Sitting in the waiting room … now a constant in my life … reading the only crappy rag available, Time, a headline caught my eye; “Why You Shouldn’t Punish Your Kids For Lying”
Lots of folks here have kids and/or grandkids. Some, like Maggie, are pregnant. I thought maybe you’d like to weigh in. Maybe you can save someone from making a fatal error. Yeah, a non-controversial question …. maybe this will get to 25.
The article said punishment is ineffective in changing behavior, and research shows there are three better methods. Here are the highlights;
—1) Praise: You could ask your child to say something that happened at school that is true. It is not critical what that is. This is about practice. When your child complies, praise him enthusiastically. Be specific: “That was great! You told me what happened just like I asked. Wow!” and give your child a hug or a high five.
––2) Model: Explicitly tell the truth. … play a game at dinner. Each person tells one thing that was true that day. Again, give a little praise to the child who normally lies if she plays along.
––3) De-emphasize punishment and moralizing: They are unlikely to change behavior. Use very mild punishment (light reprimand, short loss of privilege, a brief time-out). More severe, harsh or enduring punishments (shouting, taking away something for a week, hitting) are not more effective in actually changing the frequency of lying.
Q1: How were YOU raised regarding lying … and was it effective?
Q2: Do you raise your children the same, or differently … and was it effective?
Q3: Realistically, isn’t it virtually impossible to NOT lie? If so, why even attempt to teach your kids to keep the 9th commanment? Isn’t it hypocritical, and just setting them up for failure by imposing unreachable demands?
Me?
Q1: There wasn’t any bullshit praise and touchy-feely horseshit. Punishment was the name of the game. My dad would literally kick my ass, slap me upside my head, and kick me in the fuck. My mom ACTUALLY DID wash my mouth with soap. Really. It was highly effective! I pretty much stopped lying … to my parents.
Q2: Pretty much the same way. Except I eschewed my dad’s physicality. Tried a softer touch. Didnt work all that great. Then I read a book by Jim Dobson, “Dare To Discipline”. Said it’s not a good idea to “spare the rod”. Soooo …. I kicked their ass, slapped them upside the head, and kicked them in the fuck. It was highly effective. They pretty much stopped lying …. to me.
Q3. It IS impossible to NOT lie!! We lie the first day after we learn to speak. Bold lies, white lies, half truths, lies of commission, lies of omission, exaggerations and minimizations … there are countless ways and opportunities to weave and deceive, and every human on earth lied in one manner or another in the past week.
99% of you fucken LIED to your kids about Santa — stop lying to yourself that it wasn’t a lie!! Nice example you set!! My dad lied about hair growing on my knuckles, and mom said I would go blind. Liars!!
Just imagine if your every thought was spoken! Two movies depicted the hilarity that would ensue (while ignoring the absolute clusterfuk potential): “Liar, Liar” and “What Women Want”.
The 9th Commanment is further proof that the Bible was written by men, uninspired. Because what kind of God would issue a command that He knows is impossible to keep … and is punishable if and when trangressed?? Well … a God who gets his jollies by kicking your ass, slapping you upside yo head, and kicking you in the fuck! That’s what. No thanks! Now, if only the 9th Commandment said the following: — “Thou shalt keep thy bullshiting to a minimum.” … I would be a Believer today!
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AAAAND, THE BIGGEST DAMNED LIE OF ALL TIME
HA, HA
Rocky
My mom ACTUALLY DID wash my mouth with soap. – Thanx for the reminder; just once and forgot all about it.
edit:
From Q1 – Really. It was highly effective! I pretty much stopped lying … to my parents.
From Q2 – It was highly effective. They pretty much stopped lying …. to me.
Thought that was pretty much hilarious and very sharp mentally. I’ll try to dump on something you write in the future (swelled heads are a terrible thing to waste).
In our home there is no greater commandment to keep than to be truthful. We expect it and they respect it. When it does happen- and it is exceedingly rare- they are deeply troubled and readily admit it and come clean. They have come to believe that is one of the primary duties in life.
I’m on the fence the “everybody lies” bit and if everything we say or don’t say qualifies as a lie (it is a deliberate attempt to deceive) then I suppose it is true to some extent. I am still troubled by participating in the whole Santa thing, but is it a lie? I’d have to say yes and one that has bigger implications further on in life (we live in a democracy/everyone is equal/diversity is our greatest strength).
I have taken the time to explain to them that being truthful doesn’t mean you must always say everything that is on your mind and that there are ways to get out of telling things you’d prefer to remain private without lying.
Now it brings me to our conversations- like the Moon.
If I write something it’s because I have thought about it. Somethings I think about in greater depth than others and I want to share those thoughts, at least with people I feel comfortable discussing things with and then when I am honest and write/speak about those things truthfully I get my ass handed to me. Talking about something is not the same as demanding that other people believe the things that you do, but it is a way of exposing yourself. When you are ridiculed for being honest it makes you either learn to shut your mouth, or think less of others. Neither of which are good choices.
Great topic.
“I am honest and write/speak about those things truthfully I get my ass handed to me …”
Uh huh. I know a thing or two about speaking honestly and getting my ass handed to me. See the Wicca thread … for starters.
But these fuckers here will NEVER shut me up! HF, I trust the same is true for you. Keep on preaching … even the moon stuff!!
Tell you what. Next time you post stuff about not landing on the moon, I’ll try to find a point, or two, with which to agree.. No shit-flinging! (Note: offer good for only ONE post.)
Stuck – if you do not behave, and stop stirring shit, I am gonna get a tall ladder, climb it, and give you a Vulcan death grip until you straighten up.
I played “sick” one Thursday to avoid going to school that day. I was in third grade and we had that Friday off. Dad had planned a camping trip (us kids lived to go camping) for the three day weekend but declared that since I was “sick” he’d be an irresponsible father if he took me camping so he cancelled the trip. I don’t recall him calling me out for lying about being sick but the message was received loud and clear nonetheless. The message was reinforced by my brothers in their own way since they got screwed out of going camping too.
When you get right down to it, lying = theft so you can use one or the other to teach lessons about both.
Q1. Dad generally was in charge of discipline once I was big enough to fight back. Truth was thoroughly encouraged, don’t remember how. Once a Boy Scout the impetus to lie seemed to die down, although occasional incidents happened and generally were immediately detected; I learned that simply keeping quiet was a good way to minimize hassles.
