The quote in the title is attributed to the Apostle Thomas, aka Doubting Thomas, because he didn’t believe Jesus actually rose from the dead. At least Jesus gave him the opportunity to assuage his doubt when Jesus said to Thomas — “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
Why doesn’t God do that for people today?? Why allow people to not believe, when he darn well CAN provide proofs for us doubters and/or unbelievers? It would be so easy since, well, you know … GOD! But, noooo, rather than provide some quick and easy proof, what what we get is <Poof!!>, go straight to hell, do not collect $200.
Of course, a Christian will tell you that God has already provided all the proof you’ll ever need. Here are the Biggies:
—1) An enormous complex universe that is designed must have a Designer … the earth is just the right distance from the sun … the sun is just the right size … the solar system is just in the right spot in this galaxy … earth’s rotation is just the right speed … the moon is in the right place and right size .. etc. etc. and hundreds of other variables that if there was even a slight change in any one them then the universe would have collapsed right after the big bang. Now, if you mapped out the probabilities of each of these events happening just in the right amounts, at the right place, and the right time, and of their own accord …… well, that number would be five bazillion hoolagooeygagglebits to one! In other words, an impossibility in actuality.
—2) Life itself exists and human life is exceedingly complex …. life cannot start from non-life …. evolution is deeply flawed and leaves key questions unanswered … that to evolve by a series of totally random accidental beneficial mutations from a single celled organism swimming in some primordial soup a few million years ago, and into one having a self-aware brain, arguable the most complex thing in the universe … is the same number as above, only raised to itself. (Although I’m not sure why God put men’s testicles in such an open easy-to-attack location. He could have at least made them retractable … and less itchy. This would greatly have helped my unbelief.)
—3) DNA is the fingerprint of God … consisting of just four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C …. there are three billion in every human cell …. it is basically a detailed instruction code, like a computer program, which makes you, you …. and natural, biological causes can not explain the who, how, when, or what involved in this programmed information …. to think the process is accidental is absurd … someone must have intentionally constructed (programmed) it.
—4) You don’t really need proof …. God will reveal himself, in his own way, to every individual who truly seeks God … from the billionaire in the White House to the aborigine in an Australian desert … “Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities…have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made.”
—5) Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God … he IS God … God in the flesh … the truth, the light, the door, Alpha and Omega … he died for us …. he rose from the dead … he sits at the right hand of His Father … he can do no more for you … he knocks on the door of your heart, and it is up to you to answer.
Ultimately, the best proof offered by virtually all theologians is a philosophical one (or, theological/logical, depending on how you classify such things).
I will quote my favorite Christian writer of the current age, Philip Yancey. (I’ve read all his books, and will read anything new he publishes.) In his fabulous book “The Jesus I Never Knew” he answers the question regarding why God doesn’t use His Power to convince by referring to Dostoevsky’s “the miracle of restraint“, saying;
“More amazing is his refusal to perform and to overwhelm. God’s terrible insistence on human freedom is so absolute that he granted us the power to live as though he did not exist, to spit in his face, to crucify him. I believe God insists on such restraint because no pyrotechnic displays of omnipotence will achieve the response he desires. Although power can force obedience, only love can summon a response of love, which is the one thing God wants from us and the reason he created us.”
Well, that’s just a bunch of hooey! He’s constructing an argument which an honest Doubting Thomas does not make. We’re not talking about “forcing” obedience! By his definition one could say Christ being nailed to the cross is an attempt to “force” — via either love or guilt — people to believe. All we want is a little better quality of evidence.
Now, after a believer has given you all of the above typical evidences, and if the unbeliever remains in their unbelieving state, then this will be their final response; — “for people like you who willfully refuse to believe, no amount of proof will convince you!“.
This also is a bunch of hooey! Here are 9 things God could have EASILY done to bring many man more people to believe in Him.
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1)- He would have preserved an ORIGINAL copy of the entire Bible. What one question do Christians ask ten thousand times ten thousand times, or more, in their lifetimes? Even non-believers ask this question; “What does God require of me? What shall I do?”. Great question. And where do they tell you to find the answer? The Bible … God’s WORD to humanity! If God has all the vast powers attributed to him, I would expect that he would willingly and gladly make available for all time an unedited perfect ORIGINAL text of His Word.
— What we have. Kibbles ‘n bits, bits ‘n pieces (see above). The oldest book in the Bible was written over 3000 years ago. The oldest complete copy is dated around 200BC, a copy of a copy ad infinitum two thousand years removed. The first full Old Testament manuscript in Hebrew, the Leningrad Codex is dated 1008, about 1300 years after the last book of the OT was written. The oldest text from the Gospel of John is from about 100 years after the death of Christ … and it is but just a small fragment. Christians can’t even agree on what which books are biblical; Protestants say 66 books, Catholics have 73. The books we now call the Bible were determined to be canonical by that awesome fail-safe method of …. voting. In fact, were it not for Bishop Athanasius, a pugnacious church leader who lived 300+ years after the death of Christ, the book of Revelation wouldn’t have even made the cut! What a mess! Does God creates messes? It certainly seems that constructing this Bible was entirely a human affair.
2)- He would have given us a Bible without errors. Christianity claims the Bible is the inerrant (freedom from error or untruths) word of God …. yet come up with myriad explanations to explain away the errors they know are there. This is crazy because, logically, a perfect God must be incapable of authoring (even though the human writers were “inspired”) an imperfect work.
— What we have. A plethora of errors; scientific, historical, error of large numbers (exaggerations), and contradictions from beginning to end. Again, Christianity KNOWS these exist … and are reduced to just explaining them away. As for me, I would find it much easier to believe in God if he didn’t make so many mistakes.
[NOTE: Here is hands down the very best site I’ve ever found on the internet regarding the study of inerrancy. It allows you to sort contradictions by color, by any book in the Bible, and by type of contradiction, and allows you to drill down via cross reference. It’s an amazing piece of work. http://bibviz.com/ ]
3)- Jesus would have written ….. something! At least Jesus could have written down something that would have prevented Paul from starting a new religion (something Jesus never talked about, or wanted.) “The Art Of Salvation” by JC …. would have been the best seller of all eternity. God becomes human, and doesn’t have time to write a few words himself? Utterly inconceivable.
— What we have. Total Silence. Jesus came armed with words. He should have brought a pen. Hearing Jesus’ message directly from him, rather than hearing ABOUT him, would go a long way to convincing many that he was who he claimed to be. As it stands, heathens can only guess whether he is fact or fiction.
4)- There would be intelligent life on the moon, and perhaps even Mars. I fully agree with the idea that the universe is amazingly complex and ordered, the human body (DNA and brain, especially) even more so, and the chances of all this arising from nothing, and then by a serious of fortuitous accidents is truly astounding, and if calculated as a probability it must be near zero. Yet, here we are. It seems the probability is 1. It can (did) happen just that once. But, the chances of intelligent self-aware life happening one or two other times? ZERO!! Let me tell you, if Neil Armstrong took one small step, and then tripped over an electric can opener … I am IMMEDIATELY a God-fearing Believer!!
— What we have. A cold dead universe (as far as we know). And don’t give me that garbage about microbes. We. Are. Alone. And to me, alone means “without God”.
5)- He would have made Mohammad a genius. There is evidence that Mohammad had an extra third chromosome 21, known as Trisomy 21. This is the chromosome responsible for retardation. Too bad, so sad. Because, God could have made sure that Mohammad had an IQ of 205 … way above Mensa territory. A Mensa intellect would have said ….
— What we have. We have this one solitary illiterate child rapist and goat fucker, with an IQ lower than that goat, who invents a religion that winds up having killed and/or enslaved millions upon millions for well over a millennium, and whereby all its followers will wind up burning forever in hell. That this despicable scum of humanity was allowed to exist, when he could have so easily been eradicated, neutralized, or made smart – makes me wonder if God is a fantasy.
6) There would be just ONE basic world-wide religion, ever. Because this is how it would work out; Ein Gotta, Ein Volk, eine Religion.
— What we have. Through the ages, it is estimated man has concocted over 5000 religions. All but ONE of them are wrong. Which is the right one? Why … the one YOU believe in! Few stop to think WHY there have been so many religions. And those that do, inevitably blame it on Satan … which really answers nothing. A Deep Thinker should come to the conclusion that there are 5000+ religions for the simple reason that humans like to make shit up, including quite possibly the one you like.
7)- Miracles: Do just ONE Big Miracle every generation. Miracle meaning “an event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws” which, by default, means a Deity is involved.
— What we have. The “argument from miracles” is a rather weak one, with some serious flaws. Hence, this is actually the weakest of the arguments presented here. We’re talking about doubters/skeptics here, and for many of them ALL miracles can be explained away, or doubted. Nevertheless, we find this in Joshua 10:13; — “So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.” Let me tell you something, pal. If the earth stops spinning just-like-that for 24 hours and without ripping it to shreds , and then some big ol’ finger starts it spinning again —- then I’m going to church every day of the week, and six times on Sunday! And so will you.
8) Direct Brain Repair. Everything that I am and know is the result of my brain synapses firing away. Data entered into my brain either purposefully or randomly from the external world; family, schooling, church, culture, televisions, books, internet, etc. The vast majority of the time I had very little control of what came in. Once in, that same brain attempts to turn raw data into information; it calculates, categorizes, analyses, evaluates, cross references, compares, and stores everything. And it makes conclusions. It always thinks it’s conclusions are truth but, sometimes it is not truth. Sometimes, it just has no way of knowing its truth is a lie.
And that’s where God comes into the picture. Christians universally believe God knows our thoughts. He who created all there is, created our brains, and if he can change hearts he can also change brains. If I believe God does not exist, then whatever those reasons are, God could most easily reprogram the faulty hijacked synapses. This is NOT forcing me to believe! All I now have is real truth. I am still a free agent with free will, not a robot, and I can still reject him. What would be the result of such an intervening and caring God? Instead of the vast majority of humans going to hell, most would be saved. That’s a God I can accept.
— What we have. Billions of people alive today are destined for hell even though God could fix their hacked brains. We have a God who does not intervene directly. You’re on your own. Even the Bible states — ” … continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling …”. And if you were born to Muslim parents in a strict Muslim country, and you went to Muslim schools, and attended mosque weekly, and you never had the opportunity to even once hear the Gospel message … well, to bad, no soup for you! The death of billions over the eons, and their subsequent torture for eternity, is a pretty good reason why skeptics think this god stuff is all made up nonsense.
9) He would NOT want people to worship him. Let’s imagine this analogy is true, even though the scale in the latter half isn’t nearly great enough: God is to man as a man is to an ant. Would YOU want an ant to worship you? Would you want the ant to build little ant-hill houses of worship? It’s a preposterous idea, isn’t it? God gets billions of praises each and every day regarding how super great and terrific he is, not only from humans, but angels and other spiritual beings .. and we are to think he wants, needs, or enjoys this?? What do we call a human who displays such qualities (on a human scale)? Narcissist? Psychopath? “Dear God, should I worship you?“. If I got this response, that would be a God which makes sense; “Frankly, Stucky, I don’t give a damn!”
— What we have. A psychopath narcissistic God? Hey, I’m just asking.
None of the above, individually or collectively, are Absolute Proofs. But, I’m not looking for absolute proofs! I’m merely looking for better evidence than typically provided.Give us Doubting Thomas types just half of the above evidences, and most of us would believe, believe me.
The Bottom Bottom Line: After all is said and done, proofs given and either rejected or accepted, it inevitably is reduced to these simple and powerful six words; — “You just need to have faith.” But, how does that help my unbelief? I feel like we’ve just made a long journey and arrived right back at the starting point ………………
.
Extra reading An alternate view from a Christian perspective. Nice short little article on why God can’t prove his existance
“Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we had always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have. So let us leave behind all these boys’ philosophies–these over simple answers. The problem is not simple and the answer is not going to be simple either.”
― C.S. Lewis
Stucky seems to share the common delusion that the world is supposed to be some kind of petting zoo for humanity, in which The Source feeds us tidbits and makes things nice and cozy for humanity. There is no basis for such a puerile belief, certainly not in the Bible….In fact, humanity is free to create either heaven or hell for itself on this planet, and to live with those consequences.Earth is a tough school, in which souls are challenged to do better….Personally, I agree with Hopkins that “the world is charged with the grandeur of God”, but I am not a Christian as currently defined because I see no evidence for “Hell” or any of the other trappings of a fear based religion. If you want hell, there are plenty of opportunities to find it without leaving Earth.
“Stucky seems to share the common delusion that the world is supposed to be some kind of petting zoo for humanity, in which The Source feeds us tidbits and makes things nice and cozy for humanity. There is no basis for such a puerile belief, certainly not in the Bible…”
When you talk out of your ass, do your ass-cheeks vibrate?
— The entire Bible is “The Source” feeding us tidbits about Himself, us, and our relationship with him.
— What is heaven but a place that’s nice and cozy for humans?
— And regarding this life in the here and now there are literally thousands of passages which speak of life, liberty peace and prosperity … you know, “cozy” stuff.
Your knowledge of Scripture is below puerile, it is infantile.
We only feel because of the dichotomy of pain versus pleasure. Without the existence pain how could we ever know the true power of pleasure or salvation ?
Your question as to why doesn’t God give us proof right here, right now, harks back to Scripture. When Jesus walked the earth he gave anyone interested ample proof He was God. Why didn’t everyone believe him then? You want a miracle right now, so you (and presumably everyone else) can believe. Jesus gave the Jews, his brethren, plenty of miracles. Many believed. Many did not. The politically powerful ones killed him for it, because He threatened their power.
Nothing under the sun is new.
My 9 points only involved one miracle.
Why? Because, generally speaking, miracles are poor proofs, and don’t convince people for long. The Israelites saw 10 stupendous miracles when they left Egypt, and more after, yet they continued to piss off God with their moaning, groaning, and bitching.
Moses parted the Red Sea! Jesus just walked on water. Moses turned a dead wooden staff into a living snake! Jesus just turned water into wine. Joshua made the sun stand still!! Jesus just stilled the storm.
IOW, Jesus was a minor miracle worker. None of his miracles are particularly convincing … and none are verified outside of the Gospel writers, who might have had an ax to grind.
Forget the Hebrew bible. Christians are not Orthodox Jews.
All we as Christians need to know is here :
Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount
Matthew 5, 6, 7
http://www.bibletexts.com/texts/som.htm
“Ask, Seek, Knock” – 7 “Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks will receive, and anyone who seeks will find, and the door will be opened to him who knocks. 9 Would any of you who are fathers give your son a stone when he asks for bread? 10 Or would you give him a snake when he asks for a fish? 11 As bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children. How much more, then, will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
… blessed are those who have not seen yet still believed.
Also,
Mt 12:38-40 … Jesus’s answer to those that ask for signs (which, I was at one time).
“I feel like we’ve just made a long journey and arrived right back at the starting point ………………”
And yet you felt compelled to take the trip.
Like the pattern thing- if you can’t see it, maybe it’s because you really don’t want to. That’s the real question you should be asking. With all of the evidence available, as deep and layered and sublime and unfathomable and complex and simple and overwhelming and and ineffable, what exactly are you looking for? And that you look yet…
If your new years wish was a high comment count,
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Ya. he makes me look like an amateur in that regard. This will surpass my hunting post by a long shot. No pun intended.
Are you saying I’m a comment whore? If so, I resemble that remark.
“Will this be interesting enough to generate discussion?” …. is pretty much always a question I ask myself on every original article I write.
I am always compelled. I’ve been riding the God Train my entire life. I get on. I get off. I enjoy the trip. I hate the trip. It’s fun. It’s a slog. I hate it. I love it. But, one thing never changes. I’ll be riding it until the day I die.
“God is Not Dead”. It’s a movie…watch it.
Did you watch it?
