three richest  countries – two of them nuclear-armed – would go to war over something so  trivial.  But that is to confuse what starts a war with what causes it.   The  Greek historian Thucydides first explained the difference almost 2500 years ago.  He wrote that the catastrophic Peloponnesian War  started from a spat between  Athens and one of Sparta’s allies over a relatively insignificant dispute.  But  what caused the war was something much graver: the growing wealth and power of  Athens, and the fear this caused in Sparta.

The analogy with Asia today is uncomfortably close and not at all reassuring.  No one in 431BC really wanted a war, but when Athens threatened one of Sparta’s  allies over a disputed colony, the Spartans felt they had to intervene.  They  feared that to step back in the face of Athens’ growing power would fatally  compromise Sparta’s position in the Greek world, and concede supremacy to  Athens.

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The Senkakus issue is likewise a symptom of tensions whose cause lies  elsewhere, in China’s growing challenge to America’s long-standing leadership in  Asia, and America’s response.  In the past few years China has become both  markedly stronger and notably more assertive.  America has countered with the  strategic pivot to Asia.  Now, China is pushing back against President Barack  Obama’s pivot by targeting Japan in the Senkakus.

The Japanese themselves genuinely fear that China will become even more  overbearing as its strength grows, and they depend on America to protect them.   But they also worry whether they can rely on Washington as China becomes more  formidable.  China’s ratcheting pressure over the Senkakus strikes at both these  anxieties.

The push and shove over the islands has been escalating for months.  Just  before Japan’s recent election, China flew surveillance aircraft over the  islands for the first time, and since the election both sides have reiterated  their tough talk.

Where will it end?  The risk is that, without a clear circuit-breaker, the  escalation will continue until at some point shots are exchanged, and a spiral  to war begins that no one can stop.   Neither side could win such a war, and it  would be devastating not just for them but for the rest of us.

No one wants this, but the crisis will not stop by itself.  One side or  other, or both, will have to take positive steps to break the cycle of action  and reaction.   This will be  difficult, because any concession by either side  would so easily be seen as a backdown, with huge domestic political costs  and   international implications.

It would therefore need real political strength and skill, which is in short  supply all round – especially in Tokyo and Beijing, which both have new and  untested leaders.  And each side apparently hopes that they will not have to  face this test, because they expect the other side will back down first.

Beijing apparently believes that if it keeps pushing, Washington will  persuade Tokyo to make concessions over the disputed islands in order to avoid  being dragged into a war with China, which would be a big win for them.  Tokyo  on the other hand fervently hopes that, faced with firm US support for Japan,  China will have no choice but to back down.

And in Washington, too, most people seem to think  China will back off.  They  argue that China needs America more than America needs China, and that Beijing  will back down rather than risk a break with the US which would devastate  China’s economy.

Unfortunately, the Chinese seem to see things differently.  They believe   America will not risk a break with China because America’s economy would suffer  so much.

These mutual misconceptions carry the seeds of a terrible miscalculation, as  each side underestimates how much is at stake for the other. For Japan, bowing  to Chinese pressure would feel like acknowledging China’s right to push them  around, and accepting that America can’t help them.  For Washington, not  supporting Tokyo would not only fatally damage the alliance with Japan,  it  would amount to an acknowledgment America is no longer Asia’s leading power, and  that the ”pivot” is just posturing. And for Beijing, a backdown would mean  that instead of proving its growing power, its foray into the Senkakus would  simply have demonstrated America’s continued primacy.  So for all of them, the  largest issues of power and status are at stake.  These are exactly the kind of  issues that great powers have often gone to war over.

So how do we all get out of this bind?  Perhaps creative diplomacy can find a  face-saving formula that defuses the situation by allowing each side to claim  that it has given way less than the other.  That would be wonderful. But it  would still leave the deeper causes of the problem – China’s growing power and  the need to find a peaceful way to accommodate it – unresolved.  That remains  the greatest challenge.