Q2. We have generally taught our children to think; they have figured out that lies rarely work, or not for long. Whether they are minimizing hassles or not is up to them; neither has a criminal record, publicly been called out for it or any real need to, now that adolescent angst is past them,so now it is probably not important.
The television character _Lucifer_ has a trick where he only has to look deep into someone’s eyes and say “What is your deepest, darkest desire?” and the victim immediately tells him the truth. Mostly I wouldn’t want to know (Lucifer generally needs the info to help his partner Detective Decker, or devise a fitting punishment for someone who really deserves it).
Carly Simon sings “We have no secrets … we tell each other most everything … about the lovers in our past, and why they didn’t last ..” but ends up sighing, “But sometimes I wish … often I wish … that I never, never, ever knew … some of those secrets of yours!” I seem trustworthy, and some folks see fit to confide in me. Mostly, though, I’m with Carly. Here it is:
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Thank you for actually answering the questions!
My kids were not allowed to lie to us. Best not do that. As kids do, they slipped up sometimes. But in the end they became honest, responsible citizens best I can tell.
Spare the rod, spoil the child. Lack of discipline will ruin a kid far faster than anything else. My Mother tells a story of the one and only tantrum I ever had. Four years old, in the grocery store over a half gallon of ice cream I wanted. I got one good slap on the ass and never did it again.
Lies are a clever thing. You want clever kids. It was difficult at times to come down hard after being told a lie by mine. I would keep questioning the lie until the truth was ferreted out.
What fun. To honestly watch how the kids little minds would race for the ability to cover the last lie was a treat. Could they stare you down while answering? How’d their mouths twitch.
So this is your homework assignment? And part of that assignment was to grade yourself with a red ink pen? (Off to the side you spy your Calvin and Hobbes volume 1, with a bookmark). The deadpan stare continues…is dad buying it? Almost breathing a sigh of reprieve as Dad starts leaving the room but then he spins round like those TV detectives and asks, “where’s the red pen” ?
Hahahaha…God I loved it.
You must have raised some wonderful, future politicians—taught them to lie with a straight face and no remorse.
I once asked a court ordered shrink if his children lied. He said no. I told him he does not know his children. The man also denied he was a gatekeeper, another lie.
I once had a bar of soap stuck in my mouth by mom for saying a cuss word to my best friend when we were blueberry picking in Maine at age 6 or 7.
There was a post here not so long ago about corporal punishment for children; and how for some recalcitrant children it proves to be beneficial for their development. Just watching my older brother catch hell by my disciplinarian father put the fear of retribution clearly in my mind. I mostly was spared but many many teachers applied hardwood to my bottom – and all of my good friends experienced the same at one time or another. In the locker room bruises were sometimes visible in Jr High on victims of hard licks by faculty.
The list of lies my two sons promoted as children is endless, they had a good teacher in my ex wife. They eventually became aware of the damage of lies and are as honest as the next man today.
In my psych studies I read somewhere how spanking may or may not be good for children but it sure helped (normal) parents feel better about themselves. Which indirectly could help the poor child.
I will spare you tales of a technique I learned in professional school. It was called ‘hand over mouth’ (and nose). It was very effective in getting a non compliant child to listen. The only good thing about using it (in extreme cases only) is that meds are not needed to sedate/knockout an unruly child and risk overdose and worse. I discontinued the practice after I left the military.
Uh, I think the technique you described is called “suffocation”.
You are again perceptive dawg. When a child has life threatening or debilitating health issues and you cannot apply some simple local anesthesia due to dramatic acting out, not traumamatic assault, it is a way to achieve control and perform surgical intervention without the risk of oversedation or, when different modalities are not present or available. As I said before for use in extreme instances. R U doggin’ me?
Doggin’ you? No. A casual, if quick, read might miss the details of your description; as mine did at first.
Amazing what they teach in “professional school”, whatever that is.
So you are. I wish I had a pedodontic anesthesiologist at my disposal when I was at the end of the supply line at a remote medical detachment in Turkey. Or maybe fly the little bratty spoiled kid to Germany for treatment would be your choice. You wanna pay for that? I could call in a C130 for emergency evacuation if it were a perfect world.
” The 9th commandment is further proof that the Bible was written by men, uninspired”
-I honestly dont think you believe that (lying)
Oh, I am serious. Serious as a heart attack.
The 10 Commandments List, Short Form
1– You shall have no other gods before Me.
2–You shall not make idols.
3– You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4– Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5– Honor your father and your mother.
6– You shall not murder.
7– You shall not commit adultery.
8– You shall not steal.
9– You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10–You shall not covet.
Eight of those are possible to keep at all times, at least in theory
#10, not covering, would be pretty hard. Siblings covet each other’s stuff by the time they are two years old.
#9, lying, is impossible to keep. Humans lie; truest two word combo you’ll ever see. A perfect God would not demand perfection from imperfect beings. This is logical. Therefore, the Bible is imperfect. Even bb and AWB will agree.
You know God does not demand perfection (more lying)
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your. Father which is in heaven is perfect.”
—— Jesus, in Mt 5:48
You might consider getting a Bible to read. I hear you can get them cheap on the internet.
Wait-I thought you didnt like people Quoting the Bible-yet another lie. That bullshit story about the raccoon was hilarious by the way. (maybe it was very sick, I wasnt there)
“For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God”-Romans 3:23
Ive always suspected your trolling to be retaliation for your problems , problems that you blame on God. The God you know is real.
“As it is written: There is none righteous,no, not one.”-Romans 3:10
“Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him” -Proverbs 26:10
As for your Christian trolling-“As a dog returns to his own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly” -Proverbs 26:11
But seriously , you have had a hard life-Good luck.
“Wait-I thought you didnt like people Quoting the Bible-yet another lie.”
Barney, you are misrepresenting truth (lying) throughout this thread.
Back in the Old West –+ when John Wayne lived — calling someone a liar usually resulted in that person getting shot. You’re lucky I don’t own a gun.
Pay attention. I said that bb UNNECESSARILY injected Bible verses into posts, out of the blue, where the context of the conversation did NOT warrant it.
Here, in my case, we are talking about the 9th Commandment! Therefore, quoting Scripture is reasonable, and warranted.
I do NOT troll. I challenge peoples beliefs, and assumptions.
