My father, now dead, a mathematician without the slightest leaning toward the esoteric, once told me of driving by night with a friend through the hill country of North Carolina. Suddenly a large truck, lights blazing, came over a crest, passed through their car without a sound, and disappeared in the night. My father said that after a moment he asked, “Did you see what I saw?” The friend answered “Yes.” They said no more about it, to each other or anyone else. They would have been thought mad.
Over the years I have talked to various people, apparently sane, who have had unexplainable experiences. Some of these had dreamed of the death of someone who shortly thereafter died in the circumstances of the dream. Others were more similar to my father’s experience. Several remembered a sudden and terrible sense of the presence of something evil — this latter now called a “panic attack,” which explains nothing. Those involved seldom wanted to talk of such things in a scientific age for fear of being ridiculed.
But, one might reasonably ask, what could science, or scientists, know of these things? They can be neither proved nor disproved, nor repeated for study. And of course a number of equally improvable exploitations are ready to hand: the narrator is lying, or suffered a momentary imbalance of this or that neurotransmitter in his brain, or transitory dementia, or the delayed result of the ingestion of hallucinogen, and anyway the whole idea is so silly that we needn’t talk about it. Geez, it’s the kind of thing they believed in the Dark Ages.
Maybe.
But maybe not. JBS Haldane, the noted biologist, reported that he once “went into his home and saw himself sitting in his own chair smoking his favorite pipe.” ‘Irregular’ was his characterization, and he attributed the event to “indigestion.” This of course was ridiculous. He reported that he sat on himself and either he or the apparition disappeared and life went on. (JBS: The Life and Work of J.B.S. Haldane, by Ronald Clark, p.111) The event predictably was ignored, including by Haldane, as being too far outside of the expected.
In religious societies, such events, real or imagined, were easily explained. Apollo did it, or Yahweh, or angels perhaps, or poltergeists. Nature was thought to be in the hands of sentient beings more or less like humans. It was reasonable to think that they might throw lightning bolts or do all manner of unnatural things. Now we know, or think we do, that nothing can happen except in obedience to the laws of physics. This means that if something does, we will dismiss it.
The second paradox is that of morality. It is clear that a physical system, the only kind we believe to exist, cannot be either moral or immoral. A fire does not burn up a kindergarten full of children from malignity. It burns as it has to. And since we are physical systems as much as the fire is, we are no more moral or immoral than it is.
Evolutionary psychologists argue persuasively that no absolute moral standards exist. They have to insist on this as otherwise there would be something outside of physics and that would upset the whole apple cart.
And so they point to the relative nature of morality. In one decade, short skirts are thought immoral, in another perfectly acceptable; in the Old Testament, stoning adulterers to death was not just moral but a duty; today, no. Bombing cities is immoral when Germans do it to England, but moral when England does it to Germany. In many cultures, horrific torture has been normal, in others a cause for revulsion. What we call morality is only a set of evolutionary adaptations to facilitate the passing on of our genes (as indeed short skirts might).
The problem here is that evolutionary psychologists, decent people, do not believe what they profess. If I stoned a homosexual to death, as at times in the past has been thought proper, they would be horrified. I could reply, “Why? Your moral objection is merely a prejudice local to this time and place and has no absolute validity. In evolutionary terms the resources consumed by gays would be better spent on having children and passing our society’s genes.”
Here it is worth noting that evolution is a subset of physics. How is it not? DNA follows the laws of chemistry — that is, physics. Mutations caused by cosmic rays or anything else comport with physics. Nothing that occurs within or without an organism undergoing natural selection contravenes physics — as if it did, we would be back to the paranormal.
Finally, there is the question of death. This is very carefully ignored in the sciences. Biology treats death as merely the cessation of certain reactions. But biologists also die. Do we really believe that nothing comes after death? How do we know? If we admit that we do not know, then there is the possibility of all manner of things in heaven and earth beyond our ken and of uncertain effect on our world. Scientists will pooh-pooh this (all the way to the grave ….)
Perhaps existence is not the simple wind-up clock we tell ourselves it is.
Yep.
Morality: a little correction Fred:
“Bombing cities is immoral when Germans do it to England, but moral when England does it to Germany. ”
Wrong – Do I really have to explain the OBVIOUS.