It got just 15% on the Tomatometer …. although the audience score was 77%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqfQGb17jrQ
The TV series “Lucifer” suggests that Hell is a horrible place. From outside the cells, it looks like a poorly kept, cinder-block prison. Inside a cell, a given inmate spends his sentence living and re-living the worst moments of his life, such as the time one escaped a burning car but left another to die, hearing his screams of pain, abandonment and betrayal over and over again, moment after moment, day after day. Inside the cell the inmate experiences punishment exactly like it happened during their life, with appropriate tastes, smells, sights, sounds and sensations. They think again what they thought then, know what they knew then and so forth, feeling any shame, guilt and horrible understanding as they did before, repeatedly.
Lucifer’s job skills include learning what the inmate wants most, their deepest, often darkest desire. He can then fashion an appropriate punishment / nightmare as required.
The part I’m not sure about is that the cell doors are unlocked, and the inmates can leave at any time. They are there because they KNOW what they’ve done, who they’ve hurt and how they hurt them, and the punishment is something they devise themselves. They stay until THEY have expiated their guilt through their suffering.
This is where I part company, because I think scum like Hillary can always justify what they’ve done in their own minds, and would therefore be exempt from punishment for it.
” … what exactly are you looking for?” —- HF
Hmmmm. OK, there’s this verse in Matthew;
“For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”
I would like it if Jesus continued as follows;
“My beloved, Mount Sinai vanished this morning, and what was left in its place was a perfectly smooth, polished stone base measuring four miles square. The time is coming when a people called Americans will find that Mount Sinai landed near a place that will be called Newark, New Jersey. The learned men of that day will find that the bottom of the mountain is also completely smooth and polished, and that the bottom of the mountain in New Jersey perfectly matches the polished plain nearby. Men of renown will be able to align the mountain and the plain, looking at it rock crystal by rock crystal. As I just said, if you have faith, you can move mountains. I moved Mount Sinai to New Jersey to show how easy it is, and to prove that I am God.”
Yeah, that would work for me.
Thanks for stirring the pot Stucky. I got an email today from a friend reflecting on what he was doing on new years eve these past 6 decades. Today he is a Permanent Deacon in the Roman Catholic Church. I would send this to him but he believes strongly that Jesus is the only truth and there are no others. I think you only needed number 5 to convince a reasonable man. But life isn’t trial by jury so reasonable man doesn’t enter in to it.
If he’s a permanent deacon in the Roman Catholic Church he must believe the Pope is the truth.
All eternity comes down to one question: “Who do you say Jesus Christ is?”
Very Simple, believe what you want, it’s your decision. It’s call free will or FREEDOM.
All eternity comes down to one question: “Who do you say ALLAH (Peace Be Upon Him) is?”
See what I did there?
Wrong question, that faith is of men.
If choosing Jesus Christ as lord and savior or going to hell for eternity is “free will,” then the logic of the IRS is right. The income tax really is voluntary.
Ferreira: There’s a saying in here: “Mountains and rivers can be moved but men’s nature cannot be moved”. Neeson’s character, in “Silence.”
What if He said,
verily I say unto you that I shall take a Physarum polycephalum, much smaller than a mustard seed and it shall create for you routes and highways, it shall teacheth Japanese engineers how to reroute traffic jammeths and navigate shallow channels though it be without a mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/feb/18/slime-mould-rail-road-transport-routes
We haven’t even begun to investigate the mysteries of creation, we’re the proverbial child on the sand at the edge of the sea thinking that his bucket and shovel are the entirety of the world.
When admin lets us know Stucky has sent $10,000 for his time posting his views on this site I will give him a thumbs up rating.
Either I’m up way too early and am the first to read your post, or 99% of TBP could care less.
But let me address at least of your “skepticism “. HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN US A BIBLE WITHOUT ERRORS
Well, He did. If you want to be skeptical, then you choose (yes, a God given right) to be just that. But if you take the time to research, understand, evaluate and decipher, then you will find the truth. Take for example, Jesus, before His assention into heaven, was speaking to “the twelve” ( the 12 apostles) but everyone who has read the bible clearly understands that Judas hanged himself so there could only be 11. Well, lets put that into human language. If you follow college sports, you know there is a conference called “The Big Ten”. But how many universities are part of the Big Ten? 14! You don’t say “The Big Ten + 4”. No, a number has become the name of that conference, hence “the twelve”. I suggest you go to WVBS.org if you want explanations of what many call contradictions and so many other topics, i.e., evolution vs creation, proof God exists, the path to salvation, etc.
I haven’t the room to address all the questions you put out there (which in my opinion, only encourages disbelief, hence a turning from God and a more corrupt world) but I truly hope you sincerely look for the Truth, and it will be revealed to you.
TJ…..one doesn’t need religion or God to be a good person, or not to be corrupt, etc.
Then what is behind it all?
Years ago I read a study of recidivist killers and they all thought they were good persons. They would kill an elderly shopkeeper simply because they ‘knew’ the shopkeeper would shoot and kill them. It was what they learned in an earlier life.
But … one does need Jesus for salvation. Yes, good people exist without Jesus (religion) but, they won’t be saved. It is not about being good.
“saved”……….???????????????
that is BS; a default position, if you will.
saved from what?
Someone that killed hundreds of people and later joins the fold, sees the light, accepts Christ and confess his sins is then saved. (I am ecstatic seeing all the justice)
OTOH, we have an honorable guy that never harmed/abused/etc. anyone, but does not accept Christ, so this person is not ‘saved’ and goes to hell.
That is what you call a ‘Just’ God?; someone to be admired?
You must think I am severely stupid.
Saved from the eternal destruction that falls on those who are not saved unless they have a led perfect and sinless life.
“OTOH, we have an honorable guy that never harmed/abused/etc. anyone,”
Who is this honorable person you speak of? I want to meet him. I must be living wrong to never have met someone like that. God knows, I don’t fit that bill.
Amen…Took the words right out of my mouth!
My reply was to:
Anonymous… “good people exist without Jesus, but they won’t be saved. “
Good peeps exist w\o health insurance, too. It’s not about being good…it’s about being good little germans. Who “save” themselves by giving themselves away. In the tell sense, too. Sieg heil.
TJ appeals to authority then proceeds to jerking off..
All I can say is…Welcome to the club Brother!
Yours with the Unmerciful Odin,
RiNS
“But let me address at least of your “skepticism “. HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN US A BIBLE WITHOUT ERRORS
Well, He did.”
The delusion runs strong in you.
—–
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man.” —- James 1:13
“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.” —- Gen 22:1
Pray tell, how can God both never tempt man, and then tempt Abraham?
——
“In the third year of Asa king of Judah began Baasha the son of Ahijah to reign over all Israel in Tirzah, twenty and four years … [then] Baasha rested with his ancestors and was buried in Tirzah.” —- 1 Kings 15:33
“In the six and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa Baasha king of Israel came up against Judah, and built Ramah, to the intent that he might let none go out or come in to Asa king of Judah.” —- 2 Chron 16:1
Basha dies. Nine years after he’s dead he builds Ramah. Pray tell, how does that happen?
————————
I could go on all day. Do you want to play? Keep in mind I need to find ONLY ONE error to lay waste to your belief in Bible inerrancy!
“I haven’t the room to address all the questions you put out there (which in my opinion, only encourages disbelief,”
“CITIZEN STUCKY! NO MORE QUESTIONS!! BELIEVE WHAT WE TELL YOU!!!”
That was one big maroon comment you made. Perhaps the most maroonish ever posted here.
Questions encourage unbelief? What are you afraid of? Perhaps you faith is paper thin.
Well said TJ. That was a great example of how study under the tuteledge of the Holy Spirit will produce understanding.
And as for miracles the author said he needed to believe, Jesus said they would lead no one to faith. We are given evidence for this in the resurrection. A story Jesus told the disciples about Lazarus and the rich man was told for the express purpose of revealing to them that even if a man were to raise from the dead (Jesus) they still would not believe. He did and most still don’t.
Because faith is a gift from God given to those who will receive it. No one who rejects the gift has it. ie the requests in the article for naturally perceived works to produce your trust in Him. Miracles have never built faith in anyone. That’s because that was never their purpose. Their true purpose was to show them, and those who read about them, that miracles can never create faith in the one who experiences them. Because the miracles affect the natural senses. And heaven can only be known through the spirit.
So these miracles you ask for are really foolishness to the very people who say they need them to believe. Just look at how you describe God’s not doing them. When the resurrection is the most provable event in history.
The story Jesus told in Luke16 is proof that the miracles God worked for Israel was never for the purpose of producing faith in God for those who experienced them. Because the faith that saves comes by hearing and hearing(that is, the ability to hear) comes through the word of God. A personal word from Him to each of us.
I pray you all hear His voice personally to you before Jesus comes for His bride.
Blessings:-}
I know I told this here once before but it bears repeating.
About 15 years ago I was going through an existential crisis- doing something I didn’t want to be doing to earn a living, thinking about things that weren’t bringing me any joy, having a beautiful and loving family and spending all of my time away from them, dealing with unresolved issues from my past, not getting enough exercise, eating and drinking too much, all the typical first world problems we seem to deal with these days if we don’t make the right kind of choices in our lives.
I’m coming out of my office in the evening, the sky is that rare lavender color it gets when there’s not a cloud in the sky and a fat, full Moon is rising just above the horizon, the color of orange sherbet. As I walked to my car and looked up at the wonder of it all a flock of starlings passed in front of the Moon, intertwining in flight like a well choreographed ballet, twisting and weaving into and around each other, creating this black veil that pulsed and waned before my eyes. The entire time the only thought going through my mind was “If you are there, why don’t you show yourself to me?”.
Me, asking God to prove himself. Instead of leaving me in awe at what I was seeing, instead of appreciating the sheer beauty of what was clearly something far more complex in it’s simplicity than I could ever fathom if I gave my entire life to it, I’m like a spoiled child wailing to his parents for some thing he hasn’t earned or deserves while being given everything. I climbed into the car and began to drive away, towards home, never once thinking about the wife I was far to lucky to deserve, the children I couldn’t have come up with in my wildest dreams, a beautiful home in a wonderful town, with every possible advantage and possession any man could ever hope for and feeling this deep, self-centered black hole of need for God- the creator of everything- to respond to me personally at my most undeserving moment.
As I pulled onto the highway headed home I merged with all the other cars and began to drive north and my thoughts were so singularly focused on this one demand- SHOW YOURSELF!- I could almost hear it when on the overpass above the highway in that same nano-second of making that spoiled and childish demand a tractor trailer passed overhead as my car drove underneath and on it’s side was this-
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In that same instant, at sixty miles an hour before I even came out from underneath that overpass every last bit of dread, of unease, sadness, frustration and unhappiness was lifted, gone as if it hadn’t even been there at all and in it’s wake came a flood of memories, emotions and images of every good thing in my life, the entire panopticon of my life illuminated and I began to laugh out loud, so hard I thought I might not catch my breath. it was as if the best father in the world had delivered the ultimate gift to a cranky toddler at just the right moment to fix everything- and it did. It was the ultimate punch line to the single best set-up ever written in my life story and I will always be grateful for that dirty tractor trailer delivering whatever the load was to wherever it was going.
Maybe BB was driving it, who knows.
I have never doubted for even a second since that time, no matter what has come at me, no matter the loss, no matter the failure or sadness and I realized that every single thing that we experience in our lives is nothing more than a proof of our Creator’s love for us, so much greater, so much more in tune and aware than all of us could be throughout all time in all efforts combined to understand Him on our level. And maybe I see patterns because I am looking for them, but maybe, just maybe I see them because they are there and we were designed by our creator to find them.
Thank -you for helping to remind me again of my true purpose in life, Stucky. Your post was another gift from God, like that truck. You made my day.
Blessings on you and your house.
What if you saw a different semi truck drive by? One that said —– Safe Affordable Trucking Across Northamerica —- (SATAN, for the dimwitted) What then? lol
Only YOU could turn a seemingly mundane event … a truck rolls by …. and turn it into a lovely story.
It’s hard for me to imagine that my convoluted ramblings could make your day. I’m just a hack. I cannot recall ever helping someone re-find their purpose. Wow!! You gave me the same gift … you made my day!
“I’m just a hack”
Uh huh. Right.
Never bullshit a bullshitter Mr. Stucky. You’re a thinker, that’s for sure. And you love to see the shit fly. That makes you a thinking shit disturber. But a hack? Ummm…. no.
“What if you saw a different semi truck drive by? One that said —– Safe Affordable Trucking Across Northamerica —- (SATAN, for the dimwitted) What then? lol”
Lol, indeed! Are this fast on your feet verbally, too? (meaning in an in person discussion) I love it?
Really don’t mind if you sit this one out.
My words but a whisper your deafness a SHOUT.
I may make you feel but I can’t make you think.
Your sperm’s in the gutter your love’s in the sink…ronicity. ♪♫♪ she’s a brick…house. she’s mighty, mighty, just lettin’ it all hang out….
Jung took a flier off the poetic end of the pool. And drowned in that siren serenade marinade. (But it’s true, lots of lovely sirens in that end of the pool.)
We all know how crazy scientologists are.
But it has nothing on Christianity. I mean, raise the dead? Cure blindness? Water into wine? Walk on water? Feed the masses with a tiny bit of food? Come back from the dead? And that does not even count the Old Testament stuff -parting water, an ark big enough to hold all animals, burning bush, etc.
I mean, come on. If a new religion sprang up with stuff like that it would be laughed at as some ridiculous cult.
And the way they explain away Jesus not being saved from execution is extraordinary. He could have used a miracle just about then.
I can feel the downvotes already.
And do not get me started on Mormonism.
rayciss comment – we all know JC was Black (which goes to explain why he couldn’t think of a miracle to save himself).
Not black. A nightlight. Cuz black’s scary.
Impressive
I wondered how you find the time; then I thought holy crap, how he put this together. And the humor always helps.
Innerrancy – exemption from error. Was this word derived from someone just to support scripture?
What are the odds? – Trillions to one or just plain impossible for all the possibilities to occur. It is the one reason to believe.
Bacteria grow in space – opposite to what ‘scientists’ believed (the debate was over – until it wasn’t), and differently than how they grow on earth. Something needs a start, a push to get going.
Deleted the whole dang comment; to preachy. All I really wanted to say was believe in God, receive the Spirit and you will find rest for your soul. The Spirit is the glue that holds it all together. And when the Spirit isn’t enough, there are the semi’s with messages from God, reminding you that you are loved and cared for.
Tell that to the kid with cancer, or whose mom just died in a car crash. Oh, right, God has a plan, and fucking up your life is just part of it.
Of course it feels good to believe. Christians believe, Muslims believe, Hindis, Zoros, etc. They all believe. They all feel great. Wonder which ones are right?
I’m with that.
Just tell a believer that
He who cannot be named.
It is he, the evilest man.
The leader of the Third…
Look, he had the solution to his countries problems.
Everyone loved him at Nuremberg.
Really, he was a ranter.
Was a baptized Catholic so he sits at the right hand of the father. Watch the steam come out their ears when they cannot refute their logic.
I’m not trying to impose my perspective on anyone else, I was just offering my take. And yes, a kid with cancer is a great example of the “Where is God?” kind of question, but it still fits in with the overall picture- every living thing must die. Sad, but true. I think religion is a lot like currencies. We all agree on the basic underlying principle, we all need to believe in something that has no intrinsic value if we ever hope to accomplish anything in life, but which makes living possible. There are varieties of means that all satisfy the same end.
Not trying to impose and then you do… it is just a question of degrees. Bible does the same thing.
What do you mean by impose, Rins? Do you mean that Farmer should say nothing about what he believes?
Well check the dictionary Mary if it helps. An opinion is an imposition. I just found what Farmer wrote amusing in its contradiction.. That’s all.
It’s only an imposition if it’s forced or a demand. Mine was an offering.