I do not blame God for ANYTHING regarding events in my life. I realize He doesn’t give a rat’s ass about my insignificant existence. I’m OK with that.
Coming from an admitted liar and bullshit artist, Ill take that with a grain of salt.
When you challenge someones beliefs ad nauseam – thats trolling but you know that, just more lies,lies lies.
John Wayne was a fucking actor , he didnt live “back in the old west” you fucking genius, or did you think those movies were documentaries shot in the 1800s?
Im shitting my pants glad you dont own a gun you …..oh never mind. You just bragged about being a lying bullshit artist but you would like to shoot me for agreeing? You aint half as smart as you think you are Mr keyboard warrior.
Quoting scripture is only relevant when you think it is?
“The stupid it burns white hot”
Dude get some blood work done, that fatty liver doent seem to be filtering the amonia out of your blood.
“I realize he doesnt give a rats ass about my insignificant existence. Im OK with that” At least we both agree God is REAL, Ill take that as a win.
Actually, none of them are possible to keep. Christ reminded us that if we so much as think one of them, we are guilty of violation. He also said if we break any one law, we are guilty of the whole bunch. Oops.
But that is the purpose of the law, don’t you see? We are unable to be moral creatures on our own no matter how hard we try. We have to have spiritual regeneration before we can even begin to live in truth, and even then we will have daily reminders that we have a ways to go.
To your questions: I don’t recall being disciplined for lying as a kid. I was a compliant type (does that surprise you?). I do remember being subject to some memorable corporal punishment for other things, though.
My own kids were only spanked for direct defiance, and it didn’t need to happen often. Lying was taught to be a betrayal of trust, not acceptable within the family circle at any time. Santa was fun pretend, not a lie. If a lie was discovered, the consequence was related if possible. Example: Did you empty the bathroom trash cans as I asked? Yes, replies the child. I discover otherwise and therefore child will now need to empty all the trash cans and wash and dry them all. No lecture delivered, just a friendly reminder that we don’t tell lies around here.
“He also said if we break any one law, we are guilty of the whole bunch. Oops. But that is the purpose of the law, don’t you see …”
Spiritual lessons aside …
You go to court cuz some copfuk gave you a summons for jaywalking. The judge finds you guilty. Then he sentences you to life in prison. “Why??’ you cry out. He says, “By breaking one law, you broke them ALL!”
What would people say about such a Judge? They would find him evil, UNjust, not worthy to judge but worthy of disbarment. He would be rejected and scorned.
But, when God judges in such manner few question it.
Nice one.
“Actually, none of them are possible to keep.”
Theoretically true …. because of the Jimmy Carter clause who committed adultery in his heart
Thoughts are but originated as electrical impulsrs originated by synapses firing. It is not a physical thing .. although some are stored in gray matter, and the vast majority are lost forevet. Or, at least inaccessible. We have thousands of thoughts each and very day. Millions or billions over our lifetime. Then we die, and our thoughts die also, unless thoughts are eternal, somehow able to survive without blood and oxygen … residing who knows where, somewhere in the ethet. Multiply that by the billions who have walked this planet, and the number of thoughts is a number too large to contemplate. Yet, if I once had a single thought once of killing someone, God knows about it. That’s some amazing shit!!!
I digressed!
I’ve never killed anyone. Likely never will. Most or many humans never kill, and never will. It’s very possible to not break that Commandment. Again, discarding the thinking-about-it aspect.
Stucky I’m surprised a Bible scholar like you doesn’t grasp this major tenet of Christian theology. Go read Romans 6-8 again. Paul explains it better than I can.
Beating false witness is a specific type of lying, purgery
If I were to read #9 as written, most of your examples of lying in your intro/question would not apply (obfuscation, omission etc).
What if #9 means what it says? Don’t lie about another person. Just a thought but that would be pretty easy to keep for most people as this could be paraphrased as “don’t gossip” ( most men at least).
As the Bible teaches us that only God knows the true heart of a person, I tend to lean more toward the “intent” angle of this commandment as some omissions, obfuscations and limiting of known info may cause hurt or harm.
PS: was that TIME magazine piece written about disciplining a 2 or 3 year old? If so it makes some sense. If it was written for older kids of 6+ then most kids I know that age would see right through that thinly-veiled psychology crap.
It makes no distinction.
Here is the article.
http://time.com/4989061/why-you-shouldnt-punish-kids-for-lying/
Well, Stucky commits adultery every time he has a private time with Rose E. Palm. #7 because if you lust after someone other than your marital helpmeet, Stucky, you commit adultery.
Even if she buys you the no hands machine. You are in a paradox. A conundrum of Babbelonian proportion.
Commandment #9 doesn’t deal with lying in general but only with its specific wording – bringing false testimony against a “neighbor” (i.e. it’s concerned w/intra-tribal relations). There are numerous examples in the Old Testament of “God-sanctioned” lies told to “enemies” and “others”. The argument can also be made that, defining “to covet” as “to desire eagerly” (Compact Ed. OED), the behavior w/which the commandment is concerned is the “eagerness” of the desire -which can lead to hasty or unwise actions. Certainly no one would argue that the God of the OT was instructing his followers not to desire material possessions (particularly if they happened to belong to a militarily “weaker” entity).
My kids got the “neck pinch”if they misbehaved in public. Did not happen often. Just pinch/squeeze the muscle above the shoulder next to the next to the neck. They did not like that. Lot less visible than smacking them on the butt, but equally as effective.
Works for bossy wives, too. I recommend you all try it!
Llpoh, isn’t that the Vulcan Death Grip? My mom was good at that. It hurt like hell!
M – yes, very similar. I think a teacher showed it to us long ago. Said it was effective, left no marks, hard for casual observers to really see what was happening. My kids do not remember the experience fondly. Well, they should have behaved better in public. Kids sometimes think that in public they can get away with stuff. Nope, not on my watch.A couple good doses of the death grip and they got the message permanent like.
Stucky – You have hit on a topic that affects me to this day.
My mom considered lying a capitol sin – right up there with murder. And she pretty much beat that into my head.
I won’t say that I never lie. I don’t think that’s possible among us mortals. I will say that I never lie when it counts.
If the wife would ask me, “Does this dress make me look fat?” I would answer, “Oh no dear, you look just fine” regardless of what I thought. Partly to be nice, but mostly because I didn’t want to have to sleep in the garage that night.