If someone kills a member of your family, do you just sit back and wait for the next member of your family to be killed; and the next, and next, etc..
Or, do you take action.
Once, while driving my 68 GTO on a wet road, I spun out and was headed directly for a telephone pole with a support cable, bright flash of blue light. When I finally stopped not a scratch on the car or pole. Only thing was the engine had a serious knock (spun a rod bearing)
And Kukoda, when you explain to me how an analogy of personal crime applies to populations, many of the members of which have not One Damn Thing to do with the public policies of their rulers, then I’ll understand your point.
Not everyone believes existence is a simple wind-up clock. It isn’t, as those who study quantum physics find themselves forced to admit.
Trained in math/science and doubted God’s existence by blind faith until three events. I lost both engines on takeoff and was about to crash when a voice clearly told me what was wrong. I fell off a roof and a gentile breeze lifted me and stood me in the middle of the roof. St Michael woke me up about 2AM and told me God was angry I had murdered my own daughter (wife had an IUD). The Supernatural Christian God is very real. Please watch Youtube “#1 Best Videos of Encounters with Jesus, Holy Spirit and Healing, Heaven & End Times”. Vaya con Dios.
No one knows the answers.
Some questions cannot even BE answered. So why bother asking them?
What if there’s life after death for me, but not for anyone else who came before or since? What if my experience of this reality is entirely a construct of my mind, and in fact I’m actually the Great Creator slumming it as one of its creations?
I know, I know, some people who lived a long time ago wrote it all down. Of course, in some cases we know that the original stories were part of an ORAL TRADITION. You know, like the game of telephone where one person tells the next person a story, and that person tells the next and so on.
What’s the story like after a few iterations?
And what of the monks transcribing the earlier written versions of the story? Did we notice that some things were added along the way, things that DID NOT APPEAR in earlier written versions?
Like I said, no one knows. We can’t agree on who killed Kennedy, but events carried by oral tradition, and then by flaky transcriptionists working over the centuries under the “guidance” of interested parties, events that took place centuries and literally millennia in the past….
This is the Known.
Like I said, the answers can’t be known, so why bother asking the questions? If you want to beleive, *believe.* Just stay the hell off my lawn.
That said, I still believe (there’s that B word) that unless there is a religious revival in the West that develops not as PART of the political authority but actually in opposition to it, Western Civilization is over.
What made the West what it is was a bipolar system of authority, where religious authority vied for the hearts and minds of men against political authority.
The reason the Far East never developed science, for instance, and the reason China does not rule the world despite being civilized longer than any part of the globe, is because they lived under a unipolar system. Belief and political authority were (and remain) one.
What the world needs now is Christianity to cast off its obsession with using politics to “make men better.” At least at the moment, I’m not seeing this as likely, and I don’t see another religion, in opposition to the state, emerging in its place.
Quantum physics, If I’m informed correctly, has the whole Schroedinger’s Cat thing against it.
Anyone who thinks that a phenomenon exists in a state that could be one way or another, depending on the observer to establish which it is, is a moron.
No system can logically depend on an observer for definition. This is a logical absurdity, and anyone who posits such, no matter if every other man on the planet agrees with him, is a fool. He’s just a fool with lots of company.
Whenever your hypothesis is supported only by an appeal to unreason, your hypothesis is wrong. It doesn’t matter if you lack another. Knowing what is wrong is often as useful as knowing what is correct.
@d.c. You have been misinformed.
dc
No system can exist without an observer.
And that observer has to be in a higher plane of existence to observe it but because it is in a higher plane cannot be observed by it.
Consider that an earthworm cannot consider anything higher than itself in consciousness, but does that mean that you do not exist because it cannot comprehend you? Or even observe you for that matter?
d.c. —- There really is no difference. If one country starts bombing and killing your citizens, the leadership of your country SHOULD take action to prevent/minimize future citizen deaths by taking out the aircraft.
Seems you prefer to let the slaughter continue unabated.
Kokoda: Regarding the bombing of cities. Which aircraft is better suited to killing large number of civilians:
Heinkel 111
Boeing B17
In which year was the development of the respective aircraft commissioned?
The earthworm does not exist in an unknown state until I see it.
Does reality exist or not? Did the universe exist prior to the advent of life? (hint: you just said it didn’t.)
