The recent expiration of the Extended Bennies for the Unemployed and the various arguments revolving around the FSA and the Social Welfare State that exists in most Western Industrialized countries has led me to muse on the problem of impoverization of societies. Many societies since the advent of Agriculture have had the problem of impoverished people, though it has become more acute here since the Age of Oil.
In the early years after the development of Agriculture, the problem of Impoverishment was resolved through Slavery. If you had no property and no power in the society, if you were to continue Living you became the Property of someone else, Beholden to that individual for your daily sustenance. Your existence was at his behest, you had no rights, you existed only to serve the Master. If you weren’t productive, if you were disobedient, the Master could punish you or take your life, with no legal repercussions for this.
However, even Slave Owners had some moral responsibility toward treating their slaves decently. Really nasty ones tended to have more problems with Slave Revolts, and being the slaves lived relatively nearby, they might occasionally cause you some problems if you were a particularly nasty Master. Even the Bible suggests that Masters should treat their Slaves well, just as they should be good stewards of their Cattle and their Lands. There is still some RESPONSIBILITY in the system.
With the advent of Industrialization and the Capitalist system, responsibility for the workers and for the Environment was completely lost. The monetary system provided a degree of separation between the Owners and the Slaves. No longer was the well being of any individual connected to that of another, even through direct ownership of a human life. The impoverishment of a given individual could be blamed on that individual, rather than his mistreatment at the hands of his owner.
As the Ag paradigm gave way to the Industrial paradigm in the 18th and 19th centuries, the inevitable impoverishment of the lowest classes of society led to many social problems. Beggars, Workhouses, an explosion of Prisons for Debtors as well as Criminals, which really were all essentially one in the same thing. This defined the world Charles Dickens lived in when he wrote novels like a Tale of Two Cities and Oliver Twist. It was an extremely unstable society, and for the entire period from the mid 1700s at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution with the advent of the Coal fired Steam Engine right through to the Second World War in the Age of Oil, Industrial Society was constantly engaged in one sort of war or another. The French and American Revolutions, the Napoleonic Wars in Europe, the Civil War here in the FSofA, these were all part and parcel of the same running battle, which ebbed and flowed in tandem with the monetary cycle of Capitalism as it progressed forward through the Industrial Age. Through all that time period, NO solution was ever found to the problem of the Have Nots that both the Ag paradigm and the Industrial paradigm create as a result of manufactured scarcity stemming from the Ownership of Property and the Means of Production. The simple fact of the matter is that as long as you have a very large society and allow some folks to become very Rich, this necessitates other folks becoming very Poor. It’s a Zero Sum Game for any society, but at least in the Ag Society there was still some responsibility taken for the Slaves by the Slave Owners. In Industrial Society, NO RESPONSIBILITY was taken, at least not until Otto Von Bismark developed the incipient Welfare State, and until the Bureau of Indian Affairs created a similar dependent population amongst the surviving aboriginals of the NA continent.
Through the latter stages of the Age of Oil, in most of the Industrialized world there has been enough surplus to buy off the impoverished inside each of these societies, but it has of course come by further impoverishing the rest of the world through this time period. Now as resources become too thin worldwide, its no longer possible to insulate the local impoverished in many industrialized countries, or more accurately it becomes less possible to do that by the day. The cut off of extended UE benefits here in the FSofA is just the beginning of the eviceration of the social welfare state, but with that also comes the evisceration of many of the control and protection mechanisms the State has evolved to maintain control over the population. In Camden, where the crime rate is already massive, the Police force has been cut in half as austerity budgets are put in place. In CA, there is a standing order by the SCOTUS to reduce the Prison population, way overcrowded and too costly to expand anymore. Where will said prisoners go? Out onto the streets of the now vastly expanded world of Charles Dickens.
Similarly, budget cuts in Education will further reduce the ability to warehouse children and discipline them into the kind of drones necessary to run an industrialized society. As anyone who worked in the field of Public Education knows, any semblance of “learning” was lost in these schools long ago and the last 20 years has been spent bloating the administrative end of education in the effort to keep some discipline in the environment. It has of course failed miserably even in that effort.
The end result here of the failure to accept responsibility for the society as a whole by the beneficiaries of that society is the dissolution of the social contract, and the collapse of this sort of society. The result of that is the legitimacy of the State as governor of the society will ultimately fail. The last gasp of such a society is of course is consolidation of the Haves in the society around a military dictatorship such as Rome had in its dying days. Dependent as this military infrastructure is now on the lifeblood of Oil, as the war to control it consumes the resource, this military structure will itself inevitably collapse, although it could take quite some time for that to play itself out. Before it does, the collapse of the social structure which was supported by the thermodynamic energy of oil will result in increasing civil disturbance requiring deployment of soldiers for internal control as well as fighting the external battles for control of the oil resource. Eventually this will over stretch the control ability on both ends, and then this form of organization will itself collapse. Its doubtful that this collapse takes as long as it did for the Roman Empire, which was spread over a few centuries. This one more or less will follow the Peak Oil curve, and likely will play itself out over a single century at the most.