I don’t have any two-legged kids so I can’t answer your second question.
The third question is partly answered by the first. Teach them not to lie when it counts…
That’s my take on it anyway.
Steve C.
Spring, Texas
Children do not develop the ability to reason until around age 7 (lower IQ takes longer) so until then it is strictly carrot and stick. Whether the carrot or the stick works better depends on the temperament of the child, with girls socializing more readily than boys. For me, it was the big stick mostly administered by my mother and for the serious offenses, my father. Of my four younger sisters only one required the stick. For the other three a stern word was enough to bring out the tears.
Of my two daughters, for the first there was not a big enough stick and the younger required no stick at all. As a result, the first had a very difficult life until her late 20’s. She is in recovery now, has a great life and an amazing daughter of her own (no stick needed for this one) and I am half way hoping she gets a boy like her father – it would serve her right.
Truthfulness is like loyalty, it is not owed to all. The Boy Scouts help me understand my duty to tell the truth. It has always been ok, even necessary, to lie to the bad guys. In my family you don’t get white lies. If you ask “does this make me look whatever”, you get the truth because you owe this duty to the ones you love. You don’t do anyone you care about any favors by lying.
On the other hand, Santa is alive and well. When they are young enough to experience the awe and wonder of Christmas then Santa is part of what supplies it. When the get older they become Santa’s helpers for those still young enough to feel the magic.
Q1: How were YOU raised regarding lying … and was it effective?
A: One time when I was about 8, I lied about something the kids across the street DIDN’T do.
My dad called the neighbor to tell them to watch him whip me on our front step. Effective? Check!
Q2: Do you raise your children the same, or differently … and was it effective?
A: My wife and I are lucky to have raised a very straight kid, the one or two times I tried to administer corporal punishment (not for lying), my hand slowed to a near stop as it neared his rear end. That was after the one time I DID smack his young ass hard enough it left it red. That was the end of that.
Q3: Realistically, isn’t it virtually impossible to NOT lie? If so, why even attempt to teach your kids to keep the 9th commanment? Isn’t it hypocritical, and just setting them up for failure by imposing unreachable demands?
A: I don’t think it’s impossible, no.
I was raised old school, not old school Bible thumping, old school where if you give your word it is your bond. In real life if I say I will do something , you can count on it. Straight as a arrow in business.
Do I tell little white lies….yes. Everyone does.
I would rather tell a lie than hurt feelings in some cases. I also think it impossible to live a lifetime and not tell some whoppers and some little white lies. I will also lie about knowledge of certain things in order to steer clear of situations. I am human.
My children are honorable people, I think we raised them well. They were raised to be honest and truthful. They told some pretty good ones as small children. Who didn’t?
“Do I tell little white lies….yes. Everyone does.”
White lies …. a qualified euphemism …. for lying.
Does make one feel better, though, to believe ya only told a “white lie” as opposed to saying “I just told a fucking LIE!” … doesn’t it?
I am as guilty as anyone else. Everyone does do it.
Stucky, I gave a HONEST answer. heh
Anyone in this thread who says they don’t lie is lying, everyone tells small lies and YES that is still lying. We have all fallen short of the grace of Gawd. But guess what, WE ain’t God, WE is human and I don’t expect humans to be perfection in any way. That is really my point, we are not and never will be perfect creatures.
I was thinking about this off and on today while riding the ATV around the place saying hello to all my woodland friends while my cousin and husband were waiting in the blind, tree stand or on my front porch to kill one or more of them. I didn’t know for sure that the animals had actually gotten used to Nick and I riding around this place to do what we do, which is what we want to do. Gather firewood, clear some deadfall, haul out the flattest of the river rocks around the old campsites on that dry creekbed that may very well be hiding another Civil War campground since Pilot Knob is rather close to this piece of ground sitting here unloved and unfarmed since Missouri became a state. I almost thought I saw a bayonet embedded in a piece of petrified wood in one of the old riverbeds. I need to read up a bit on old technology to really determine the historical era those sites represent. They could represent all the damn poachers who’ve gotten used to hunting this ground whenever they want.
I write stories. I’m pretty darned good at it. My cousin’s name is not Artemis, you dumb Acme-supporting slave. Not one thing you tried from them works, yet you buy that crap again and again. Why was your government making deals with Uncle Sam in the first place?
So, having learned the art of tumbling in and out of character when I write, I am designing a new kind of written story. You TBP Monkeys play interesting roles at times. For instance, when I was messing around figuring out the whole pictures to png or jpeg only business I stumbled upon some of the best sources for Animal Photos that I have since seen as Memes, but saw on that Canadian forum of scientifical intellectual dudes I stumbled onto first. I was their Maggie who was quite an interesting specimen of Yankee Hick and I could read along with their high-minded discussion and prompt with observations and questions many of them would answer. A couple still leave messages for me in my inbox there.
So, one of those photos I found there was a photo of a bear literally shitting in the woods. I came upon several large piles of shit recently released on the third corner of our little kingdom, the one I refer to as the treehouse when riding at dawn to see who I could awaken. In my imagination, that bear a few people had seen on their deer cams here and there was in my woods there. I opted to err on the side of coward to bypass the treeline and go on back to the log home hypotenuse. Did I really want to follow a bearshit trail? Really? I could understand jumping in if there were other shitflingers there, but to follow the bear itself?
Later, in full light, I realized it was horse piles and so I avoided a poacher probably with a 30 ought similar to mine back at the house. Is when I remembered I have a little friend who needs to be in my pocket. Berretta rides with me now for the other kind of varmint.
Now, all of that happened but is it a lie to anthropomorphize the bear?
When someone recently asked me how I felt about a police officer getting off scott-free for having assaulted me when he forcefully removed me from a public meeting when I raised my hand to ask a question, I could only answer that my faith was totally shattered because I learned that people lie under oath. Which he did.
To me, this is the ultimate lie. I am forever changed.
Q1 – I always told the truth when I got caught. My parents were good to me and I did not want to dishonor them further with falsehoods. However, if I didn’t get caught, and wasn’t asked, then it didn’t happen. With my dad the punishment was corporeal; as in a round stick to the back of the thighs. It was effective. I rarely got caught.