If you are a post-modernist, please leave me alone. I do not respond to people who are so deluded.
@kokoda, Then the next time I suspect there’s a murderer hiding in your neighborhood I will support the drop of a MkIV 500 lb bomb right in the center of it. Same deal. Too bad for your wife and kids being inside the 100% casualty blast radius.
Kokoda, you responded to “bombing cities.” Not take out aircraft.
Are you intentionally conflating what’s being discussed, or can’t you keep the discussion straight?
When I was in 12th grade I took my dad’s Bonneville out on Highway 287 late at night to see how fast it would go. The speedometer was BURIED at 120mph, when suddenly I hit a pothole. The front tire went flat and I lost control of the car. It spun around four times then hit the center divider which sent the car flying. I was airborne for about 300 feet and landed on railroad tracks, where the car stalled. Just that moment a freight train came barreling down the tracks doing 80mph, and hit me head on. However, the train went right through the car like an airplane flying through fog. I was still 5 miles from home, and it was late at night, so I asked Jesus for help. He came right away with a new set of spark plugs and the the car miraculously stated right up. I drove the battered to hell car home, parked it in the driveway, and said some more prayers cuz I knew my dad would beat my skinny ass. However, when I woke up in the morning I went outside and the car was like brand new! Jesus and the apostles must have fixed it while I was sleeping. That noon, after I ate my liverwurst sandwich, I asked Jesus into my heart. He’s been fixing my cars ever since. Every bit of this story is true. This really works, people! Trust Jesus, there is no other way.
@Montefrio and all,
No, I’m not misinformed.
http://bookzek.com/3981-the-theory-of-elementary-waves-a-new-explanation.html
On the website above is a description of ANOTHER book that has in its description:
“Quantum theory is our deepest theory of the nature of matter. It is a theory that, notoriously, produces results which challenge the laws of classical logic and suggests that the physical world is illogical.”
I repeat: “challenge the laws of classical logic.” No, I’m not misinformed.
In the description of Little’s book is, “Explanations under quantum mechanics include a variety of contradictions. Most prominent is that elementary particles simultaneously exhibit the properties and behavior of particles and waves, a notion which produced the claim that a single particle—or at least it’s “potential”—can be in two places at once. The links in this chain of absurdity have led to bizarre extremes, such as the idea of backwards time, curved space and the comment from a well-known physicist that “the moon is demonstrably not there when nobody looks.””
Anyone who seriously suggests that reality is altered simply by observing it is so boneheadedly stupid that the English Language once again fails me in providing a colorful enough description.
Reality. IS.
Montefrio, allow me to offer my support, it was precisely the study of quantum physics that forced me to abandon the mechanistic view of reality that I’d held earlier.
dc.
Do you not understand that the observer that brings you into being cannot be on your plane but has to exist on a higher one?
As in God? You cannot directly comprehend him, but he can directly comprehend you.
BTW, you fail to understand Schrodinger’s cat, it is about your comprehension of the cat not about the cats self comprehension and actual existence outside of your perception because the ultimate observer, God, observes it.
@dc, why does a photon sometimes act as a particle and at other times acts as a wave? (re: double-slit experiment).
das….have no idea where you are going with your question, but in any event, it does not bear any relationship to the subject: Morality (defending oneself or your country).
dc. – here is the quote from the article that I place in my original post:
“Bombing cities is immoral when Germans do it to England, but moral when England does it to Germany. ”
The point is that it is immensely moral to defend oneself or your country. Bombing cities was achieved via aircraft (the Blitz). In order to defend oneself or the country, action SHOULD be taken to eliminate the cause of the bombing – which happens to be AIRCRAFT.
Seek the Dude. He understands.
Stuckey, you meant to ridicule Christians who you imply are phony by being even more phony and to some people you are being cute but you also ridiculed Jesus who is God’s Son who loves mankind and many of us owe our lives and souls to Him. Feel free to attack me like some very immature spoiled disrespectful kid but at least wise up enough to lay off the Lord of Lords who will judge your fitness to be escorted by angels to Heaven or be thrown by demons into Hell (which wouldn’t be funny or cute).
@dc: “Anyone who seriously suggests that reality is altered simply by observing it is so boneheadedly stupid”
Correct. What Quantum theory (theory – not gospel) say is that by measuring (by some means) the behavior – you alter the behavior.