So we return now to the question of what happens in the aftermath of this collapse? The Social Welfare State funded as it was by the Thermodynamic Energy of Oil is clearly in its Death Throes. The society cannot function with millions of people living in abject poverty with no means of making a living “honestly”, nor any support from the State apparatus. The idea that Private Enterprise will spring up magically once the support mechanisms are withdrawn is to say the least, utterly ludicrous. Rather what you will get are individual areas sorting themselves out locally to develop some sort of sustainable local economy. I’m not talking “sustainable” in the long term, just sustainable meaning they don’t devolve into Mad Max and Cannibalism in the near term. The larger the local population is relative to locally available resources of food and water, the more likely that area is to devolve into Mad Max. Read that: The Big Shitties are TOAST.
As noted in my recent thread on the topic of Expats and Escape, its still possible if you have some money and a willingness to relocate to get out of the way of the worst of the near term dislocations. However, generally speaking for most people with typical Job Skills, you won’t be able to find a job in the new location you go to, so you better have enough currently functioning money to set yourself up independently in the neighborhood, until that neighborhood develops its own local economy. I do agree that for the most part Oz and NZ are better places for White Anglos than the Lower 48 of the FSofA. Please migrate there rather than Alaska. LOL.
Wherever you do migrate however, do not expect a free ride through the Zero Point, no place will remain untouched as we wean ourselves off the Jones of our addiction to Oil. All communities that have been connected to the Global Banking system and the Industrialized economy will suffer extreme dislocation. However, with luck in the smaller communities off the beaten path, it won’t be the kind of Mad Max the Big Shitties experience. That will be a Nightmare beyond all the most horrific legends of the Dark Ages. Vlad the Impaler will return, and with him will come the armies of Werewolves, Zombies and Vampires.
Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You.
RE
Old Silverttp says:
Simply amazing. Forgive my lack of joy at your elan. This one I’m sharing with those who will listen.
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4th December 2010 at 10:24 pm
Cpt. Swindle says:
This article raises a very interesting question, “What will happen when people who have been totally depend on govt programs there ENTIRE lives (welfare, public projects) do to survive when there is no govt. goodies to support them” Starve? no human would lay around and starve to death (I take that back) no american population would starve to death when the neighbors up the street have stocked pantrys and 7-11 is open 24-7. What will happen in cities when thousands of people suddenly are cut off from food and govt. benefits? Holy shit!!! Still think Manhatten is so very hip and cosmopolitan?
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4th December 2010 at 10:29 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
Thanks OS
I think its still a ways off before we reach the stage where even SNAP cards are pulled from the population of the completely destitute. So I don’t think we will be subject to Food Riots in the near term. In fact, for so long as the FSofA holds together as a single nation with a single currency I think there will be basic life support in terms of food. Far as shelter goes, as is evident already Squatting will become way more common.
Where you will run into further problems would be in a breakup and secessionary movement. Then even the SNAP cards won’t work, but then neither will Cash and exactly how much food you will be able to buy for a gold coin is an open question as well. So it won’t just be the folks who have been lifelong recepients of State check who will be having problems, it will be nearly everybody. This of course would be the time you get the return of Vlad the Impaler, Zombies and Vampires.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 10:27 am
StuckInNJ says:
“The poor will be with you always”
Jesus — circa 2,000+ years ago
You hate capitalism. But your “ism”, be it Tribal or whatever else, will never ever solve the problem of the poor.
Get over it.
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4th December 2010 at 10:37 am
Reverse Engineer says:
“You hate capitalism. But your “ism”, be it Tribal or whatever else, will never ever solve the problem of the poor. ” Stuck
Well, it certainly won’t at the elevated population level we have now, but as you well know IMHO one of the results of Peak Oil will be much lower agricultural yields, with a resultnt die off of a substantial portion of the population. You do agree with the Peak Oil hypothesis I believe, you do know that current agricultural yields result from oil based fertilizers and mechanized farming, so do you believe the curent population will be maintained over the next century or so?
As far as Jesus is concerned, he had a very parochial view since he was born into an Ag Society, which as I indicated generally handled the problem of poverty through slavery. He wasn’t real familiar with the life of a hunter gatherer, unless you believe he was God, which I don’t. Anyhow, while the Poor may always be with us, that doesn’t mean the Rich have to be
Its a relative thing really, and so in societies which from the outside appear to us as “poor”, such as say Aboriginal Bushmen in Australia, they don’t feel “poor” until brought into the cities from the bush, at which point of course they generally have a lot of problems.