Hugh White is professor of strategic studies at ANU and a visiting  fellow at the Lowy Institute.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/caught-in-a-bind-that-threatens-an-asian-war-nobody-wants-20121225-2bv38.html#ixzz2GHQkrshR

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34 Comments
Ron
Ron
December 27, 2012 2:19 pm

China and Japan,something im not worried about.
I thought the article would be about the usa. Race or food or citizens against Tyrants.

Cynical30
Cynical30
December 27, 2012 2:47 pm

Ron this is extremely worrisome. It’s the ultimate Keynsian stimulus phallacy hanging in the balance if this touches off. It’s also the ultimate distraction as martial law is clamped down here and millions are shipped off to thin down the population. Personally I’m just waiting for the first shots to be fired SOMEWHERE and I won’t be surprised when they come. It’s getting cold out there.

Chicago999444
Chicago999444
December 27, 2012 2:48 pm

World wars have been triggered by less than all of this, and it’s really dangerous considering the 3000 year animosity between Japan and China. Feuds this old and bitter don’t get put to rest just because the antoginists decided to become “trading partners” for a while. Hardliners in both nations can safely bet that historic antagonism will outlast arrangements made to accommodate economic objectives that will be rendered moot as resources deplete and make the global economy unsustainable.

Hope@ZeroKelvin
Hope@ZeroKelvin
December 27, 2012 2:54 pm

@C-30: The phrase “phallacy hanging” followed by “this touches off” made me spit my green tea all over my laptop!!!!

Ahem.

Okay, we have the aging, indebted and Fukashima nuked Japs + the obese, bankrupt, tee-vee zombified Amerisheeple going to war with the slave labor minions of the ChiComs over some worthless specks of rock.

Rockes without strategic value, oil, gold, whatever.

Must be ANOTHER reason for all this.

card802
card802
December 27, 2012 2:58 pm

Why did Japan attack Peal Harbor? Did washington policies push them into a corner where all they felt they could do was strike first? Sanctions and a bad economy have a way of bringing out the crazy.

I agree, the entire world is a powder keg, no matter what corner you look there is conflict, just waiting for that spark.

AWD
AWD
December 27, 2012 3:15 pm

“They argue that China needs America more than America needs China, and that Beijing will back down rather than risk a break with the US which would devastate China’s economy.”

This type of hubris will indeed result in war. China does not need the U.S. for anything anymore. They don’t need our currency, they don’t need our debt, and they can live without our markets. The U.S. isn’t what it used to be, it’s a debt infested has been who still believes “we’re the champs” while our economy is on money-printing life support. What a joke.

China quit buying our t-bills/debt more than a year ago, yet they still hold more than $2 trillion of our debt. They dump the bonds, and they win the war without firing a shot. Our economy and government would be wiped out. China has also signed many trade agreements with productive, successful countries to circumvent using the dollar as reserve currency. China is moving past the U.S. very quickly, and we continue to sink into the abyss. And Japan is even worse shape.

A war with China would be the final stake in the U.S. heart. It would finish us off. Imagine if they didn’t export all their shit to us. Wal Mart would be 3/4 empty, no gadgets, computers, no replacement auto parts, no LED screens or replacement parts for military equipment. China makes virtually everything we use and buy, including sensitive military equipment.

Maybe a war with China would be good. We could start manufacturing and producing again in the U.S., and people could once again buy American products, and get some of the millions of jobs back we shipped to China. Keep dreaming.

There are more than 70,000 American troops stationed in Asia right now. A war would mean tens of thousands of U.S. casualties. A full scale war would mean hundreds of thousands more. Is Japan worth protecting? They’re in more debt than we are. The old days where you could rescue or rebuild your economy by going to war are finished, there is too much debt already. Our $16.4 trillion deficit will be our undoing, one way or another. China would take a $2 trillion loss just to bury us. Bernake is devaluing their t-bills faster than he can print money.

Colma Rising
Colma Rising
December 27, 2012 3:16 pm

Hope: The strategic value comes from the oil/fishing rights in a sizeable radius around the rocks.

The solution is easy.

Plant Old Glory on the rocks, open a Mcdonalds and that’ll settle it.

