Some time ago I mentioned conversation with my tax attorney friend. He has been telling me stories from his regular meetings with fellow tax attorneys. The stories are both interesting and disturbing. My friend and his associates represent a very wide range of clients – multinationals, small and medium businesses, and individuals who are modestly wealthy to super wealthy. Following are some of things that he is finding, and what the attorneys are saying and hearing:
He says that every attorney he knows is being inundated with requests for help protecting, and liquidating, individual’s assets. Extremely high numbers of small and medium business owners are looking to sell up, or to simply walk away from their businesses, and to shelter assets from tax. The requests for assistance are far greater than ever before seen or known. Obamacare, tax on investment income, escalating red tape, etc. are given as reasons. People want to protect what they have spent their lives earning, and no longer see the risk being worth the reward. He says the amount of capital being pulled out of the economy is astonishing.
He indicates that larger businesses – multinationals and larger nationals – are seeking advice on how to relocate entirely overseas. In other words, they are seeking to no longer be incorporated in the US, and seek to move their companies entirely off-shore. He indicates that this is largely in response to the US having the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and that they feel that they are being unfairly targeted in the media and by the government for failing to pay their “fair share”, and they believe that their tax is going to skyrocket, and that they will become uncompetitive as a result. Their response is to seek to take their businesses elsewhere.
He says that there is currently an attack by the IRS on expatriates (the US is effectively the only country on earth that requires its citizens to pay tax on world-wide income. A person can live for decades overseas, have no US income whatsoever, and will still be liable for US tax). There are around 6 million US expatriates living overseas. They fall into two categories in general – reasonably affluent professionals and such working overseas, and retirees living in low cost of living places. He says that the IRS sees them as a source of revenue, and believes they are being targeted as they effectively have no representation. The targeting takes the form of tax reporting. The number of tax forms required of overseas Americans is extraordinary, and invasive. Bank accounts must be reported (if you sign checks for a company, those must be reported – bank account number, value, etc.), all assets must be reported, financial reports of companies you work for must be reported if you own 10% of shares in the company, trusts must be reported, gifts from foreign “entities must be reported, investments in mutual funds must be reported, retirement account info must be reported. If you are a businessman with interests in a business overseas, the reporting requirements require hundreds of hours of work per year. And an individual is not capable of doing it him or herself, and must get professional help. My friend says that the reporting requirements are so difficult that NO ONE can meet the burden without making mistakes, and making mistakes can be a criminal offense or subject the person to draconian civil penalty.
My friend says that the reason that these reports are being required is to 1) confiscate assets of expats living overseas, and 2) to force the expats to return to the US, and to bring their assets with them. The general belief is that the expatriates are seen as having escaped the clutches of the taxman, and that a concerted effort is being made to draw them back into the system.
My friend says that the attorneys are advising their clients that the must consider that all forms of communication are being intercepted and listened into – phone, email, text, anything. He says that the attorneys are advising that only face to face communication can be considered to be confidential, and that they should behave accordingly. He said that especially applies to overseas communications. He also indicates that the general belief is that every electronic communication must be considered to be being copied and saved by the US government, and that as computer systems improve that every communication a person makes will be instantly available for scrutiny by the government, and that he does not believe that privilege can be counted on to apply to communications made via technology. That is astonishing.
All in all, tax attorneys are seeing what everyone on TBP is seeing – the system is in collapse, freedoms are being ripped from the people, and that responsible, productive people are scrambling to protect what they have earned as they believe that a massive confiscatory movement is underway, and if they do not act soon, their assets will be taken from them, and business is jumping ship at increased pace as they believe they are being targeted.
I doubt this surprises many. Prepare accordingly is my best advice.
@llpoh: First off, as I asked in another thread, how long are you going to hang around to get screwed?
I was an expat – mostly overseas Europe, Africa, Caribbean, SA, Pacific Rim for 40 years of my career. Back then we had a generous tax break (taken away one time in the late 70’s and then put back down when the multinationals lost a hoard of Engineers and Technical people and insisted it be put back in). So I essentially spent 40 years of tax avoidance with the blessings of the IRS. The first 30 years, one had to stay out for 18 months with very limited visit time in the US (which didn’t bother us at all).. Now I understand it’s a year and I don’t know what the “in country” time is to disqualify you from the tax break.
