My oldest granddaughter (early 30’s) recently asked me that question. She and her husband have two children, a new home and are still paying off their college loans.
I can still remember when we lived from paycheck to paycheck, questioning why there was so much month left at the end of the money….
My response, “Sure, but when, and at what lifestyle, depends on many things; including decisions you make today.”
It’s easy for young people to look at retirement as something they need to address “tomorrow”; saving is put off – too many bills to pay. “Tomorrow” does come – the day of retirement reckoning is here before you know it.
Compounding is magic!
I wish the colleges required all students to take a course called, “The magic of compounding”. Investor.gov provides a great Compound Interest Calculator. I used this tool for all data calculations, assuming a 4% compounded rate of return.
Let’s start with the (fictitious) Smith family, both age 30, jointly earning $50,000/year. They commit to saving a modest $100/month, certainly not an outrageous sum.
The Smith’s save for 20 years ($24,000 in total), and then stop saving at age 50, leaving the money invested.
The Jones family decides to wait until they are 50 to begin saving. They save $200/month, also for 20 years ($48,000 in total), until they are age 70.
When both couples reach age 70, which family has the most money? Believe it or not – the Smith Family has $78,385, while the Jones Family has $71,467. The Smith family not only kept up with the Jones’, they surpassed them by almost 10%, while saving only half as much money.
What happens if the Smith family chooses to save $100/month for the entire 40 years? At age 70 they would have $114,031. By saving the same amount, $24,000, but sacrificing and starting young, they would have almost 60% more. Who says compounding isn’t magic?
Can Millenials realistically save?
I was raised as an only child. I was almost 60 when I was shocked to learn I had two younger half-sisters. The reunion was like something you would see on an Oprah Winfrey show, hugs, tears and instant love. One of my great joys in life is being “Uncle Dennis”, proudly watching my young nieces and nephews grow up.
My nephew, James is a school teacher, in his late 30’s, married with three young children. He reads our newsletter and started asking about investments. How is he managing to accumulate investment capital with a new home and three young children?
I asked if he would do an interview. He was reluctant at first, saying that he and his wife are really just middle-class folks and they certainly are not rich by any standards.
I explained that my goal is to help educate, and encourage his generation to understand and look at the big picture rather than just put off the “savings problem” for another 20 years. He agreed to help.
DENNIS: James, on behalf of our readers, I want to thank you for your time. My year end article is focused on mentoring, and hearing from someone who is “walking the walk” is terrific.
A school teacher in rural PA does not earn big bucks. How did you get started?
JAMES: Unc, thanks for inviting me. My background is really pretty simple.
I was fortunate to graduate without any student loans. I worked a lot during college and lived frugally because I wanted to graduate debt free. I didn’t graduate with any confidence that I’d be able to save enough money to live comfortably. With a bachelor’s degree in secondary education and a starting salary of $32,500, I was aiming more towards good healthcare and a good pension, not just yearly earnings.
My fiancée was in her senior year. An added bonus of committing to a relationship early was that I wasn’t spending every evening out at a bar like many young people. In small towns, bars are often the only venues where single people have a chance to meet. Bar hopping isn’t cheap. I dedicated that year to saving, accumulating over $15,000.
I enjoyed the challenge, saving hard and living on a self-induced shoestring budget during the one year of my life when I could fully get away with it. My biggest expense was the engagement ring.
Marrying and having children are ultimate blessings, but with them comes the compromise of inconveniencing your family in the short-term for long-term security. Being single brought no such tradeoffs.
Many young people today plunge into immediate debt, buying everything a middle-aged, upper-class family wants as soon as they enter the real world. I was determined not to get married burdened with debts that would take years to pay off.
DENNIS: I’ve seen cases where newlyweds spend the money they saved up to that point; however, you and Stephanie seem to be continuing to minimize your debts and accumulate wealth. How have you done that?
JAMES: Excluding her from our financial history would be like trying to tell a story with every other page missing. We built a foundation prior to our engagement by ensuring we were of a similar mindset, not only with children, our faith, where we wanted to live but also our financial outlook as well. I’ve seen marriages ruined when one spouse values saving but the other is spendthrift. It is impossible to foster long-lasting trust when one half of a couple is spending as fast, or faster than their combined earnings.