The problem you have Stuck is you think on a much shorter timeline than I do. You make blanket statements like “Tribalism can NEVER work” or “The Poor will ALWAYS be with us”. You are 100% cock sure of this, just like Helicopter Ben is cock sure he knows exactly how to run the economy. You don’t believe you can possibly be wrong on this. I do admit the possibility I could be wrong, I just posit this as a likely outcome based on what I see so far.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 1:23 pm
TeresaE says:
I’m not as scared at the end of the FSA handouts as so many seem to be.
Because LONG before that happens, their budgeted handouts (and millions of citizens pensions, and SS checks) will cease to mean much.
Long before the gravy train’s engine seizes, the gravy won’t be spreading as far. I read an article a couple years back ( I believe it was the Chicago Trib, but I could be wrong) outlining Chicago’s inner city families, and the fact that many of them buy their food at the 7/11 and go largely hungry (at least the kids in school get free lunch while dodging bullets) for two weeks (or more) a month.
These are people who think “cooking” is a box of macaroni and cheese and that a diet pop is the healthiest liquid option.
Add to this the reality that over 50% of our food is imported, and the fact that Ben’s prescription is going to drive the cost of that food through the roof, and if you aren’t scared of what happens BEFORE the bitter end, you may still be delusional.
Three days of food stands between civilization and the starving animals with reptiles brains.
As if we actually can, I still suggest we all prepare accordingly.
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4th December 2010 at 3:53 pm
StuckInNJ says:
RE — I agree with your 2nd paragraph entirely. The current population can not be maintained even in the next 50 years … no less the next 100. Finite resources … and all that .. will soon bite mankind in the ass. At some point in time, science will no longer come to the rescue.
I disagree that my blanket statement, “The poor will always be with us”, is a result of short term thinking.
I prefer to believe it is based on reality. The reality of mankind’s 5,000+ recorded history. … including this century in which the USofA has literally spent trillions in it’s “war on poverty” … and yet, ….yet ………. the poor are still here. Tough to explain that away.
Here’s the deal. Let’s say the current 7 billion or so population is culled down to a mere one million. Guess what? A few hundred thousand of those will still be poor. Oppression, my friend. It is the way of man. Jesus knew it. Now so do you. :>)
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4th December 2010 at 4:46 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
No Stuck, its not the “way of man”. Its the way of man since the advent of agriculture, followed by slavery. You simply are incapable of thinking outside that paradigm, and it gets tiresome rehashing the same arguments over and over again with you. Jesus knew life inside the agricultural paradigm, that was the zeitgeist under which he taught his philosophy. It was for the most part accurate for that way of life, but it isn’t accurate when societies shrink down to units of around 10,000 Human Souls. So, if you take your hypothetical 1M People left that you suggest and break them up into 100 Groups of 10,000 People each and sprinkle them out around the Globe within boundaries they can be self sufficient, there is no reason in priniciple it cannot last in perpetuity. There will of course be border wars, but that just serves to keep the population in check.
You don’t have to drop into prehistory of 5000 years ago to validate this, plenty is known about how Australian Aboriginals live, how the Tlingit lived, how the Inuit lived. A population of 1M worldwide would easily allow for such organization to reassert itself, in fact its more than likely it would. Societies that small depend on cooperation, not oppression. You are simply thoroughly brainwashed into thinking this way. No you know this, so you can free yourself
RE
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4th December 2010 at 5:19 pm
StuckInNJ says:
So I suppose NONE of Jesus’ teachings hold water because he lived in an Ag society? How silly … even for you.
The very NATURE of humanity hasn’t changed on iota since the dawn of recorded history. Otherwise, why would we have need for the commandment, “You shall not bear false witness”? You see … telling lies was a problem back then in an Ag society, just as it is now in our modern industrial/information/whatever society. .
YOU are the one with blinders on. You truly live in a fantasy world where everything is peachy keen and we hold hands singing kumbyah … if ONLY people lived in small tribes. Truly, this is a Fantasy World of your own making. Maybe you should read Lord of the Flies. It might help you get a grip.
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4th December 2010 at 6:31 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
I didn’t argue that all of Jesus’ teachings are wrong because he lived in an Ag society. Those are your words, not mine. All I argued was that this particular attitude is one which is an artifact of the Ag Society. You make a generalization here in order to further your own arguments, but its not a generalization I actually make. This Stuck is the kind of misdirection you employ all the time in your arguments, which is why it is so unproductive to argue with you.