I suspect they will just scrap it again and there will be no skilled people willing to move overseas except like I did in the late 70’s when they took the tax break away. I just wrote my own contract to include a 6 month review of exchange rates between the British pound and the US$ and adjusted a $200/day per diem up or down appropriately. As the dollar was going in the tank, my per diem (still untaxed at the time) grew nicely with time with the fiscal idiocy then going on before Volcker bulldozed the economy back where it should have been.. Never missed a lick. Paid income tax on the paycheck, paid nothing on the per diem which much more covered the difference.
It just depends on how bad someone wants you somewhere..
Like I asked? What’s you timing looking like these day for a bug out? Don’t overstay your welcome as you’ll get mashed.
MA
Sounds like things are a bit different now. I understand the overseas tax break is up to $80k (insufficient but still helps) but if the reporting requirements are as you say, the marginal use of the tax break takes a hit.
Damn WP. I love how it breaks up your post arbitrarily!
MA
Great look into the gears and cogs of business accounting. So TBPers are not alone thinking that the wheels are coming off the bus, eh?
Muck – I responded a bit to your question elsewhere. Basically I am well into my get the hell out of dodge plans. Within next couple of years I expect to be living as a country gentleman, self-sufficient and as secure as possible given the state of the world. Re your experiences, I suspect that it is going to be very difficult for Americans to relocate overseas going forward. Slaves must remain slaves.
AKA – a geat many folks are seeing the wheels come off. Tax attorneys are on a great run at the moment. When there are losers, some still manage to win.
Unfortunately for .gov, things are not going as swimmingly as they might like on the FATCA front. Although they’ve paraded a PR group of representatives across the world to help sell foreign banks on reporting Americans with accounts, very little cooperation has been forthcoming. Part of the problem is that FATCA offers those countries nothing in the way of reciprocity. No inclusion of the US handing over foreign holders of US bank accounts to their respective tax authorities. Nothing. So this has made a lot of potential inductees rather unhappy and unwilling to sign.
I’m no expert, but I think FATCA so far has only managed to sign agreements with a couple of European countries and the first to cave, Panama. And didn’t the Swiss just reject a account reporting law proposed between Switzerland and the US?
I have seen a list of the countries on the FATCA mission, there were about 50 countries targeted, predominately Europe and some other popular expat destinations. As I recall there were only three south American countries Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. Can’t see them getting a whole lot of cooperation there….
But of course I agree completely with your article, and yes plans are being made by many. Just yesterday a hopeful expat who has been applying for a residency visa in south America announced his visa victory to us his waiting audience and cheers went up from everyone. There are more in the pipeline.
It is also worth noting that several countries have recently tightened up their income/investment requirements for residency visas, Mexico being the most notable for Americans. As of last November a new law to qualify for a residency permit raised the income requirement to $1,950 PER PERSON, or I believe an ‘investment’ amount of $195,000. So that pretty much scratches Mexico as a cheap retirement destination, and I’ve seen some pretty unhappy people who had planned to retire down there just get their dreams squashed.
But with 7 billion people on the planet and resources diminishing, and the 1% sucking up ever more of everything, it’s going to get worse.
Run Forrest, run.
anonymous – nice comments. I would point out it is not just the 1% sucking up more of everything – the US sucks up around 20 or 25% of everything (5% of world’s population). Europe makes a pretty big sucking noise as well. Just read where the US trade deficit was $80 billin last mont, the biggest ever. That is a huge sucking up of resources by the people of the US.
Gonna be a wild ride. Hope that coaster has some kind of brakes or the impact will be horrific.
You’ve never said anything so nice to me before (can it last?)
I was certainly in the dog house around here yesterday.
That was my post. Forgot to sign it.
The USA is like a great, old oak tree.
It is huge, with a 6′ diameter trunk. It’s branches reach seemingly impossible distances from side-to-side, and it has been there for two centuries plus so it seems immortal.
It is also completely hollowed out by vermin, insects, and the kind of boring creatures that thrive only in the dark (darkness here = secrecy for the analogy-challenged).
The spending curve of the clowns running the US government is on an exponential run. QE was an endgame desperation, the only way to keep the lights on during the beginning of the vertical rise of the exponential curve.
The USA has aircraft carriers, F-35 airplanes, nuclear attack and ballistic missile subs, germ warfare, a huge standing military and an even more monstrous civilian infrastructure (the MIC) to “service” it. The .mil even has embedded camp followers and whores (why have bases surrounded by bordellos when you can just put the chicks in uniform and then into the barracks across the base?)
