The End of the High Church

Guest Post by The Zman

Years ago, I had cause to be at the Episcopal cathedral in Albany for a mass. A friend was being ordained into the church as a priest, so I went up to celebrate the occasion with his family. I noted the subtle beauty of the church, particularly inside. It just oozed tradition, which is quite imposing in the spiritual setting. The outside of the building was rather plain, which is what made the inside impressive. I walked in expecting a utilitarian facility and instead I walked into a beautiful cathedral with arches and stained glass.

The mass was not well attended, despite the fact there were half a dozen people being minted as priests that day. My guess, at the time, was that most of the people were relatives of the condemned. Talking a bit with some people after the mass, I was told that attendance at Episcopal services in the area was down to a sprinkling and most of the regulars were old people. If what I saw in Albany is typical for the church as a whole, I’d bet they are finished in a generation at best. A church without worshipers is a building.

This is a common story with mainline Protestant churches. The local Presbyterian Church is lightly attended and the average age is somewhere in the 60’s. They used to have a grammar school, but that closed. They still run a daycare center, but I suspect that is just a business. They hope that the mothers dropping off their kids will decide to attend services at some point. Until then it is a cash relationship for services rendered. There’s a good chance government subsidies play some role as the kids are mostly black.

Part of what has destroyed the mainline Protestant churches is their full-throated embrace of Progressive lunacy. At my friend’s ordination, three of the people ordained were woman. Judging by the haircuts, all three were lesbians. Gay marriage is a huge issue in these churches, driving off the sensible and leaving only those who see Christianity as a vehicle for Progressive activism. Many of these churches are no longer Christian, as a theological matter. They are just Progressive meeting houses for the deranged.

If you are a normal person, the mainline Protestant churches have nothing to offer but endless lectures about the joys of liberalism. It’s a familiar pattern. First the women take over, then the men leave, except for the guys willing to take orders from the gals. Then the normal women bolt. This boiling off of the sensible eventually leaves the crazies in charge of the organization. Before long the freak flag is hoisted and it is the bar in Star Wars. It’s the pattern we saw with Labour in Britain and the Democrats in the US.

A similar thing seems to be happening in the Catholic Church, which had managed to resist the same fate until recently. The turning point appears to have been the sex scandals, which have been used by the lunatics to push out the sensible. It’s also emptied the pews in many parts of the world, as parishioners simply could not tolerate the handling of these cases. The conservatives in the Church should have gone on the offensive to purge the pink monasteries and the buggerers. Instead they surrendered.

It is hard to know if the Red Pope will live long enough to destroy the Church, but he will certainly cripple it. There is only one good response to the death of Fidel Castro and that is “enjoy hell.” That’s true for the Pope, as well. It’s perfectly fine for the religious to pray for the souls of the wicked, but it is not required. The Pope should be the one guy making that point, but instead he took the opportunity to celebrate the life of a homicidal maniac. The reason is Fidel belongs to the same Church as the Pope – the Communist Church.

What’s happening with the Catholic Church is it is following the same path as the Protestant churches. They are inviting in people from other religions, thinking they will be Catholic first and communist or Progressive second. It never works that way. The secular faith always comes first, which is why you can never find a liberal Catholic, who is pro-life. Their liberal faith will never tolerate opposition to abortion and their liberalism trumps everything else. A man cannot have two religions; one must be dominant.

The demise of the high church in the West was inevitable. Big, highly organized organizations need protection from the state to survive. McDonalds cannot exist without government protection. This is especially true of churches, which often challenge the wishes of the rulers. It’s why the Catholics were willing to cut deals with both communists and fascists. It is why the Orthodox Church supports Putin. No above ground church can exist at war with the ruling class. They always have to cut a deal.

When the the ruling classes of the West began to abandon their Christianity, it was just a matter of time. Students of the French Revolution know that the radical’s hostility to the Church started with economics, but quickly became ideological. As the religion of the Western ruling classes became one version of leftism or another, hostility to the high church was inevitable. It took longer in the US than Europe, but we are well on our way to see the elimination of the main churches.

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Tommy
Tommy

Now that is well done sir, well done indeed.

Edwitness
Edwitness

The only thing wrong with what you said is that the departure from Biblical belief started with the rcc. They were first to incorporate pagan worship into Christianianity.
Will Durant, the Pulitzer Prize winning historian, in his book Caesar and Christ, had this to say about the rc religion’s beginning. 
”When Christianity conquered Rome, the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex Maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror.
Also James Carrol, in his book, Constantine’s Sword: The Church and The Jews, had this to say:
”As seen in Constantine’s originating piety, that supreme deity would have been associated with the sun, and pagans would have recognized, with reason, their own solar cult in such Christian practices as orienting churches to the east, worshiping on “sun day”, and celebrating the birth of the deity at the winter solstice”.