Anyhow, by no means do I live in Kumbaya fantasy world, I already acknowledged that you still have warfare on the borders between tribes, and there is most certainly still internal conflicts within a tribe itself. However, by no means is any tribe as stratified as the Ag Society is, and its demonstrable fact that the Inuit lived for roughly 10,000 years up here in Alaska in a relative balance with the surroudings. Its demonstrable fact that the Tinglit ran a Potlatch economy for at least 2000 years, which actually served upwards of 100,000 people through several tribes. You simply don’t wish to hear any of this stuff, it doesn’t fit your Judeo-Christian world view. Feel free to live in your nightmare world. I woke up from that nightmare, its about time you did too.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 7:38 pm
llpoh says:
Stuck – if we had used the tag-team attack on RE when he put up his first post, perhaps the end result would have been different. Now his entrenched like a tick in a dog’s ear. So there it is, a living, breathing refutation of your newbies rule. Now you can apologize to all those people who know who they are, ’cause maybe they were right after all.
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4th December 2010 at 7:55 pm
StuckInNJ says:
RE: “You make a generalization here in order to further your own arguments …”
SiNJ: Well, DUH!!! Next time I WON’T try to further my own argument. That”ll be fun. We all generalize when we’re not being specific. Is every comment you make specific, or do you not generalize also? Complaining how someone argues is a sure sign that that the complainer (you) is losing the argument as he (you) has nothing of substance to say.
==========
RE: “This Stuck is the kind of misdirection you employ all the time in your arguments, which is why it is so unproductive to argue with you.”
SiNJ: In psychology that is known as Projection. In other words, you accuse me of what you yourself do. You are the Master of Redirection. Have you ever read your own posts?
FACT: I have conceded arguments, several times.
FACT: You NEVER give an inch. In fact, you’re proud of being obstinate. Nice try, though.
============
How do you verify how the Intuit lived 10,000 years ago? Was there an “Intuit Living For Dummies” book unearthed by Archeologists? You make shit up as you go along. Very creative. Also very unverifiable. Talk about an unwinnable agrument!!!
============
I’m not a Christian. Nor a Jew. I believe in neither heaven or hell, nor dozens of other doctrines particular to those two belief systems. I do however believe that there are good moral teachings therein. Not sure that means I have a Judeo-Christian worldview. Truthfully, I have more of a Seinfeldian worldview.
Bottom line. You are a stubborn old fuck. And I honestly believe I’d enjoy having a brewsky with you as I napalm the shit out of you in person. We’d draw a crowd … and capitalist pig that I am, I’d charge for tickets … while you’d be happy with some po tlock dinner. Potlatch. Whatever. lol
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4th December 2010 at 8:07 pm
StuckInNJ says:
llpoh —
I don’t know about all that apology stuff. At the time I wrote it I was still being influenced by something Jim wrote a couple days ago … regarding his son’s confirmation. He was talking about how he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
I know what this means from my earlier years, prior to becoming a lost heathen. And so it resonated with me. I said to myself, “Self, you need to be filled with the Holy Spirit again.”
And it became so.
However, it did not last. I am back to my normal unfilled self.
So, fuck the apologies I say!! Fuck that douchbag I defended in the other post. And fuck the poor too!! Get a fuckin’ job and you won’t be poor you fuckin’ lazy ass bitchezz.
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4th December 2010 at 8:15 pm
LLPOH says:
Stuck – you will need a manager for the big event. We will rent out the new Yankee Stadium, and set a bar up in the middle. My cut would be 10% of the gross.
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4th December 2010 at 8:18 pm
LLPOH says:
Stuck – glad you are back in full flight. Check out SSS post in the main article. A beauty.
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4th December 2010 at 8:19 pm
Kill Bill says:
The Essenes were intentionally poor. It had nothing to do with oppression or exploitation. They chose to live the way they did.
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4th December 2010 at 8:49 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
@ Stuck
How about we do a movie “My Diner with RE”? LOL.
As far as how we know about how folks lived 10,000 years ago, its pretty well preserved in the fossil record. There’s a very good collection at the Alaska Native Heritage Center, and quite a few friendly folks who work there, some natives, some anglos. I bring my students there twice a year usually. You can read a little here for a start:
http://www.alaskanative.net/en/main_nav/education/culture_alaska/eyak/
The main reason we know how they lived is because it changed very little over the course of 10,000 years. Some refinements in tools and clothing over the time period, but the tools from 8,000 years ago aren’t a whole lot different from the 3000 year old ones.
Though its no longer in the living memory of the locals how they lived prior to colonization starting witht he Ruskie back around the time of Peter the Great, its still pretty well remembered by stories passed down over the last 300 years. Its not a lot different from knowing how people lived in the time of Christ via the stories in the Bible, just the time period over which those stories have been carried is shorter, so probably even more accurate overall.