What the USA lacks is heart. It is stuffed full of mythology, like that of “American Exceptionalism,” but few people seem to know right from wrong anymore. Large numbers of Americans are “A-OK” with torturing people, torturing their children, slaughtering families from the air, or whatever American rulers deem “necessary.” People are delusional, at least as delusional as nationalists under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or any other mass-murderous demon-in-human-form.
The IRS’ activities are another desperation ploy.
Soon there will REALLY be an all-out assault on whatever .gov bureaucrats think is not nailed down. When the borrowing window is SLAMMED on Uncle Sam’s fingers, do you think the criminals in CONgress will just stop spending? HAH!
The question is, today America’s Middle Class is consenting to this all, uneasily, because they’ve got something to lose if the system breaks. If the system breaks anyway, and all those people lose what they have, their consent for this bullshit will evaporate.
That’s what our rulers fear. Without consent, they have no power. They’re then reduced to nothing more than a bunch of lunatic-asylum Napoleons trying to boss people around.
And no one will listen.
Also,
This sounds like Capital is going into hiding.
This is EXACTLY what occurred in the 1930’s as a result of FDR’s “Brain Trust’s” policies.
Robert Higgs has written extensively about this. He terms it “regime uncertainty” and obviously people with capital will more happily sit on it under the mattress than put it to risk in an environment where government edicts are arbitrary and adversarial.
Arbitrary and adversarial surely describe our current ruling paradigm.
Damn, marissa, that was tricky of you! Lured me right in!
What can I say, that was a very reasonable, well thought out comment. I am first to admit that sometimes reputations result in automatic dismissal or agreement with what is said in these parts. You make a good point – I should probably spend more time responding to the comment rather than the commentor.
But what would be the fun in that!
And truth be known, I do not remember exactly why we have gone at it hammer and tong in the past. Probably just to keep the monkeys entertained.
Same goes for you SAH – I really do not remember the specifics of our spats, and I have found your recent comments very good. Don’t let it go to your head, tho.
Calamity – you are still a moron. I do remember why I think that.
I just read a tremendous quote elsewhere. It is this:
“the core value of US citizenship is taxation”.
Damn, but that is an astute observation.
“He indicates that this is largely in response to the US having the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and that they feel that they are being unfairly targeted in the media and by the government for failing to pay their “fair share”
I must be missing something: http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/08/12/us-usa-taxes-corporations-idUSN1249465620080812
Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales. . . Dorgan in a statement called the report “a shocking indictment of the current tax system.” Levin said it made clear that “too many corporations are using tax trickery to send their profits overseas and avoid paying their fair share in the United States.”
http://www.progress.org/2011/dodgers.htm
The most consistently profitable companies in the Fortune 500 only pay about half the statutory federal income tax rate — a fourth pay less than 10%. Some even get refunds from Uncle Sam — 30 companies have enjoyed a negative income tax rate the past three years despite making $160 billion in pre-tax profits.
KaD – do not believe everything you read in the media.
Generally, what happens is something like this. A company makes $1 million income on US sales/production, and $2 million income on overseas sales/production. So they make $3 million total, which is duly reported on their financial reports. They pay tax on the one million made in the US at say 30%, so they pay $300k on income of $3 million, which the media then grabs hold of and screams that the corps are only paying 10% tax on their income ($300k/$3 million).
It conveniently ignores that $2 million was made overseas, and makes the suggestion that corps should pay US income on their WORLDWIDE income (the same way individuals are expected to do). The corps simply are not going to do that. And they are desperately afraid that the US is going to start making them pay US taxes on their world-wide income. So they are making plans to move offshore entirely.
Yes, there are many means that companies use to minimize tax. But the fact is, US corp tax rates are the highest in the world. The media is confusing things by rtying to make the case that US registered corps should be paying US tax on world-wide income. I repeat – that is not going to fly, as no other country in the world so requires.
(save for that economic powerhouse Eritrea).
Lol, the wealth will leave, the only thing left to tax will be debt! Suppose they will try to tax the China mans debt,lol wonder how that will work out. We shut our business down, its not just regulations, taxes, confusion. We could find very few dependable employees. Most steal or are lazy. Yep collapse is very near. Morals, right wrong no one has a guideline any more. The state cannot not furnish that guideline anymore. Suppose the founding fathers were onto something using the Christian moral princibles as a guideline. Not perfect, but worked pretty well. God bless and good
Luck. As always have a wonderfulllllll day.