If both spouses are not on the same page, I’d recommend some serious discussion because it will eventually boil into a big marital problem.
You might find it interesting to know that Stephanie maxed her 401k contributions immediately when she started working. I didn’t begin until ten years later. Like the example you used earlier, I doubt I will ever catch up to what she has saved. Compounding is magic!
DENNIS: Let’s talk about wealth accumulation. I know you have done some things above and beyond your jobs. What have you done?
JAMES: This may sound simple, but I believed that there are some easy principles to follow. We discussed being dedicated savers; it is what you do from there that really matters.
I don’t believe most people can accumulate wealth working 40 hours a week, you have to do more. Also, there is a HUGE difference between appreciating and depreciating assets.
Cars are a KILLER. They are great examples of depreciating assets because they lose a lot of value as soon as you drive them off the lot. We decided that reasonably priced, good used cars would cost far less; particularly if you drive them for several years.
We have some money in the market, and have done OK; however, the time commitment to stay on top of things is burdensome.
We bought some rental property. I quickly learned that tenants have no problem trashing YOUR property and living 90 days rent free before we can evict them.
After renovating a tenant-trashed property, we realized we could sell it and make more than we would renting it for a few years. Our second rental up for sale; we can make more money flipping the houses than renting them. Finding the right property, fixing it up and reselling it at a profit is nice appreciation and something our schedule allows us to do.
The adage of “you have to have money to make money” is absolutely true. Finances are like a snowball rolling downhill, and the larger your snowball (equity/savings), the faster it is going to roll, and the more momentum (future earnings) you will gain from it. But without an early start and strong foundation, people don’t have the savings to allow them these opportunities.
DENNIS: How tough is it to see your friends living in fancy houses and driving new cars?
JAMES: We have a nice home, one that we are proud of. We have done a lot to fix it up and add value. Sure, we have friends who appear to have much more, but in some cases, it is the illusion of wealth.
We have friends who are the model of hard work, sometimes 2-3 jobs; but their extravagant lifestyle has them mired in debt.
A good friend, 10 years my senior, just built his dream home for his family. They have a swimming pool, huge patio and a pool house to boot! They have less equity than my wife and I had 9 years ago when we bought our home. They are only now starting a mortgage in their mid-40’s, while my wife and I are finishing ours in our 30’s. They will both have to work well into their early 70’s, if not longer.
A common denominator I find with people who chain themselves into these situations is that they focus only on monthly expenses, rather than the overall picture. As long as their expenses are not exceeding their monthly income, they convince themselves they are fine. But in reality, they are on a financial treadmill making no progress.
DENNIS: One final question. James, I had a “financial epiphany” when I was your age. I realized that when you pay something off, it’s not a signal to buy something else; instead pay off another debt. That’s how you get off the treadmill. I felt like, “I was racing to beat the heart attack!”
Fortunately, we had a great economy, and I was moving into my peak earning years. Today it might be a lot tougher.
What advice would you give our readers who may be in the situation you outlined?
JAMES: I feel that many people approaching 40 stop to come up for air and assess things. If you are digging yourself in a hole, stop digging and build a plan to get out of the hole.
I speak from experience, knowing we will have our home paid for shortly. We sleep better at night knowing, if we just keep doing what we are doing, Stephanie and I can educate our children and retire with a comfortable lifestyle.
Unc, there is a good chance that a lot of people my age will be forced to work into their late-70’s or more, largely because they failed to save early, and tried to live beyond their means right out of the gate.
What we have done is not all that spectacular, but it floors me how many people my age fail to do so. Pay your debts first each month, save some money, and then learn to live on the rest. It’s not hopeless if you’ve gotten a late start, but you have to start saving now!
DENNIS: Thank you again!
JAMES: My pleasure.