AWD
AWD
December 27, 2012 3:20 pm

Oh, and the more than $2 trillion of our debt the Chinese are holding:

“through debt interest alone, soon the US taxpayer will be funding 100% of the Chinese Military complex.”

AWD
AWD
December 27, 2012 3:22 pm

“By 2020, the US Government will be spending more annually on debt interest than the total combined military budgets of China, Britain, France, Russia, Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia, India, Italy, South Korea, Brazil, Canada, Australia, Spain, Turkey, and Israel.”

card802
card802
December 27, 2012 3:26 pm

I thought our military purchases a high percentage of electronic components from China?

Wouldn’t that be a hoot. We go to war with a country that supplies our military with parts for aircraft, missiles, drones….

Win-win for both I guess.

OF
OF
December 27, 2012 3:45 pm

There´s also another little problem with going to war with the China of today; if they´d have a serious, no strings attached mobilization you´d be talking about around 30 to 50 million soldiers, who might even be trained in guerilla tactics…
So, you´re basically talking endless supply of Vietnamese style little Chinese looking around for you. I´d stay away from them….

sangell
sangell
December 27, 2012 4:13 pm

OTOH, China has also been pushing around Vietnam and the Philippines over similiar territorial claims. Japan and the US have also been pulling Myanmar into our joint security orbit. While Japan’s armed forces aren’t that large ( at this time) they are capable. While no one is talking about invading China the balance of power will never be as favorable as now for administering a sound thrashing of China’s military as we would have strong regional allies including a new hard line South Korean president. Its also a fact that the Chinese military has not acquitted itself particularly well for centuries.

sangell
sangell
December 27, 2012 4:20 pm

AWD of course Japan is worth defending. It is the third largest economy in the world, a democratic nation with whom we have deeper political, economic and cultural ties than any other Asian nation and a defense treaty to boot.

Stucky
Stucky
December 27, 2012 4:23 pm

What’s in it for China ….. to go to war over some fuckin’ remote islands? Nothing.
What’s in it for Japan ….. to go to war over some fuckin’ remote islands? Nothing.

What does either country stand to lose if they go to war over some fuckin’ remote islands? Lots.

That’s why one (or both) of these countries will “blink”. ( But, I’ve made wrong predictions before, and so have you.)

Bruce
Bruce
December 27, 2012 5:46 pm

China at war with Japan would of course mean China at war with the USA. China knows this, Japan knows this. China can not deal with a war with the USA just yet unless they have Russia screwed in tight.. We would be in a precarious way regardless and perhaps devastated by the loss of material supply much of it basic and necessary. Things as mundane but important such as door hinges, dry wall screws, nails and toilet tank hardware would not be available.

If it came to war righ now the red bastards could be vaporized and everyone left standing over there would glow in the dark.

A war with China and the West is going to happen someday because there is not enough planet to go around.. It’s not a question of if t there will be a war with them or not but a question of when. For the USA and western civilization war with China right now would be better than later. For China it would be best for that war to come later. But at some point someone has to go.

The main problem concerning a conflict with China is keeping Russia out of the fight. We need to be working with Russia to that end until we strike a deal. If we do mange to get the Russian’s to stay on the sidelines we should go after China with all guns and wipe those fuckers of the face of the earth.

But right before we do that we should kill all the bankers. Do those things we will have removed the demons who own us now and will have eliminated the ones who will own us in the future if we do nothing.

A big war with China would be horrific. The human toll would be sickening. But unless the West is eliminated or China is eliminated there will be no chance for the world. So one or the other will happen. This is not a prediction. Just look at the numbers of people and mouths to feed. Look at the resources consumed, look at the demands for food, water and all commodities. Now look at the planet and its limits to support those things forever. Mankind can drag things out for a long time but this is one war that will happen.

The only thing that could prevent the inevitable conflict with China would be that the SHTF all over the planet so hard that it reduces the population of the world to levels counted in millions rather than billions. As bad as that sounds that would probably be the best thing for humanity and all life on our earth.