Anyhow, here are a few facts which are incontravertable.
1) The area was first colonized roughly 13,000 years ago.
2) It maintained a relatively Steady State population of around 50,000 across most of the southern part of the state from around 10,000 years ago until the arrival of the Europeans (Ruskies first)
3) The nature of the Gift Economy is well known, they did not use money of any sort, and therefore it was quite impossible to have either Rich People or Poor People. The total “Wealth” of a Tribe might be measured by how much they might harvest from the sea or land in a given year, but there would be no way to measure the wealth of an individual in such an organization.
From your point of view as you have so far described it, such an organization is “impossible” because of the “nature of man” to be greedy and oppressive of others. However, clearly these folks were neither. In fact because they were neither, it was very easy for the Europeans to take advantage of them and kill them off. They simply were too trusting at the beginning. Their culture was BUILT on that.
It lasted a damn long time, a whole lot longer than the Capitalist model has lasted, that is for sure. You postulate its “impossible” to Reverse Enginer our way back to that; I postulate that its not only possible, its likely. You cannot “Prove” your postulate any more than I can prove mine, we can just bat the ball back and forth citing evidence we think supports our respective positions. You base your ideas on the history of Judeo-Christian Ag Societies from about 5000 years ago to present. I base my ideas on the surviving Hunter Gatherer cultures that still were extant until the early 1800s, for the most part.
That these cultures were decimated and overcome by the Guns, Germs and Steel of developing Industrial Society cannot be argued. Nor however can it be argued that once the Oil and Coal is gone, unless we miraculously replace these energy sources we are going to head right back toward that way of life.
Neither of us will be alive to see this of course, and since you don’t believe in a Heaven or Hell, your Spirit will not survive past the death of your body to see it from the Great Beyond. I do believe in a Heaven and Hell, and my Spirit WILL witness it all as it comes to pass. Of course, I cant prove that one either, nor can either of us prove or disprove the Existence of God. You either believe or you do not. You do not, I do. End of story.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 1:28 am
Reverse Engineer says:
“Stuck – if we had used the tag-team attack on RE when he put up his first post, perhaps the end result would have been different.”-LLPOH
Yes indeed, it likely would have been different, and the thread would have devolved into the usual sort of Napalm that this board is famous for. I for one am glad Stuck and myslef have been able to go at this topic Mano a Mano, so far with virtually ZERO Napalm.
Ganging up and Tag Teaming, pitching back and forth ever spiralling insults and ad hom arguments with your ideological compadres is the bane of this board. It instigates a Group Think Psychology, where everybody knows if they don’t Toe the Line of the prevailing board wisom by the most vocal and vicious members, they better just keep their mouths shut.
I don’t let any of that shit bother me, and I am perfectly capable of going it alone against your Tag Team methodology, because frankly I can write more than any 10 of you guys put together, and that is just with one hand on the Keyboard, and the other one holding a bottle of Sam Adams. LOL. “No brag, just fact”, as Will Sonnett put it.
The end result is I do get my message out, and I do find my readership in folks like OS and ER, and eventually I hope to empower them to write more, and be a little less fearful of the kind of trash that passes for debate on this board usually.
In any event, for whatever reason, the Holy Spirit did fill Stuck here for a few posts, and we had a very worthwhile debate, which may even continue further. Even if it does not though, its a good example of what can be accomplished if there is a little RESPECT on the board, and if you refrain from pitching endless napalm to devolve ut threads into nonsense and vitriole.
I have no illusions that this little missive will change the overall dynamic or stop the Trolls from Smoking threads, but I did want to point out that its not necessary, and it is counterproductive to using the forum to debate the ideas, and not the people who put them forth. I will argue clean with anyone who does the same, and occassionally I will even turn the other cheek to an insult, as I did with Stuck to get this exchange going.
Not usually though, and certainly not with trolls who I perceive as unsalvageable. In that case, its a Knife Fight, and there ARE NO RULES in a Knife Fight. So we play the game of who can conjure up the more creative insult. If that is what floats your boat, feel free to play the game with me. I got no LIMIT to what I can write in response, truly I do not. Its your choice. A productive discussion is a much better use of all our time spent here, writers and readers alike. I can only hope that the trolls will grasp this and give up the napalm. Until that happens though, I am ready to respond in kind, always.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 4:07 am
Opinionated Bloviator says:
RE, I win my knife fights by bringing a gun and using it. Having said that any monkey can fling it’s poo at things it does not like. Critical thought is like common sense, it is so rare, when it appears everyone notices and comments on it.