Remember agency, RiNS.
Read/Don’t Read, you always have a choice.
Happy New Year!
Knew a good ol’ boy who used to tell people he hoped their ass grew together. You think opinions are impositions…try a colostomy bag. Ha.
First off
Happy New Year Scrabble
Secondly
As to the semantics of agency, mine or otherwise, well my comment is just that of an observer. Whether I listen or not hardly matters. I just found it funny, that and I feel, that someone besides Stucky has to take some piss out of you once in a while.
You’re just too damn nice!
Before you or one of the legion pounce on me, please don’t. It is highly likely I am have said much along those lines in the past..
Some of my faves and go toos!
I hate to break this to you… when I really want to!
If you ask me… then tell you anyways!
We’ll everyone should get the point by now..
Do you believe in currency? I don’t.
Every currency, despite being inanimate, must die, too. Even the dead\er ones walking.
But…paradox does have strewn woodchip effects (“…it may also be true that without this illusion there would be still less freedom in the world.”):
ICHTHYOPHILS AND LIBERALS (or, how delusion & deceit are outside, or dare I say it? above time…in many humans’ framing of the frame, at least…or, possibly, the upside of illusion & taking the absolute longest way home possible, ginning up as much tax loss carry forward christain\etc soldier combat pay possible….)
In “From the Other Shore,” a collection of essays & dialogues written by Alexander Herzen between 1847 & 1851, the radical Russian journalist imagines a dialogue between a believer in human freedom & a sceptic who judges humans by their behavior rather than by their professed ideals. To the surprise of the believer, the sceptic quotes Rousseau’s dictum, ‘Man is born to be free – & is everywhere in chains!’ But the sceptic does so only in order to mock Rousseau’s rousing declaration: ‘I see in it a violation of history & a contempt for facts. I find that intolerable. Such caprice offends me. Besides, it is a dangerous procedure to state, a priori, as a fact, what is really the crux of the problem.What would you say to a man who, nodding his head sadly, remarked that “Fish are born to fly – but everywhere they swim!”?
The sceptic goes on to present the argument of the ‘icthyophil’, who believes that human beings long to be free:
First of all he will point out to you that the skeleton of a fish clearly shows a tendency to develop the extremities into legs & wings. He will then show you perfectly useless little bones that are a hint of the bone of a leg or a wing. Then he will refer to flying fish, which prove, in fact, that *fish-kind* not only aspires to fly, but also can do so on occasion. Having said all this in reply, he will be justified in asking you, in his turn, why you do not demand from Rousseau a justification for his statement that man must be free, seeing that he is always in chains. Why does everything else exist as it ought to exist, whereas with man, it is the opposite?
The question of the sceptic – a stand-in for Herzen himself – has yet to be answered. Writing in his memoir “My Past & Thoughts,” published in eight parts in the 1850’s when he was living in exile, Herzen described how the pursuit of illusions – in modern times, the illusion of ‘humanity’ – has shaped the course of history:
History has developed by means of absurdities; people have constantly set their hearts on chimeras, & have achieved very real results. In waking dreams they have gone after the rainbow, sought now paradise in heaven, now heaven on earth, & on their way have sung everlasting songs, have decorated temples with their everlasting sculptures, have built Rome & Athens, Paris & London. One dream yields to another; the sleep *sometimes* becomes lighter, but is never quite gone. People will accept anything, believe in anything, submit to anything & are ready to sacrifice much; but they recoil in horror when through the gaping chink bwtween two religions, which lets in the light of day, there blows upon them the cool wind of reason….
This is only to reaffirm the sceptic’s diagnosis. Ichthyophils are devoted to their species as they believe it ought to be, not as it actually is or as it truly wants to be. Ichthyophils come in many varieties – the Jacobin, Bolshevik & Maoist, terrorizing humankind in order to remake it on a new model; the neo-conservative, waging perpetual war as a means to universal democracy; liberal crusaders for human rights, who are convinced that all the world longs to become as they imagine themselves to be.
Perhaps the most remarkable ichthyophils are the Romantics, who believe human individuality is everywhere repressed. Among them is none so well known as the author of “On Liberty” (1859), a seminal statement of ichthyophil philosophy. As Herzen summarized this view, John Stuart Mill was:
Horrified by the constant deterioration of personalities, taste & style, by the inanity of men’s interests & their absence of vigour; he looks clearly, & sees clearly that everything is becoming shallow, commonplace, shoddy, trite, more ‘respectable,’ perhaps, but more banal…he says to his contemporaries: ‘Stop! Think again! Do you know where you are going? Look: *your soul is ebbing away.*’
But why does he try to wake the sleepers? What path, what way out, has he devised for them?…Modern Europeans, he says, live in vain unrest, in senseless changes: ‘In getting rid of singularities we do not get rid of changes, so long as they are performed each time by *everyone.* We have cast away our father’s individual, personal way of dressing, & are ready to change the cut of our clothes two or three times a year, but only so long as everybody cjanges it; & this is done not with an eye to beauty or convenience but for the sake of change itself!’… So we have come back & are facing the same question. On what principle are we to wake the sleeper? In the name of what shall the
‘flabby personality, magnetized by trifles, be inspired to be disconnected with its present life of railways, telegraphs, newspapers & cheap goods?’
Ichthyophils imagine that human beings want a life in which they can make their own choices. But what if they can be fulfilled only by a life in which they follow each other? The majority who obey the fashion of the day may be acting on a secret awareness that they lack the potential for a truly individual existence.
Liberalism – the ichthyophil variety, at any rate – teaches that everyone yearns to be free. Herzen’s experience of the abortive European revolutions of 1848 led him to doubt that this was so. It was because of his disillusionment that he criticized Mill so sharply. But if it was true that Mill was deluded in thinking that everyone loves freedom, it may also be true that without this illusion there would be still less freedom in the world. The charm of a liberal way of life is that it enables most people to renounce their freedom unknowingly. Allowing the majority of humankind to imagine they are flying fish even as they pass their lives under the waves, liberal civilization rests on a dream.” ~ “The Silence of Animals” John Gray
Good stuff, from the 1850’s, Maynard. It ain’t new. It’s the same ol’ herd of gnu’s. Oscar Wilde(was a)beest. And the 9th Marquess of Queensberry shot him down. Dunno if he mounted Dorian Gray’s head on his wall, or not. Maybe he just settled for a mirror. Lol…
Hardscrabble Farmer!
Calling Hardscrabble Farmer!!!!!!!
Translate, please.
I thought that was pretty straight forward.
Reading i forget is like reading Blood Meridian, you have to give it your full attention if you want to get everything out of it, but it is always worth it- mostly.
There’s a small movie that came out a couple of years ago called Collateral Beauty and it echoes i.f.’s post in that we all come up with rationalizations to get through our lives- some of us gravitate towards collective illusions, some go inward and make up their own narratives but there’s no “real” answers, only whatever gets you though the night.
It’s alright.
Alright?
(DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID THERE?)
“-mostly”
Sales mgr types, marshalling their manageds for hoped for top cuts of commission, like to rah-rah pep rally stuff like this:
“If you’re not rejected* at least three times per week-day-hour (whatever frame), you’re not really trying.”
*Or misunderstood. Or marginalized, or demonized, or ostracized ∞ or peered at with hard eyes by the peers, sittin’ on the piers of their bays, with spears ready….ha
And when the pantry’s empty, & the stomach’s growling, utilitarian ballast like that might keep the ship from going down. Might. But more often, won’t.
But it ain’t the only way. Play & rejection don’t overlap until some 3rd party gets inside that headspace. T’irds are good at playspace invasion. Surgical extraction of the alien time. If you got the time, preloaded at the factory. & the luck, scattered randomly by the chipper. Until then, generic you aren’t really trying (it might not be in generic ya’)…to have fun.
I liked Collateral Beauty. But do you think that fracture was a rationalization? I’d say it was breakage. Anybody can break. Sometimes it mends. Sometimes it doesn’t. I was glad to see the Hollywood happy mending.
Sometimes people say I remind them of Hey, Hey Johnny. Maybe the spectacles. Maybe the hair.
Not sure everybody agrees it’s 2018. But I am sure that whatever the agreements various are, “the systems,” are just agreed upon conventions. “As if.”
Let’s see if the scene is out there…nope (just a piece, re “time” – the other bit had to do with the arbitrarily agreed upon definition of a yard, 3’, & the arbitrariness of coach requiring each to get his hair cut to no longer than his dick):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuAtOMGyUx8
alvin the chip munk
it’s funny – not – how one insect can damage so much beatle granary….
I see what you did there.
I thought you might.
The hunter hunts…himself. Else it’s just so much spray & pray (wherein some stand-in prey is, perhaps, whacked).
A possible gig for you (I find the prospect quite compelling, & I’m not ordinarily tattoo appreciative):
Me neither. But yes.
https://canadiangunblog.com/category/beauty-and-the-beast/
I buried my son, my sister was killed by a drunk driver, served in the military, and a thousand other situations that are common to man. But I never once lost my faith in Christ. In fact he is the only reason I was able to master the art of life without giving up and going the way of the dinosaur. Life is not about this world, it is about placing our riches in the world to come, through His blood and our works done for Him and Him alone. You either understand these things or you don’t. As Paul said, “To those that are lost the Cross is foolishness, but to those that are saved, it is the power of God.” Its your move. thanks
I am sorry about the loss of your sister, and son. Sons should bury their parents, not the other way around.
“Life is not about this world, it is about placing our riches in the world to come”
Would you still love God if there were no riches to come?
Eternal glory. Eternal suffering. Aren’t those the two reasons pretty much most believers love God? If so, isn’t belief rather self-serving?
This reminds me that over 40 years ago a humanities teacher said to us that the worst thing black slaves in the USA were given was Christianity. It taught them to eat the shit sandwich while on earth and then they would have the glory in heaven. I wonder how things would have turned out if they realized that things only mattered while they were alive, and if they wanted better they had to seize it now not wait till after death.
Mentioned this before. The Scorsese flick “Silence.” Feudal destitution in 1640 Buddhist Japan. Here come the Jesuits. Door to door hopium peddlers. Now is horrible, but if you’ll do as we instruct, later will be paradise.
Anyone can be broken. I’ve seen the breakage. I’ve been broken. “O’Brien” can convince that 2+2 is really truly 5…if it takes away the pain.
Start early tho, and the hosses can be broken w\o much, or any, pain at all.
Interesting, the juxtaposed short\long time preference ‘the next life’ sets up.
Well put Hondo!
All of them are rite.
God created life and they are forever connected so as a man sins his sins takes away a piece of Gods goodness and since life being eternaly tied to God well life cannot allow God to ever be depleted so life replenishes God through sickness, accidents and what not.
God does not destroy…. it’s all of our sins that is causing all of the misery in this life…
God can only Love ….
I also LOVE the response to any questions about why awful things happen, and why God does not intervene:
“Who are YOU to question the ways of God!”
Reminds me of parents telling their kids “Because I said so!”.
At least parents have reasons they can explain if the feel like it. God – not so much. We just have to take “their” word for it – God has a reason for the black plague, the tsunamis, the death of a child, wars. Right. Works for me.
Awful things happen because they have to. Everything is in balance in a closed system and we definitely inhabit one of those. The problem we have is that it must be apprehended to our satisfaction, to our benefit and according to our desires. The world doesn’t work that way. Every life ends in death, no exceptions.. Every joy is judged as it relates to every sadness, lest there be nothing to compare it to.
I know that’s not the answer you were looking for, but it’s all I’ve got.
HSF – not looking for an answer. Nature is what it is. For some misfortunates, there is no balance, it is all bad. For others, it is almost all good.
I believe in the ability of individual humans to improve themselves, to grow and develop. That is a core of my belief system. I also believe very few will look to do that, and will stumble through life blind to those possibilities.
That’s true.
Llpoh, I read your comments as someone who calls it like he sees it, after a boatload of life’s many experiences with other people and the world around you.
Serious question here.
What were your experiences in your younger years, as taught by your elders, on the concepts of spirituality among your own people, and how we should respect and interact with what we find in nature? Was there any reverence toward spiritual concepts larger than man?
I got a little bit of an idea on your thoughts in FM’s post about hunting, and your thoughts about various religions here, but would appreciate hearing more from the culture you are a part of. Thanks in advance.
LGR – despite common belief, Indians generally do not dance around fires, chant, and take peyote looking for visions. You need only look at the conditions of the reservations, etc., to understand that the idea that Indians value nature is contradicted by the amounts of trash they toss around. Certain Indians of course are trying to lead the rest out of the abyss, but mostly Indians are lost.
The sad fact is that Indians are not deep thinkers, by and large, and are not teaching their kids much of value at all. They are wallowing in self-pity, and look to any excuse for not getting ahead.
Anything I have accomplished has been as a result of personal endeavor, introspection, and hard-work, and certainly not as a result of anything taught me or shown me by my family or community. In fact, it has been done in spite of those things, which were almost universally wrong. Honesty, integrity, personal responsibility, valuing education and hard work, etc., were not taught or were not understood. For instance, honesty and integrity were moveable concepts – do not cheat a friend but everyone else is fair game is an example of such. Etc.
And so personally, I believe in the ability of man or woman to develop if they determine to. It is easier with good role models and teachers, which are almost entirely lacking in Indian communites. But it can be done even without such. But the vast majority of people will not.
Interesting. I didn’t want to make any assumptions, and you gave me a good perspective from your personal experiences. Appreciate the response.
Llpoh
That is a fascinating comment.
It got me to thinking about what are loosely termed “native populations” around the world. As Eurasian peoples gradually developed societies of increasing complexity and knowledge, other humans maintained simple cultures strongly tied to the natural environment. What was the spark that set the Eurasians on paths of scientific research, exploration, the arts, and all the other markers of advanced culture? It seems to me this fundamental difference still drives tension in the world, even in the 21st century.
If the Choctaw people are such degenerates, why do you jump on the Indian bandwagon every time the opportunity presents itself ? Is it or is it not a source of pride for you and your family?
I had a completely different experience. As a young man I was fortunate enough to land a position with a company that had a tuition reimbursement program, paying for my BS in EET. Information such as you’ve described can be made to an individual or group but how it is applied in future endeavors is entirely up to that person in singularity. The difference between right and wrong is not that difficult to understand once the foundation has been laid and its structure began solidly, with or without the Bible as a guide.
I blame many of the failures you mentioned on public schools and the moral decay displayed daily in the media and various other sources our children are exposed to. I too, have seen first hand, much of the accounts you mentioned, but I can only affect those within my immediate sphere of influence. I have not given up, I do still try…… every single day.
Choctaw!
Pride at being an Indian? The concept eludes me. It is what it is. If I jump on the bandwagon it is to provide counterpoint to other positions. I understand Indians perhaps a bit better than most. I understand why they are where they are, I understand the horrible things that have been done to them, and I understand that they need to move on.
The difference between right and wrong must be hard to understand, given so few do.
A key development in a person is to be able to do do the right thing even when it is painful or at personal cost. I meet very few people indeed that have developed that ability. People, often, lie, cheat, steal when it is painful to do otherwise. They clearly do not understand right from wrong, as if a person understands it, they act upon such understanding.
And my experience is that so called “Christians” are as undeveloped as any other group in that regard, if not moreso. The hypocrisy runs deep.
Balance in this closed system of human depredation against humans is a swinging pendulum in the pit. It’s two ships approaching, overlapping, loosing broadsides, passing in the night. Then swinging back to do it again. Humanity’s balance is imbalance. It’s fight club. Schizo maniacs. Heroes all, or mostly anyway, in their own fevered minds.