KaD – the link you posted said this: The GAO said corporations escaped paying federal income taxes for a variety of reasons including operating losses, tax credits and an ability to use transactions within the company to shift income to low tax countries.
They shift income to low tax countries a variety of ways, but primarily by selling and manufacturing goods overseas, and also via transfer of assets and issues. Fact is, most of the income shifted overseas actually is made overseas. What they want is what I have said – for US based corps to pay taxes on their world-wide income. And again I say it ain’t gonna happen. They will leave the US if any such attempt is made.
llpoh says:
“I just read a tremendous quote elsewhere. It is this: “the core value of US citizenship is taxation”.”
Citizen’s resistance to legalizing aliens does not hurt them any since they were working anyway but they are not forced to pay taxes because of their underground status. Illegal residents enjoy an unfair advantage in that they are off the IRS radar. I know they are required by law to pay their taxes just as they should also have driver licenses but it pleases the voting public that they not get licenses because then they would have the same privileges citizens have; the privileges of being monitored, regulated, obligated, studied, tracked and taxed.
You beat me to to it KaD! There was some big internet company that not only paid $0 in taxes but they got $300,000,000 in refunds or some such bullshit this year. GE routinely pays no tax along with many others.
I_S
llpoh says:
“What they want is what I have said – for US based corps to pay taxes on their world-wide income. And again I say it ain’t gonna happen. They will leave the US if any such attempt is made.”
Bush II gave them a window to repatriate money at a low tax rate. But then, it was a window they required of him.
Where can I bring my guns?
Think I’ll stay here after murdered with dignity
After s/b and get
Drunk on a dumphone…..never works well
IS – damn it boy, didn’t you read my response? That stuff is largely horseshit. Calculating the percentage of tax paid based on US tax paid divided by world-wide income is horseshit. They need to calculate tax rate by dividing US taxes paid by US profits.
Yes, there are numerous rorts. But largely the game is as I say – they – the media – make these sweeping bullshit comments by comparing US taxes paid to total corp world income (ie profit). The GE thing is also not as chrystal clear as the media and the ADmin try to make it out to be. He hates those bastards at GE – for which I do not blame him.
One other thing they do is compare profits reported on Annual Reports to taxes paid. Profits on annual reports bear no relationship to profits reported on tax returns. Two entirely different accounting systems are used.
Protecting what you earned …………
…. isn’t that what some waitresses do?
I got your boy……. and yes I did read your response…….after I posted my comment. You may be right but I respectfully disagree. These companies spend tens of millions employing lobbyists to write favorable laws and loopholes in addition to the myriad tax incentives and tax credits they already receive. They may be acting within the law but that don’t make it right and I’ll garan-fucking-tee they don’t adhere to any oath like you the one you took at the USAFA.
I_S
What is that revolving door Jeffrey Imelt uses at the White House for?
I_S
Driving through town today I saw so many new real estate signs. Most of the commercial property is owned by small business people and small to medium investors. The asking prices I saw on many of these for sale signs are down 60%+ from what they were at the zenith of the real estate bubble. have noticed recently is the % of people I see smoking in my town. I was wondering how there was such as big increase in smokers – then it hit me, the better part of the middle class (aka non smokers) has left. I wonder where these people are going? They are the upper middle class of this small town, by no means 1%ers, but the people who are wealthy enough to invest into the local community. No doubt many are attempting to close shop, cash out whatever they can on their real assets in a bad market, and trust that they will live comfortably in Mexico, Belize, Costa Rica for the rest of their lives. There arent really businessses or industries here of the types that can be moved off shore, so I truly believe many locals are quitting completely and going to Latin America. It’s kind of frightening, actually. My town seems to be going through a mini Atlas Shruged. Soon there will only be FSA, Mexicans, druggies, and those of middle class who can’t afford to escape (some of us simply too young to have amassed significant wealth yet). So many empty buildings for sale and businesses shuttered. It’s ripe for a zombie apocalypse.
IS – corps spend untold amounts lobbying, and currying favor. Again I say if they try to tax corp world-wide income, the corps will flee. And much of the lobbying will cease, I expect, if that indeed happens.
And they for sure are amoral bastards. No disagreement here.
There is of course that little Constitutional thing granting right to petition (lobby). I personally think paid lobbyists and organizational lobbyists should be banned. Supreme Court has generally found against my position. An amendment is needed to get my wishes acted on, so that isnt happening.
