Since I watched the video of the Arizona cop shooting the man in the motel hallway, I’ve thought of little else. It’s obvious (to me) that the man was murdered. Further, it’s also obvious to me that police today, are little more than psychopathic thugs who get off on abusing their power. OK, maybe that’s an oversimplification. But not entirely far from the truth. Mark Passio’s work at www.whatonearthishappening.com has greatly influenced my thoughts on this. Give his podcasts a listen, if you haven’t already.
I think the question many of us have is, “What can I do about it?” (And, “it” meaning any current situation where we, the little people, feel helpless) In this case, the man was killed over a year ago, in Mesa, AZ. But, there IS something I can do, and I’ve been formulating a plan. I’m asking for TBP to chime in and help me out.
Yesterday, I posted a group of links with contact information for relevant groups in Arizona, from the local Mesa, AZ police station, all the way up to a petition at the White House to investigate the incident. My plan, such as it is, is to begin calling those folks in the seats of power and begin to ask them some tough questions about the incident.
Here’s where you come in. I’m not an investigative journalist. I’m a construction superintendent that’s between gigs right now. I have some thoughts as to the kids of questions I might ask, but not entirely sure how to perform an interview over the phone.
At first I was so damn angry, I thought I might call and ask things like, “How does if feel to support and protect a murderous thug?” That might feel good, temporarily, but won’t buy me much phone time. I’m looking for some suggestions for some tough, but fair questions. So far, I’m thinking about things like:
What did the young man have engraved on the side of his gun? Is that approved policy? Why was that dismissed in the court?
It’s my understanding that the young man’s father is in charge at the department of investigative affairs. Is that true?
Does he still work for the police depart? What was his rating on dismissal?
Did he have previous military experience?
It seems to me that the orders he gave Daniel Shaver were very complicated. Is that standard procedure for the department?
How many officers were on the call at that time? Was Mr. Brailsford the officer calling out the orders to Mr. Shaver? What is the current status of the other officers?
Things like that. I’m looking into voice recording apps that I can record the conversations, like vocaroo. I don’t have a platform, outside of this, The Burning Platform, to post any of my findings. I’ve even toyed with creating a legitimate movement, White Lives Matter. If a movement like gains any traction whatsoever, it’ll torque off the media so much, they’d be forced to cover it. [I just checked Facebook. There are a couple of (very) small WLM groups]
I’d like your feedback on questions I can ask, and how I should structure them. I’m asking that you leave out words and phrases like “murder” “thug” “murderous thug” “psychopath” and the like, for reasons I mentioned above. I really want to try and gain some legitimate ground with this, and perhaps bring attention to this matter. Thanks for all your suggestions.
If anything, police should be held to a higher standard than that of the public…As it stands now, police can commit crimes with impunity because, in most situations, they investigate themselves…Behavior that would get an ordinary citizen charged, convicted and incarcerated is routinely ignored by “the powers that be” because police are considered to be “above the law” as the “law” is whatever they say it is, the Constitution be damned…
Police officers are the only group that can murder someone by falsely claiming that “they feared for their lives”, have 48 to 72 hours to “get their stories straight”, and have a union lawyer and compliant prosecutor-steered “grand jury” absolve them of responsibility.
Police demand immediate compliance (Israeli-style)–with two or three cops issuing and yelling out conflicting commands, it is easy to see how a person under police control could lose his life for merely attempting to follow conflicting directions.
Ever notice that police unions are “fraternal”? This should tell you something. The “thin-blue-line” is a gang, little different than street gangs–at least when it comes to “covering-up” their questionable and quite often, illegal and criminal behavior.
In today’s day and age, “officer safety” trumps de-escalation of force. This, in part, is due to the militarization of the police along with training in Israeli police tactics. This becomes a problem, with the “us vs. them” attitude that is fosters, along with the fact that Israel is a very different place, being on a constant “war footing”, its police tactics are very different.
There are too many instances of police being “given a pass”, even when incontrovertible video and audio evidence is presented. Grand juries, guided by police-friendly prosecutors, quite often refuse to charge those police officers who abuse their authority.
Police officers, who want to do the right thing, are quite often marginalized and put into harms way, by their own brethren…When a police officer is beating on someone that is already restrained while yelling, “stop resisting” THAT is but one reason police have a “bad name” in many instances…this makes the “good cops” who are standing around, witnessing their “brethren in blue” beating on a restrained suspect, culpable as well…
The US has gone through this before. A century ago. Perhaps for similar reasons. The returning veterans of the US occupation of the Philippines learned some very brutal habits that they continued to apply to US civilians when they started work for the big city police departments. (Might be worth researching the reforms made a century ago, though technology may render those reforms “quaint”)
History does not repeat exactly. Today’s preferential hiring of veterans in law enforcement leads one to wonder if the current epidemic of police brutality may have a similar source. The US occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq may well be providing the wrong training for later employment as a “peace officer”.