Truly the rcr is baptized paganism.
And some of the protestant churches are really just returning to their mother, “the mother of harlots”. Rev.17:5

Jim
Jim

Edwitness- with all due respect you’re a douchebag, using as your “source” the widely discredited Constantine’s Sword. I’ll leave it at that, but if you really believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Vic
Vic

Just to add, I also have the Will Durant series of books. Will Durant is an atheist/humanist, so you can’t trust his opinion on religious topics. There are several issues I distrust Durant on, not just religion.
Be a skeptic when reading. Try to find out as much as possible about the author before blindly trusting what they say.

KaD
KaD

The churches turned me off because many of the church people I’ve met are the biggest pricks around. Prime example: my recent ex-boss, who was a regular church goes and does bible studies tried to screw me out of unemployment when he let me go in spite of the fact I asked him to his face if he was going to and he said no. This from a guy who with his teacher wife raked in $24,000 for the MONTH of September.

the frisco kid
the frisco kid

I agree, was turned off on attending church decades ago because I saw that many folks attend church for all kinds of reasons not many of which pertain to the love of God. They go show off their new hat/new husband, to find fresh victims to bugger/scam out of money or to spy on their neighbors. If I want to talk to God, like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof, I just raise my eyes to heaven and talk to him.

Edwitness
Edwitness

Jesus is the only true savior because He is the only one who ever conquered death. It is the issue that death brings that that affects us all.
Looking for Him in those who are poor examples of what He is is no excuse for not trusting Him. You have the book. In it you will find the savior you seek.
But, much like the people here, people are flawed and therefore are not always the best example of who Jesus is. He knew that so He came personally so you could know Him.

razzle
razzle

What do you mean by Jesus conquering death besides it’s just what the story says?

I agree with you, but I’m curious if you have any ideas about what that means besides the story says it happened. What is death for real? What is overcoming death for real… not projections… but for realz realz the way Jesus was for realz.

Edwitness
Edwitness

Death is first of all separation. For the non Christian it is separation of breath from the body. Death is also separation from God. And for the Christian physical death is when the spirit separates from the body.
The non Christian when he dies ceases consciousness. The Christian when he dies is immediately with the Lord and never ceases consciousness.
When we see in the scriptures that death separated mankind from God, the description of death is a power, a being that was given rulership over mankind. Rom.5:14.
This power used our physical senses against us by blocking our ability to hear or perceive God. And because God is spirit, the natural man has no ability to relate to God. No communication. Death’s rulership holds man there.
When Jesus came He changed all that. By conquering death through the resurrection He made the way for us to have communication with God if we place our faith in Him and His resurrection.
Eventually death for the non Christian leads to a resurrection of consciousness and along with it eternal separation from God. And for the Christian eternal life with Him.

razzle
razzle

*sigh* As I thought.

As a believer… believe me when I tell you you are useless for communicating to anyone but yourself.

If you can’t speak to the fallen… you might as well not speak because those who can hear you don’t need to hear you.

You’ve lost the ability to communicate in tangible ways to tangible people living tangible lives the terror of coming up to the wall of eternal what if, eternal I could have, eternal why didn’t I.

Nobody can answer all those questions by following rules… but only by living according to honesty and truth with themselves and those who knew them. If they can die and know in their heart they were honest, then they know the path to the kingdom of God more than those who followed every rule even when they wish they “didn’t have to”.

Edwitness
Edwitness

Who said anything about rules?

razzle
razzle

— “Who said anything about rules?”

Exactly the perfect question.

Explain to someone who doesn’t already understand what you mean, how to put their faith in Him. What should they do? Today? Tonight? When they wake up scared at 3am? When they wake up for work?

Not platitudes… commentary on daily life during the abstract.

Edwitness
Edwitness

How do we trust anyone? When we are children we trust so completely in our parents ability to protect and provide for us we don’t even give these things a thought. This is how we are to trust God.
It doesn’t start this way. We grow into it through the experience of being taken care of by Him.
Everyone can relate to this because God rains on the just and the unjust. Meaning that every breath, every heartbeat, every morsel of food, and the impulses that make our bodies work to fulfill a task or relate to others is His gift to each individually. Whether His child or not.
The difference is the Christian recognizes this as God’s provision and the non Christian does not. But, there is no rational person who can truly believe that they are in control of whether or not they draw another breath. Or have another heart beat.
So the fact that they do not recognize this obvious fact as a gift from their creator is on them. And ultimately they keep themselves separated from God by allowing king death to control them.
Only Jesus can change that.

razzle
razzle

You ask someone to trust a result after death while another asks someone to trust results on earth… and delivers.