Dennis here…
There you have it, proof that Millenials can enjoy life, and retire comfortably. As always, it’s a matter of choices. A quick summary:
- Focus on living below your means
- Buy appreciating assets and minimize depreciating assets
- Compounding is magic, start as early as you can
- You will never get rich working 40 hours a week
- Both spouses must work together toward their common goal
- It’s NEVER too late to start!
The formula works for those who work hard to achieve their goals. Making and keeping some New Year’s Resolution’s might be a giant first step.
And Finally…
“If you always protect your offspring in a cocoon they will never learn how to fly…”
For more information, check out my website or follow me on FaceBook.
Get your FREE Special Report:
10 Easy Steps To The Ultimate Worry-Free Retirement Plan
Until next time…
Dennis
www.MillerOnTheMoney.com
no car payments ……my ,bought new, 1992 Honda Accord runs just fine.
John – well done.
I’m more interested in whether they’ll start working than whether they can stop.
I don’t know Dennis. He seems like a nice gentleman. However his advice is a mixture of stock broker salesman and 1950’s thought.
First off – what is retirement? Scrimp and save all your prime years to escape from your lousy job, when you’re old? and then sit around the house watching court TV? Why not have a satisfying job?
Retirement is not going to happen for 99% of the people. Our country is built upon debt – college tuition debt / car loans / mortgages / health care / and a never ending string of insurances – health / car / home. Then there is replacement and maintenance on all the assets we own: home: HVAC / appliances / roofs / exterior. Then there are car repairs and replacement. And a never ending stream of taxes: fed income tax / state income tax / property tax / sales tax ………… This doesn’t even count the expenses having children.
What Dennis is pedaling is a fantasy.
Unless you are a government drone who retires to easy street.
Hi,
If that is the case, I’m living the fantasy. Retirement is when you reach the point in life where you have choices. During your working career you trade your time for money. When you retire, you trade money for time.
Retirement does not mean you have to quit working; however you may not want to work in a high stress 40 hour a week job. You want to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle without constantly having to worry about money.
I know a lot of folks, myself included, who flunked retirement in the traditional sense. Boredom is your biggest enemy. While you may want to stay productive, as I enjoy doing with my writing, you do it on your own terms.
That is achievable for many people if they use some common sense.
Thanks for the comments. It made me realize that I had not made my point totally clear.
Best regards,
Dennis
Exactly. I did this, exactly this, and am now retired (but still working on my pursuits) in my 40’s. Here is the deal: Retirement is basically the point in which you don’t HAVE to work making someone else wealthy, you can now work on getting yourself wealthy (metaphorically, or literally). I owned a business, and several rentals (bought with savings and some good stock investments) during my “working years”. Sold them (thank goodness before ’08), and was then able to pay off all of the debts incurred for basic living – car, house, etc. I actually could have paid them off sooner, but chose to invest instead of pay them off right away due to the opportunity (fate favors the prepared mind). Once you are at zero – not negative (in debt) then you begin the accumulation process. It is a hell of a lot easier when you don’t have the vampire banker sucking the life out of you. It also gives you the added benefit of only working as many hours / days as YOU want, and also gives you the option of only paying as much in taxes as YOU choose. If you are not forced to work for debt, then you can quit being robbed at gun point by the government. They force taxation on what you earn, but they cannot (yet) force you to work. Only a banker can do that with their debt servicing obligation, that YOU allowed them.
Most anyone can earn enough working a few hours a week, at something they enjoy, to pay for food, heat, and basic expenses, including property taxes (at least in a sane state or county). Think how much money you would have in your budget if you did not have a house and car payment?
All kids (and young adults) should be schooled by their parents to spend the first years of their adult lives paying off the house, the car (not a new fancy car) etc. Do your time so to speak, then you can really live. I realized as I was in college (actually tail end of high school) that working for someone else is FAR more risky than anything else, other than base jumping of course.
Think about it, putting your (and sometimes families) shelter, transportation, food etc. in the hands of someone else, for years at a time. On a basic level, is there anything more risky? Eggs in one basket anyone? This is more risky to me than putting all of my savings on TSLA stock. At least if TSLA starts to go south, you can sell quickly and maybe salvage something. If you are paycheck to paycheck, and then some “executive” decides that an H1B or some call center in India will be cheaper than you, you simply get a slip (if even that) and the paycheck simply stops. Then you must spend your next 6 to 8 weeks attempting to gain another way of making a living. And / or gambling, usually taking on more debt to “retrain”, whatever that means, in the hope of getting another paycheck. No thanks.