How do we fix it? Well, I tend to try for sweeping, simple answers. Ones that government employees will fight tooth and nail.
1) Abolish “sovereign immunity”. Put everyone, civilian taxpayer or government employee on an equal footing in the eye of the law. I don’t care if prosecutors “feel” handcuffed without immunity. Everyone in law enforcement should face consequences for mistakes made (and crimes committed).
2) Require all law enforcement personnel to carry liability / malpractice insurance. This insurance may NOT be provided by the government agency. I don’t care if the patrolman’s union provides it, just not funded by the government. This provides law enforcement with some financial protection from mistakes. More importantly, it will act as a “self-cleaning oven” for the bad actors. When the malpractice insurance premiums exceed income, bad doctors find other employment. I would expect the same to happen with corrupt cops, judges and prosecutors. Nicely covers one honest mistake and punishes the habitual offenders. It can only work if the premiums come out of their own pocket.
3) Abolish the “internal affairs” departments. All law enforcement crimes and misconduct investigations should be conducted by a civilian review board. And I mean CIVILIAN. Members of a law enforcement review board shall not a) Draw a government paycheck. b) Have ever worked in law enforcement. c) Have any immediate family members employed in law enforcement. This civilian review board will operate under the rules of a grand jury where there are few obstacles to their inquiries.
There must also be an exception to the speedy trial laws for government employees. I learned of a neat law enforcement trick when I served on a county grand jury several years ago. We caught a cop in a blatant lie, and when challenged, he stood by the lie. (All cars were equipped with dash cams, he claimed they were not, retired deputy on jury was pissed). We asked the prosecutor what would happen, hypothetically, if we indicted the cop for perjury. The response was that “hypothetically, the prosecutors office would be too busy to pursue such an indictment”. That means under the state’s speedy trial laws, that the indictment would be vacated if no action were taken within 270 days. i.e. the indictment would vanish as if it never happened. Neat way to “take care of their own”.
Seems a mite too simple. It’s likely impossible, yet I can dream.
the true solution to this issue is “familial vigilantism.”
Here are changes that can help reduce police-induced violence:
1. Get rid of police unions. Police unions (fraternities) protect the guilty, and are responsible for the massive whitewashing of questionable police behavior that is presently being committed.
2. Eliminate both “absolute” and “qualified” immunity for all public officials. This includes, prosecutors and judges, police and firefighters, code enforcement and child protective services officials, and others who deal with the citizenry. The threat of being sued personally would encourage them to behave themselves. Require police officers to be “bonded” by an insurance company, with their own funds. No bond= no job. You can bet that insurance companies would be more diligent in weeding out the “bad apples” than our present system…
3. Any public funds disbursed to citizens as a result of police misconduct should come out of police pension funds–NOT from the taxpayers.
4. Regular drug-testing of police officers as well as incident-based drug testing should take place whenever an officer is involved in a violent situation with a citizen–no exceptions.
5. Testing for steroid use should be a part of the drug testing program. You know damn well, many police officers “bulk up” with the “help” of steroids. Steroids also affect users mentally as well, making them more aggressive. The potential for abuse of citizens increases greatly with steroid use.
6. Internal affairs should only be used for disagreements between individual officers–NOT for investigations involving citizen abuse. State-level investigations should be mandatory for all suspected abuses involving citizens.
7. Prosecutors should be charged with malfeasance IF any evidence implicating police officer misconduct is not presented to the grand jury.
8. A national or state-by-state database of abusive individuals who should NEVER be allowed to perform police work should be established–a “blacklist” of abusive (former) police officers.
9. Most people are unaware that police have special “rules” that prohibit them from being questioned from 48 to 72 hours. This allows them to “get their stories straight” and makes it easier to “cover up” bad police behavior. Police must be subject to the same laws as civilians.
10. All police should be required to wear bodycams and utilize dashcams that cannot be turned off. Any police officers who causes a dash or body cam to be turned off should be summarily fired–no excuses. Today’s body and dash cams are reliable enough to withstand harsh treatment. Body and dashcam footage should be uploaded to a public channel “on the cloud” for public perusal.
11. All interrogations must be video and audio recorded. Police should be prohibited from lying or fabricating stories in order to get suspects to confess. False confessions ARE a problem in many departments. Unknown to most people, police can lie with impunity while civilians can be charged with lying to police…fair? I think not…
12. Any legislation passed that restricts the rights of ordinary citizens, such as firearms magazine capacity limits, types of weapons allowed, or restrictive concealed-carry laws should apply equally to police. No special exemptions to be given to police. Laws must be equally applied.
13 “Asset forfeiture” is a form of “legalized robbery under color of law” and must be abolished. We must return to Constitutional principles when it comes to “crimefighting”. The so-called “war on drugs” is actually a “war on the citizenry” and has had an extremely corrosive effect on the Constitutional principles that our country is (supposed to be) founded on.