No mater. We are all Doomed one way or the other. And if we aren’t by some incredible chance our children certainly are. But right now there can still be many good days ahead to enjoy our families and what ever it is that each of us do…………… unless the FEMA Camp round up starts sooner than anticipated.

SSS
SSS
December 27, 2012 6:09 pm

“So don’t be too surprised if the US and Japan go to war with China next year over the uninhabited rocks that Japan calls the Senkakus and China calls the Diaoyu islands.”
—-from the article

Piffle. More neo-con bullshit. I’m with Stucky on this one ….. war will not happen. Stucky may have made wrong predictions in the past, and so have I (mostly on sports bets), but Team Stucky and SSS have NEVER been wrong.

Look, this shit has happened in the past. In the mid-1950s, speculation was great that the U.S. would hit Red China with nuclear weapons over two friggin’ rock-infested islands, Quemoy and Matsu, located in the Formosa Strait between mainland China and Formosa (Taiwan). The U.S. was an ally of Formosa, and China was shelling the shit out of Formosan troops stationed on those islands. Some members of Congress were openly calling for a nuclear attack on China.

President Eisenhower would have none of it, but he had to play his cards close to his chest and never rule out the possibility of a nuclear attack on China. When a reporter asked him point-blank at a news conference (Ike met with the press more times than any other president, did you know that?) whether he would use nuclear weapons to defend the Formosa Strait, Ike replied:

“The only thing I know about war was two things: the most changeable factor in war is human nature in its day-to-day manifestation; but the only unchanging factor about war is war is human nature. And the next thing is that every war is going to astonish you in the way that it occurred and the way it is carried out. So that for a man to predict, particularly if he had the responsibility for making the decision, to predict what he is going to use, how he is going to do it, would I think exhibit his ignorance of war, that is what I believe. So I think you just have to wait, and that is the kind of payerful decision that some day may face a president.”

You can read that a thousand times and not come up with a conclusion as to what Ike meant. Ike was a freakin’ genius because he told his press secretary, Jim Hagerty, BEFORE the news conference, “Don’t worry, Jim, if that question comes up, I’ll just confuse them.” Never in the history of the American presidency has anyone come close to that “WTF?” obfuscation of an answer to a question. And he did it on the fly.

Obama is certainly no Ike, but even he should be able to tap dance his way out of getting into the middle of a war with China. That’s why I’m with Stucky.

Stan
Stan
December 27, 2012 6:27 pm

No war with China, at least not for a long time.

SAH
SAH
December 27, 2012 6:50 pm

All it takes is one attack from North Korea on Japan or South Korea, and we will have total war in East Asia. North Korea hates Japan; Japan hates China; North Korea hates South Korea; South Korea wants to reunify with North Korea; Korea has historic ties to China and historic hatred of Japan but now South Korea shares US military in common with Japan; China hates Japan; Japan brutalized Korea and China during occupation in the early 20h century; Japan hates North Korea; China uses North Korea as a pawn; Japan and South Korea fight over islands; Japan and China fight over islands… It is a clusterfuck of 3,000 years of hostilities simmering just under the surface over there, and its truly a miracle that there has been 60 relatively quiet years.

Oh did I mention the Korean War never ended? The cease fire can be over anytime, and based on the North Korean affinity for attacking and provoking South Korea and Japan with kidnappings, shootings, ship sinkings, and missile launches it isn’t hard to imagine. I doubt that China or Japan will start things directly, but if the crazy North Koreans make one provocative misstep, it will be all out war as China will LOVE to jump in on that – and the US will have no choice since like retards we never allowed Japan to remilitarize, and we chose to split the Korean peninsula and give North Korea to Joseph Stalin as a bonus ‘gift’ along with East Germany for his help in WWII (even though Russia didnt help us at all in the war in the pacific), which did indeed cause the Korean War to begin with… Then we never let Gen MacArthur whip the commies back to he Yalu river (historic China/Korea border for 5,000 years) and reunify Korea when he had the commies running… we even gave back territory gained to resplit things right on the same DMZ. It’s a clusterfuck. We set up the perfect battlefield with our post-WWII meddling, and played right into 3,000 year old conflicts between China and Japan with our 200 year short sighted American ignorance and cozying up with Commie Russia and China.