Light is both a particle (photon) and a wave depending upon how you measure it.
Einstein didn’t really believe in Quantum Theory.
Niels Bohr model of the atom has stood the test of time. However physicists are at a loss to explain gravity, mass, and the ‘elementary particle’. Physics has turned into a philosophical profession. Nothing significant has been done since Special / General Relativity.
Einstein had a ‘reverse gravity’ term in the original General Relativity. Gravity is proportional to the sqare of the distance. The gravity a one foot is 1, at two feet is 1/4, at 3 feet 1/9.
Einstein theorized when the matter in the universe gets far enough apart it will trigger a gravitational force that pulls all matter back to the center – the collapse of the universe, into a singularity – and thus the big bang starts all over again.
I need to correct a Faux Pas (not a Freudian Slip). In the first line in my entry above, I wrote ” by being even more phony” when I meant “by being phony yourself”. May God and friends forgive my stupidity.
@dc Thanks for the book suggestion. I have two for you: first, Wholeness and the Implicate Order by David Bohm; second, Science and Civilization in China by Joseph Needham.
The Chinese had a number of significant scientific accomplishments and a variety of religious and civil theories.
You said this: “What if my experience of this reality is entirely a construct of my mind, and in fact I’m actually the Great Creator slumming it as one of its creations?” And then this: “Reality. IS” Try this: IS equals Reality. My own belief is that what comes closest to describing the indescribable reality is the One Mind School of Zen Buddhism, and as it happens, quantum physics (check Bell’s Theorem, for example) is coming closer and closer to validating Zen thought, though no physical verification will ever be possible owing to the fundamental nature of phase states of energy and the limitations of human perception. Bohm’s book can be read without the reader being able to follow the math, but if you can, so much the better. The mechanical model and its followers do not have a patent on the nature of reality, just as the theoreticians of other models do not; it remains open to question. The mechanical model, however, is short-sighted and overly dogmatic.
Wind your clock before you start calling people morons. I disagree with your physics conclusions, but I see no reason to call you a moron: I prefer to let you speak for yourself.
Kokoda,
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the UK declare war on Germany first?
It was like reading something written by someone who was wasted.
In the early years of the last century there began a phenomena that grew ever more spectacular. So strange it was that the misses of the house called upon the doctor of psychiatry, a renowned professional whose favorite activity was debunking the charlatans of that period in company with the magician Harry Houdini. But he could find ho trickery here. The event itself proceeded to run it’s course for the next 25 years and finally broke all contact in the early ’50’s. The result was a book…
…which eventually will change much of what we think of … everything. Not for now though, it’s far too advanced for most folks of today, still, some have studied long and gleaned much from it’s contents. I guess the one thing, of many, that is most comforting to know, is that death is but a moment, and then life really begins.
Quantum physics on TBP, not reality. Sorry DC I can’t follow that kind of reasoning. Robert has it right, without God there is no morality no right no wrong just random stuff happening.
robert h siddell jr
Well, if Jeebus can’t take a joke, he can lick my hairy ballz. And so can you … with your incessant sermonizing and tossing in bible verses at every fucking opportunity. In the other thread you and your cohort, John Angelo, another in-you-face bible thumper, practically turned TBP into a Jews For Jesus site. Wouldn’t you be happier at beliefnet or some other holly roller circle jerk?
And to you 8 cocksuckers who voted down my tongue-in-cheek post …… BLOW ME!!!
This place used to be fun. You religious fuknuts are trying to ruin it, as usual.
Montefrío
I gotta hand it to you …….. you are the most pretentious motherfucker on this site.
As one who has survived the “NDE” experience (drowning) I can state, without reservation, that life continues beyond death. But it hurts like hell when you return to your body because it’s supposed to be a one way trip to the other side.
Here’s an interesting take on an alternative theory on the “elephant in the room”. I sent this to Admin but he didn’t “get it”. Check it out and see what you think:
http://halfpasthuman.com/essays/zero_response.html
“But it hurts like hell when you return to your body because it’s supposed to be a one way trip to the other side.” ————– Westcoaster
That “one way trip” …. is it like getting fucked in the ass? I figured you would know about that.