Sovereignty, is the key word you obviously don’t understand. And He is the only one that has unbridled Sovereignty. So you go ahead and question Him, doubt Him, and ridicule Him. Actually He could care less. He fulfilled His obligation to us by using His Son, two boards, and three rusty nails to build a bridge out of this world and into His Kingdom. So again, go ahead, walk right up to that blood stained bridge, piss on it and condemn your eternal soul by turning your back on the only passageway out of this worthless world and into a Kingdom He prepared for you where the ear has not heard, the eye has not seen, nor the mind imagined what awaits those that love the Lord. Go ahead, continue the mockery of His son and see what happens on that Day. It’s you move. thanks
“Actually He could care less.”
If I were to believe, Scripture says the angels in heaven would rejoice. If I die in unbelief, I will be sentenced to hell, even though the Bible says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Either way, God does care … your comment makes no sense.
Ridicule? Pissing? You are either suffering from a delusional episode or, you just revel in hyperbole. Either way, thanks for playing. Your turn.
Hondo, my fellow believer, I must confess to my occasional hypocrisy from T2T. But, with the comments in your 2 posts here, how do you reconcile your belief and faith in God and Christ, with your comments on the Skid Row thread, about how we should deal with the homeless, and the problems they pose?
I’m curious, because it seems like you’re trying to spread the Gospel here, which I hear.
Is there a conflict? Or did I misinterpret, one or more of the comments I’ve seen?
Sovereign immunity, actually. Do as I say, not as I do. Double (at the least) standards. Forked tongues that’ll fook ya – will full dispensations & honors.
LLPOH, this is a perfect example of how the logical argument about God gets derailed immediately. There are different levels of perception that all get merged and break the logic before it can get started. I have no answer about the little kids with cancer anymore than I do about HSF’s GOD truck. There are two distinct possibilities: It is all random, or there is some purpose. This is the ONLY argument that exists at all levels: the personal, the entirety of humanity and the Cosmic.
Without God (purpose) every event in all the Cosmos MUST be equally and entirely random. The Catholics speak of Cafeteria Catholicism (where you pick and choose what you like)…I would suggest that nearly every atheist in history has had the same framework in his belief. But logic does not care–my statement is logically rock solid. EVERYTHING in a random cosmos MUST be EQUALLY and ENTIRELY random.
The question I would have you ask yourself–with your typical brutal honesty–Is that the way life seems to you?
Yes, generally I think things are random. Not to say sentient beings cannot influence outcomes. For instance, if you drink a bottle ofBeam every day, you are more likely to get cancer of the liver. If you work hard and save, you are more likely to be better off financially.
If there is a God, there is no evidence I can see that he gives a damn what happens one way or the other. All the praying and faith do not seem to affect wordly outcomes one iota. Devout Christians get slaughtered all the time, have horrible famines and disease outbreaks, etc. And Christians still believe.
I think it is equally likely that perhaps the right religion has yet to be found. Maybe we should be worshipping a certain group of chipmunks, and if we do all of the world’s ills might disappear.
So it is clear to me that either God cares not one whit, or we have not determined who he is or what he wants.
I am thinking we give the chipmunks a try. The others do not seem to be working out.
Llpoh
Imagine a world where good people all lived fabulous lives and only bad people had kids that died of cancer. The good people would not be able to stay good because they would be infected with the diseases of pride, arrogance, and self-righteousness, becoming insufferable spritual prigs full of condemnation of the bad people.
The bad people would have no hope of redemption or the second chance, their lives remaining devoid of potential because of the inevitable responses of either complete passivity or active destruction.
As you know, lack of trouble and challenges in life does not create thoughtful and empathetic human beings who can reach their full potential – quite the opposite. You can see this readily in children of parents who raised them to experience as little discomfort as possible, and who then go through life unable to deal with challenges in a healthy way without a lot of hard work, perhaps in a therapist’s chair.
The Bible says God makes it rain on the just and the unjust. For good or ill, life is a crapshoot. However, if we live long enough we accept, in humility, that our control is limited and life on this earth is fundamentally a tragedy that can be transcended best with love.
Gayle – so you are saying I am right. I am sure if everyone was kind and loving, the world would be better. But that is not going to happen.
That was beautifully written, Gayle.
“…still believe.”
Festinger. “When Prophecy Fails” (1956). Cognitive dissonance: people don’t deal with conflicting beliefs & perceptions by testing them against facts. They reduce the conflict by reinterpreting facts that challenge the beliefs to which they are most attached. T.S. Eliot, “Burnt Norton,” humankind cannot bear very much reality.
“Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal & undeniable evidence,, that his belief is wrong; what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing & converting other people to his view.”
As for chipmunks, the population of the few that live in a stacked rock wall here has exploded. I keep a seed-feeder full, & they clean up the spillage. If the ‘munks were inclined to religion, that feeder, or maybe me (cuz they wait & watch, patiently – penitently? Nah – as I fill it up) would call something god. But they aren’t religious, just studious cheek-pouch fillers.
The ‘munks are also a protected species in this state. God loves ’em.
“Reminds me of parents telling their kids “Because I said so!”.
Should not parental wisdom take preference over childish pursuit ?
All religions are merely “conduits” in which to help understand spiritual concepts that cannot be proven or disproven. No religion is perfect in its definitions of spirituality, but almost all religions support the idea of an “afterlife”, the immutability of the human soul, except for jews, who believe that, if a soul is “bad” enough, it can be extinguished.
Energy is neither created nor destroyed, but can be re-purposed via the proper conduits.
Once there was no universe.
Where did the energy come from? Ok, God. Nevertheless, whether god, or no god, energy was “created” … at least once. Why not again?
God may be the wellspring of all energy . Who can know ? Some questions bear no answers. Seek peace instead.
“And God said let there be light(energy). And there was light”.
No God, no peace. Know God, know peace.
Blessings:-}
Christianity is a religion of faith.
Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
There are 229 verses in the NT containing the word “faith” (KJV) and only 5 containing the word prove (none of which is used in context of proving God or Christ).
So what is faith?
One way to define it would be the willingness to act on the invisible, the things you cannot see, the supernatural, as though they were the visible things you can see and know in the natural world.
Jesus demonstrated this vividly at the Sermon on the Mount -actually afterward at Bethsaida- where he fed a crowd of 5000 men and probably many more women and children with two fish and five loaves of bread.
He didn’t act on the sight of only two fish and five loaves that could be seen, the proven amount, but acted faith God would provide enough to feed them because he believed, he had faith,not because he saw proof of it in front of him.
Proof is given by Faith and comes as a result of acting on it before proof is given.
‘Proof is given by Faith and comes as a result of acting on it before proof is given.”
So, if I have no faith (doubts) because I see no proofs, then I need to somehow (how?) acquire faith (belief) … and then the proofs will come (even though I no longer need proofs since I have faith)???
That’s convoluted and messed up, man!! Are you smoking weed?
If you have no faith, you cannot know God.
Faith is acquired by getting results to prove it is real, usually in small steps, and if you have no faith you will never act on it and never get the proof you are looking for.
I don’t smoke weed, or use recreational drugs including tobacco and alcohol. My faith in God freed me from those things, to which I was once a slave, many decades ago. Faith will provide you with Truth, and knowing Truth will set you free.
God is a chipmunk. If you do not know that, you cannot know god.
The revised Lord’s prayer:
Our father, who art in oak trees
Alvin be thy name
Thy will be done
One earth as it is in hollows
Give us this day our daily acorn
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who steal our acorns
And lead us not to false squirrels
And deliver us from cats
For thine is the warm burrow
And the mouth full of nuts
Forever and ever. Amen
I think that should serve to eradicate all of the world’s ills, if we just say it once all together. Worth a try, right?
Llpoh – my loyal and faithful servant! At last, the truth shall be revealed to all, and eternal peace shall come to man. Man needs but only to follow the Chipmunk Commandments to reach the Holy Burrow:
1) take no squirrel before me
2) share thy acorns
3) covet not thy neighbor’s acorns
4) shoot not thy chipmunk
5) honor thy chipmunk
6) provide thy chipmunk seeds and nuts in winter
7) keep thee chipmunk day holy
I, thy Lord Alvin, do so command thee, and by keeping these Holy Commandments, the Holy Burrow shall be thine, forever and ever!
I tried to not respond to this … don’t want to run up the comment count unnecessarily.
But, you rarely do that sort of thing. I think it’s hilarious. I just read it to Ms Freud, and it cracked her up. She already asked me to send it to her daughter … who just so happens to love those fucken rats with bushy tails. Nice job, man!
Also, the 7 Squirrel Commandments below … that’s pretty good and funny also. (See, I didn’t make that a separate post!)
Stuck – all you monkeys were still asleep. I had time on my hands as it is raining here. I laughed while I was typing them out. I am heelareeous.
And just imagine what that church choir would sound like.
A guy would have to take a shot to his acorns just to sing in it.
Steve C.
Spring, Texas
I also started a list of alternative Chipmas Songs:
Rudolph the red nosed chipmunk
Hark the hairy chipmunks sing, glory to the chipmunk king
O come all ye chipmunks
Silent chipmunk, holy chipmunk
I am dreaming of a white chipmunk
Oh chipmunk night
I would rather live my life as if there is a god and die to find out there isn’t, than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.
Albert Camus
Beautiful quote sir!
So fear is the reason the believe in God. Alrighty then..
But pretty sure Camus went to hell. He was not a believer but a pretend to believer.
Pascal’s wager: buy lotto tickets. Can’t win if you don’t play.
Christianity as a means of explaining God is dying out in the mind of man. Islam is in the same boat.
To get a better grasp of the concept of God a new form of thinking is needed… and it is coming. Our present form of thinking is in polarities and our language reflects this. Up down, good bad, left right, us them, democrat republican are examples of thinking in the category of polarities. This is dyadic binary thinking. God is more the Dodecad reflecting perfection and autocracy. The human is far from an entity of perfection.
What will help man to better understand the concept of God and to solve our seemingly complex social and economic problems is to begin thinking in Triadic terms. Think of a triangle with the three points of the base as the affirming, denying, and reconciling field of dynamism, the apex as the Laws of Nature and the resultant point from the apex to a place in the triangular base as the resultant. This refers to relatedness and the persistence in time of this result leads to the Tetrad of subsistence leading to a better structure of unity.
Man is really still a primitive entity. We are part of the Biosphere, that thin cover of organic material around the earth. The biosphere is considered a complete organism and in terms of cells which constitute organic life man is considered the brain cells of this organism. A new science called Biospherology is gaining traction and this science is raising some interesting questions about the relatedness of man, the earth, the sun, and the universe. All this is leading to a new and more acceptable conception of God and man’s place in the universe.
So as we see religion dying out look for something far more realistic to take it’s place. Question is… is man ready for a more comprehensive truth?
We are not our body or our mind which are products made by the energies of the Sun and Earth. So what are we and what is our purpose? This is found out by those who break their attachment to materialism and search the relatedness of all that exists.
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Given the Matthew was written 100 years after the presumed date of Jesus’ death, by a man who never met Christ, then perhaps we need take heed that that man is not deceiving us. What a logical quandry.
When I was in 3rd grade and collecting perfect attendance pins for Sunday school attendance I heard about the god that rewards righteous behaviors and punishes sinful humans, I wondered why a certain classmate of mine did not receive his just deserts for his truly bulling behaviors. And then he showed up with his arm in a cast. This was vindication of my childish beliefs to me, yet I was washed with a bit of guilt for imagining bad things coming the way of the rowdy peer of mine. I felt sympathy for him and asked him what happened. He told me to shut the fuk up and mind my own gd business. What I came to believe is that his alcoholic father had broken his arm in an act of discipline. I ask you who was the sinner and who was born with original sin and who held contempt for actions of children?
In my epistemological world of discerning what is justified belief and what is opinion I think of the “proof” of love. I believe love is real, in it’s myriad of forms yet I cannot give you a fact sheet with a formal proof.
John 4:8New International Version (NIV)
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
From this many things flow. No child survives birth without a modicum of love. Call it instinctual, hormonal – whatever – without it, the god head does not exist, and anything is permitted and allowed. And as we learn more about our world, new ways of thinking about god will be told around the campfires; as we improve our myths to reflect the realities around us that are verifiable.
I choose to experience the spiritual connection to a higher power though the study and practice of sacred values passed down over the ages. And I reject false doctrines of false prophets who preach death and destruction as a way to achieve a vaulted immortality.
“I’m not sure why God put men’s testicles in such an open easy-to-attack location. He could have at least made them retractable … and less itchy. This would greatly have helped my unbelief.)”
Stuckey,
I have retractable balls. Down here in South Louisiana it gets so hot in summer that they hang down to my knees. In the wintertime I gets so cold that they retract up so small that if they didn’t itch I could not find them to scratch. Actually it’s by Intelligent design that they do this because viable sperm can only be produced within a certain temperature range. The scrotum acts like a radiator although an intelligent man like yourself already knows this.
Have you ever read the Thomas Jefferson Bible?
TJ took paper, scissors and glue and cut and pasted the scriptures from the four Gospels in a way that made sense to him. No miracles, no virgin birth, no resurrection; just the pure teachings of Christ. He claimed that if people would just follow Christ’s teachings there would be peace on Earth, etc. When you get down to it, I believe that’s about al that Jesus was saying.
That’s all I try to do is obey his basic teachings and let Him take care of all the Heaven/Hell, saved/lost BS. Not going to spend the rest of my lie pounding hot sand up my ass trying to appease some angry god who is pissed because of some minor infractions of his supposed will.
Great article.
JR
“I have retractable balls.” LOL!
I have retractable boobs, since they are now made of silicone and placed under my pecs, when it gets cold, my chest contracts. It’s quite uncomfortable. I have been looking for boob warmers that aren’t a joke but no luck, so far. I guess I need to invent them.
Saw a Jefferson Bible in the library … read it for about an hour. Didn’t care for it. I don’t like someone else deciding for me what is relevant, or not.
I can’t tell you how relieved I am to know about your retractable nuts! Life again has meaning for me. ?
TJ: “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding…
{Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823}”
TJ:
One rhetorical question:
Have you ever stood alone, looked to the heavens, and simply asked? “Jesus, if you are real, would you please reveal yourself to me?”
An then, the challenge:
Instead of shaking your fist at God (or all those who believe), quiet yourself down, set aside your anger and defensiveness, and simply listen in the silence. Dude, you’ve been called — quit changing the subject.
Another Sunday morning in the Church of Stucky, he who is vexed by the Bible and the various shades of faith it produces (or destroys). This is not meant to be a criticism or judgment, just an observation.
Stucky one thing you don’t ever address is the Holy Spirit. You are continually trying to find the truth about God through rational analysis and that is why you can never come to a conclusion. God is beyond our ability to comprehend intellectually, although there are plenty of intellectual arguments in favor of the claims made in the Bible. We’d like a man-sized God, but alas, that is not part of the plan.
Most people are able, when properly and rationally taught, to get themselves morally fit. They are good people who generally do no harm and can feel proud of it. They are capable of great achievements that benefit mankind. These people often reject a faith life because they have everything under control and have no need of a Savior.
On the other end of the spectrum are the degenerates who are openly rebellious to moral social norms and who seem to hate God from the bottom of their hearts. Their primary interest is in satisfying the lusts of the flesh and therefore have an aversion to a Savior.
All of us fall somewhere on the spectrum of the goodness of man. What characterizes all of us, however, is spiritual deficiency that we are helpless to fix on our own. Until we grasp the redemptive implications of the death of Christ on the cross, we do not have spiritual rebirth available and will be limited to working out our life through our humanity only. This is what Jesus meant by “You must be born again.” The process is a matter of will for every person, a determination to humble oneself before God. Pride is the greatest hindrance whether one sees him- or herself as a good person or a bad person.
The faith journey is challenging and fascinating. It gives access to another dimension of life, a deepening of observation and wisdom. My pastor says that after walking this life for 20 or 30 years, you begin to look like a Christian. Read Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress for a full description.