Q2 – With my own offspring, I defined a lie as an untruth designed to either prevent them from being accountable – or – to make themselves appear better than what they were (including deceit designed to make them seem “cool” to their peers). In other words, motive was the determining factor. Defining lies this way also covered my own ass regarding Santa Claus and when my wife asked if I liked her new vegen broccoli casserole recipe.
My kids were rewarded for truth and suffered real consequences for dishonesty. It was effective. They are doing well today.
Q3 – I believe it is possible to not lie, if lying is defined by avoiding accountability to others or exaggerating one’s own merit. But in a bullshit world, little white lies are often necessary to protect the feelings of others. After all, we can’t all go through life like Andrew Dice Clay. Other lies, like Santa, are akin to “kidding” in my opinion.
Does being less than completely truthful to spare someone’s feelings (not to protect myself in some way) fall under the parameters of “bearing false witness against your neighbor”?
Bearing false witness FOR your neighbor
I believe that is also called “tact”.
” … if lying is defined by avoiding accountability to others or exaggerating one’s own merit.”
That’s a pretty narrow definition, dontchya think?
There’s a reason I included that “Absolute Truth” graphic. Anything not Absolute Truth … is a lie.
The number of ways to avoid accountability and/or exaggerate one’s own merit are multitudinous. Far from being a narrow definition. When it came to raising my own pups, ignorance was allowed as an excuse early on. Progress, not perfection, was the goal. Absolute Truth in a bullshit world is a path to martyrdom. By setting reasonable expectations for kids, they would quite often live up to them.
My experience was that telling the truth never gets believed. In order to avoid being punished for “lying” the best answer is to lie about everything.
A stupid long Machiavellian game where I tease out what the other side wants to hear, then say that.
I’m going to confess a deep dark Sin .I have been holding on to this for 50 years of my 56 on Earth.Way back in the mid 60s I discovered Fire or better yet Matches .One bright sun shining day I was playing with my Matches.I was in a field of tall brown grass.Before I knew it the whole field was on fire .Just like something you see in a Hollywood movie.My Dad ,his brothers and the next door neighbor became fire fighters.I Remember my dad asking me if I knew how it started.I lied.I Never told my dad or anyone else the truth about how that fire started.This is the first time I have ever told the truth about that fire which could have burned the house down.
Well I am glad you got that off your chest. It’s just possible Dad knew it was you but figured you had learned your lesson well enough.
Awesome,bb!
Unfortunately, the statute of limitations has not expired. I will be calling the Chatham Police. Expect a visit soon … if the dumbfuks can find you.
Your only hope of Redemption — in this life, and the next — is to make immediate RESTITUTION! Your soul depends on it. Mere confession, while admirable, will not cleanse you. Send some MONEY to the owner of that field. Now! And you shall be forgiven.
Now what was those questions ???
It appears that ole beebs needs a little redemption…
When my oldest two boys were around 7 and 9 yeas old, we were traditional parents with the Christmas stuff. I got to thinking, you know, we tell these kids about Santa Claus, the Eater Bunny and Jesus Christ. In a few short years they are going to figure out that mom and dad lied to them about SC and the EB—I bet they also lied about that Jesus guy too. Well needless to say the Christmas/Easter tradition was over (although our Christmas tree did find a new home in the church we were attending at the time.)
Did it do any good? I don’t know. Both sons did tell us later as adults how they appreciated us having the courage to do that for them (both sides of the family plus friends and neighbors thought we had lost it.) We never relented and still hold our ground 40+ years later even with grand children. One son is married with children and has to go along to get along with the in-laws.
We may be SOB’s and MF’s about some things but we do not lie about Santa and EB.
The Eater Bunny sounds really scary.
Ha! The EATER BUNNY sounds like a ripe candidate to have its testicles canned by Maggie.
We respect the Holidays of our animals here in Narnia, but we just don’t kill them or eat them on those special days. That’s what Thanksgiving Season is for: Venison gathering.
Artemis was my Greek choice, Me Hoe. Now that you said it out loud, I like Diana too. She’s dark blonde and hazel eyed… a gorgeous cleanup job for the photos on her all girl country band of the 80s, which brings me back to the “why she didn’t make it and the others did” questions Nick and I discussed about her after she entertained us during the evening while our beer-swilling neighbors were visiting, but this year I did the Holly Hunter thing from Raising Arizona and told them to stay away we was having “decent” people over.
Is extreme hyperbole a lie?
Interesting thoughts and musings on here today.
Good for you, Unreconstructed!
We never, not once, told our kids about Santa or The Bunny …. except to tell them they were pure fabrications. Just as your kids, they appreciate it to this day. They don’t feel like they missed out on anything.
I rarely lied to my parents growing up mostly because I was so lousy at it. I’m still a terrible liar today. It feels unnatural and foreign for me to lie to someone. Actually, it was a shock to me as I grew up when I learned how much other people could blatantly lie with ease. I always assumed because I avoided intentionally lying to people that other people did too. Oh boy, was I wrong.
My brother though was a huge fibber and still is today.
I think it’s impossible to not lie. While some people will avoid tell big whoppers they’ll still lie to be nice or polite. Quite frankly, I’d rather deal with someone who was purposely lying to be manipulative than deal with a “nice” person lying. They seem to do more damage in the long run.
I had to learn the hard way about liars too. When you try to be honest, you think everybody else shares this value. Painful lessons.
The “perfect” is the enemy of the good.
Pursue the beast too closely and you become the beast.
In elementary school years, I learned to tell the truth because I sucked at lying. Even since then I have never been good at poker.
I think it was in third grade. My sister was two years older than me. We attended this wonderful old three story brick schoolhouse built in 1905. We walked home, about four blocks away through a park of oak and douglas fir trails.
The thing you need to know is that my older sister, by two years, was fucking Mary Poppins (practically perfect in every way). All of her fucking teachers loved her and she pleased them all. So, two years later when her younger brother came along they expected the same thing. Right.
I had a shitty report card in third grade. I don’t remember what it was but it certainly wasn’t the expected straight A’s of St. Laurie. I wadded the fucker up and tossed it to the squirrels.
Well fuck me, guess who comes around later and sees a wadded up piece of paper on the ground (please, there had to be lots of that shit around some garbage can), picks it up, opens it up and finds that it is her brother’s report card! Never were there ever a Nazi brownshirt who was more enthusiastic about reporting the location of some Jew to the authorities.