I appreciate your skepticism. But please understand that if world wide income is taxed, corps are really going to leave en masse. They will not do that – they will all be under such tremendous competetive pressure they would be unlikely to survive if the do not flee.
Stuck – Corps do not generally falsify tax returns! They use legal means to hold onto their money. But you know that! Keep trying to push my buttons. I am a changed man – I am kind and gentle now.
SAH – your story matches the story of my friend. It is becoming an epidemic. .
SAH, not sure where in OR you are but I’ve noticed the same in Enterprise, OR. I visit there once or twice a year. Eight to ten years ago the place was booming and being transformed into an artsy-fartsy cultural mecca of Birkenstock wearin’, liberal do-gooders imposing their Utopia on a quiet, rural place. New paving, enhanced pedestrian surfaces along with new rules and regulations were being installed fast and furious. All the main street facades were spruced up. Fine wine and all manner of art abounded.
Now, buildings are vacant and falling into disrepair. The artsy-fartsy types are bailing out right and left. The changes are very evident when visiting every 4-6 months.
I_S
llpoh, I get the world wide income tax point and agree but there has got to be a more equitable solution found before shit can get better. Fat chance!
I agree wholeheartedly re lobbyists. IMO, anything other than individuals or individuals acting together and simultaneously lobbying, degrades the spirit of the law. Why the fuck do some assclowns have to take ten miles when given an inch?
I_S
welcome back llpoh,
and bravo dc sunsets.
Freedom…. “and its gone.”
Sorry, I missed putting on the disclaimer that the NSA was likely monitoring that last post (and every post on this thread). Tread carefully on the internet friends.
Greetings,
Whereas a multinational can hire an army of tax accountants, a small business where most of the jobs are created can not. It totally makes sense that small businesses would be trying to close up shop as that is the last refuge of money in the USA. The 1% can easily hide money. The middle class is 100% tapped out. The poor have nothing so the only thing left to rape are small businesses.
They know that the writing is on the wall.
LL, corps still need the US markets, so let them “flee”. We can and will rebuild after the crunch, as it’s referred to in JR Rawles books. I recommend the first one, Patriots. It’s a set of best practices for survivalism if you’re considering moving rural.
As for tax attorneys, they’re seeing the same things as the rest of us, we’re headed for a collapse of the dollar and the decline of the Empire.
Make no mistake who is the architect of the world system, the Devil. When you know who is the enemy, preparing to prepare is much more effective. It’s only by God’s word that we overcome the principalities and powers of this world. Of course, the 4 B’s, beans, bullets, bandages, and bullion shouldn’t be overlooked.
llpoh
Thank you for a valuable service in posting this. Heh, you would not hear it on MSM. Every clue helps.
Like Muck, I got into the legal tax avoidance scheme, as it was in 1969, when I signed the contract to go to Saudi Arabia. That was accomplished by signing an IRS form, informally referred to as the 510 day rule, I think. The first contract was for a year and then you were at the mercy of whatever the company offered you, else you went back stateside with a big tax owing. Fuck that.
Anyway, I stayed on. Having done the right thing, I was surprised on return to the U.S. to get a letter from the IRS demanding my back taxes. WTF? So I wrote on that, no reply. Several months later, another letter, and rinse and repeat. Later I was in Providence and got a phone call one day after a bad hair day at work … had just arrived home, wall phone rings, I’m standing right by it and answer.
Smarmy voice, “I want you in my office tomorrow with your checkbook.” WTF? Then the thug identifies himself. I told him to pull the file, the exemption form I signed and STFU. And a lot more besides. Did front up the next morning, he wasn’t there, called in sick. STM mode worked really well, I guess. Instead there was some obese black woman at his desk when I was shown in. Her first question was “Where’s your checkbook?” By the time I was finished with her, I rather imagine she went home sick.
A year later, right after arriving in Samoa, I had a letter from the IRS basically calling that 69-70 return a draw. American Samoa was administered by the Department of Interior (WTF?) so I naturally assumed I was liable for income tax and filed the then 1040 form which had a tick box which I understood had to do with ‘out of the continental U.S.’ but worked out i might get a small refund, only received an IRS check refunding the whole of the withholding. WTF? I opened another bank account, escrow type, waiting for the letter that said, We made a mistake. Or something.