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4th December 2010 at 6:42 am
StuckInNJ says:
Two excellent posts RE.
I appreciate the time you took to explain my question regarding “how do we know how they lived back then”. Interesting reading. I’ll check out the additional link you provided later this afternoon.
How about we come to some sort of a compromise?
Corporatism (not necessarily capitalism) has its weaknesses. As I see it, here is the worst aspect. It is completely “heartless” system.
There is no such thing as loyalty to an employee. Once you’ve outlived your “usefulness” you are discarded. And it doesn’t matter if you’ve been there one year, ten years, or thirty years. Employees are merely “things” to achieve a goal — profits. Some call it a form of slavery. While I think that’s extreme, I do see the similarities. It really doesn’t give a shit about Community — it cares only about its own survival, at any cost.
The society you describe certainly did not have to deal with such things. In that regard, it is “better”.
But please don’t tell me some Eskimo 5,000 years ago didn’t smash his neighbor’s head in with a whale bone because the neighbor boinked his wife. Please don’t tell me a hungry Intuit never stole a piece of seal blubber from his neighbor. Please don’t tell me they didn’t lie, become angry, express jealousy, or exhibit any of the other hundreds of human foibles we still have with us today. When I talk about the very nature of man, this is what I’m talking about — the micro level at individual human beings … which becomes a macro level, for what is society except a bunch of individual human beings?
Lastly, not believing in heaven or hell makes no difference in whether or not I go there when I die … (if these destinations are truly a reality). Here is an analogy. I’m standing on the ledge of the Empire State Building. I decide to jump. At that point it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference whether or not I “believe” in gravity. Gravity, because it is ultimately real, will do its job regardless of what I think about it. Same goes for heaven and/or hell.
Besides, in another post a little while ago you said there is still hope for me.
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4th December 2010 at 10:15 am
Reverse Engineer says:
I wouldn’t argue that human beings tend to have the same basic traits, although even Jealousy over your wife isn’t uniform through cultures. Its not a practice in every tribe, but believe it is the Inuit who make it a practice of sharing wives with visitors. This probably had the survival advantage of keeping the gene pool more mixed in a low population environment.
Anyhow, individual traits can be either rewarded or punished by the social organization, and herein lies the problem with Capitalism (I don’t make a distinction with “Corporatism”, because its always been Corporate, going back at least to the Dutch East India Company). Capitalism rewards and glorifies greed, and so the culture and the people in it are rewarded for their corruption. It is an enabler of moral sickness.
I wouldn’t argue that you can ever have a “perfect” society, but you can set up a society so that it is designed to reward the positive atributes that human beings have like generosity, caring, empathy and love of course. As a member of a very sick culture, you are inordinately focused on all the negative attributes of humanity, but you have to realize that so much of those behaviors are culturally reinforced.
Far as theories of heaven and hell, I’ll probably flesh this more out tonight. Right now I have work to do. Nice chatting normally with you though Stuck.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 1:44 pm
StuckInNJ says:
RE: “As a member of a very sick culture, you are inordinately focused on all the negative attributes of humanity”
SiNJ: That only because I read TBP. I used to be a lot more positive.
RE: “… it is the Inuit who make it a practice of sharing wives with visitors.”
SiNJ: Sign me up. Are they accepting immigrants?
RE: “Nice chatting normally with you though Stuck.
SiNJ: Same here!
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4th December 2010 at 1:53 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
RE: “… it is the Inuit who make it a practice of sharing wives with visitors.”
SiNJ: Sign me up. Are they accepting immigrants?
LOL. I should have said USED to make this a practice before we unfortunately came in and destroyed most of the culture. However, with luck, a few years after TSHTF, this will be one of the first cultural practices we reinstitute up here
RE
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4th December 2010 at 2:19 pm
llpoh says:
RE – you confuse quantity with quality. Many words you spew but few are reas, and fewer still make sense. Perhaps you should read some Hemingway to get a feel for less is more.
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4th December 2010 at 3:42 pm
Smokey says:
LLPOH—–DAMN few are read.
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4th December 2010 at 3:56 pm
llpoh says:
Smokey – thanks for translating! Buttons are small on this damn thing.
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4th December 2010 at 4:03 pm
Punk in Drublic says:
RE
I am happy to run blocker on some of your threads, if it will get more people to post comments. LLPOH is compelled to scorch me when ever he can, I think I could keep him chasing his own tail for a little while. I KNOW I can keep Smokey flustered and fuming for as long as I like. Depending on the time of day, if I’m around, I’ll put a big red target on my ass and start blowing kisses. Seriously though, If SSS shows up, I’m gone.