Dennis,
I agree. I’ve owned a high stress commercial painting company since 1987. Starting the process to sell it and be done in the next four years.
My wife bought an Ice Cream store two years ago. People are happy to see you, happy to pay you and are 99.9% of the time happy when they leave. It’s four months of work in the summer, the rest of the year the plan is to hook up the fifth wheel and travel out west, Zion, Bryce, Page, Moab, White Pocket, Grand Canyon, etc. We are completely debt free.
My plan is to still work while we are camping, leading photo trips and hiking to the other campers passing through and looking for the iconic spots.
No way I can just sit or not work, but hiking and photography is not work to me.
Dennis – nice and accurate article.
Here is what these folks do not understand. What you are saying will not work for everybody. But it will work for anybody.
Those saying it will not work are idiots, are too lazy and undisciplined to take the needed steps, and rather look to blame others.
Those saying 4% is unachievable are looking only at interst rates. How has the stock market done this year? Property? What about investing in a business? Etc.
I guarantee those that save and invest will be miles in front of those that do not.
Re all the bitching about dailed private pensions – cry me a river. Anyone who believe the bunk the unions were selling, that the pensions were guaranteed, had blinders on.
Ask Indentured Servant how he is going – debt free. Ask TPC. Ask Muck. Ask me. Ask my kids. How was it done? Thrift. Save. Hard work. Education. Invest. Family pulling together. No bimbos allowed.
But those crying poor – they do not believe it is possible. All evidence to the contrary.
Hard times creates enormous opportunity for the prepared. Always has. Always will.
Ask Card, too. Way to go, Card!
Thanks, Llpoh, I chalk it up to my whole life I’ve provided for myself, even when I was laid off in 1982 when I worked for my father in law.
Unemployment was $97.00 a week for a max 26 weeks. First and last time I was ever laid off.
23 years old, married, one child, one on the way, wife at home being a mother, house payment of $385.00, health insurance $340.00, heating bills, food bills, car insurance, diapers, etc.
I went out and found my own work to supplement the unemployment, I never even thought about asking for more government help.
I painted bathrooms and kitchens for Mrs Smith’s, I cleaned two offices on Friday nights, I shoveled snow from driveways and roofs, in my spare time I fished for steelhead and hunted deer, birds and rabbits.
Left my father in law, started my own company, worked my ass off for 10 years to get established, been debt free for 15 years now, learned how to live different from my friends when I was younger so I could live different from my friends when I was older.
Pensions, S.S. don’t care.
Card -‘nah, that won’t work! Say the doubters.
Yes, it will. But few do it as you have. It works. Then and now.
Straight outta Compton! Not eating out. Living with old crappy furniture/carpet/a 1970’s ORANGE fucking kitchen. Skipping far flung vacations and only taking simple vacations every other year…if that. Brown bagging it. Go through your entire house……..lay hands on everything you own……if you ain’t seen it, used it, thought about it, missed it or used it to make yourself some money…..SELL IT and put the $$$ towards debt. Live like you are flat broke.
Order your debts from highest to lowest balance. Pay minimums on everything except the lowest and put every spare penny toward that one debt until paid off then do the same for each debt you have smallest to largest. Put all pay raises/bonuses/tax refunds toward debt.
We became debt free last Sept and I cannot even describe how nice it is. Every minute and year of sacrifice was worth it. Our total monthly expenses for EVERYTHING are now less than $2k/month and that includes a little savings for a modest vacation each year. I now save fully ALL of my paycheck and half of my wife’s paycheck every month. We splurged a little….$15k or so and are now back to pouring every spare penny into retirement. Will we make it? Not sure, we started a bit late in life but we are moving in the right direction.
I’m quite happy for you. It’s I mindset. It can be just as fun watching your bank account grow as it is to purchase a new googah.