I don’t even remember what my punishment was. The lesson I learned is that I cannot get away with shit.
Sounds like your seester is one of them dirty rotten Joos.
My daughter was about 9 months old when I caught her eating the dog’s food. She already understood that it was off limits. I asked her what she had and she looked away demurely. So, I went over and took two pieces of dog food out of her mouth. She looked way again, smiling and started to scoot away. I could tell she thought she was getting away with something so I re-checked her mouth…sure enough she had a third piece tucked away in the back of her cheek. Yes, we learn to deceive very young. Fortunately, we are very bad at it unless we practice, practice, practice. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.
My parents hardly ever used ANY punishment on me…except disappointment. It is a powerfultool, because I am honest to a fault. That said, of course I lie, in the strictest sense (obscure, spin, hidden truths, half-truths, etc.)…but, like Steve C. says above, not when it counts.
Oh, yes..I have been loathe to bring it up again, but I have done considerable research and only bolstered my position that 6 Apollo missions successfully landed men on the surface of the moon. I can mathematically punch holes in any scientific queries (particularly VARBs, which is the sticking point for most–math is very clear and well understood). Valid moon rocks cannot be faked, period (rocks can’t lie and neither can mass spectrometers, scanning electron microscopes nor cosmic rays). That there are fakes out there has never been in question. Laser retro-reflectors are always ignored in hoax theories as well (used to this day by state agencies and amateurs around the world). But, of course, anyone can argue that probes brought back all the rocks and put up the reflectors, but then again that would hardly be less complex once the VARB questions are dealt with. I would be happy to present evidence as I see it to anyone who cared and could listen with an open mind.
I lost a little sleep for three consecutive nights thinking about whether to bother bringing my findings up. I really have no interest in further arguments/discussions/shitfests on this topic. However, on the third night a completely new idea came to me:
Has anyone ever considered that Apollo 11 (and let’s face it, this is the only one that matters) was BOTH faked and real? Everyone concedes that the faked film would have to have been shot before the mission, right? Most likely quite a while before the mission. What if they were not sure any of it would actually work until the 11th hour, so they shot fake footage as a contingency plan. If there’s one thing that engineers, scientists, bureaucrats, politicians and pathological liars (redundant?) ALL like it is a contingency plan.
Yeah! A moon post!!
Lemme tell you something. The whole enchilada is FAKE!! Faker than Dolly Parton’s tits. We landed on the moon?? Yeah, riiiight! I’m so fucken tired of these damned lies!
Good Lawd Almighty. I feel cleansed!!
Shot I forgot about TPB’s 9th commandment: thou shalt not hijack threads.
Just getting something off my mind whilst laying in bed last night.
DUD
You are soooo full of shit, please take a laxative before you explode and shit up the whole site. You do not have maff that proves any such thing. Good Lord.
You don’t have a clue.
A laxative is the LAST thing I need. It is a laxative this will explode my ass!
Don’t you mean the opposite? Something that will KEEP my ass from exploding.?White bread seems to clog up my ass. Send me a loaf of Wonder Bread. Mmm kay?
NO Stucky….you don’t have a clue. DRUD (DUD) claims to have maff that proves that we landed on the moon. HE is totally full of shit per usual, he needs to take a laxative.
My Christian Zionist friend says matzah balls takes care of that.
Hi Maggie!
Do canned rabbit balls have a similar effect? If so, send a case to DUD who is soooo full of shit his blue eyes turned brown.
BL
Go fuck yourself.
I have NO REASON to lie about your bullshit 67mpg claim.
You are the one full of shit. I’m starting to not like you. Again.
Asshole.
You don’t read for comprehension well. The math is clear that the Shielding of the Apollo capsule was sufficient to protect the astronauts from the radiation in the Van Allen belts.
Says you. That is right up there with the time Stucky had a maff formula that proved it is impossible to get more than 67MPG in a automobile, until I posted a video of the VW X-1 that gets in excess of 200MPG.
Wait……Is Stucky and DRUD one in the same?
You lie!
I NEVER posted such a formula. I wouldn’t even know where to begin in “proving” a car can’t get more than 67mpg!
To your response below: No, I did not! It is up to you, The Accuser, to PROVE it. As I said, I wouldn’t even know where to begin doing the maff for such a claim.
Also, I don’t give a shit about how far a car can go on a gallon of gas.
OMG, don’t deny it Stucky, YES YOU DID. I am sure there are peeps here who remember that happening. On my mother’s grave and my hand on 400 Bibles….yes you did.
I’m sure you remember this video from that shit fest.
Like I’ve said before, maybe we did go there.
Like I’ve said just as often, I don’t believe liars.
You see my conundrum?
I get it. The larger issue is about the nature of liars. It would be nice if you could always count on liars to be lying and simply believe the opposite, but that’s not the way it works…liars mix in large amounts of truth all the time to make their own unique bullshit stew.
Same here. My parents we exceptionally kind and good humored people, and I don’t remember ever getting hit. The worst was was the look of disappointment from my mother, usually spurred by some unkindness on our part. I remember making fun off some guy in my class because he always wore the same clothes, and this brought a look from my mother, and the comment.”Well, maybe they don’t have a lot of money.” That is literally the worst thing I remember, although I think my 7 sisters posed more problems for my mother than I did. I had cousins who were hit by their parents, and some haven’t fared too well.
Lying is a form of cowardice. It takes courage to tell the truth, especially in this ‘current year’ where the truth is all but outlawed.
The fact that our societies are so fundamentally dishonest is one of the major reasons we’re in such a pickle. When even our ‘money’ is dishonest, it’s easy to see we’re on the road to catastrophe. If society demanded honesty, the murder of JFK would not be a mystery and the perpetrators would have been brought to justice. Likewise 911 and all the other ‘false flags’. Certainly, the holohoax scam wouldn’t be possible.
At least, if we’re accepting of dishonesty being par for the course, we could be honest about it.
The world would be a better place for it.
In an age of deceit telling a or the truth is a revolutionary act!
Be a revolutionary: tell the truth!
EXCEPT when:
1
2
3
4
………………………..
1. My father beat me severely for lying. As I grew older I saw numerous instances where he lied and the profound hypocrisy was not lost on me. HOWEVER, as an adult, I am actually a very honest man. I don’t really know if it was the severe beatings, but the damage caused to the relationship between me and my dad was not worth the price.