14. “No-knock” raids must be abolished as they put both police and (especially citizens) in harms way. Even the Nazis “knocked on the door” before gaining entry.
15. SWAT teams must be reigned in on their “dynamic entry techniques”. Utilizing SWAT teams for routine situations is dangerous to both police and citizens. Smashing everything in sight “just because they can”, blaming it on an “adrenaline rush” must end. There is NEVER a reason for destroying property.
16. The “21 foot rule” must be modified or abolished. American police training assumes that ANYONE that gets within 21 feet of a police officer and is deemed a threat, even a non-life-threatening situation is “fair game” for the use of lethal force. Persons with rakes, sticks, knives, or even their fists have been executed, even when non-lethal means would have been more appropriate. Police hide behind the “21 foot rule” in order to justify questionable police shootings. Their “excuse”, when brought before a prosecutor or grand jury is “that is the way they are trained”. THAT has to change. Police have a greater responsibility NOT to use deadly force against those that they could easily subdue by other means.
Police work is not inherently dangerous…there are many other professions that are much more dangerous.
A little “Andy Taylor” could go a long way in allaying fears that citizens have of police.
That being said, I have no problem with police officers who do their job in a fair, conscientious manner…however, it is time to call to task those police officers who only “protect and serve” themselves.
Anarchyst: Your comments above hold water and are a succinct platform for remedying some of this mess………thanks, soapweed
Anarchyst always shows up on time.
Thank you,
I do apologize for the repetitive posts…however, I am “the voice crying out in the wilderness” with solutions, most (if any) that will never be implemented, at least in today’s society.
Regards
You are very welcome…
Regards,
Brilliant common sense solutions for a moral society! The origins of Police Officer’s date back to 1800’s Britain. And was formed by the wealthy elite slave owners and fascist monarchy to patrol the plantation’s and ghetto’s keeping the slave’s and exploited working class in line and in brutal submission. While the so called upper classes literally raped, stealed and/or killed these enslaved men, women, children and even BABIES!. Put in proper context of history and original intention reveals the true and sinister purpose of such Law Enforcement Agencies. Which is NOT to protect US but rather the elite of this profoundly sick society we are increasingly finding ourselves in. Nobody would dare argue that these men were anything other than a sick and twisted fraternity enforcing and committing mass crimes against humanity for personal profit and in many cases perverse pleasure. These are truly mid evil entities and have no place in any truly civilized society! Yet here we are…How in the hell in the 21st century do we arrive literally back into the dark ages under the disgusting veil of progress!?
Good comment. As one of the resident grammar/spelling Nazis (apologies to YoBo for the cultural appropriation), let me offer a couple of pointers:
1) Apostrophes are used to indicate the possessive form, not plural. Police Officers, plantations, ghettos, slaves are all plural (more than one). If you wanted to indicate possessive, it might look like this: “…the Police Officer’s drop gun was found next to the shooting victim…” or “…the slave’s credit cards were maxed-out…”
2) Past tense of steal is stole, not stealed.
3) mid evil should be medieval. Although to be fair, you might have meant: “half- way evil”.
I shall be happy to proof-read any further submissions. Maggie and EL Coyote are also good resources, although I would warn you that EL Coyote can’t distinguish the difference between “your” (belongs to you), and “you’re” (you are).
It is a “dirty little secret” that American “law enforcement” is being trained in tactics used by Israeli police departments. As Israel has been on a “war footing” for a long time, their tactics are very different (and more lethal) than should be the norm here in America.
American law enforcement has morphed into an “us vs. them” attitude in which ordinary citizens are seen as the “enemy” and as such are subordinate to the “power of the state” and the individual police officer. This present situation is dangerous to America “law enforcement” as there WILL be “blowback”…innocent (and not so innocent) law enforcers will both be caught up in this when the SHTF.
There is still time to change these prevailing attitudes, but, I fear, nothing will be done.
We are headed towards a precipice that won’t be pretty for anyone.
I may receive flak for saying this, but, as a military veteran myself, I would be very wary about hiring today’s military veterans into police departments, for the simple fact that this is not a “war zone” and that American citizens are not the enemy. A considerable amount of “deprogramming” should be a requirement for all veterans seeking employment with civilian police departments…
Another aspect of American law enforcement that needs to change is the “21-foot rule”, in which American “law enforcers” are permitted to use lethal force on ANYONE who penetrates that “sphere” of “protection”. There is NO REASON to use deadly force on a person “armed” with a rake, shovel, stick, or other implement. Any police officer who cannot disarm such a person without using deadly force has no business being on the police force.
I’ve always thought police departments should wait until a military veteran has been out of the service for a minimum of three to five years to ensure there is no PTSD, which could cause problems for people the office encounters. As you said, deprogramming is needed to transition after the war zone.