All out war in East Asia is inevitable, especially thanks to America’s retarded splitting of the Korean Peninsula.

Llpoh
Llpoh
December 27, 2012 7:08 pm

SAH – please read SSS’s answer. He is our resident expert. China will disown NK in a heartbeat if it goes full rogue. China would most likely invade/assume control of NK in that event, in my humble opinion. China needs a major war like a hole in the head. They are rapidly becoming titans without firing a shot – no way they screw that up.

Now, India/Pakistan – that is a REAL powderkeg waiting for the right match.

SAH
SAH
December 27, 2012 7:28 pm

@LLPOH, I respectfully disagree. China will gladly strike when we are spread too thin. If we get into it with Iran, didnt China already announce that they will ally with Iran? While we are fooling around in the ME desert, their puppet state of NK can have Seoul nuked in 3 minutes, and their Million man NK Army over the border in <48 hours. If China 'invades' NK it will be to take the whole peninsula. It fucking pisses them off for us to be camping a few thousand troops on the mainland. How do you think we'd do in a dual-front world war? Think we can handle Iran and still keep the peace in Asia simultaneously? China will strike when they have the advantage. Oh, and regarding India/Pakistan… Yeah China will ally with the Pakis too. Iran/Pakistan/China/North Korea/Russia vs Israel/USA/India/South Korea/Japan – It would be a sad and pathetic match up. We can't even win Afghanistan.

Llpoh
Llpoh
December 27, 2012 7:46 pm

SAH – still do not see China cutting off their economic nose. They are winning a war of attrition. Re Iran, that would be an oil issue, and is critical to China’s economy. But notice how they let US waltz into Iraq? No real action from China when that happened. But they would not like to see the US take effective control of the entire ME. Re taking over SK, maybe, but it would cause them lots of economic issues.

SSS
SSS
December 27, 2012 7:49 pm

“it will be all out war as China will LOVE to jump in on that (a war between North Korea and ?) – and the US will have no choice since like retards we never allowed Japan to remilitarize”
—-SAH

Well, you certainly moved a lot of chess pieces with your comments, SAH, but I must take isse with the statement that we have never allowed the Japanese to remilitarize, when in fact we have. The Japanese Defense Forces (JDF) are extremely well armed (much of it coming from our military sales), well trained, well prepared, and ready to rock and roll in defense of their country, which is an island archipelego that is super difficult to invade, even today.

The JDF is more than competent to defend the country. What it is NOT capable of is any large-scale OFFENSIVE warfare operations. That’s the price Japan paid for losing in WWII.

I think the U.S. has struck a pretty good balance in its relations with Japan since the end of WWII. Just one thing remains. Get the fuck out of that country. It can take care of itself.

Llpoh
Llpoh
December 27, 2012 8:19 pm

Admin – the trouble is that the US is no longer a nation of free men, or at least is less so each passing day. By force, free men have their goods confiscated to pay for those that will not work, have their right to bear arms infringed, have their right to representation infringed, cannot rear their children as they deem fit, etc. Freedom is dying fast.

michaelj007
michaelj007
December 27, 2012 10:44 pm

ColmaRising is correcto. the disputed islands are all about offshore drilling rights, fishing rights and patrolling rights. There’s a significant amount of natural resources and strategic advantages at play in the China Sea. Perhaps if we hadn’t played big brother for Japan the last few decades we wouldn’t be concerned about the escalating tensions and possible liability.

Stucky
Stucky
December 28, 2012 1:26 am

“Stucky may have made wrong predictions in the past, and so have I (mostly on sports bets), but Team Stucky and SSS have NEVER been wrong.” —— SSS

Indeed. We ARE quite formidable. Invincible, even.

Has ANYONE refuted our points?? NO!! All those mangy curs can do is vote Thumbs Down, and run like scurred rabbits.