With all due respect, once you have what you deem as a bank account adequate for emergencies, don’t add to it! Take those surplus funds and invest them in productive tangibles, things that have continuing monetary value but also produce income and amortize in a reasonable (say seven years) period of time and thereafter produce unencumbered, non-depreciating profit, as in a permanent although variable income stream or production of necessities such as edibles.
I’m not “wealthy” by USA standards, but I’ve never been very attracted to consumer goods and “status” objects or behavior. I do live very comfortably, however, and will leave an inheritance for my grandsons that may will ensure the same sort of life for them, assuming their dad prudently manages his wholly-owned, debt-free water-well-drilling business and the creek don’t rise. Wholly owned real property that produces food in abundance with a partially-owned retail outlet to sell the surplus, wholly owned machinery that produces income right from the get-go, a small photography and graphic arts biz for my dtr-in-law who can work from home while raising two tiny tots… So far, so good!
“I wish the colleges required all students to take a course called, “The magic of compounding”. ”
Nothing illustrates the stupidity of the American public better than this statement. If you are that incompetent, you shouldn’t be in college….This “magic” can be demonstrated in about 5 minutes to anyone with an IQ above 80…
The bottom line is simple. Get out of debt and save every penny you can, consistent with living in the modern world. And when the US collapses financially, you will find that you don’t have enough….
My biggest financial problem was wives 1 and 2 who divorced me because they wanted to “cash out their half” and get the freedom to run around and find a better deal; the college advantage and good financial planning all went into the toilet by marrying hot bimbos. Young man, don’t marry her if she has the slightest tinge of liberal even in the tip of a toenail.
all went into the toilet by marrying hot bimbos
Do you know the quickest way to stop a woman from giving you blow jobs? Marry her.
I agree Dutchman , Dennis is talking about people with government salaries and benefits not working people who were thrown overboard 50 years ago now with a pension that evaporated and health care costs that are laughable .
When American industries failed to reinvest in American infrastructure , American Workers and government failed in every economic policy to protect American working class in the middle our nation started circling the drain ,
Our fucking geniuses in charge started printing money backed by debt piled on debt and now we are fucked . As for government funded and managed retirement plans , we all know the plan ! Tax and fine every thing that moves and if it fails to move confiscate it !
Our badge wearing government minions funded with Homeland Scurity Funds will tool about in their Intercontinental Ballistic Winniebago Mobil Crisis Command Center and blow your shit away over a 911 prank call from another state then the state will tax your family out of their home because your income is gone . Once again the badge wearing minions will be there collecting overtime pay just doing their job ! Fucking you even after your dead and buried !
Good Catch Boat Guy.
My dad worked for Bethlehem Steel. I say he was lucky to have died a few years after retirement – cause shortly after he died, Beth Steel went down the shitter and there was no more guaranteed pension – not even 10 cents on the dollar.
And then there all the 10’s of millions of people who lost their jobs in the 2008 Great Recession. Good, talented, educated, productive, creative people who got fucked and couldn’t find a job. Those that didn’t lose everything, lost most of their savings / investments. Nobody wants to hire a 50+ year old.
The odd’s of making it unscathed to retirement are about 1%.
I’m fortunate – I have the degrees in engineering and computer science. I’m still working at 68, and plan to continue until the day before I die. I like the work and the 6 figure income.
I’m not going to give up my stone home on a lake, with a 3 car heated garage (necessary in Minnesocold) – to live in some fucking condo / apartment.
Expenses continue after retirement:
Health Care: $6,000 (Medicare Part B and a Health Partners supplement – 250 for each of each)
Property tax: $7,500
Home Insurance: $3,000
Utilities (gas, elec, water, sanitation): $4,800 ($400 month)
That’s 21,300 / 12 = $1,800 a month – just to live in a debt free home. And that’s not counting necessities and car related expenses.
Who is going to retire?
Boatguy – gotta hand it to you, you sure can whine. Everything is everyone else’s fault. Always.