Do you see why you are failing on earth?

You are speaking gibberish to those who need to hear you, and those who have even a vague chance of understanding you then have to overcome every single day the social and economic pressure they will experience for just *trying* to listen to you.

You offer platitudes. Nothing more. You will lose to the pedophiles if you keep at this the way you are. You have to start giving real people something better to cling to than their fear of the taxman and the crimeman.

You are failing in your mission.

Edwitness
Edwitness

Yeah, I can see your point. No wonder Paul and the rest of the apostles were such failures, right? All they spoke were platitudes. Not!
It is not our message. It is His. You change it and you take everyone with you to the place your non “platitudes” will take you.
His words are empowered by His Spirit. That is how someone hears the true message of salvation. Just as Peter said when Jesus asked them if they would leave also. “To Whom would we go? You are the one with the words of eternal life.” Just platitudes huh?
You have it all wrong. Jesus did not die to make this life all rosey. He died so you could have eternal life. That is our hope. We hope for what we do not yet have.
We must lay this life down to have eternal life. For an example of what that means read 2Cor.11:23-28. To gain the next life you must lose this one. If this one is more important to you, then whatever this life gives you, it will be the best you will ever get.
Your problem is that you look for redemption in earthly things. But, redemption comes from above. You know, where all those platitudes come from.

razzle
razzle

And I say this to you as someone who agrees with you and believes what you believe.

A parent proves their trust by being reliable in the face of evidence over the long term. You ignore that in your example. If the parent fails… the child rightfully rejects the parent for failing to teach them how to navigate the actual real world they are navigating.

razzle
razzle

— “Yeah, I can see your point. No wonder Paul and the rest of the apostles were such failures, right? All they spoke were platitudes. Not!”

They spoke plainly and straight to the people of their time in ways that were practical to those people and their daily lives that led toward the higher understandings.

You pantomime Paul and the rest all while you can’t speak to the people of your time.

It is not about redemption in earthly things, it is about understanding how to translate those concepts into helping people navigate earthly today with an eye toward the higher ideal/gospel/destination.

Note: I am not your down voter.

Jim
Jim

Agree about the mainline Protestant churches – a shell of their former selves. However I think you’re wrong about the Catholic Church. They are still well attended (except in inner cities) and at the local level, the priests still condemn abortion, and promote man/woman relationships and in general the normal sphere of morality.

Andrew G.
Andrew G.

I’m a real estate developer.

Several (big) projects of mine in the last couple of years have been with defunct churches.

Many have been around for a long time and have great locations…. but most churches are poorly run by people who feel money is evil… then the church closes because there’s no money to even keep the lights on much less anything else.

One last thing….

In my opinion… ANY organization that demonizes the feminine….?

can kiss my ass!

Jus sayin’ ….

Westcoaster
Westcoaster

I tried to click the “like” button because I agree with what you’re saying, and I’ve noticed several churches closing up shop on dailyjobcuts.com
BUT my upclick became a downclick. Anyway that’s why you have so many downvotes.

Something else I’ve noticed on that jobcuts site recently is the closing of at least ten independent jewelry stores around the country. I’m guessing they’re closing now so they can have a big going out of biz sale to cover Dec/Jan when most jewelry sales are made.

Anonymous
Anonymous

Great lisp you got there Angie..#FeminismIsCancer

comment image

Anonymous
Anonymous

2Ti 4:3 The time is coming when people won’t listen to good teaching. Instead, they will look for teachers who will please them by telling them only what they are itching to hear. (CEV)

hardscrabble farmer

Not much you could add.

Let the dead bury the dead.

James the Wanderer

Yeah, sounds about right. Nostradamus wrote a series of verses that described the Popes, going forwards for a few centuries. When you choose to bend the words properly, he more-or-less accurately described every Pope from his time to this.
[WHEN the great 16th Century prophet Nostradamus stared into the future, he described the fate of the final pope with eerie detail. And the first sign will soon be in our skies.

The 266th pope now sits on the Throne of St Peter. According to the pen of several prophets, he will be the last.

One prophet, a Saint of the Catholic Church, counted down the popes until the end of the world. After Pope Francis there are no more on that list.