When I left for Australia, I closed that account, took the money and run. Heh. Having followed the rules and potentially been butt-fucked that first time, doing the right thing the second time and no follow-up, I’d had enough of their stupidity.
I don’t know when the laws changed to expect U.S. citizens to file returns while living in Australia. And I don’t fucking care. Nor do I know when the ‘rule’ came that tips had to be reported.
Now — in KaD’s comment, two phrases stand out (the Levin comment) ” tax trickery ” and “paying their fair share”, classic progressive dive-and-conquer propaganda by language. Yeah, maybe I_S had a point about lobbying but everyone works the system. That is what is wrong: THE FUCKING SYSTEM. It was a lie from the beginning, just like the 1936 Social Security pamphlet that came later. The fucking government couldn’t lie straight in bed.
I remember when the WSJ used to publish a list of “millionaires that paid no tax”, shock, horror. All a game to rile up the sheep and meanwhile fuck individuals if the IRS can get away with it. The “will of the people” never asked for a direct income tax. The feeble-minded populists led by silver-voiced William Jennings Bryan thought it was a good idea to ‘soak the rich’, the robber barons (poor fools never realized those were just crony capitalists working hand in hand with government.
But they got their income tax, thanks to Wilson. That was sold to the ordinary working man as “You’ll never have to worry about it.” How’d that work out?
Those populists also got their “will of the people” direct election of senators, also signed off by Wilson. Add in his penmanship on the Federal Reserve Act, and a few other things, including his 1916 “he kept us out of war” campaign for re-election, even as he knew his advisor Col House was coming back with a secret treaty to get the U.S. into that quagmire “to make the world safe for democracy”. Right. And of course his legacy, the League of Nations. Never mind the Treaty of Versailles and what followed.
No, it could be America’s last really good year was 1912 and it’s been downhill ever since.
Today is just an extrapolation of all the devious schemes that came before. Your legal eagles are right, llpoh, bad shit coming, man.
Llpoh
If the government passed a law that required ALL your income to be taxed at 100% — would you still pay it? Remember, you took some oath in distant times past to be a good and obedient servant.
In other words, do you obey ALL laws, even the immoral ones? Or, has your oath kept you from critical thinking?
I think it’s clear you will not be part of any revolution …. at least most of those revolutions that require “laws” to be broken. Or, perhaps you think America can be changed by passing even more laws … good laws. Yeah, good luck with that.
Have you ever considered that you might be part sheep? Oba-a-a-ay the la-a-a-w. Baa-aa, baa-a.
@Novi: Hi friend… Good to see you up and around this late in the day!
When I made the conscious decision to move overseas to avoid taxes, I also start contributing to the old Libertarian gold-sheet. So thinks jelled for me about the same time it did for you..
If I had it to do over, I’d do the same thing work-wise. But at a younger age, I would have made the transition and would likely be your neighbor.
This time around, sadly, there will no place to hide and luck will largely determine outcome..
MA
Nice stuff Llpoh
It’s costs a helluva lot to redistribute money to 47% of the population, and spending $1 trillion per year on welfare, $340 billion on disability, and $440 billion for 30 million union drone government employee parasites.
The IRS has become the largest terrorist organization on the planet. They are going after that $18 trillion parked offshore, and they won’t stop until they get their hands on it. With all the spying and monitoring of electronic transactions, there’s no place to “hide” money anymore. Threats and intimidation by the U.S. government will result in no place to hide on the globe.
People are liquidating everything of value and getting out while they still can. Most people have already done this, as small businesses are at the lowest level in 20 years. Large businesses will continue to exercise tax shelters and other ways of avoiding taxes they got by spending millions lobbying the criminals in Washington.
I comes to down to one thing in the end: socialism, or communism, statism, whatever you want to call it. Once they run out of other people’s money to redistribute, they’re done. The tab gets bigger every year as more and more people get on the dole, and all the productive people close up shop and quit producing. Who can blame them when 1/2 of what they produce is being stolen by the government? And everything they do and say is regulated, recorded, and controlled by incompetent parasites in government.
The same exact thing happened in Rome. The productive class were squeezed and squeezed some more to pay for a welfare state of bread and circuses, and they finally just moved away and the whole thing collapsed. We’re collapsing now, slowly, but collapsing none the less. I applaud your efforts to get out and not feed the beast anymore.