Except actual veterans have experience knowing when to fire and when not to fire. They’re not trigger-happy morons, they’re experienced keeping their cool. I don’t know about that clown, but I had to take shoot/don’t shoot training and I saw no justification to shoot. All I saw was a jerk yelling strange, unnatural, commands that might overwhelm a terrified person’s reptile brain.
You make a very good point about us veterans, who do “keep our cool” under stressful conditions.
Regards,
I believe militarizing the police is how America finds domestic use for what the Defense Contractors make best: WAR
Is why we can’t make shoes or blankets here. We need more accurate targeting systems and surveillance equipment.
Very rarely do police “solve” crimes. They usually react “after the fact”, take reports and evaluate the mess left behind. In addition, cops are “revenue generators” for their localities, issuing tickets (yes, there are “ticket quotas”, despite denials by public officials) that have NOTHING to do with “safety” or crime. If cops don’t “clean up their act” there may be those who have been aggrieved who may “react” in one way or another. Violence is not the solution, but, if cops don’t get rid of their “bad apples”, all bets are off. Well-meaning people cry about how bad cops have it, doing their jobs–cry me a river–police work is one of the most boring and safest jobs there is. Very rarely are cops’ lives in danger–they “hold all the cards” and have the power. For successful citizen resistance to corrupt cops, look up the “battle of Athens Tennessee”. Armed citizenry physically removed corrupt law enforcement individuals from office. For solutions to our present out-of-control “law enforcement” situation, obtain and read “Unintended Consequences” by John Ross. I do realize that not all law enforcement is corrupt, most cops endeavor to do an honest job (and return home to their families), BUT (and that’s a very big BUT) if law enforcement leaders do not reign in and get rid of the “bad apples”, good cops will suffer, as those who go against them will not differentiate between “good” cops and “bad” cops. Let’s solve this problem now, while we still can. Americans are very slow to “react”, but when they do–look out…
My desire is to see every cop go home safely after his shift. That being said…
The police depend upon an approving citizenry to effectively police. Without that cooperation, the police are effectively rendered powerless despite all their armament and techno gadgets.
There is a vast chasm between the black person in Watts and the white person in Beverly Hills as to how each one views the cops. The person in Watts has a greater contact with the police and sees them as they truly are, as an oppressor, whereas the person in Beverly Hills, who most of their lives never come in contact with the police, sees them as a protector. These two views are irreconcilable.
Juries most often are made up of people who have very little contact with the police and are wedded to the belief that the police are protectors. The thin blue line between order and civil chaos. However, the advent of the video phone has made everyone a cameraman. The joke in Los Angeles during the tenure of Darryl Gates, chief of police, concerning the Rodney King beating which was filmed on video camera by George Holliday was that Gates wanted a 7 day waiting period on the purchase of video cameras.
The public access to camera phones has led to a plethora of videos on main stream media showing the brutality of police in action. This is changing the beliefs of the Beverly Hills crowd to a more realistic view of police work. Juries which were condescending to police brutality and lying by the police on the stand are becoming more skeptical of claims of fear for personal safety and the victims posed a threat , which the police use for justification for their aggressive actions. The large settlements in suits against police malpractice demonstrate this trend.
The hemorrhaging of moneys from municipal coffers in a tight economy from these suits against the police will sooner or later be addressed. The suggestion that these judgements should come out of the police pension contribution by the municipalities is a good one as now there isn’t any restraint on police behavior. Now the governing bodies just dig deeper into the public purse to satisfy these claims.
States with referendums should place on the ballot a measure to remove sovereign immunity from any public official that acts contrary to the Constitution. If you want immunity for your actions from the public, then conform to the Constitution and the laws. Sovereign immunity is granted from the people and not from some authoritarian body
I have said many times that the police are hurting themselves in choosing sides and allowing militarization of their departments. As has happened recently, police will be attacked by an angry public. As the attacks increase, they will be unable or unwilling to perform their duties.
If I were a chief of police, I would come out on public media and make a contract with the people that our department would “serve and protect” and mean it. I would tell the city councils and county commissioners that we will not be a revenue collection agency for the government. I would tell my officers that we need to align our priorities with the public’s need.
We have reached a point in our declining economy, with declining tax revenues, where the government has begun preying on the populous for the money that they need to stay alive.
It is truly becoming a them or us polarity. That’s bad. With the increased militarization and the training in Israeli military tactics, “we are all Palestinians, now”.
If you were the chief of police, you couldn’t tell the government you won’t do what they want because, in most cases, police chiefs are appointed and the government can fire you. Now, if you’re an elected sheriff, have at it.