Nostradamus himself foresaw the end of a pope and the Church itself at a time when a great comet was to fill our skies. Comet Ison, said to be one of the brightest for centuries, will pass by later this year.]
http://www.news.com.au/world/ancient-prophecies-point-to-pope-francis-being-the-last/story-fndir2ev-1226596943811

If you want to see lunacy in action, visit the Unitarians. They probably have a church somewhere near you. Most of their stuff is harmless, and some churches are more spacey than others, but in general, if it’s fringey, they’re either into it or OK with it. Their support for “resettling refugees” eats at me, as does their virulent environmentalism, but then, where does environmentalism belong if not in a church? They claim Emerson, Thoreau and the other Transcendentalists as forefathers, and Jefferson thought Unitarianism would eventually take over and crowd out all the other religions in America; hasn’t happened yet, probably won’t, but they’re still there.
I lean towards Buddhism these days, when I don’t lean sniper.

Anonymous
Anonymous

Comet Ison came and went 3 years ago, no one noticed.

No man knows the timing, just that the season is at hand.

chris
chris

For two thousand years God has always had people on fire for him doing His will. Most of the times it has been a counter culture battle that appears to be a lost battle but over a long enough time line you see the victory.

Good article thanks

flash
flash

It’s goes without saying, but for those that don’t know any better, the clergy is not the church.

Anonymous
Anonymous

Christianity is just another of those wacko middle eastern cults forced onto Europeans and then the Americas.The early Christians were as intolerant as Muslims nowadays.They launched crusades into northern and Eastern Europe to convert ,massacring the population.Its on its last legs good riddance.Europeans were always pagan deep down,hell most Christian holidays have pagen roots,it was the only way to get people to convert by pretending it was a continuation of their pagan past.

Vic
Vic

For an understanding of how Christianity differs from other Middle Eastern religions, and also a look at what early Christians believed, I suggest you read “The Apology of Aristides.”
http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/aristides-kay.html

For a better understanding of some of the finer points of Christianity in general, I suggest Gary North’s book “Moses and Pharaoh.”

FaF
FaF

Western civilization is laser-focused on material progress, attainment of material comfort and accumulation of material wealth. As such, it never was fully Christian. Christian dogma eschews everything that the West finds overtly or covertly laudable – hypocrisy, lust for money, sexual deviancy, wanton violence, ruthless competition. This betrays a deeply rooted pagan nature that masks itself with a basic Christian ritual but never adopted its substance.
Being a true Christian requires a level of sacrifice that very few people are capable of. In America such people are all but absent at all. What Americans consider to be Christianity is just a stripped-down version of the original teachings with different degrees of profanity marking various denominations. It could never be any other way. The cultural setup of this country is entirely anti-Christian, regardless of its Puritan underpinnings.

Stucky

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;” ——– Isaiah 6

“Holiness” is the ONLY attribute of God repeated three times. It must be important.

========

“Be Holy, for I am holy.” —— 1 Peter

Sounds important.

========

1. The meaning of the word, holy is simple: —> apartness, to be set apart, separateness. That’s all it means.

2. Separate from what? Separate from the world. What the world is. How the world thinks. The values of this world. Set apart FOR God’s use.

Conclusion:

1. There is NO DIFFERENCE between the world and the traditional church. None! They have become one.

2. When there is no difference between the world I live in, and the holy place I worship in ….. then there is absolutely no longer a reason to go to church.

I think that’s why churches are dying.

Murpheus

In Hebrew one constructs the superlative by repeating the adjective three times. To construct the comparative, twice. Holy, Holy, Holy means “The Holiest.” I don’t mean to come off as holy, holy than thou.

starfcker
starfcker

A church free of morality has no reason to exist

Anonymous
Anonymous

No reason beyond that which Satan dictates it has anyway.

DEMIURGOS
DEMIURGOS

All Priests of every persuasion have been complicit in mankinds demise.Take an accounting of history and how come these robed Vicars are still in place? Listen to the Still Small Voice Within…

grace country pastor

“The End of the High Church”

To which I say thank God. The very last thing the “high” church wants a man to hear is the gospel of his salvation, as Christ revealed to and through the apostle Paul. It was satan himself who said he would “be like the Most High” in Isaiah 14 and he has pulled off the lie in stunning fashion as the author (and much of the world) only begins to dimly recognize.

Removing Religious Chains

It is Christ and Christ alone died for the sins of mankind. Every man is a sinner in need of a Savior and God in Christ is that Savior. There is one one book necessary to a mans understanding… the King James Bible. There are 13 epistles in that entire blessed book that are written directly to men today in this, Gods dispensation of free grace. They are Paul’s epistles.

Col 1:24-28… “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME FOR YOU, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, BUT NOW is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”

Rom 3:19-28… “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN. BUT NOW the righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is no difference: For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD, to declare HIS righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time HIS righteousness: that HE might be just, AND the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds of the law.”