So Stucky, I would like to see you do one of your Biblical treatises on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I once read a statement from you that you don’t believe He died to save us from our sins. Since this is the issue central to the whole Christian faith, I’d like to hear your take. Until that is settled, all the other discussions are kind of futile, at least as they relate to Christianity.
Well said, Gayle.
Thank you. Stay warm.
“Stucky one thing you don’t ever address is the Holy Spirit.”
There is but one God; father, son, and Holy Spirit. Speak about one is to speak of all. Right? What should I address?
———-
“You are continually trying to find the truth about God through rational analysis and that is why you can never come to a conclusion. ”
So, is faith irrational? Not trying to find truth about God, at least not in this article. Just better evidence. Speaking of which
— one or two discussed the perfect Bible issue, one mentioned Mohammed in passing. Everything else has been ignored.
———
“God is beyond our ability to comprehend intellectually, ”
So, I should park my brain at the door?
No brain-parking allowed.
As you know, the greatest brains cannot answer the ultimate questions about God: Why is evil permitted? How can election and free will be reconciled? How can we explain God’s seeming capriciousness?
Many people refuse belief because these cannot be answered. Yet God has revealed much about himself to those willing to see and hear. Love, grace and mercy are available to all.
“So Stucky, I would like to see you do one of your Biblical treatises on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Uh huh. You’re not asking for much. Maybe I can work on a cure for cancer at the same time. ?
That’s too big a topic for me. If I were to do anything about Jesus Christ, it would be on whether or not there is evidence he existed.
Well, get crackin’!
Once you get that settled in your mind, you will have an easier time interpreting the Bible. If you decide Christ didn’t exist, or if the things he claimed about himself were delusions of a madman, then most of the claims of the Bible can be rejected or assigned a personal interpretation which makes sense to you. No more fussing around with traditional Christian doctrines needed, and you can move on to other interests.
Or, if you decide the opposite, you will begin studying the Bible in a different way, and you will find many more things to write about. Who knows? You might even experience a miracle along the way.
I have encountered many people who preoccupy themselves with speculation about creation, the flood, the miracles (Jonah, anyone?), the ridiculousness of the virgin birth, original sin, the concept of hell, the rapture, faith vs. works, etc. What they never want to discuss is the accountability of the individual soul before God and the remedies presented in the Good Word for that problem. I count you among those folks, but I respect your struggle. I don’t think God minds your wrestling, but I remind you that Jacob walked with a limp after his wrestling match with God.
“I have encountered many people who preoccupy themselves with speculation about creation, the flood, the miracles (Jonah, anyone?), the ridiculousness of the virgin birth, original sin, the concept of hell, the rapture, faith vs. works, etc.”
Those are all stories in the Bible. Was God preoccupied by including them? Neither is it preoccupation to examine them.
———
“What they never want to discuss is the accountability of the individual soul before God and the remedies presented in the Good Word for that problem.”
What the heck are you talking about? People will be held accountable and wind up either in heaven or hell. The remedy is to accept Christ as Lord and savior. It is discussed here frequently.
Those topics are surely worthy of discussion, deep discussion. I am speaking of those who use these controversies for focus as a way of avoiding the challenges required for their own ongoing spiritual development. Speculating about the flood is a lot easier than feeding the poor.
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
Hebrews
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being.”
Acts
Seek Him and you will find him.
“You are a slow learner, Winston,” said O’Brien gently.
“How can I help it?” he blubbered. “How can i help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two & two are four.”
“Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at the same time. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.”
“O’Brien smiled slightly. ‘You are the flaw in the pattern, Winston. You are a stain that must be wiped out. Did i not tell you we are different from the persecutors of the past? We are not content with negative obedience, nor even with the most abject submission. When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will.”
Stucky – Maybe you can find some crypt notes from Thomas Paine’s “The Age Of Reason” and just cut-and-paste them here.
He covers the New Testament in the second half of the book.
You don’t really even need the crypt notes. It’s a short and easy read.
Steve C.
Spring, Texas
“I choose to experience the spiritual connection to a higher power through the study and practice of sacred values passed down over the ages.”
Not many people in our society are doing that. That is why I am saying that Christianity is dying. The Gospel of Jesus Christ contain these sacred values in the parables that many interpret literally. For example remember the woman that committed adultery and was to be stoned? It was a fact that the woman broke the law. But the Christ was able to stop the stoning? Why? Because everyone sins in one way or another so no one who wanted to stone her was without sin. So she repented and was not condemned. This put what was good as more important than fact.
Now take the administrative laws we live under. By the way these administrative laws, rules, and regulations have no foundation in natural, moral or sacred law. They are man made… made by men of sin. These laws are punitive and there is no forgiveness even if one repents. Do you see the world we live in? Ruled by men of lesser intelligence than the mind of God.
When Christianity with it’s sacred values is finally eradicated from western culture without something equal or better to replace it then it will be Hell on earth. And yes God will be watching.
But I have faith that something better is coming after the fall. Higher minds can see the bigger picture of how unity is created in multiplicity. Multiplicity contains all possibilities and some impossibilities. Man has to play out his impossibilities and his non sacred administrative laws before he sees the darkness in his ways and turns to the light. God does not punish. We punish ourselves.
“Now take the administrative laws we live under.”
You sound remarkably similar to anarchyst.
God can and does rewire and heal our brains…Don’t ask me why he waited 50 years or how it was accomplished…I only know my addiction is gone and I fear him with thanksgiving…
I can never logically get any further than a “First Cause” who/which set the whole setup rolling w/the Big Bang.
Religion is selling
even if its nothing.
A show about nothing can sell like crazy.
I was 43 (25 years ago) when he revealed himself after I cried out in the first sincere (desperate) repentance of my life.
There has been 3 more miracles since then.
I was 43 also, Mark. But it was 17 years ago for me.
I was raised in the Catholic tradition. My 6th grade teacher gave me a good scolding for asking for a better explanation about the popes being infallible. I was already having trouble with their idea of communion and this incident put me on the same road Stucky is on for many years.
Mary,
Too many in my family who fell away from God confused Him with Catholicism. I was one of them and a rock hard case until my own Road to Damascus type experience (not as dramatic but just as supernatural and convincing). Many people who knew me were stunned at my instant conversion and the difference in then and since.
Catholic school in the 50’s was rough…I still have nightmares of giant Penguins wrapping my knuckles with a ruler!
Faith should not be about believing the unbelievable. I am a man of science who doesn’t literally believe most of the miracle stories throughout the Bible. I’m not alone. Thomas Jefferson worked on a version of the New Testament where he removed the miracle stories to leave only the moral teachings.
But this isn’t necessary. There are deep meanings in myths. I don’t believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus; but it’s a story that has huge meaning. It’s more likely, if his tomb was empty, that his followers moved his body to a safer place. Jesus’s followers had just suffered the most humiliating and heart-breaking defeat conceivable. For it to happen to the man in whom his followers could see the divine-itself is beyond horrible. For his followers could see that Jesus and his teachings revealed the “heart of things, ” “the beyond within our midst”, “ultimate being and ultimate reality” and THE MEANING OF LIFE ITSELF! (All of which is to say God.) So yeah, I can believe that Jesus is fully man and fully human. For his followers to see such a humiliating end at the hands of the ham-handed, amoral political authorities is absolutely intolerable! That could not stand!! So, over time, his followers and the early Jesus movement had to protect and preserve his legacy. The resurrection stories served to do this and became biblical canon. They COULD NOT ALLOW his devastating unjust crucifixion to end his story! This is where life and meaning become myth. Could it be any more profound?
Speaking of fully man and fully God, I recently was at the gym and I noticed one of the young gym instructors working with a disabled man. I was close enough to see how attentive, empathetic and supportive this young guy was, like he was bending over backwards to “will the good” for his infirm client. As I was watching, I could see a beauty, an empathy, a goodwill where I suddenly understood that was getting close to the meaning of life-itself and how God really works in the world. The young instructor was RESPONDING TO A NEED so beautifully and his client was willing to receive. I had to move over to a quiet corner of the gym so I could safely let the tears flow. Thanks to education and experience, I was ready and able to see the depth of that moment; the depth of meaning in ordinary events in ordinary setting. I pretty sure that I know what I saw. Similarly, some movies or books bring me close to the depths of meaning and the depths of life-itself.
Might this be what Jesus’s followers saw? Is it really that different to what the followers of Buddha saw?
So God is in plain sight; in acts of kindness, good will and desire for justice for others who we meet. Miracles are not where boulders are moved or where waters are parted but where minds are changed and hearts moved by the deep wisdom, lessons and interactions—-where there are reconciliations between estranged relatives (parable of the prodigal son) for example.
Similarly, the Bible is full of myths, but they are not fruitless.
It’s clear to even conservative scholars that the Christmas stories of Jesus’ birth were added later to complete the “picture.” There’s zero historical evidence of miraculous events occurred anywhere near when Jesus was born. We don’t even know when Jesus was born! Another example, a large number of sayings of Jesus were not likely spoken by Jesus himself but written-in by the early “Jesus movement” or early Church. Read Jesus of Nazareth by Gunther Bornkamm if you can find it. It’s unlikely that Jesus said “I am the the way, the truth…” That saying was only said in the Gospel of John which was most removed from the time of Jesus or some 100 years after Jesus. Such words likely reflect the early Church’s developing dogma. The balance of evidence is that Jesus didn’t claim to be messianic. These are a just a few examples. But isn’t Christmastime really the most wonderful time of the year? Aren’t mine and billions of other people’s lives enriched immensely by these wonderful stories (myths)?? Still convinced that myths don’t have meaning?? 🙂
It’s important to teach these kinds of things otherwise smart young people will continue to be “turned-off” to Christianity because of a “requirement” to believe the unbelievable. It’s so unfortunate and unnecessary.
Also check out my blog “Theology for the 21st Century” at http://gulfcoastcommentary.blogspot.com/2017/08/a-theology-for-21st-century.html
Happy New Year!
Sez Doug..
So Gawd is in plain sight. I’m just in need of sum persuasion…
See moar at my blog..
One thing that has helped me believe in Christ is the ” guilt of sin ” and the ” comdemning power of conscience “.I know all too well the misery of a ” bad ” conscience .Human guilt is real and so is Divine Indignation or Wrath.Faith placed in Christ Jesus and His work on the Cross takes away your sins from God’s sight but also Real Guilt from your conscience.You have a new Status ,new standing and a new Rightousness before God.For lack of better words ” God is on your side “.
‘Human guilt is real ”
Only in the three main monotheistic religions.
You have been ingrained with that belief since childhood via the two big holidays. Why was Jesus born? To save us from our sins. Why did Jesus die? To save us from our sins. You know no other way, may be incapable of reflection on that reality, and might condemn to hell anyone who says differently.
But, tell a billion Chinese, Japs, and basically at least half the world’s population that they are “guilty”, all you will get is blank stares, if not derision.
Asians don’t have consciences? Who knew?
Just. Stop. It.
I’m talking about “guilt” in terms of guilt as the result of sin, even being born into it, before one holy God. That’s what Asians don’t buy into. And you knew that’s what I meant. Nice try, though.
60 mil Chinese Christians and exploding.
In biblical terms this is called Propitiation and Expiation.
So I ask all of you without Christ what do you do with your Real Guilt ?
Remember God’s law or Moral Law is Holy ,Just ,Good and Spiritual .The Moral Law takes into account not only outward conduct but also the thoughts and intends of your / my ?.
You have totally failed to address the issue of whether God actually existed and what his nature might be. If you were able to settle you might have a proper context for the other concerns you raise. Your cart is way in front of your horse. You simply challenging Christianity and/or theism ( no insult, but you failed to make a distinction and there is a huge one) based on your presuppose philosophy of materialism, mordern understanding of oral to text cultures and the reliability of each, and a healthy dose of plain logical error.
Mohammad would be a genius? I’ve read you for a long time and I’m sure you can do better than that.
The Universe is big and emptying purposeless? Based totally on relatively to your own physical size maybe, but no more powerful than my argument that the universe is medium size. As for purposeless this assumption it based again on presumptive atheism. It is not evidence that God does exist it is a description of the cosmos in the absence of a cause or creator. We have no way of knowing if the rest of the universe has a purpose or not. Your assumption.
You’ve only rehashed the low hanging fruit.
I am a post-antitheist largely because of it’s failure of explanatory power, asked and answered literally hundreds of years ago. Here’s my list, it’s not complete and does not give full explanations.
Atheism/anti-theism fails to explain:
1. Double slit experiment that suggests the universe is observe.
2. That there is a universe at all
3. The ultra-powerful power of non material mathematics.
4. The non material power of consciousness (be careful here, I’m not suggesting it is not housed in matter, I’m suggesting it has the ability to turn non-matter into matter) – no cheating by appealing to what you think science might discover in the future. Aka speculative Sci-Fi
5. The most current science I can get a hold of suggests that a state of non-time, non-matter, and non-space. Pre-existed the current state.
6. The Borg-Velenkin theorem proves the infinite regress is not possible.
Last comments; You’re not even beginning to understand what theists actually believe about God, the nature of the universe and the purpose and the cosmos and man, and most, if not all of your post falls into either a ‘straw man’ or ‘argument from ignorance’ logical error.
Post-Antitheism is not so much about proving the existence of God as it is recognizing the untenable failure of the alternatives, the logical errors required to believe it and the inevitable truth claims it is indirectly forced to make about the universe. It makes the point than lack of belief may sound reasonable when talking about God, but it cannot stand alone, brings with a whole other set of unavoidable implications and conflicts when confronted with other fields. Particularly the mathematics and others hard sciences. It fails on non-theological grounds.
You should post more often.
What the fuck is wrong with you??? His writing is the exact opposite of yours … boring highbrow sounding inane bullshit. Oh, wait, you have cows. You’re used to bullshit.
Stucky, you should post less often.
I agree with Stucky on this one. That virgil shit was poorly written.
I love it when critics stop by to let an author (me and others) know that the author has no understanding of this, that, or the other. The critic doesn’t actually know what the author does or doesn’t know. Rather, the critic gets himself a Boner simply because he doesn’t agree. It’s passive agressive. And, bullshit.
I love it when a critic pops in and comes up with his laundry list of what the author should have included. Yeah, your list is long. Next time I’ll write a Fucken encyclopedia, just for you. On the other hand, you are correct; I really should have included that “Borg-Velenkin theorem”. How the fuck did I leave that out?
I addressed the comments you made which I understood.
The rest of your screed? I have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.
I’m guessing the author enabled comments because he does invite discussion and disagreements and I’m guessing the author believes his ideas and beliefs to be robust enough to be challenged.
Given the author posted what appears to be challenge on one level or another, don’t disrespect him by whining about my personality or the format of my content, you sound exactly like a Democrat complaining that Trump isn’t doing what they want and it’s bbbbad and you are using exactly the same reasoning.
And yes, I do know what the author does or doesn’t know, he specifically went out of his way to tell me, so have some respect, he’s mistaken not incoherent. Now that I think about it, I’m not even sure he would actually want you as his self-appointed defender. Bold assumption on your part.
The fact that there is a list format, that the vocabulary is above your intellectually lazy ass pay grade and you think I’m passive aggressive has nothing to do with the content of the post. Not one thing I said wasn’t easily accessible on Google and you could have easily understood them with minimal effort and responded in a meaningful fashion.
If you jump to conclusions without doing your homework this is what you get, now for God’s sake man up and refute the ideas that appear to have scared you so shitless, they’re not made of stone. And if you’re simply going to cling to name call rather than thinking when you get in over your head you should brush up, you read like a poster boy for willful ignorance.
” … and haven’t actually refuted a thing I’ve said.”
Awwww. Cry me a river you little baby.
First, you start out how I ” totally failed to address the issue”. Then I … “might have a proper context” . Then I …”Your cart is way in front of your horse.’ Then I … “failed to make a distinction”. Then I make a … ” healthy dose of plain logical error.”. Then I can …”do better than that.”. Then I’ve only … “rehashed the low hanging fruit.,”. Then I am …. “not even beginning to understand”. Then I am guilty of falling into …. “either a ‘straw man’ or ‘argument from ignorance’ logical error.”.