Tim. Let it go. That dude didn’t have to die, but he did. That could have been anyone of us with a few too many drinks in us, not thinking about our actions. Research this online a little bit before you waste your time. The engraving on the cops rifle means nothing. The BB gun these guys were brandishing out the 5th floor hotel window looks just like any other rifle would, with a scope mounted on top. You certainly can’t expect the observers to have known it was a BB gun. Most of the people crying about this situation are the same ones who wanted to know why it took a team so long to take out the Vegas sniper. This is ballsy shit going after armed sniper type people, which is what this little SWAT team thought they were doing. Watch the extended video, they tried to get Mr. Shaver out of his room for 10 minutes before he finally came out. This was a five-man extraction team. Brailsford was the cover guy. He never said a word. His Sergeant was the one commanding the action. Watch the video, after Shaver is shot, the jump team goes for the room where they think the man with the rifle is. They are trying to take out a sniper before he shoots anybody below. Look at the screenshots on the Rogan piece that I linked on the original post. It will give you an idea of what they thought they were dealing with, and also why he was acquitted. This is not a situation where there was no justice. He was charged with murder, and he went to trial. Because you don’t agree with the verdict, is no reason to waste any more time on it. They weren’t going to shoot Shaver for crossing his legs wrong or anything else. But I guarantee that if a cop thinks you have a gun and you start reaching around your back when they tell you not to, they’re going to defend themselves. 10 seconds before Mr. Shaver was shot, the cop expressly told him if you reach around your back again, I will shoot you, after not shooting him the first time he did it. That’s not confusing, that’s a very clear instruction, with an explanation of the consequences. For whatever reason Mr. Shaver chose to ignore that, and it cost him. Unfortunate, yes, but totally within his control.
Maybe you should shut the fuck up and listen to thc0655, an actual cop.
Your vociferous support of this murderous fuck is disgusting.
Why don’t you reveal why you support these motherfuckers? Couldn’t be because you have law enforcement relatives?
Jim, like I said this could have been any one of us. That weighs on me. There is no joy in the position I take. But if I were Mr. Shaver, I would have survived, no question. Because I would have followed instructions. Especially about reaching behind my back. I have no law enforcement relatives. I know a few cops, but don’t hang out with any on a day-to-day basis. Cops want to see your hands in dangerous situations, which they certainly thought they might be getting themselves into in this case. Quickly reaching behind your back is the absolute worst thing you could do when you’re in the situation Mr. Shaver was in. And he did it twice. And was warned expressly after the first time not to do it again, and told what would happen if he did. There is a good chance that will get you shot. Police are under no obligation to take a bullet in the course of their job. Watching Mr. Shaver get executed while on his knees begging for his life is very disturbing to me. But I don’t blame the cop. He was tried for murder. What more do you want? The jury looked at the same things I’m looking at, and came to the same conclusion. Again, after the Vegas shooting, all the same monkeys raising hell about why the police didn’t do more. Going after guys with guns is not a fun job. One mistake and you’re a dead man. I don’t want that job. People around here are very callous about kill and be killed. They don’t realize how ugly it actually is. I don’t think 90% of the people on this blog would survive 3 days and a true s*** hit the fan situation. Because you have to be shooting a lot of people that looked a lot more sympathetic than Mr. Shaver or you’d die in your tracks. I respect the jury’s decision. If I’d been on the jury, I would have made the same call, after reviewing all the facts. Can’t say it wouldn’t have haunted me for a long time, but it would have been the right thing to do
Star, here is a video showing what a justified shooting looks like.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/sheriffs-deputy-fatally-shoots-suspect-florida-51699066?yptr=yahoo
See WIP, I actually think that’s less of a justified shooting. That Haitian didn’t have a gun, just a violent nut. Seems to me a billy club or a taser could have taken him right out, or even pepper spray. The problem with any of those things though is you’ve got to decide, you pull your gun or do you pull your taser. From that moment you’re committed. The Arizona shooting the police were going after guys with guns. There’s no thought of billy clubs or pepper spray or tasers in that case. Like they say, you don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. BSO and Metro Dade actually shoot an awful lot of people down here. I’ve known Scott the sheriff since my club days. I’m actually thinking about calling him and see if he’ll let me interview him about this sort of thing. If I do, I’ll get his thoughts on the Arizona shooting. He’s not a PC guy at all. I’m not buying that THC 0655 is a cop. I might have been born at night, but not last night.
How would the cops know if he has a gun or not? Add to that the fact is isn’t even attempting to follow a single order. Add to that the guy is attacking both of them. Add the that he’s dragging one by the leg. Add to that he’s bigger and stronger get than both of them.
For most of the video Shaver is lieing on stomach on the floor with his hands behind his back. Any one of the 5 police who were in that hallway with AR-15s pointed at him could have quickly approached him, put their knee on his back, and cuffed his hands behind his back. They did not do that. Instead he was screamed at, threathened him, and made to crawl on this knees. The cops wasted valuable time in the hallway with him and the woman in the video screaming at them, making them perform pointless actions. Their goal should have been to secure those two as quickly as possible and get into the hotel room to deal with what they thought was an active shooter.