Do you know you are a sinner in need of a Savior? Trust that Christ died in your place, as the penalty for sin is death. Christ took your punishment upon Himself because He does not want you to die eternally. Accept that most gracious gift God so freely offers! He shed His blood for you. Listen to the above hour long Bible teaching, take the time and remove the religious chains satan has so effectively bound the world with.

Gal 5:1… “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

Hear, for the first time, all that God has to say to men TODAY. Not in time past, not in the ages to come, BUT NOW, by way of the apostle he sent to you and me, Paul. Learn HOW to read the Bible.

Eph 3:9… “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:”

Had the devil and his princes knew what Christ was to reveal to Paul from the Highest Heavenly place, they never would have crucified the Lord of Glory!

1 Cor 2:7-8… “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

God beat satan at his own game.

Col 2:15… “And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

That does not stop satan from continually attempting to blind the minds of men through all religious practices. Religion defined as mans own attempt to earn Gods favor or assuage His wrath.

2 Cor 4:3-4… “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

Believe and be saved.

Stucky

Raise your hand (up vote) if you read this sermon.

Stucky

Raise your hand if you understood it.

Edwitness
Edwitness

Great stuff brother. Careful now. You’ll have razzle on you for spouting “platitudes”.

razzle
razzle

Glad to know I got under your skin.
Keep the faith.

Edwitness
Edwitness

Razzle,
Why would anyone who calls himself Christian be “glad” about that?

razzle
razzle

Because you consider someone who agrees with you overall but suggests you can do better in your mission… an opponent.

Are you suggesting Jesus never got under people’s skin that he felt were failing in their mission?

I’m not Jesus, but I’m not your enemy either.

Tommy
Tommy

I know this thread is aging, but Z Man – you inspired me. I sent the following to my pastor, even though my family has been in poor attendance for a while, but that wasn’t always the case. …..

Please forward this to Joe, thank you.

Joe, regardless of where I came across it I believe the piece below is increasingly relevant and necessary to those in a position to act. Old people can cut checks as you most certainly know. If if that’s the goal (and it often appears to be just that), you’re winning. But as in Japan with a population that know sells more adult diapers than children’s…..it portends a very different future. In a world that virtue signals all things nice and then proceeds to borrow from tomorrow to pay for today, this will likely fall on deaf ears….no offense, really. Seriously, really. And I am in no way referring to the recent facility upgrades, quite the contrary. I am referring to political correctness and it’s influence…it’s goals, as in “To learn who rules over you [or what], simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize”.

It’s not just ‘times-are-a-changin’ and demographics. We see things like Methodist church et al as a proxy for state intrusion into a sacred part of our personal lives and know the tentacles don’t stop there. The world is changing for sure, as evidenced by the recent presidential elections and the FACT that folks are awakening to the realization that our faith, trust, and good nature is being used against us at the highest levels in business, government, and religion (pope francis for example, and the lack of capitalization is not an accident).

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it, right? Before an institution breaks down, there are signs if you are actively looking for them. Joe, if you’re surrounded by ‘yes men’ on the council then you’re as good as blind. I hope to serve that purpose here today and show you a flaw in the keel of your ship. The older folks want peace and stability, but mostly they want to keep what they have and get more of it even if that equates to hard times for others – even their own despite their incessant ‘virtue signaling’. As moral and civic decay continue to spread across the country, you realize sometimes that good people will support the wrong things if it means their lives are not exposed to a negative event. History is on my side here so there is simply no counter to that last statement, period. If you see what I see…. what we see, then you face the daunting task of making a difference in a world where polarized views are nearly immune to words and discussion. In our ever fractured world, leadership from a man in your position getting people to understand the realities of what a zero-sum game actually mean to them and theirs is about all that’s left since hope and faith are personified in folks like you. This is a ship with no life boats.

As a leader in a smaller community you command respect until you don’t. Traditions that have endured for centuries being changed in the span of a decade are not what makes tradition. It leaves the parishioners feeling like an audience in a kabuki theater where the story line changes and in fact, should. If I don’t like the show, I walk out….simple as that. And increasingly folks are learning they don’t need a church and it’s trappings standing between them and their God. And that’s a shame.

What I am attempting to say in far too many words, is that before what’s happened continues to erode the edifice of faith you both depend upon and enjoy, you need to arrest the fall before it reaches a tipping point and that church becomes, one day, just a building. Sorry for the lecturing tone, it wasn’t intended that way, but I believe in the adage ‘you can ignore that facts but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring the facts’.

I couldn’t decide to write the above to you or just go with ‘this is how we feel’. Either way…….from a piece I stumbled across……

(what follows was your piece Z Man)

Richo
Richo

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