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4th December 2010 at 4:21 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
Thanks for the offer Punk. As you can see, the Mosquitos are Buzzing around the thread now, since anytime a decent conversation gets going they find it necessary to suck the blood out of it. I kind of feel sorry for them, its all they really know how to do, and the only thing that keeps them entertained in their declining years. Its sad really.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 5:01 pm
llpoh says:
I love the smell of scorched Punk in the morning. The number of times you’ve run yelping to mama with your tail between your legs hasn’t taught you a thing, has it, Punk. SSS wouldn’t waste his time on you. Smokey and I do it to keep in practice for when big game season opens.
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4th December 2010 at 5:04 pm
Punk in Drublic says:
LLPOH
“Smokey and I do it to keep in practice for when big game season opens.”
Yeah, that’s the idea, I know. But 3200 users loaded onto the new site and how often do you see any big game? Not very often, I’d wager. I don’t even see Cynical 30 around very often. Good luck with that opening day…
BTW, I don’t recall ever running away, so you can put that delusion out of your mind, along with the thought of sniffing Cynical 30′s panties.
RE
I am a big believer in the downsizing and localization of society in response to peak oil, 2 years back I thought we would be at Mad Max already. I learned a lot since then, enough to believe that it is not a certainty. I quite like the stuff you write is that arena, I am thinking life ala 1900, instead of 1850s, but I am with you on the use of sails, coming back in a big way.
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4th December 2010 at 6:00 pm
Kill Bill says:
Far as theories of heaven and hell…-=RE=-
Early Christians taught no such thing as hell. It goes against the idea that there is more than one God and therefore cannot be theonomy but paganistic if there is an equally omnipotent entity equal to God.
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4th December 2010 at 6:24 pm
Kill Bill says:
When Pat Robertson, for one, talks about the Devil causing earthquakes and so forth and blaming it on people I have to laugh. Thats Paganism.
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4th December 2010 at 6:39 pm
Punk in Drublic says:
Kill Bill
The history of religion is fun, Have you ever seen the movie Zeitgeist? Fucking cool.
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4th December 2010 at 6:50 pm
Smokey says:
There is no devil and no hell. Pat Robertson is a dupe. God transcends all religions.
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4th December 2010 at 7:05 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
“Early Christians taught no such thing as hell. It goes against the idea that there is more than one God and therefore cannot be theonomy but paganistic if there is an equally omnipotent entity equal to God.”
I don’t particularly concern myself with how Early Christians interpreted Hell. Or what the later ones think either really. My concept comes out of my Spirit Equation, S=G/E. I see the Universe as in a binary state, with polar forces of Good and Evil, Gravity and Energy, Light and Darkness all being manifestations of the same phenomenon. So my concept of the Afterlife follows from that. I’ll have some more time to write tonight on the topic if I don’t get busy with something else.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 8:12 pm
LLPOH says:
RE says: “I’ll have some more time to write tonight on the topic if I don’t get busy with something else”. It’s threats, always threats with you.
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4th December 2010 at 8:15 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
I don’t really want to flip this thread into a metaphysical discussion of religious concepts of existence, the real core of the thread is about the practical dynamics of how poverty has been dealt with in the Ag and Industrial paradigms, and I would like to see that discussion pursued by anyone who is interested in such concepts. Neither however do I want to initiate a new thread based on metaphysical concepts of existence, because this board really isn’t suited for that. You would need a board that was more clearly divided into topical areas than a linear blog like this one.
I’ll actually use this as an opportunity though to express my overall dissatisfaction with this type of forum, posts simply drop off the Map of discussion too quickly. The only posts that get any extended debate are the Feature Posts, all the rest of them get MAYBE 2-3 days of debate where they are linked on the Homepage before they disappear into the archives. Jim, I really think you need to look for a better type of forum software if you want to make The Burning Platform more than just your own personal Blog.
Anyhow, I will try to straddle the line here an write a short (for me) post to answer Stuck’s metaphysical point that his belief would not make a difference in the existence of Hell. I’ll refresh Stuck’s analogy here:
“Lastly, not believing in heaven or hell makes no difference in whether or not I go there when I die … (if these destinations are truly a reality). Here is an analogy. I’m standing on the ledge of the Empire State Building. I decide to jump. At that point it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference whether or not I “believe” in gravity. Gravity, because it is ultimately real, will do its job regardless of what I think about it. Same goes for heaven and/or hell.”
OK, let’s start from the Beginning. I mean REALLY the beginning, of “Existence” as we know it, which would be the beginning of this Universe. Now, it really doesn’t matter here whether you accept the Big Bang Theory or the Biblical Story of Creation, somehow here you got Something from Nothing. At least as perceived from this reference point. It did not exist before it was created or came to be, now it does exist. This is Binary. There is no in between Existence and non-Existence, you either Exist or you do not. Much as there is no in-between of Light and Darkness. It does not matter how dim the light might be, once there is any light whatsoever, the binary between Light and Darkness is breached.