“The engraving on the cops rifle means nothing.”
Really? Why put it there if it means nothing, hmm? Do you put signs for political candidates in your yard that you don’t believe in? Do you put bumper stickers on your car for no apparent reason?
You have officially lost your fucking mind.
There have been cases where a law-abiding citizen defended himself with a firearm and was prosecuted because he had pro-gun and Second Amendment stickers on his vehicle. The murderer’s firearm and the inscription on it certainly should be used to prove “intent to murder” in any subsequent civil action.
If it was an issue-weapon, why allow personal customizations like that in the first place? It’s unprofessional, could potentially damage the weapon (if you’re a poser moron), and not vital to actually improving function. Putting You’re Fucked on your issue rifle seems like a really bad precedent to set if you’re supposed to consider violence a last response.
Imagine for a moment if Air Force One had stenciled on the side in 4′ high letters: “Suck My Cock”.
Starfcker would say: “it means nothing”.
Star, are you a fukcop? Inquiring minds want to know.
No. But I took the Army aptitude test in high school and it came back with one possible career path for me, Sheriff. I took it again online for fun in 2005, and it came back with the exact same answer, Sheriff. So I guess I’ve thought that way for a long, long time.
Thank God you are not one.
Society is better for it.
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Who cares. In America people are allowed to own and have possesion of firearms.
“We the people” are often our own worst enemies. It was the JURY who found the cop not guilty. The Mesa PD had long ago fired the murderous officer, and the Sgt whose voice you hear on the video giving commands resigned and moved to the Philippines. They knew they had a bad shoot. I’m a Sgt in a big city east coast PD and every cop I’ve talked to about this has agreed with me: “WTF?! Guilty of manslaughter at the minimum, or Homicide.” Judges and juries do this kind of thing all the time, but it’s mostly career criminals getting away with murder and all kinds of lesser offenses. Exhibit #1: a San Francisco jury just found Kate Steinle’s murderer not guilty. Policing needs some serious, sweeping reforms. But often “we the people” are to blame when a rogue cop gets off.
Thank you.
I think the OJ Simpson verdict did a LOT of damage to our national character in a legalistic sense.
Don’t cops get special trials? I’ve heard they get different court systems/trials.
Cops don’t get special trials, but they get prosecutors who “go through the motions” and themselves almost guarantee an acquittal. Prosecutors guide the actions of court officials and can easily give cops a break (which they often do…they select jurors who FEAR retribution if they issue the “wrong” verdict (guilty). Most cops trials are manipulated to the extreme.
When cops are sentenced to prison, they are almost never housed in the state prison system. They usually go to federal pens under an assumed name. Many of them go to “country club” prisons (club fed) that are located on military bases.
If I had my way, convicted cops would be incarcerated in the state system…and get no special treatment…
Tim, I commend you for stepping forward and volunteering your effort toward this. If it gains traction and you end up getting “disappeared” for being too inquisitive we will think kind thoughts of you and say pleasant things in passing about you as we do AWD and Holly O.
I wondered why, if the only suspicious activity was the brandishing of a pellet gun, but the cops arrived to the scene where there is NO GUN and no GUNSHOTS FIRED and surely confusion as to which window was the correct room, why didn’t common sense take over and the cops say “well, we don’t see a gun or see any signs of a crime committed, so JUST because someone saw a gun does not mean we are being threatened by a gun.”
At the very least, why didn’t the “third” guy shouting out all the confusing instructions just go handcuff the guy? Why have a narrator anyway? “I told you that you would be shot if you did that. Shoot him now.” So, yeah… the guy barking commands should have been tried as a “abetting” a murder.
Tim , I agree with Star .Let this go . The cop was found not guilty of any wrong doing regardless of what we think.You don’t want to bring any trouble upon yourself or your family.There will be a Civil trial and the young man’s Family will probably receive a big award .
I’m glad Dallas has worked out good for you .A lot of work in Texas.Great state to be in at least for now.
Tim…………you asked TBP for help with specific questions to be asked.
Nobody helped you except a little bit by Maggie a couple comments above. Shame on them; maybe it is Sunday and they can’t read well.
I have a couple of important points for you to consider:
1. Why didn’t the police handcuff this innocent guy when he was face down?
2. If not handcuff, why not Tase the guy – I would bet of the 5 cops, someone had a Taser.
3. What are the rules fort using lethal force vs non-lethal?
Thanks koko… too much of the feedback was about WHETHER Tim should investigate. Tim is a grown man and he will do what he feels he can and has the time to do.
Now, having said that, if Tim finds out that trying to question police actions, even from a distance, can bring all kinds of negative attention his way, Tim will have to decide what to do THEN.
For now, I hope he finds out why that asshole was making them crawl instead of walking his fat lazy ass over and cuffing them.