2. I was far more moderate with my children, using corporal punishment more liberally with the first four and much less with the last two. Of the first four, two lie unnecessarily. The other two will lie when the consequences of telling the truth are dire. My last two children are very honest, willing to tell the truth even the consequences are severe.
3. My 60 years of experience in life has taught me that yes, pretty much everybody lies. The real question is whether your are an honest person. Honest people really don’t like lying and will take great care to avoid being in situations where lying feels necessary. Dishonest people don’t seem to feel badly about lying, so they do, even if there isn’t any real cost to telling the truth.
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Too late for the scary picture HSF. Halloween was two weeks ago.
Steve C.
Spring, Texas
She really does say it all about lying, doesn’t she? She says it works, shut the hell up, I’m better and smarter than you and get out of my sight you filthy woman who decided being a real woman was awesome too (because doesn’t like women like myself or missus hsf who think what we’re doing here is pretty empowering just ask Artemis)
That she is announcing her contract renewal with Satan to run for president again shows she really has sold her soul to rule the world.
I really do come up with some good ones when I wake up and come down to let Nick know he fell asleep on the couch again.
“Mommie, if I’m a good boy, will Santa bring me a bicycle this year?”
“Yes!”
Spin spin spin. Justify justify justify. But, it’s a fucking LIE! You lied to your child. You deny it because truth is painful.
You might say it’s just a fun tradition. Harmless. In other words, you are defending the original lie by covering it up with yet more lies. Caught in the vortex of a whirlpool of lies sucking you ever deeper into Bizzaro world, where …. seil era hturt . Where does it lead? Your children will tell the same lie to your grandchildren!! The Lie is alive, feeding on itself, corrupting YOUR lineage for ages to come.
Do not be angry with me. I speak to none in particular, and to all in general.
As this Christmas season approaches, make it one of truth. Start a new tradition ; that Jesus is THE ONLY REASON for the season!
Send that SOB Santa back to hell, where he belongs.
Stuck, Santa is a trick of the joos. Santa is SATAN with the letters rearranged.
Fukkin Joos!
Stuck – You definitely belong on the “Naughty” List.
I think it was here on TBP someone said when they see a child misbehaving in the grocery store or wally world, they bend over and tell the brat.”I’m telling Santa if you don’t stop”…
I was raised with the Spock book under my parents arm, until one day I lost my pacifier. Holy hell broke loose as my parents tried nicely, to stop my crying; even going out in the middle of the night to buy many colored pacifiers and boil them in water to soften them; to try to make me happy.
Finally at 1 or 2 in the morning (sorry, I don’t remember), my dad had enough and I got spanked, mom said I didn’t cry as I just stared in dis belief, then after a few wimpers, went to sleep.
The book went into the trash and my discipline took a whole different from that day forward, never abusive, but I did carry a healthy fear of retribution that kept me on the straight and narrow for the rest of my life.
My kid is raised in love, for she knows the truth is something very important to me; kudos when she does and my cold eye when she doesn’t.
Physical punishment? An old saying goes “there are as many temperaments as there are colors in the world”.
Okay, I just made that up, but it’s true, each kid has his or her own level of stubbornness and it’s the parents job to tame that to teach them that they aren’t the center of the universe. Each kids breaking point is unique and there is no book out there that will tell you how it’s done; just a parents intuition and a little common sense wrapped up in loving the little rug rat.
You can remember all the way back to when you sucked on a pacifier??
Wow, my memory doesn’t even come close to going back that far.
Then again, maybe you were still on the pacifier when you were a teenager?
Wow, a reply from the Stuckmeister, I am not worthy!
Mom’s perspective, but a fun story to tell.
Maybe a good next QOTD: “When was the last time you sucked on a
….pacifier”?
You are, and have been, and ALWAYS will be worthy, my son.
Stucky, you may like this one. When I was 3 or 4, and most likely being a mischievous kid, maybe for lying, my mother gave me an enema. It once was an accepted way to discipline a child or improve their disposition. I guess the rationale was to rid the bad behaviors contained within? All I know is it was a seminal moment in my life.
Before my brothers and I placed her in an assisted living facility, she stayed with me for much of a year. I found her values instilled in me resurface as anger, for her demented behaviors and ability to hit three carpets with feces trickling from her pajamas, as she tried to make it to the bathroom.
I don’t know what percentage of your far-fetched fantastical flinging of fakery is fodder for fickle fools vs fabulous features for fine folks of TBP.
I suspect you’re stories are 95% bullshit. This makes it hard to “like” your stories.
“I suspect you’re stories are 95% bullshit.””
Which places you smack dab in the middle of “The Usual Suspects”
the usual suspects is among my favorite movies, along with American Beauty, both featuring Kevin Spacey. A quick word for him. If you flop it out to my kid, or reach down his pants, Keyser Söze will be the least of your worries.
And for your entertainment, if you are capable of that; is a clip from my favorite movie, possible the greatest one ever, with you as Bogey and _______ as the Nazi. Me, I am Victor Laszlo…
Greatest ever – no question.
BTW – If it helps you can look at “Santa” as one of Jesus’ angelic assistants.
“Greatest ever – no question”
It is serendipitous that CBS Sunday Morning had a bit on the movie this morning celebrating a 75th anniversary of the most beloved movies from hollywood. I usually bide my Sundays watching the show, at least before TBP became my favorite distraction and entertainment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMNd8848vlc&t=184s
Archaeologists believe that they have the grave of the original St Nicholas in Turkey,if memory serves me right.
The most common human lie is lying to yourself.
It is absolutely possible not to lie. Rule number one, don’t do things that would compel you to lie. Rule number 2, everyone is not entitled to know all that there is to know about you. Tell them that. Rule number 3, stay away from prying busy bodies. Don’t talk to them.
I saw that you wrote an article about going to church. What’s the point if you are intending to keep on lying, and rationalizing It?
It’s kind of like the mafia, that go to church religiously, but totally fail to comprehend religion, to a lesser degree of course, but I think that you get the point.
I had read somewhere, I think maybe from Paul Craig Roberts, that it takes a long time to build trust, but it only takes one second to destroy it.
If you don’t feel compelled to be truthful, for truths sake, how about for the sake of your reputation and credibility?
“It is absolutely possible not to lie.”
Only in your fantasies. So, you have never, ever, not once in your life told one lie? If you say, “yes”, then everyone will know you are a liar.