Terrific style you have there to Foster a decent discussion. Lol And you have the gall to cry about ME calling you names? What a joke you are. BTW, you are a liar. I did not call you any names.
You know what every TBP reader is thinking right now? This —> “Damn! That Virgil Crowe is a real fucking jeroff!”
——–
Why should I refute you? You haven’t addressed anything I wrote … except to shit on me.
You then attempt to hijack my thread with your own retarded commentary and agenda.
—— Atheism/anti-theism, post-antitheist , Double slit experiment , non material mathematics.
—— Borg-Velenkin theorem. Not 2 people here know what the hell that is. Not even Drudge, and he’s ten times more intelligent than you … and people can actually understand him. But, you spout it off without nary a word of explanation, for surely, we’re all as smart as you are,or pretend too be. What a pompous assyou are.
Write your own article about the bullshit you’re spewing here. Maybe two people will read it. Maybe one will make sure comment. Yeah, you’re that boring.
I’ve never seen you here before. I hope that trend continues starting in the new year … or, about an hour. Lastly, blow me.
Q: Am I talking to the author?
Wow… very angry, seriously, take a deep breath. You posted a challenge and got unexpected results. It appears that the subject is a little more nuanced and complex than you had initially appreciated…..so what? No harm no foul. This debate has gone on for thousands of years.
My angle can be a bit confusing at first because it doesn’t defend the existence of God like most Christian apologists, but actively looks at the secondary implications of atheism, and how they relate to mathematics, physics, consciousness etc.
I seldom participate in forums but this subject is interesting and very important and I know you value your civilization and culture and most of it was built with the brick and mortar of theism and the case for disbelief is far from conclusive.
Don’t just be mad, it’s not personal, it’s just part of the thousands of years banter.
Would I be wrong to guess that you’re hostility toward belief in God is more than just intellectual disagreement?
In other words, you did want to hijack MY article with YOUR own totally unrelated subject matter.
As I said, submit your thoughts to Admin for submission. I’ll discuss your commentary there without hijacking it.
Why do you assume I have a hostility towards a belief in God. I don’t. You also falsely assumed I am an atheist. You have a bad track record, and assume far too much.
Stucky, it is creation science nonsense.
Thanks Zara. I’m rather well versed in Creation “Science”. I taught it to my kids! Had most books written by Moore, Gish, and Ken Ham. Weird that I did not recognize it. I drank a lot of wine yesterday … easily a whole bottle. I guess drinking and posting don’t mix.
Virgil,
WTF
JR
Terrific job, Stucky. You hit just about every point that matters save one, and this is fairly recent in my personal journey.
If life were ENTIRELY rational and everything came into being through random chance, why is it that with almost no exception the “right” thing to do also the “difficult” thing to do?
A corollary would be, why isn’t life perfectable? Why can’t we have it all. Certainly, the uber-rich seem to….I mean everything they could possibly desire is at their fingertips…and yet these people are perhaps the most miserable among us. Hedonism seems like the perfect philosophy in a random, temporary existence. If there is nothing else (all physical), why not just seek all the pleasures that this physical existence has to offer. Many have tried…and all have failed.
As a counterpoint, the people that sacrifice of themselves for something greater, be it family, God (whether actually extant or not), community, art, etc….these are the people that find true joy. Example are everywhere. And I don’t even need them…I feel best when I do the “right” thing, when I live in service to others (rare occasions, I admit)..in other words when I serve higher purpose whether there is one out there to serve or not.
It all seems like a test. I think Westcoaster (where has he been of late?) actually put it best in a long-ago post I can quote verbatim: “We are here to learn how to love.”
I don’t know if that is the absolute, equivocal Cosmic truth of all existence. I DO know it is a good way to live.
It ain’t easy, of course, and I expect it to take a lifetime of trying and still never to get it right…but it is the best–most logical–with the hand we’ve all been dealt: Being able to contemplate God, but never to Prove Him.
A REPLY TO NONSENSE
—1) An enormous complex universe that is designed must have a Designer:
Circular reasoning. You state as fact that the universe is “designed” which implies a “designer”. This “argument” (if one wishes to be generous by calling it that) fails as soon as you drop the assumption that the universe was designed (i.e. if the universe was NOT designed then there is no need for a “designer”). Yes, earth, the moon, the atmosphere, etc. are all perfectly situated for life as we know it to exist. Because if it wasn’t, then you wouldn’t be here to make such circular statements. There are, literally, billions upon billions of places throughout the universe where life does NOT exist. If that statement is uttered by a being intelligent enough to make the “argument” then it MUST be made from one of those exceedingly rare places that is perfectly suited for life to exist.
—2) Life itself exists and human life is exceedingly complex …. life cannot start from non-life…:
Life exists and is complex. If it didn’t and wasn’t, you wouldn’t be here to make the statement. However, this is not proof that life cannot start from non-life. This is just an unsupported statement. You cannot point to the complexity of life and the improbability of its evolution retroactively. The same can be claimed for ANY event retroactively. For example, if a large pile of leaves fall into a particular pattern, that pattern – compared to an almost infinite number of other patterns – is absurdly improbable. But to make the argument that that PARTICULAR leaf pile configuration – must have been created by design due to its rarity (compared to all other possible configurations) is nothing more than a misuse of the concept of probability.
—3) DNA is the fingerprint of God:
Again, you can’t use the presupposition of god’s existence to argue for the existence of god. Circular reasoning.
—4) You don’t really need proof …. God will reveal himself:
(See reply to statement -3). Of course, stating that you don’t NEED proof is kind of an admission that you can’t PROVIDE said proof.
—5) Jesus Christ is the ultimate revelation of God:
And Thor is the ultimate revelation of Vishnu; guacamole is the ultimate revelation of avocado and belly button lint is the ultimate revelation of duck billed platypus. Gibberish.
God was invented so that people wouldn’t have to be bothered to think for themselves. Those in power use god to justify their rule over others (e.g. Lord of the castle / Lord in heaven, Kingdom of England / Kingdom of heaven, Disobey god and be sent to torture / Disobey king and be sent to torture, etc.) and the people being ruled justify their servitude based on obfuscation of reality. God also comes in handy when attempting to exert rule over other tribes (e.g. Those people over there are godless and therefore deserve what they get).
God is one of the biggest con jobs ever perpetrated and it will eventually, in all likelihood, end up getting us all killed.
Wake up people. Its 2018!
Nope, you swing and miss too. You are speaking of RELIGION not GOD. vastly different concepts that must be logically separated no matter what fucking year is is.
Exactly. Religion is the attempt by man to reach God but it is always futile. Man reaching God is equvalent to a Bacillus reaching Man.
Zarathustra: Except that bacilli can be proven to exist whereas god does not. So one proposition in your statement makes sense and the other is nonsense. I notice that no one here is attempting to prove that god exists (because they can’t). Simply “proclaiming” something to be true does not make it true. I can proclaim that there are leprechauns living under Donald Trump’s desk in the oval office but that doesn’t make it true.
If one makes a fantastic claim, then it is incumbent upon the one making the claim that they prove the truth of what they assert. If you cannot provide that proof, then you are merely spreading “fake news”.
Druid: You cannot logically separate that which is illogical.
And you can’t read (or maybe it’s a spelling issue). His name is DRUD.
Now see what you’ve gone and made me do? I’ve added a comment to Stucky’s thread and mine is stalled at 160. He’s going to catch me.
Lol lol
You’re 40 ahead of me. I don’t think I can catch you.
At least I’m ahead of indentured servant’s Q post. He hadn’t commented here. So, I won’t comment there. I don’t get the fascination with Q anyway …. an imaginary figure.
I might be able to catch you if more regulars posted … people like El Coyote. I knew he wouldn’t like this article. But, at least the little fucker could have stopped by to kick my ass.
On the positive side, virtually every single post has been on point.
Yep. Controversy sells. Now I’ll have to write a piece on why Hillary has gotten a bad rap, is really a devout Catholic who likes to hunt, and that she should be our next president. 200+ comments guaranteed? Maybe, and most of them on point into both my eyes.
I’m thinking you’ll need to relocate under an alias after that one.
It was until I started posting about comment counts.
Now see… I’ve done it again.
Queue….
Whether it is Drud or Druid has little bearing on the issue. The point is that god doesn’t exist and the only way to assert that god does exist is to champion irrationality.
I’ve heard every argument you have a dozen times over …and I’ve challenged my own beliefs far more critically than anyone else could…because I’m me. I need not have it. If you’d like to consider what I have to say…i am willing. If you wish to keep telling me everything you know for certain and how foolish and irrational I am…well, why would I possibly wish to continue.?
Life is illogical, sir or at least has an irrational component. If you’d like to discuss the finer points of the fundamental forces or any other branch of physics I am always game.
Life cannot be illogical in and of itself. Arguments and claims certainly can be. I am not debating the “fundamental forces” (whatever that is supposed to mean) nor physics. I am simply stating that one cannot claim the existence of something that has no objectively detectable physicality. If you (or anyone) insists that god exists, then you must prove the assertion. If you cannot, then you must concede that you are wrong. If you cannot and still insist that your assertion is correct, then you are by definition, irrational.
Hey Dr. Shitforbrains,
If you (or anyone) insists that god doesn’t exist, then you must prove the assertion. If you cannot, then you must concede that you are wrong (and that God does exist). If you cannot and still insist that your assertion is correct, then you are by definition, irrational.
Yes…this is the argument. It goes around forever and never ends. I find it erndlessdly tiring. I did not assert God exists. I asserted that your argument was specious…as it was the first several hundred times I heard it. I seek truth not tired truisms.
Drud:
I am certainly a fan of truth. I would certainly be interested in hearing about the truths you’ve discovered. Of course, we would both have to agree on what “truth” means. As you’ve probably surmised, I accept the scientific objective sense of the term. I admit that it has its limitations but anything outside of that sense of the term tends to quickly degenerate into irreconcilable subjective goop.
Carl – that is the fucking dumbest thing I have seen posted here in a long time. There is no logic in that – if you cannot prove something, then the opposite must be true.
What a load of horseshit. Used to be people could not prove the earth was round. So,I guess that means it was flat. Oops. Nope.
Used to be you could not prove that sickness was spread by bacteria or virus. Oops.
Used to be you could not prove that powered flight was possible. Oops.
Get a clue.
Carl (A.K.A. Religious Idiot): Did my statement hurt your iddy biddy feewings? Good. If my questioning your assertion that there is an invisible man (or whatever) ruling over creation causes you to get angry, then good. You should get angry. Your emotional reaction is typical of the cognitive dissonance created when religious types begin to look too closely at their dearly held but unfounded beliefs.
I do not have to prove the your god does not exist. I didn’t make such a claim. However, if you are claiming that this god does exist, then you should be prepared to prove it. Otherwise, you are just spinning fairy tales (do you also believe in fairies?).
Anyway, arguing with a religionist is like playing chess with a pidgeon. So on that note, I will bid you farewell.
Never play chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.
Then shits all over the board.
Then struts around like it won.
Carl – Alvin the chipmunk is actually the one and only real God. Unless you can prove it is not so. Well, can you, punk?
There you have it, folks. Carl can not disprove it, so Alvin is God.
No surprise that Llpoh and Dr. S completely miss the point. No one can prove that God does or doesn’t exist. Get it? Yet both of you are trying to win the argument while looking absolutely fucking stupid and prententious. Pass the popcorn.
Purty as a Purdey. And well-aimed, too.
https://www.purdey.com/guns-rifles
I like Phillip Yancy, too! He has a great sense of humor. He once told of getting distracted during a church service by music he didn’t like. Lol! Happens to me all the time. I haven’t read anything by him lately, though.
You ask a lot of interesting questions. I haven’t slept well the last couple of nights. So I’m not sure I can come up with anything coherent to contribute, but I will try. I think I need to continue walking, even when it’s zero degrees out. I’m going out for a walk, hopefully my silicone boobs won’t freeze solid and I will sleep better.
I can’t figure out whether you hate God, don’t believe He exists, go back and forth, or what? A lot of what you muse upon, I used to struggle with, as well.
On Uncola’s Happy New Year post, you asked me if scripture really stated that God set up the nations.
“When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.[b]”
Deut 32: 8-9 ESV
There’s those pesky “sons of God” again. Those are not people he is talking about. Israel doesn’t yet exist and of course, neither do Christians, as we are called “sons of God” in the new testament.
You also asked why God “had” to go down to earth to see what was going on. It doesn’t say he “had” to. It just says that he did. He also took others with him. Of course God could see what was going on down here without coming here. The ones that went with him were not sovereign, God wanted them to see what was going on as well, so they “had” to go down there. Who were they, the ones who came with God to see what was going on here?
What does inerrant mean, anyway? That nothing will be contradicted? Does that destroy the message? For some, I guess it does.
Honestly, Stucky, give this a try.
http://www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/shows/
Just watch the Divine Council Intro and Worldview. I promise you will find it fascinating. It’s about an hour and fifteen minutes for both. You don’t even have to watch, you can listen but it’s better to watch. I will read your Tower of Babel post.
I think you will like Hieser. He’s not a preacher, he’s a teacher. He has a good sense of humor, a little dry sometimes.
Let me give you an example. I was listening to a podcast about the Catholic view of communion, and he asked what happens if you eat Jesus’s flesh, then do you poop it too? Sorry, you devout Catholics, but it’s a good question.
I’m going out in the cold.
MC
You might enjoy Yancey’s blog.
https://philipyancey.com/category/philip-yanceys-blog
I don’t hate God. Does he exist? I don’t know.
The intro is 32 minutes long. I’ll try to find time later. Thanks.
Thanks, Stucky, I didn’t know he had a blog.
MC, coat inside bra with Icy Hot or tea tree oil. Next time post link to nakedwomenreadingbible (with real or fake boobs). If there is such a site. Hopefully youtube. Happy new year.
Stucky- Do you support a “One World” religion? If so, why?
Hello……that was a serious question.
OK Fine- I’ll take that as a NO.
Signed, Chopped Liver
Happy New Year!!
Sorry, BL, I did not see your question until now.
Once Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom, that will usher in a one world religion. I suppose I would support that..
But, I know you mean in the here and now. Yes, I would. Because I would ASSUME that God, if he exists, would insure it was the true religion.
I think there are many religions because different people are at different levels in their spiritual journey and have different lessons to learn.
I do believe in miracles, and consider my life one. I was born breech, a dangerous way to come into the world back in the 1960’s. In addition, I was born with no bones in my legs. They grew in after I was born. I wore a brace and learned to walk when I was four years old. I’ve asked a few doctors about this and they look at me like I’m trying to pull one over on them. I have heard of people who were born with no bones but not one other case of someone whose bones grew in. If you’ve heard of any I’d love to find out about them.
KaD
You are not alone. Have a blessed new year!
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/breakthrough-drugs-girl-bones-article-1.1326262
Thank you BL. This is an interesting case; although I doubt this was what I had since all the rest of my skeleton was fine. And no drugs were used to grow my leg bones. But interesting nonetheless.
KaD- I found that very interesting and I feel great joy that that little girl is learning to dance. That is a miracle for sure!
Happy New Year !! Best of Health.
Stucky, your ILLOGICAL way of thinking never ceases to amaze me! First, you list all the COMMON-SENSE, LOGICAL, REASONABLE, AND RATIONAL ideas to believe that there is a Creator God and that the Bible is true & trustworthy and that Jesus died for our sins, THEN YOU PROCEED TO TOSS ALL THAT COMMON-SENSE, LOGICAL, SOUND ARGUMENTS AND REASON INTO THE TRASH CAN!!!!!!! Truly, truly your reasoning is illogical and convoluted and non-sensical! I truly believe that if Jesus were to physically stand in front of you and ask you to repent of your sins and accept Him as your Lord & Savior you would still refuse to do that!!! Stucky, perhaps Jesus was thinking about you when He told the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.19-31. I believe Jesus was thinking of you when He said “But he said to him ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead'”. Thanks Stucky!!! Ever time I read your posts it convinces me more and more that my faith is logical, true, and correct. Thank you for that!