Kokoda, they were going after someone with a rifle. I doubt they even had a taser.
@kokoda – Thanks. It’s taken me a full 24 hours to get back to this post. That’s exactly the kind of help I needed from TBP crowd. Thanks again.
:large
A fascinating site, by the way.
Tim…I like the link…meant that for you
Also…if you want to find out who to call first, find an older librarian in the area who knows who is who.
,
Problem is, how many fingers do you have? There are lots of holes in the dikes. I’ve read extensively about many of these incidents. One of my favourite writers of this specific venue was William Norman Grigg (RIP).
A good example would be of a Mr. Jose Guerena. From Mr. Grigg’s article:
““Mom, was my dad a bad guy?” four-year-old Joel Guerena plaintively asked his mother Vanessa after her husband, 26-year-old Jose, was killed in a withering barrage of gunfire during a SWAT invasion of their home. “They killed my dad! Police killed my dad! Why? What did my dad do?””
“”I saw this guy pointing me at the window,” Vanessa recalled in a subsequent television interview. “So, I got scared. And, I got like, ‘Please don’t shoot, I have a baby.’ I put my baby [down]. [And I] put bag in window. And, I yell ‘Jose! Jose! Wake up!'”
According to his wife, Jose’s last words were: “Vani, go into the closet with the kid. Go!” He then grabbed his AR-15 and went to confront the people who threatened his family. Seven seconds later, he was dead. His killers unleashed a fusillade of 71 shots.
On August 12, 2011 it was announced that the family of Jose Guerena filed an intention to sue Pima County Sheriff Dupnik, and all the officers who shot Guerena or were part of the raid, offering to settle for $20 million. The lawsuit cites that the officers acted with negligence when they failed to announce themselves and put Guerena’s wife and son in danger, and willingly deprived Guerena of medical attention after he was shot, leading to his death, and violated his civil rights.
In September 2013, Pima County, the towns of Sahuarita, Marana, and Oro Valley, approved a combined settlement of $3.4 million to Guerena’s widow, with Pima County contributing $2.35 million, Sahuarita, $260,000, Marana, $720,000, and Oro Valley, $100,000. The settlements required approval from each jurisdictions board, with only one board member from Pima county dissenting.[2] Pima County officials claim that the settlement does not imply wrongdoing.
There are many examples I could list. These assaults seem more prevalent than ever, but my guess is that the comment Thc0655 makes is correct.
The qualities of beer and cheese are heavily dependent on the culture (ex. yeast).
I doubt there will be a sea-change in institutions until we see a change in the culture.
Lethal violence of any sort in order to be moral should be the final alternative. That means all other options having failed forces one to violence. Was that done in this case? Was there NO other practical option but to blow him away? Of course not. Even the feeblest thinker (are you listening Star?) could have come up with options not including murder. Because that’s what it was. A state sanctioned homicide.
Agree 100%, CCRider.
Easy, CC
That was heavy handed of me and I apologize. This travesty is a result of the state promoted uniform love that’s been force fed into all of us. Those who wear it use to be met with respect. Now all who wear it are ‘heroes’. Part of the societal disease we’ll all pay dearly for someday.
In 1972 I was a 22 year old armed Security Guard working 3rd shift in some of the most dangerous parts of New Orleans. After being an M-60 Grunt in Nam it was a lark.
For every cop in the city then there were 3 armed Security Guards.
At 2:00 am one night on a foot patrol, alone in a high crime area, I came up behind a tall white male off a lonely levy road, by a match factory, next to the Mississippi. It was dark, a place where they use to take stolen cars to strip and or trade/sell them, deal drugs, etc. I had to punch a key into a Detox clock once every hour.
I surprised a guy who was squatting down by the front tire of an MGB (I had taken my .38 out of the holster). I got up right behind him walking tip toe. We had a brief conversation (that shocked him when I appeared). When I asked him he said the car was his. I asked him to take his wallet out and show me his ID. He was scared, much like the guy in the video. Still squatting he suddenly jammed his right hand in the top of his left boot and started to turn towards me with what I thought was a small black gun in his hand.
I pivoted a little to the left while jamming the barrel into his neck and growled “FREEZE” which he did…I had the slack taken up on the trigger. Then, I clearly saw the wallet in his hand. I could hear the guy breathing.
He whimpered and was shaking…I reached down with my left hand and took the wallet… it really was his car. He thought he had a flat and pulled off to check it.
I had had almost no training…but three years earlier I had been in dozens of firefights and made countless split second life and death decisions.
Thank God I didn’t kill that guy by his MGB.
Only God knows what was in the Police Officer’s heart and eventually that will be truly judged. His tone, demeanor, and rifle graffiti screams an eagerness looking for an excuse to pull the trigger.
I wish I hadn’t of watched the video now…it sickened me.
There are a series of movies called “Faces of Death”. At one time you could rent them at the corner video store years ago. Nothing I ever saw on those movies were as bad as what I saw on that video.