The Universe itself battles between two combative states, Gravity and Energy. You can see this in the Stars. It is Gravity that pulls together the Hydrogen Nuclei to fuse to Helium, the Energy released is sufficient to keep the gravity from sucking it all together, as long as the Star remains in Balance. This is a Binary system. When the Energy falls too low, the Star will collapse on itself, in a variety of different ways depending on its mass, but it still does collapse.
Glossing over a whole big portion here of analysis, when you look at life that evolved out of this binary equation of Existence-Non-Existence, you get all sorts of new Binaries. The main one for sexually reproducing life forms during their corporeal existence is the Male-Female binary. The one that concerns us here is the Life-Death Binary. No middle ground between Life and Death of course, you are either Alive or you are Dead, at least so far no real “Zombies” walk the Earth. LOL. So what happens to “you”, the Human Soul when you cross the binary between Life and Death? Based on the observable fact that all the rest of Existence is Binary, it only makes sense that once you cross that boundary, there is ANOTHER Binary. The Binary states are infinite here.
Its impossible to really know the nature of the Binary that a Soul might experience when crossing the boundary between Life and Death, but you can make some guesses about its nature absed on the Binaries you face through life, which for the most part is the choice you have between Good and Evil. This is a very difficult Binary, because of course what seems Good to one person can be Evil to another. However, just as Gravity and Energy are absolutes, so also are Good and Evil, and its mainly a matter of becoming Tuned to which is which over the course of your life. This would be the “Free Will” that God gives us all.
If you don’t grasp this before you die, IMHO you are Lost Soul, you won’t pass into the Great Beyond with your consciousness intact. So it does matter whether you believe or do not believe, another Binary. However, whether or not your “self” remains intact, Stuck is correct in saying that if a Binary like Heaven and Hell exist, whether or not you believe then you are going one way or the other, there is no “Middle Ground” there either, no more than there is a middle ground between Light and Darkness. In any event, unless you really do BELIEVE that there is a Binary you will be faced with, there is no CHANCE at all that you come out on the Good side of the Binary. For that to happen, you have to have made the right choice at the moment of crossing into the Great Beyond, at a minimum. However, IMHO simply being repentant at that moment would not be sufficient, I think your soul accumulates choices over time and it’s the BALANCE of those choices that resolves the Binary when you cross over.
To now ground all that metaphysical speculation into practical terms, what it means for members of this board is that if you are a believer in Capitalism, you are Damned to Hell, if you are a Tribalist, you will join the Council Fire of Our People, and go to Eternal Glory in the Kingdom of Heaven.
That is the SHORT version. LOL.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 3:52 am
llpoh says:
RE – you have got to be kidding. Do you think this shit up all by yourself or do you have some sort of extraterrestrial guru to help you out?
You could give L Ron a run for his money in the wacko races. No kidding – get some help.
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4th December 2010 at 6:38 am
Reverse Engineer says:
L Ron Hubbard is Amateur Hour.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 5:09 pm
StuckInNJ says:
RE — agree that this blog format is not nearly as good as the old Raging Debate.
Perhaps Jim can purchase a copy, or lease it, or some other arrangement. Jason would probably be delighted if he got even $100. After all, the site is dead … dead … DEAD!! Lucky to have 10 new responses to ANYTHING per WEEK. I posted a thread about women needing to wash their vaginas — kinda funny — got 9 replies in one month. lol By the way, it’s the same for the entire site .. regardless who posts what topic. Pathetic. Really.
Anyway, RE, you are correct. You discourse on Binary systems is not well suited right here, right now.
All I can say is I am well aware of the difference between Good and Evil. I even agree there are absolutes regarding the same. Therefore, I’m IN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, I wonder about infants and youngsters in your system. I also wonder about the mentally ill or incapacitated such as Downs Syndrome people. Specifically, children are too young to understand the “Binary” thingee, and the mentally ill simply can not. So, I guess they are doomed to hell … or no afterlife wherever — for reasons beyond their ability? Doesn’t seem right to me.
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4th December 2010 at 5:35 pm
Reverse Engineer says:
Its not the end of the binaries when you cross over, its another branching series. So, just like your average shoplifter wouldn’t end as deep into the depths of Hel as Lloyd Blankfein, similarly children and mentally handicapped would not be so judged either. I imagine its possible also one of the binaries might be to recycle a given soul for aother go round.
Who Judges it All and holds the Key to the Switch at every Gate? God, of course.
RE
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4th December 2010 at 8:12 pm