Life is illogical, sir or at least has an irrational component. If you’d like to discuss the fineer points of the fundamental forces or any other branch of physics I am always game.
When you agree with me, I am logical. When you disagree with me, I am illogical. That’s really not a proper definition of logic. OK
It would have helped if instead of just making an accusation, you provided at least one example.
Let’s take the Mohammed example. Why is it illogical to wonder why God didn’t terminate a man who would be responsible for the eternal death of Billions of souls …. especially since it is recorded in the Bible that He has killed people, either directly or indirectly, for far far lesser sins?
——————-
“I truly believe that if Jesus were to physically stand in front of you and ask you to repent of your sins and accept Him as your Lord & Savior you would still refuse to do that!!! ”
You would be very very wrong.
———————–
“Ever time I read your posts it convinces me more and more that my faith is logical, true, and correct. Thank you for that!”
Awesome!! Really. I have not once ever attempted to talk people out of their faith. And I never will. If my religion based articles help strengthen someone’s faith, then I think I’ve been of service to them specifically, and their own community generally. Nothing wrong with that!!
What if your article strengths the faith of someone who has a false faith, when instead they really should be worshipping Alvin? You may be helping them into eternal damnation. Bet you never thought of that. Maybe you should be trying to point them in a different direction. Alvin is the Answer, the Word, and the Truth. Really.
Llpoh, my good and loyal friend
I have never set out to convince anyone of anything with my religious (or, other) articles. I just enjoy writing, sharing my beliefs, and throwing it against that proverbial wall to see what sticks.
Am I happy if I convince someone … maybe even have a positive impact on their lives? Of course! Who wouldn’t be?
You have caused me great consternation. If my writings cause someone to stumble, then I am fucked Good ‘n Plenty. You know the Scriptures which will fry my fat ass.
I shall have to ponder your thesis that Alvin is Truth. I have previously submitted a short excerpt from a fine Jewish feller who surmised that God is a Chicken. It took a while for me to admit he could be correct. Now you’re throwing in a fucken Hamster?? Damn you!!!
———-
PS; This article had now passed Francis Marion’s hunting thread! I’m glad he closed that thread. Heh heh.
Helluva weekend. Three articles (this one, hunting, and Q) simultaneously at 150 plus! Not sure I’ve ever seen that before.
Yours, in Alvin’s Holy Name
Stuck – I think one of my comments pissed him off. I am at times imprudent, but one, well actually two things, he said worried away at me until I commented on them. I should have known it would not go well. It was not meant as a total slight, as Francis is an A-1 fellow, and I respect him, but disagree re the hunting stuff. You know me, never let a tire go unkicked or a knit unpicked.
I believe in certain things – the ability to post here what I think is one such, whether invited or not. And the ability of humans to evolve and reason. By evolve, I do not mean physically, but intellectually, morall, ethically. We are not low level animals. I made those points too directly, I fear.
Sorry, Francis, if you see this.
You certainly generated many comments. Your column was a gratuitous swipe, with a very wide brush. I find it comical that “atheists” are far more active “evangelizing” than most Christians. It is what it is.
Be that as it may, your reasoning bespeaks your ignorance of the Christian Faith. That is not a slam, just what is. You speak from “your” perspective, and, although you would say not, you ridicule anyone holding an opposing position. You do a bit of very amateur sleuthing about Scripture, and conclude you know better than do we holding firm in the faith. Water off a duck’s (my) back.
I shan’t belabor my point. I have argued with any number of atheists down through the years. I grew weary of doing so. They, like you, have already fixed their minds. There is no way to fight that, and I won’t. I would, however, in the interest of balance, suggest you read the following . . .
Edersheim – http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/The%20Life%20and%20Times%20of%20Jesus%20the%20Messiah.pdf
Pax Domini – jb
Well, I have just finished reading a staggering trove of inspiration, consternation, perspiration, condemnation, justification, and limitation. And, it would be prudent to include mental masturbation.
Being an aging young Catholic turned lazy agnostic turned closet Christian, I sense the futility of attempting to dissuade the proud intelligencia (sp?) from their cerebral gymnastics. But I will try:
‘Paralysis by analysis ‘.
You assume I’m an atheist. That makes you a dumbfuk.
As to my ignorance, I wish we could arrange a graduate level theology exam. Pretty sure I’d blow your ignorant ass out of the water.
My mind is not fixed. I’m more than willing to change my mind when new, better information comes my way. Can the same be said about you? IOW, is there ANY new information which could change your mind about Jesus? Of course not. So, really, do tell me … WHOSE mind is truly fixed? Yours, of course, you fucking hypocrite.
“I shan’t belabor my point.”
Shan’t? Ohmigawd, I’m talking to a faggot!
Late to the party – but – there is one main thing to consider about these debates on Biblical scholarship and that is this: The New Testament (NT) has far more original manuscript academic reliability than any other ancient text.
https://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
Although these links don’t address the Koran, it is common knowledge that even the earliest (very few) fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran were dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died.
http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2012/12/11/how-do-other-ancient-texts-compare-to-the-new-testament/
“..there are over 2000 Armenian, almost 1000 Coptic, 6 Gothic, more than 600 Ethiopian, more than 10000 Latin, more than 350 Syriac, 43 Georgian, and more than 4000 Slavic manuscript copies of the NT.
The only conclusion one can reasonably reach is that we have more confidence in the textual transmission of the NT than in any other document of ancient history. To question the transmission accuracy of the NT texts we have today is to question all of ancient history.”
Just think about what that means. The ramifications of that. The people living at the time of Christ were still alive when the NT was written and with unprecendented proliferation of the manuscripts. Can anyone point out any legitimately documented disputes from antiquity against the NT? Why not? Surely the original apostles did not die professing faith in a lie. Would you?
So there’s that.
100. I win.
This is my first comment on this blog which think it is one of the best on the internet. As a former resident of Philly, Jim’s excellent essays are a reminder why I don’t want to go back. . I have always enjoyed discussing and reading different points of view on religion and I have a question for anyone who cares to respond. If we are to believe the teachings of the Bible, God had become so dissatisfied with humanity that he kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden for disobeying Him. Then He got so pissed off that he killed all living creatures except Noah, his family, and the animals he brought on his ark. Finally, He sent His Son to be tortured and crucified for our sins. Can anyone reasonably say that man has changed his ways since the crucifixion? If not, what will God do next? Or is it three strikes and you’re out!
In the same vain if you believe the Bible don’t you think Jesus has to be really disappointed that we overshadowed His birth and resurrection with materialism, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny? And if the God of my 12 years of Catholic schools is really all knowing and powerful why did He subject His Son to crucifixion when the result has been more of the same.
Steve
Welcome to TBP as a commenter, and thank you for choosing my article to get your feet wet.
What comes next? Somewhere around 95% of the Earth’s resources are destroyed, and most humans are killed. It’s in the book of Revelation. Sometimes you have to destroy a planet to save it.
Regarding Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, can you prove they don’t exist? No, I don’t think so. To play it safe, we should assume they are real. Therefore, Jesus also died for their sins. So, he doesn’t mind.
I also went to Catholic School. My advice is to try to forget everything they ever taught you.
I hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction.
What about the devil. Can you prove he doesn’t exist? No, I don’t think so. To play it safe, we should assume he is real. That would explain all of Steve’s concerns. Wouldn’t it?
Stucky ,I now know why you have always come across to me as an apostate .One who knows the truth but then turns away from what they know.
Gayle said on one of your post that you didn’t believe Christ died for our sins.This is the basic gospel is a nutshell.If you don’t believe this then you were never spiritually reborn to begin with. If this is true then that’s your problem.Damn Meathead in Cosmic size.I should charge you a 100 bucks this information.
You have a label for everybody. But, I don’t mind apostate.
I don’t recall ever saying Jesus didn’t die for our sins.
Stucky
You made that statement in a comment thread on a theological topic two or three years ago. I remember it clearly because I was surprised when you wrote it.
Stucky,
Ever visit a place that has paranormal activity? I mean the real stuff. There are two such residences in my family. It would blow your mind. It is unquestionable that there is a spiritual world. we are not just flesh and bone. From that, you can use your intelligence to extrapolate. Make the right choice my friend. Riches for the next world has nothing to do with material things. It’s all above love.
This is my understanding: God cannot be perceived through the human mind because our limited human mind is only capable of taking in sense perceptions and God is said to be spirit.
However, intuition and insight which comes through the intellect; a function of objective consciousness, can internally sense God. There are no words to express this experience when it happens.
Consider this about Faith, Love, Hope:
Faith of consciousness is freedom
Faith of feeling is weakness
Faith of body is stupidity
Love of consciousness evokes the same in response
Love of feeling evokes the opposite
Love of body depends only on type and polarity
Hope of consciousness is strength
Hope of feeling is slavery
Hope of body is disease.
A Legominism by Ashiata Shiemash.
Ponder this deeply as it is true in our earthly life. We are not our body or our mind. The terror of the situation is that we only have our consciousness to rely on and mental illness is a living hell. Without a healthy consciousness we have no hope of knowing God.
The best place to begin this examination is Gurdjieff’s own writings and in particular his magnum opus Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson, in which it is believed that he actually drew on on oral teachings of Zarathushtra in crafting the character Ashia Shiemash, whom he envisions as one of the first great pre Judaeo-Christian prophets to mankind. It is widely considered by students of the work that Ashiata Shiemash is actually a reference to the ancient Indo-Iranian prophet Zarathushtra. As a student of the Gurdjieff Work and then later a student of Mazadaism, this question for me has only grown with mystery. Gurdjieff at many times indicated that what he taught was simply the original system for becoming; the first system that had been forgotten and buried by time and instances of man’s foolishness. On the other side, the more one studies Zoroastrianism in philosophy and history, the more one comes to see that quite possibly this was the original ‘way’ – the original spiritual teaching from which all others were born, grew, diverged, and eventually lost resonance and resemblance with. Here it is my wish to highlight the significant ideas and stories surrounding the character of Ashiata Shiemash, note the various correspondences with Zarathustra as they may arise, and arouse thought on all of this in the spirit of generating a more comprehensive understanding of the universality of this line of work.
There are certainly some differences between Ashiata Shiemash and Zarathrustra. But there are as many if not more similarities, and deep ones at that. It may be useful to keep in mind that Gurdjieff never considered himself an academic, and were anyone to request academic citation for any of his ideas he would likely scoff and point them to the door. Yet it is clear from his many writings as well as the many writings about him – that he contained within himself a wealth of legitimate knowledge of man, psychology, religion, and history.
Abraham and Moses both lived long before Zoroaster. The Mosaic Law, the Psalms of David and many of the prophets wrote before Zoroaster was even born. Therefore it is common sense to conclude it is more likely that Judaism influenced Zoroaster than vice versa. Judaism is avowedly monotheistic, while Zoroastrianism is dualistic and emerged from polytheism. There is no obvious connection between these religions.
Among religious scholars, your view is in the minority. One thing we know for sure is that the Zoroastrian king Cyrus liberated the Hebrew elites from Babylon at a time when the Torah consisted of just oral traditions and had yet to be written. It is also true that Cyrus commissioned the Temple in Jerusalem that was completed by his son Darius. Abraham may have existed prior to Zarathustra but there should be little doubt that Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism more that the opposite.
“Among religious scholars, your view is in the minority.”
That statement is not only bullshit, but worse. It is laughable bullshit. A contention you could never prove.
https://www.ancient.eu/zoroaster/
“Modern scholars believe that Zoroaster must have lived at some point between c. 1500 and c. 600 BCE. The 600 BCE limit is based on the fact that the Avesta does not contain a single reference to a ruler of the Achaemenid Empire, which was the dominant power in Persia beginning in 550 BCE.”
The Israelites were in Egypt as far back as 1877 BC and Abraham lived hundreds of years before that.
http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40005
“Judaism is avowedly monotheistic, while Zoroastrianism is dualistic and emerged from polytheism. ”
First, I just got up (I might have a hangover), and it’s a nice surprise to see the comment count— I believe I will catch up to that dastardly Francis Marion! Maybe that’s why I’m responding to the above comment, to just increase the count? Nah. I just want to address the misconception that Judaism was always monotheistic.
All religions change over time. Modern Christianity with its highly codified theology (thousands of pages to systemize its doctrines) is far removed from the practices and beliefs of Early Christianity. Judaism experienced similar changes.
Terach clearly was henotheistic, and raised his son, Abraham, likewise. Henotheism worships a single god ….
while acknowledging the existence or possible existence of other gods. The Semitic pantheon had many Gods. Abraham happened to make a covenant with one of those gods, the chief God, El … or, Elohim, which translates to GODS — plural. Scholars label the source (authorship) of such references as E(lohist)
Moses, raised in Egypt, also practiced henotheism. (Moses, Miriam, Aaron, Pinechas are all Egyptian names.) His was the Redeemer God, the God of freedom from slavery … and is referred to as Yahweh, from the tetragrammaton YHWH (I am that I am). Scholars label the source (authorship) of such references to God as J (Jawist, or Yahwist).
The J source is associated with Judah, King David’s dynasty and the Jerusalem priesthood uses the Tetragrammaton to refer to God from the very beginning.
The Elohist source, associated with the rival priesthood of the Northern Kingdom, use Elohim exclusively (until the buning bush incident).
At some point in time the Yahwist clan formed a confederation with the El clan. It was then that YHWH and El became identical — two different names for the same God.
When was that point in time? It started when Josiah tried to stamp out all idolatrous cults and suggested that the Jerusalem Temple be the center of worship. Yes, it is not until Deutetonomy where proclamations of monotheism are set forth … that YHWH/El is not the chief god of many gods, but the only god.
The Prophets and priests (known as P source) continue to articulate and refine the message.
But it was only during the exile in Babylon where absolute monotheism associated with Judaism was finally forged. At this time the Pentateuch was edited into its final form.
Tribalism was replaced with a nationalistic Jewish identity. But it wasn’t always that way.
Good Morning Stucky and Happy New Year! I think maybe I drank a teeny bit too much wine, also.
” Henotheism worships a single god ….
while acknowledging the existence or possible existence of other gods. The Semitic pantheon had many Gods. Abraham happened to make a covenant with one of those gods, the chief God, El … or, Elohim, which translates to GODS — plural.”
This scares Christians because they never go any further than sitting in church pews and listening to lay people teach Sunday school who don’t do anything other than that either. Oh, they say they “study” but that usually means reading books that confirm their beliefs and reading study bibles that do the same.
I’m not saying I am a scholar by any stretch of the imagination. I just have questions that if asked in those circles you get the look that says they think you are nuts.
Heiser has labeled us “Christian Middle Earth”
Good Morning, MC
You have no idea how right your are.
We already had one person here who believes my questions are dangerous. We have people here who say Jesus was not a Jew. Really.
A Pew Research questionnaire showed that only 45% of Americans can name the FOUR Gospels!!! Only 10% of Christians can recite all 10 commandments. And on and on … it is frighteningly sad.
You know about those Mark Dice videos which show how stupid Americans are? Christians are like that … only even dumber, which I know is hard to believe.
Interesting stats there. I read the NIV edition, but not in strict acceptance of every word. I do think wise guidelines can be found in many verses, for continuing my own personal quest to lead a life of integrity & truth for my own growth. To each their own, ultimately. Reading various opinions of comments in long threads like this, if with an open mind yields benefit too. This one here has been interesting as hell to me. Pun intended.