Thanks Mark. A profoundly relevant reminiscence.
You bet Maggie…the incident has always stuck with me…reflexes can overwhelm reason and murder mercy.
At the end of the video, after the LEO executes the young man, he and his partner try to use a plastic key card to open a hotel room door that is, at an apparently 90 degree angle from another room,which does not appear to be in the LEO’s line of sight from the body cam view, based upon the video. How did these LEOs know which room the young man and woman exited from, based upon the film?
Fourth Major Bad Experience With Dangerous “Smart” Energy Meter – Andrea Iravani
Fourth Major Bad Experience With Dangerous “Smart” Energy Meter
Fuck Off
The instruction given by the police officer were not „complicated“. They were contradictory. Here is the Webster definition of the verb „crawl“:
intransitive verb
1 a : to move on one’s !!!hands and knees !!! The baby crawled toward her mother.
b : to move slowly in a prone position without or as if without the use of limbs The snake crawled into its hole. The soldiers crawled forward on their bellies.
It is not possible to crawl with your hands in the air. Idiocracy, here we come.
Tim,
I don’t have any questions you can ask. I do have two questions for you to consider.
1. The people whom you wish to interview are under no obligation whatsoever to speak with you. You’ll have 60 seconds, or less, to make your pitch. What will you say to convince them to give you their time?
2. What do you hope to accomplish? Overturn the verdict? Or, something less grandiose? Like, educate the public? How will you get them to listen? Or, do you just want to feel satisfied that you did something?
FWIW, I really DO admire people, like you, who actually get involved actively in issues. So, please don’t take my questions as a criticism.
I think Tim just wants to KNOW. I sometimes wonder if Bernstein and Woodward had minded their own business whether things would be better now. :/
@stuck –
I don’t know. It’s taken me a full 24 hours to get back to this thread. I don’t know what I hope to accomplish, or what I CAN accomplish. It’s easy to see Star’s and BB’s point, on the one hand.
On the other hand, I think of that quote, something like, “Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.”
After being here at TBP for so long, I’ve grown numb to the problems surrounding us. Things are ok for me and mine, so fuck them and their problems. It’s an easy mindset to fall into.
Maybe I hope I can just shine a little light into a dark corner. There’s a White House petition to investigate this shooting. Maybe I can, somehow, get someone to look into this, or bring awareness to the fact that they’re NOT going to look into it.
But, let me be honest with myself. It’s Monday night now. Most of the intense emotions are gone. I’m about to eat dinner, have some time with the kids, and get ready for bed. If I’m going to do “anything” I have to make a plan and then follow through.
No criticism taken.
Scumbag’s father was an Internal affairs guy.
Now he’s a lawyer.
https://www.fclaw.com/people/attorneys/a-d/brailsford-phil
https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-brailsford-74915370
I don’t think the Shaver’s executioner was the same guy giving the verbal instructions. One of the other cops in the line was issuing the contradictory commands.
The shooter was fired for poor performance about 2 months after the shooting from what I can gather. I wonder if he got his AR-15 back?
Tim, if you decide to move forward on this I would say tread lightly and manage your expectations. As one who has dealt extensively with the legal/justice system over the past five years, it is a circuitous and sometimes tortuous route to navigate. I applaud you in the way you are approaching this. Those calling for vigilantism and the “eye for an eye” approach are absurd and likely little more than keyboard warriors.
Thco655, great point about “we the people”. Personal responsibility has pretty much become a lost virtue and societies get what they accept.
Starfckr, it amazes me the amount of vitriol and hypocrisy being thrown at you for calmly and rationally having a dissenting point of view and makes me wonder if TBP is much more of an echo chamber than I originally thought. My only disagreement on your take would be the “you’re fucked” etched on the rifle. That’s like seeing a soldier with “born to kill” written on his helmet. An indication of PTSD maybe? At the very least it’s unprofessional and looks bad. However, I do agree with you 100% that 90% of the people on this blog probably wouldn’t survive 3 days in a true SHTF event.
Calling for vigilante justice is one thing.
But, the fact remains that this narcissist psychopath is still out there, even further emboldened after being improperly exonerated.
He will either kill again, or become entwined in the legal system again, not unlike OJ. Count on it.
Hopefully he will die at the hands of his next encounter, rather than cost society another cent, or lack of sleep.
May he rot in Hell eternally.
Tim, if you do go forward with “investigating” by phone or email, I suggest you make sure you know a bit about Open Records laws and how they apply to the rights of the “press.” Now that the “press” is anyone with a cell phone, no one really bothers to be familiar with the “rules.”
I hope it is helpful. You might get an idea of Where to start by perusing this page.
Tim.
My husband hopes you go forward. I want to know if cops really have become THE ENEMY.
They always were the enemy.
Only you have just recently became enlightened to it.