Around here, they are bulldozing strip malls, the few remaining factories, houses, anything that taxes must be paid on. People would rather bulldoze their property than continue to pay exorbitant taxes. So it goes, we’re a debt hollowed out dead country. We can only hope for a speedy collapse. 8 years of Obama followed by Hillary Clinton should assure that will happen. So sad.
Stuck – hell no, I will not be part of any revolution. The people are getting what they want. What part of democratic republic do you not believe in? I believe the people have the right to make their own choices. What about you? You believe you have the right to inflict your position on the majority? What system of govt, if any, do you believe in?
Has it ever occurred to you that you may be a self- interested, unprincipled moron?
Re taxes, I will obey the law. Tax rate gets too high and I will stop earning, or flee.
Re obeying laws, pretty much yes I obey all laws at this point. If I break one it is accidental. Goes for traffic ones, too.
Thanks everyone for your input. Good stuff Novista.
And what laws are immoral to which you refer? I would likely not obey unconstitutional laws.
And re your sheepcomment, I have no doubt that I do as much as the next person trying to make things better. I know there are issues. I use my rights to try to change things. Again, how about you?
“Has it ever occurred to you that you may be a self- interested, unprincipled moron?”
aka Baby Boomer
AWD – probably right there. What stuns me is that generally bright people who know what the problems are believe that because there are problems it is ok to abandon the fundamental backbone of the country. That backbone is the system of democratic republic and the Constitution. I hope to see both work and live. Others think they have the right to over- rule the rights of the majority to self- govern. I cannot go there.
You posting great stuff.
Perhaps the time for representative democracy is over and it’s time for a Direct Democracy – something the internet makes possible.
I imagine the consumers may become citizens and begin to think about what the Nation “needs” instead of what the individuals “want”.
Can you imagine if the majority of Americans got online and voted an end to all the wars, voted an end to labor arbitrage with slave-owning counties, voted to make corporations non-people – the whole time understanding the short-term hard times on the citizens and the long-term hard times for the elite currently gaming the system via their “representatives”?
An idea.
“Has it ever occurred to you that you may be a self- interested, unprincipled moron?” —- AWD
Was that directed at me?
Don’t be a pussy. Tell the truth.
“Stuck – hell no, I will not be part of any revolution.” ——– llpoh
I guess we wouldn’t be celebrating what happened on July 4, 1776 if it were left to the likes of people like you? You chicken shit coward.
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“Re taxes, I will obey the law. Tax rate gets too high and I will stop earning, or flee” — llpoh
Great! If the going gets tough you won’t stick around to change things …. you’ll just “flee” like the sorry assed self-righteous pussy that you are.
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Are you really so goddamned stupid that you have to ask “what laws are immoral to which you refer”? If you have to ask, there is no hope for you. Go and continue to play in your little sandbox … proud of the fact that you’ve kept your meaningless Oaths.
You who else kept the Law PERFECTLY? The Pharisees of Jesus’ time. Yessir. They knew every single one of hundreds of laws and knew how to keep them. In fact, they knew them so well they made a career of telling other people how to keep them (sound familiar?), punished them when they didn’t keep the law (sound familiar?), and felt oh-so-self-righteous about themselves (this should sound really familiar at this point!). You would think that the Son Of God would be thrilled at such righteous people, the Keepers of the Law. People like you. But, no!! He despised these people. They are the only group he actually cursed at …. vipers and snakes he called them, like a white-washed tomb all clean on the outside, but dead and corrupted inside. Sound familiar? If not, look in a mirror.
Just like old times. It warms the cockles of my heart to see llpoh and Stuck getting along so well.
Muck, hi friend!
The only thing I regret now about 1969-70 was not grabbing fistfuls of krugerrands and eagles, etc. but it was against the law. llpoh would have been proud of me.
In 1975, that restriction was lifted. Such is life.
Stucky says:
“They are the only group he actually cursed at …. vipers and snakes he called them,…”
stucky slips in a sermon. this is exactly why i kept reading TBP at first.
since stuck commented on my “hole in the heart” sarcasm, i will say that it was john who cursed at them, he called the pharisees a “generation of vipers”.
it may be that llpoh has yet to fall off his high horse but don’t forget that god chose paul because he was righteous and energetic to begin with.
FBS
“But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them …. O GENERATION OF VIPERS, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?”
———————– Matthew 12:24-34
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. ……….. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. ……… YE SERPENTS, YE GENERATION OF VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”
———————————— Matthew 23: 23-33