Was your NDE the result of drowning in your own stupid liberal shit?
“Quantum physics, If I’m informed correctly, has the whole Schroedinger’s Cat thing against it.
Anyone who thinks that a phenomenon exists in a state that could be one way or another, depending on the observer to establish which it is, is a moron.
No system can logically depend on an observer for definition. This is a logical absurdity, and anyone who posits such, no matter if every other man on the planet agrees with him, is a fool. He’s just a fool with lots of company.
Whenever your hypothesis is supported only by an appeal to unreason, your hypothesis is wrong. It doesn’t matter if you lack another. Knowing what is wrong is often as useful as knowing what is correct.”
Yeah, I don’t like it either. Unfortunately its kind of got some testing going for it right now. Physics gets “spooky” at the quantum level.
In order to detect something, you have to do something to it. When you use a yardstick photons are bouncing off of the yardstick and giving you the information.
Same can be said for pressure guages, RTDs and the like.
When it gets to the particle level, just the act of measuring something changes its state. “We can’t know both position, and velocity”…or something like that.
Then of course there are the experiments demonstrating that both states existed until a certain point….shit gets weird.
Glad I’m a chemist who focuses on “real world” stuff, theoretical science always did give me a headache.
————————————————-
@article – I had some weird shit happen to me growing up, as did some family members, friends, and my wife’s family as well.
Enough weird shit piles up, and you’re forced to admit that while science can answer a lot of the questions mankind had about the universe, it can’t answer all of them.
At least not right now, not yet.
dc: “Anyone who seriously suggests that reality is altered simply by observing it is so boneheadedly stupid”
That seems remarkably short-sighted for someone who so recently made the profound disctinction between the mind and the brain. This distinction could not exist without something along the lines of quantum mechanics–something to bring WILL to an otherwise deterministic Cosmos. It is such a powerful distinction also, because from a Rational, naturalistic perspective the brain is simply a complex biochemical machine and yet I can change my brains biochemistry through force of will–this is a causality loop. A paradox–yet one which is readily observable.
On the physics side, it is interesting that the search for a Grand Unified Theory has come to the point where old assumptions must be tossed out. For instance, String/m theory always made the assumption that the strings/membranes that made up all matter and energy existed in time and space…now the new thinking (or at least one new way of thinking) is that the interactions of quanta (similar to strings/membranes) CREATE time and space—and how much would that change our understanding of the Cosmos.
It is all about Time and Scale. We see our Universe as unimaginably vast and ancient, but could it be both tiny and pass through its existence in a microsecond from some other, inconceivable perspective. of course. And it still changes nothing about our tiny little window into existence.
Also, along these lines, we must our most basic ideas. Arthur Schopenhauer clearly showed that all debate/philosophy is at its heart a matter of semantics. You want to discuss what “exists” yet how to we even begin to define the term outside of our own narrow perspective. “I think therefore I am…” right, but does that in turn mean nothing that is not sentient exists?
On Schrodinger’s Cat , General Relativity/Warping of Spacetime, etc. Anyone can say they are absurd and illogical…but THEY WORK. Everyone of you has a device that relies VERY heavily on the precepts of both Special and General Relativity being accurate. This is not open for “debate.” One cannot argue with a functional piece of hardware. BTW, anyone know what I’m talking about?
The precepts of quantum mechanics are also being applied in engineered, “real” hardware.
Dutchman says – “Gravity is proportional to the square of the distance. The gravity a one foot is 1, at two feet is 1/4, at 3 feet 1/9.” Yes, according top Newton’s Law of Universal gravitation, but when one looks at Gravity as the warping of spacetime described by General Relativity the picture becomes much less clear–I have heard postulations on gravity being a sinusoidal function (thus explaining the apparent “lack” of matter in the universe). But who the fuck really knows?
Gravity always gets mentioned while the other Fundamental Forces get left out. But it is these forces that may truly hold the building blokcs of existence.
“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together.” – Max Planck
And again, i must disagree with DC — QUESTIONS do matter, even if there are no answers questions keep us searching, keep us imagining. I would vastly prefer a world with no answers to one with no questions.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” — Albert Einstein
Stocky says:
“Montefrío
I gotta hand it to you …….. you are the most pretentious motherfucker on this site.”