Now, multiply that by 7 billion people who also MUST admit that at some point in their lives, they lied. Do you know how to calculate percentages? I’m getting 0% of people who never lied. Ergo, not lying is impossible.
————–
“I saw that you wrote an article about going to church.”
I wrote no such thing.
—————
“If you don’t feel compelled to be truthful, for truths sake, how about for the sake of your reputation and credibility?”
My reputation and credibility are none of your concern.
One last thing, Andrea …… Blow Me!!
I didn’t say that I have never told a lie. I have stopped lying completely. You can too. I said that it is possible not to lie. I have told 1 lie since April of 2014. I regret that i didn’t tell the busy body to mind their own damned business. It bothers me that i lied. It’s called guilt, and it is something desparetly lacking in our society. Guilt prevents people from doing dishonest and amoral things. Hillary Clinton is a perfect example, and I am sure that she tells herself the same things that you are telling yourself. Lying allows people to commit dishonest and amoral acts. If you are arguing for a more corrupt world, I am sure that the Clintons will cheer you on.
I will say lied once since April of 2014, in order to prevent any confusion, since writing is non verbal.
“Misery lives company. Enjoy your corrupt world.”
I will.
Enjoy your Fantasy Land, you Phucken Pharisee.
Seriously, your verbal assaults are quite remarkable against people who have decided to live an honest life. It’s almost as if you’ve been possessed by the devil, really.
Soooo, you haven’t told ANY kind of lie in almost 4 year … not even a white lie?
BULLSHIT !!
Self-righteous twit.
Yes! I am arguing for a more corrupt world. I got caught! You’re a regular fucken Sherlock Holmes.
With God as my witness. It’s not bullshit. Misery lives company. Enjoy your corrupt world.
Disappointed.
Where are The Racoons responses? Did I not accuse them of being the source of The Greatest Lie Ever Told?
Recently, my little one owned up to breaking something nice my spouse brought back from a business trip. They were planning on gifting it to someone else and it was sitting on a side table. Little one broke it, the damage was found, and they approached me to admit they did it unprompted. I was so proud in that moment of their honesty and forthrightness, I punished them, explained why (I always make a point to look them in the eye and explain it), and gave them a hug and an I love you. I then got out a piece of chocolate. Then, I broke it in half and gave them half, telling them they still did something wrong, so I was taking the other half, but I was very proud of them. I think that was more appropriate than raining down hellfire from 20,000 feet.
My mom was visiting me recently and told me she thought we were much better parents than she was because we punish and get down low so we can see eye-to-eye and explain why and hug on it.
I have not seen another raccoon on our land since the real deer season (rifle) opened Saturday morning. The raccoons are high up in trees or way inside a hollow tree.
This is a fabulous year for us, TBP passersbyonthesite. Is an interesting paradigm shift to look through a number of your perspectives in the eclectic mix of viewpoints I see in the membership of this commenting group. I have always admired Admin’s ability to see the diamond in the rough, or at least an interesting looking rock amongst the stones.
I’m all hepped up on the hunt, guys. I am having the time of my 55 year old life with my cousin from childhood. She’s hunting deer; I’m taking care of rabbits. Same same. Fifty-fifty.
A co-worker, whom I liked, used to say, “why tell the truth if a lie is sufficient”. At least he was being truthful. Right?
Looking over this thread I notice that someone is missing…..Oh, it’s Starfcker the lying Doggy Doppelganger who is soon to be dead meat.
Total WAR Star……..total war!!!!!!
I’m going to say something here you are either going to really agree with or you are going to hate.
It depends upon the perpective of the child when the lie is concocted and for what purpose.
My cousin has gone home to get ready for a work week. She and I are the same age. We discovered a really strange set of issues about our mothers through investigative analysis of one another’s memories and discoveries.
Our mothers were two of the five girls born to my hillbilly grandmother Granny Fanny, who had married her first cousin of Irish descent and they had settled onto a share of land in the newly opened farmland in Southeast Missouri, formerly swampland. Apparently there was an uncle who used to visit and make the girls do things with him. We seem to have come out pretty normal, except that we now wonder why the hell our Granny Fanny didn’t kick that uncle’s ass and tell him to keep his nasty hands to himself? And if not our grandmother, then what about their brothers? There was another half dozen of them in that two room shanty they lived in before the sharecroppers got completely screwed over.
I believe honesty is important, but I also believe there are some grey areas where honesty isn’t always important. For instance, if you were married and your wife asked if her butt looked big, would you tell her? Every time? Or if dinner was bad or too salty or too bland, would you tell her? (I just add my own spices or sauce, but that’s me.) If your kid asked you if Santa Claus was real, would you tell him? My dad strongly disagreed with me on that one-he thought it was more important to preserve a sense of fantasy and imagination. Are the tooth fairy and easter bunny real? If you’re a government person who works on classified information, and someone asks you a question you have direct knowledge about, would you tell them the unvarnished classified truth? What about if your friend asks you a deeply personal question and you don’t feel they can handle the truth of the actual answer? I’ve known some folks who were just plain too brittle to handle unvarnished truth.
And the kids thing-what do you say when your kid says something in public, like “Mommy, look at that fat man!” Do you tell them not to make factual statements like that one?
My father kept his cancer from me until I came back from a deployment, rather than tell me while I was still overseas. Was he lying by omission, or was he trying to help me get over my own problems?
This is a fascinating look at Game of Thrones in which the narrator points out how the key to surviving in Westeros is the ability to adapt. He contrasts that adaptability for survival with Lord Stark, who is famously beheaded for being too rigid in his honor.
Sometimes, it doesn’t pay to tell the truth or all the truth. If that makes me a liar, then so be it.
Since this is about lying,I’ll put it here.
A Rasmussen poll.
Only 54% of Democratic voters believe that Hillary beat Bernie in a fair contest,other groups far lower.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/november_2017/just_32_think_hillary_clinton_won_democratic_nomination_fairly
What do you think about Saudi Arabia’s new alliance with China? Do you think it interesting that Saker puts out an article about the delusions Americans have about their military superiority?
And, how many people realize the friendship between the Clinton Foundation future flimflam show and the recent Secretary of State’s run for the Presidency were born in those huge work complexes that all the US Defense Contractors built out there in the Riyadh suburbs for that Bandar guy?