Are ya goin for 400? I was gone all day yesterday and today.
A few comments down, Anonymous says “The plurality of Elohim addresses the Trinity which is not polytheisism”
I figured someone would say that. I used to believe that, also. Live and learn.
Elohim is a label based on where the beings realm is. Elohim means spirit, they reside in the spiritual world. As human beings, we reside in the material world. It appears that they can cross over into our world but we can’t cross over into theirs, not in our current form, anyway. Well, that’s not entirely true. Enoch was supposed to have been back and forth, I haven’t read it yet, so I’m not sure. Paul, it seems, was taken up to a third heaven or something. I’m tired and don’t feel like looking it up.
There is, however, only one Unique Elohim, He said his name was/is Yahweh. He created all the other elohim. Where did I find this out, you might ask? Naked Bible! I love that title, don’t you?
I’m sorry you didn’t get your questions answered. I have been unable to get all of mine answered, as well.
Stucky
I am interested in the source for this material. Could you share it?
You can search “documentary hypothesis”. I know it’s wiki, but it will definitely get you started.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
Warning. If you believe Moses alone authored the Pentateuch, you probably won’t like it.
It’s similar in approach to the Q-theory regarding the three Synoptic Gospels — that they all referenced a common source. People who think Matthew wrote Matthew from his own mind (as inspired by God), without any external references, also hate the Q(uelle) theory.
On the contrary, most theologians acknowledge the Q(uelle) theory as adding credence to the veracity of new testament authenticity.
Thanks for the info.
“On the contrary, most theologians acknowledge the Q(uelle) theory as adding credence to the veracity of new testament authenticity.” —- Anonymous
Agree.
I’m talking about Mr. Average Christian …. and the more Fundy and less educated they are, the more the pushback …. “Matthew didn’t need no stinkin help writin his gospel!!”
To take it a step further try telling them that theologians know that Matthew almost certainly didn’t pen Matthew, Mark didn’t write Mark, etc. …. and prepare to see some heads explode. Lol
The plurality of Elohim addresses the Trinity which is not polytheisism.
“…(Although I’m not sure why God put men’s testicles in such an open easy-to-attack location. He could have at least made them retractable … and less itchy. This would greatly have helped my unbelief.)…”
At least they’re not located such that you can lick them yourself, or you’d never get any work done…
Steve C.
Spring, Texas
Thank God for Jesus and all the Heavenly Hosts. I am grateful for our Gospels and Christianity even as imperfect as they are. The World would be an much worse place if Jesus had not come and at the rate it’s going to Hell in a hand basket on greased skids, Jesus will be back soon.
@ Zarathustra
Thank you for your comment.
Stucky. Great post
Happy New Year!
The catechism of heady catholicism
Has a decipherable cause
That describes an indecipherable cause
That sublimes
Divine
Gradually
Continually
‘Till the end of Time
Is that a crime?
@ Llpoh
“I believe in the ability of individual humans to improve themselves to grow and develop. That is the core of my belief system. I also believe very few will look to do that and will stumble through life blind to those possibilities.”
I concur. You a right that individual humans have the ability to improve themselves. The key is to first obtain individuality. Individuality implies completedness with the ability of self direction, to adjust behavior and influence our environment.
We humans are part of the biosphere; that thin layer of organic matter that covers the earth. This biosphere is considered an organism and we humans being part of this whole are influenced subconsciously by it. This organism of life was created by the combined energy of the sun and earth and acting as an active agent on the surface crust like the surface of a living cell the biosphere is changing the earth.
So basically we humans are food for the earth. But because God created us in his image; being Spirit, humans hold another nature within that can develop into something greater than food for the earth. This requires first breaking out of our sleep. Does it not say many times in Christian scripture to wake up? This is the key.
In our present society what is keeping people asleep is Administrative Law. Rules and regulations are made under it with no questioning of the consequences it is causing of stopping human development. People just go along with it not questioning what it is doing to us. This law is making people food for the government as is intended because it goes against individuality; the very quality needed for spiritual development.
So you are right. Few will wake up. But what is needed for those who wake up is to find a school that will help them develop spiritually. Religion cannot do this. A special way is needed. Those who seek will find.
As an aside, do people realize that around the year 400, a bunch of holier than thous got together and decided which books would be included in the Bible, and which left out? There are many books that did not make it, including The Gospel of Judas, which by rights should have been in, because it was a gospel of a direct disciple of Christ, which was the number one criteria to make it. All other books selected were done so on the basis that they supported directly the books of Gospels.
So, a group of preachers decided which books make up the Bible.
I do not know about you, but my trust of preachers ranks with used car salesmen and politicians. Do you think there is a chance they made their decisons with biases? I mean, they cut a Gospel out of it, after all.
By that logic Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Hubris must disavow the credibility of any ancient text before the printing press. Name one historical document that had the type of scrutiny that was given to Biblical canon.
Car salesman and politicians? Hardly. These were devout men who feared for their very souls.
Holy moly. And I thought Dr. Suckwad was arrogant.
Carl – please provide just one historical document which establishes Jesus existed. Just one. It does not exist.
Those that chose the books of the Bible, hundreds of years after the supposed death of Christ, did so in support of their own beliefs and biases. And they omitted the texts of beliefs they did not believe in, primarily those that smacked of Gnosticism, by memory.
You can believe whatever the hell you want – but it is a belief unsupported by ANY historical documentation whatsoever. But to suggest the current Bible was put together by those without bias is ridiculous. As I said, they rejected the Gospel of Judas, which sure and certainly should have been included – it was the Gospel,of a disciple, after all. But it failed to meet their purposes.
There is no proof that most of the bible characters existed.
“And they omitted the texts of beliefs they did not believe in, primarily those that smacked of agnosticism, by memory.”
Not agnosticism.
Rather, the Gnostics.
That is what I said. Gnostics.
You gotta learn to wait until the edit feature times out before you bust my chops. But that is what I meant.
Jeebus Loves You RiNS……
Happy New Year to You and Yours!
Happy New Year to you as well Bea.
The old testament was littered with prophecies pointing to Christ. For instance, the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold in Psalm 22:16-18 approximately 1,000 years before Christ was born, long before this method of execution was even practiced.
All of the books of the New Testament testify to the existence of Christ. Multiple books and writers over a period of years with very little inconsistencies.
In the Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix book “General Introduction to the Bible” they point out that in the entire 20,000 lines of text in the New Testament, only 40 lines are in doubt or about 400 words.
The reason why books like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of Mary, and others were dropped from biblical canon we’re obvious.
Definitely not rocket science for the early church councils.
Judaism and Christianity emphasized the role of faith and works in salvation, and salvation of both body and spirit. But gnostics taught that the soul’s salvation depended on the individual possessing quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulas.
Plus some of those false books were clearly written in the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
What more evidence would you need? A better question might be what would the world look like if there were truly no evidence that Christ existed?
That Anonymous above was me.
There truly is no evidence Christ existed. Which is highly unusual. No records, no historical facts whatsoever. Your idiotic twisting that because churches were built, then Jesus existed is absurd.
Re the books of the bible, when were they written? They were written, of course. But not by anyone who was alive at the time Jesus was supposedly alive. No written record of him exists from that time. Funny that. The writings commenced around 100 years after that date. Interesting, right?
You can twist and turn all you want, but these are the facts. No historical records or writings mentioning Jesus exist from the time he supposedly lived. None whatsoever. None of the gatherings are mentioned, etc. And to me, that points to one thing – that it is likely Jesus was a fable that grew. It could have all sprung up from one man telling tales, the same way Scientology and the Church of Latter Day Saints did, etc.
Believe what you want. But please stop trying to spin your beliefs into proof. There is no proof. And if there were any, I am sure the Catholic church would have released it long ago.
Why have Cathedrals been built, lives changed, and all time marked by his birth and death? How can you possibly ascribe that to vain imaginings and voodoo. The answer is because you want to. You are the one twisting and turning to avoid seeing what you do not want to see. The academic and historical evidence exists in plain sight.
There is more historical evidence for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus than any other person in history. Josephus, a secular historian who was a contemporary of Jesus writes about Him and many many others.
Many of the Biblical writers were eyewitnesses of Jesus.
You could not be further from the truth with such a ridiculous statement.
Blessings:-}
Josephus was to Jesus what Jim Quinn is to John F. Kennedy.
If Jim Quinn wrote anything false about John Kennedy would he be called out on the lies? Would there be documentation? Mr. Quinn couldn’t be called out if what he wrote was true. Now what if many unassociated writers wrote about JFK at the same time?
Josephus’ writings from the first century “Antiquities of the Jews” is non-biblical historical documentation referencing both Christ and John the Baptist. Modern scholars do not debate the authenticity of these references. This, along with other non-biblical, non-Christian references to Jesus in secular first-century sources include Tacitus (Annals 15:44), Suetonius (Claudius 25), and Pliny the Younger (Letter to Trajan) proves conclusively that any denial of Jesus’ historicity is dishonest. But all of this will still prove nothing for some.
Sad but true.
Blessings:-}
So a guy, josephus, writing 100 years after the supposed death of Jesus says that Jesus lived is your proof?
Hahahahaha!
He was not a “contemporary”. The passages, 3 in total, were written almost 100 years after Jesus supossedly died. Nice spin, no cigar.
Suggest this for your doubting problem. http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/historicalev.htm
But, like Jesus said, even if a man were to raise from the dead and tell you you still will not believe. It’s who you have made yourself to be.
Sad
Blessings:-}
From that edwitness link:
To any unbiased observer who is willing to evaluate it without prejudice, the accumulated evidence regarding the Gospel record is truly overwhelming. As an example, Otto Betz, a respected scholar, stated in his book, What Do We Know About Jesus? that “No serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.”
Llpoh must not be a serious scholar.
And yet every one on Earth agrees it is 2018.
If He wasn’t real that would be one hell of a covfefe.
Josephus’ “Antiquities” was written in AD 94 or 61 years after Jesus’ death.
There is one biblical fragment from the Gospel of John that is dated to be approximately 20 years after Jesus’s death. The apostles and followers thought Christ’s return was going to be immediate. Around 30 to 50 years after the crucifixion multiple New Testament writing’s were documented and spread far and wide while many of the contemporaries of Christ we’re still alive.
100 years ago was 1918. How sure are we of the events then? 40 years ago was 1978. Think about that. How easy would it be to disprove anything from that time? Pretty easy. Unless you don’t believe in Jimmy Carter.
HSF- Everyone does not agree that it is 2018, the heebs say it is the year 5778.
They should know, they cook all of this up……just sayin’.
When I see that the tornado went around the church on sunday morning and spared the people inside, I will believe.
When the priest stands at the church door and keeps people out during an earthquake, I will believe.
When the shooter dies of a heart attack as he enters the church, I will believe.
200
Ya baby! It’s mine!
THANK YOU FRANCIS MARION!!
How civilization ends: two white faggots cluck over the stupidity of xtians and the impossibility of their now-dead religion, as ten of Allah snackbar’s finest swarthy goat botherers rape the last white female and cut the “rational men’s” throats from behind, and a 300 lb nigger twerks over the last white man’s grave. Forever.
Stucky, I’m not going to get in a theological debate with you about this, mainly because I’m not a theologian but also because it would be counterproductive. I’m just going to give you my reaction to your points. Other than that if you want to trust your own judgement on such an existentially important topic, go ahead, it’s your ass on the eternal line, not mine. I think with Pascal that it’s safer for the purely selfish preservation of my ass, to bet on God being there rather than on Him not being there.
Points 1,2 and 3. God ain’t yer fukkin copy-editor. There is not and has never been such a thing as an original copy of the entire Bible. Maybe that’s your point. What we have is the best we’ve been able to come up with to understand a person who at times seems to want to make Himself a mystery. Whether that’s His problem or ours, I don’t know. Also, he didn’t write the thing Himself, in which case I presume there would not have been errors and additions here and there. Likewise, maybe, just maybe, Jesus took the same attack the Fuerher did; to move the masses it is more important to exhibit hortatory skills than literary skills.
Point 4 and 5: Why? Why?
Point 6: Why? He’s not the only actor in this ‘effin shit-show. And if it were strictly up to Him and not at least partly up to us, I’m still not convinced there would be only one “religion”; depends on how you define “religion”. If you mean a particular cultus (of specific rituals and beliefs) chances are there would be. Christians in their noblest and wisest have never insisted that nations give up their customs and beliefs as long as they do not conflict with what is commonly believed to be the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Point 7: He’s not yer fukkin personal magician either. Christian belief is not about signs and wonders. As an aside, I have seen some. Can they be explained some other way besides appealing to supernatual power. I suppose so, it makes no difference to me and if you weren’t such an obvious lover of carney shows and TV spectacles you wouldn’t either. What Christianity is about is the search for the meaning and the truth that is at the heart of the universal order that my own heart and conscience tells me are there. If you don’t get it…well.
Points 8 and 9: That just fukkin stupid and I’m not even going to try to answer that. My prerogative.
i agree with you on all points. and i’ll add that I have a hard time believing that in all this time of you yammering on about the bible, Stucky.. you don’t seem to have realized there are 2 kinds of truth. scientific truth and religious truth. they describe 2 different worlds. (science is the world of how objects manifest and behave, religion is the world of how people SHOULD manifest and behave, in order to create a future that works for not only just you, but for living among your family, neighbors, village, state. and not just the future of tomorrow, but how to live for years and decades in this social situation without constantly collapsing it)
science gives you an infinite number of facts and tells you nothing about how you SHOULD behave in any situation.
the bible doesn’t have “mistakes, errors and contradictions” because it describes the Duality of life, which has many phenomena with both positive and negative aspects
Ahhhhh! Scientific AND religious truth?!
Golly. Now dats an eye opener fer sure. Thanks fer perntin’ it out fer me.
people assume that god is omnipotent because god created the world.
but.. “god” is just pure conscience, and the way god “creates” the world describes the way the brain constructs it’s map of the world in it’s varying perceived scale.
– ( + [ + |o| – ] – ) + is the world
extremes become opposites, the tale of christ is the same as the tale of the TAO… to express the ideal behaviour.. to walk the line between order and chaos.
here’s a good place to start
What a bunch of fucking horseshit. Speaking of gnostic quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and magic formulas. More of the same. The way is narrow and few find it. Now I need a new moniker.
yeaaa fling that shit, you sheep-monkey-flinging pinksquarefag.
magic formulas?
my theories came from direct bible verse study and neuroscience.
do you even biblehub? http://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-20.htm
http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm
….I’m not going to get in a theological debate with you about this, mainly because I’m not a theologian but also because it would be counterproductive. I’m just going to give you my reaction to your points
and then ya do Mac… didn’t take long to break that promise.
are you a politician?
too funny..
Every name in the Bible has a meaning. No one here has expressed what the name Jesus Christ means. Jesus is the name of a man. So what does the title Christ mean? Could Christ mean the perfect man?
Every word in the bible has a meaning. Mind control (witchcraft) easily achieved thru’ bamboozling weak minds with words like Christ being either Jesus surname or interchangeable as most posters seem to do. What does (the)Christ really mean? Why is the word pastors(a latin word) used as a translation of a greek word that is translated correctly into english wherever else it appears?, what is a deacon?, and on and on. A question I ask that is universally greeted with non comprehension is – Are you anti-christ or anti-church? – LOL
“Etymology. The name Jesus used in the English New Testament comes from the Latin form of the Greek name Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), a rendition of the Hebrew Yeshua (ישוע), related to the name Joshua. The name is thus related to the Hebrew verb root √yšʿ “rescue, deliver” and one of its noun forms, yešuaʿ “deliverance”.”
“The word Christ is derived from the Greek Χριστός (Christos), which is a translation of the Hebrew משיח (Meshiakh), meaning the “anointed” and usually transliterated into English as “Messiah”.”
Me? I am anti-church … in the strongest possible way