I gotta at least be in the running? Top 5?
Shit, you assholes made me waste some of my best stuff on this fucking thread.
Stucky: Thank you! It comes naturally and coming from you, I take it as a compliment. One man’s erudition is another’s pretension, n’est pas? Pretty much a product of the way I was raised and schooled, plus experience in various different cultures and a lifetime of reading.
I enjoy many of your posts and am grateful for them, but many of your comments display a petulance and vulgarity that ill suits the author of those posts. You’re a bright and often articulate guy: why try and sound as if you’re the locker room lout?
#HiggsBosonsMatter
Stucky is ill with sickness. Poor baby. It will be ok.Cookies and milk for you.Bed time by 8.pm.
Many of the people who have these experiences are already involved in the occult. The occult
is the door way to the demonic forces.
I drink and drove for 20+ years .No wrecks and only 1 DUI in those years. No out of body experiences but I’m sure the LORD was watching over me.
@Monte – I agree with you part way. Vonnegut put it this way:
“profanity and obscenity entitle people who don’t want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you.”
However, there is fun and good-natured comradery in locker room vulgarity.
And sometimes “Fuck” is the only word that fits…quite often, in fact, when one is speaking of “markets”, economies, American culture and especially governments.
@Drud Welcome aboard the pretension train! GUT will always have to keep changing for the simple reason (according to yours truly) that in our present state, we cannot “explain” what IS, because the Simultaneity that IS the individual mind and Mind is such that the Totality can only be experienced, not “understood”. Time-and-Space are phase constraints particular (pun intended) to materialized energy, sez I, but IS is the ground from which materialized phenonmena arise and into which they subside and as such is beyond “existence”.
Pretension on rye and hold the mayo!
1) Recurring dream since I was a teenager – someone important will die in 2000. Over and over and over. For a long time, I thought it might be me. Some 40 years later, on July 27 2000, I found out who it was. My father.
2) Latest incident (there have been many) was several weeks ago. While playing golf, I had a brief mind flash, “Jessie’s dead.” Jessie was our son’s dog. When I got home, my wife came up to me sobbing and crying. “Jessie’s gone,” she blurted out. She had been put down while I was on the golf course, and neither of us knew she was in mortal danger.
” .. why try and sound as if you’re the locker room lout?” ———– Montefrío
To quote Popeye The Sailor Man … I AM WHAT I YAM!!
Hey … you’re an Ivy Leaguer, speak 18 languages, have read 75,000 books in the past year, have traveled the world, your kids are practically Einsteins …… so, you should take “pretentious motherfucker” as a damned compliment.
In the spirit of good fellowship: Fuck, shit, cunt, prick, period-in-the-mouth motherfucker dyke whore bitch douche bag ass-wipe bastard dickless wonder and hail to the chief, the banksters, Hillary and other favorites. Will that do?
“… but I’m sure the LORD was watching over me.” ——— bb
You rejoice at the rape, torture, and death of a young woman simply because she’s a liberal.
And you think Jesus gives a fuck about you? You have a rich fantasy life. My gut feel is that Jesus thinks you’re a dick. Seriously. You don’t display even one iota of evidence of being a Christian.
Yes, do come to NYC and buy me a beer …. that will put me in the mood to stick a rusty fork in your eye, and twist it.
Montefrío
Not a bad start. But you need more verbs. And only two fucks? Puh-lease!! Piker.
“we cannot “explain” what IS, because the Simultaneity that IS the individual mind and Mind is such that the Totality can only be experienced, not “understood”. Time-and-Space are phase constraints particular (pun intended) to materialized energy”
You lost me here Monte. Define your terms better, per Schopenhauer.
Stucky, I DO take it as a compliment. But I can’t help but suspect that the articulate and insightful poster is who you REALLY are and the loutishness is a pose. Not sure why, exactly, and believe it or not, I have had and have my moments, but at 69, I’ve kind of let that go except for special occasions. And as for my kids: what do you mean “practically”! And, yeah, I speak a bunch of languages and have read a lot: it’s a fact and what’s so bad about it? Don’t make me better or worse than anyone, just maybe as well or better informed than some. Creds, man, nothing but creds. And if that means I ain’t one of the boyz, well, cheet, I guess I’ll have to live with it. So far, so good.