SSS and Stucky chasing a TBP pussy cur
[imgcomment image[/img]

SAH
SAH
December 28, 2012 3:24 am

I just don’t buy into the idea that war/no war is completely up to China and the US/Japan. A more likely scenario is Israel pulls us into a war with Iran (China and Russia take Iran’s side) and North Korea pulls us into a war in Asia (China and Russia take NK’s side). And yeah, I’m sure the Pakis would make their move on India in this scenario (China and Russia side with Pakistan). The teams have already been picked, allies and enemies determined, battlefields prepared. One thing goes off and the dominos all fall into place. We (and Europe) set up crazy artificial borders and meddled so much in both Asia and the Middle East that we can get pulled into massive world war against our will by other smaller states who have nothing to lose. Israel is crazy, North Korea is crazy, Pakistan ain’t our friend – and all are capable of starting crazy wars that we have already promised ourselves into.

SSS brings up Formosa as evidence of how we stayed out of nuking China… but we also already had a dress rehearsal in Korea where the Chinese and Russians fought us on behalf of NK. China didn’t stay out of it, they thought we were stupid pussies for giving 1/2 of Korea away for no reason so they decided to take the whole Korean peninsula and almost did… The Pusan perimeter was scary small, China almost had the whole country. They weren’t scared of America then (especially when we pussied out of similarly taking the whole peninsula – shaming ourselves by firing the 1 American who they did fear, Gen MacArthur) and they certainly aren’t scared of us now. If we had more sense, we would have kicked China’s ass then.

The China of today is far more militarily badass than the China of 1950-53. Plus they have hundreds of millions of young men who have no prayer of ever finding a wife – what good are they other than for war? Sending their surplus young males into war actually will solve one of China’s most pressing social problems. And economically? They know we are broke, and don’t really need us economically anymore. We can’t repay our debt, they know it, we cant afford to buy any more of their shit, they know it. So why wouldn’t they take payment in the form of world domination via takeover of SK and Japan and thwarting us in ME? It’s not the 1950s anymore. China would love to kick our ass, as long as we are in a weak position that makes it possible for them to win. We have a hard time even getting together 300k troops because our recruits are too fat to pass boot camp… And China has hundreds of millions of thin and fit young men with nothing to do and no future. Capturing women is one of the most ancient and primal purposes of human warfare. I see a lot of benefit to the Chinese, and the little islands are the least of it… Try pussy, oil, revenge, and becoming the next world super power.

Llpoh
Llpoh
December 28, 2012 4:40 am

SAH – one thing to remember is that China and Russia are natural enemies. Any alluance they might have would need to overcome that little issue.

Llpoh
Llpoh
December 28, 2012 4:42 am

Also, China is no match for the US in conventional warfare. Terrorists do ok, but not armies.

SAH
SAH
December 28, 2012 1:07 pm

@LLPOH – true regarding the tenuous relationship between Russia and China… However, Russia and China are even more ‘natural enemies’ with Japan and the US than each other… And Russia and China have all the same allies and enemies around the world – far stranger bedfellows have been made in war than Russia and China. The only friction between them would be in how to carve up the world. China wants the Orient and always has, and Russia wants the Occident and always has. If they agree on that, easy alliance. The best we could hope for would be for Russia to stay out of it – not likely – they are itching to stomp Poland, Georgia et al, plus Putin has tiger blood running through his veins.

Bob
Bob
December 28, 2012 3:53 pm

The current economic and social mood climates in the world argue against any large scale conflicts over the next several years. Regional flare-ups and ‘minor’ wars seem more likely as economic contraction becomes the primary preoccupation.

The biggest economic story out there right now is the Japanese Yen — it seems to have started to strengthen on the back of the deflation that is building to the next level in Japan. The Japanese govenment has recently turned over, and the new PM is focused on the threat. Japan is somewhat further down the deflation trail than are Europe and the US. China’s primary future advantage is that their system is not nearly as debt-saturated as the rest of the major powers, though their level of corruption certainly narrows the gap.

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