Llpoh , I don’t whine , I produce absolute facts ! My personal situation is fine due to hard work and responsible investing . The facts facing millions of hard working Americans due to the actions of the corporate world and government collusion including masked bribery that ruined the American middle class , bankrupted businesses and created stagnent growth in wages for over 30 years is a fact you choose to ignore or find humorous . Gee , sorry the earth quake missed your place ! You and I have debated before and you still sound like a successful man who got a few breaks and did well BRAVO , I too did well and am fine . My points are for many who did not or were left behind and they out number us greatly . If you cannot understand this you are either narcisstic or were born on third and are strutting about like you hit a home run !
Boatguy – over and over you talk about the steel company and manufacturing. You are clueless about what really happened. And just how have the corps fucked over the workers? Corps have no obligation to hire anyone. None whatsoever.
With steel, which you harp on about, the system was unsustainable. They were paying huge wages and ebennies to union drones, while running massively inneficient plants. They were what, 20 times overstaffed to a modern steel plant. So what happened was inevitable – they closed down. And without all the other workers, those retired saw the Ponzi scheme collapse.
Manufacturing is now vastly more efficient than it was. It makes the same percent of GDP as it ever did, with 1/6 the number of workers. What, you think corps should employ 100 when they only need 18?
The middle class was not sustainable. Never was. 5% of the world’s population consuming 25% of the resources was never a sustainable situation. And so it is unravelling.
Corps exist to make money. They have no other reason to exist.
Wages cannot grow in real terms given these facts. The middle class was based on manufacturing, in a world where it was the dominant – by a very wide margin – manufacturer, and where manufacturing was not nearly as automated as it is.
Your “analysis” such as it is ignores that basic truth. Just what are these low skilled poorly educated modest or low IQ workers supposed to do if the jobs they had that provided middle class income have been automated out of existence? The middle class manufacturing jobs are gone. They are no longer needed. 70 million manufacturing jobs were not shipped overseas – they were automated out of existence.
Blaming corps or govt or anyone for that is absurd. There was no stopping it. And the automation is now attacking white collar work, and lower level service industry. And it has nothing to do with the govt (perhaps high minimum wages attribute) or evil corps. It has to do with competition and the need gor corps to make profit.
If people want to do well, they have to compete. Which is what Dennis, I and others are saying. Because the gravy train is over.
Btw – I was born into poverty. What I have I got for myself.
You on the other hand road a union gravy train. What a guy.
Again with the insults gravey train wrong analisys . I worked that union job for 11 years and left on my own steam after going to night school for several years father dead mother in poor health my younger brother and I hit the bricks very young . I have a disagreement with you as to how working people were left in this country yet still expected to pay a tax for government largess when my old buddies from my shipyard days finally lost there jobs the governments did not let up on their property taxes yet the powers that be wanted to give police and fire tax breaks to live in the area Again equal protection issue not special treatment
For someone born into poverty you talk an unusually arrogant attitude to those not as fortunate as us . Many work very hard yet they never quite get there . There are numerous reasons and they are not all piss poor excuses yet you insult the integrity and work ethic of all again sorry the earthquake missed your place . If it had not you may have a different view !
God’s first commandment to man after he was kicked out of the Garden of Eden was to work for his living. (Genesis 3:19)
I don’t see anything about retirement being mentioned.
King James Version: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I wonder if God meant “Face Time”?
Llpoh does that mean no government employees get pensions after all we are technicly bankrupt so there is no obligation to meet their contracts . FYI , l left for my own business venture in 1980 and did well along with a well paid compensated team of good people small but very effective . We always lived up to our obligations to each other and our customers . Pity you think the corporate vale allows the company to cheat and lie to enrich a small circle while retirees are left with little or nothing . You tend to hold harmless the true people causing these national issues and blaming or insulting the skills and abilities of those victimized by the system that was jurymandered from Wall Street to K-Street to Capitol Street . Life is not fair however as Americans we should expect absolute equal protection and fairness under the law and you and I know such is not the case .
These articles tend to be along the lines of “oh, sure, you can retire just fine, IF you work super hard, get super lucky, and exploit a range of opportunities that only exist because 95% of your peers are NOT exploiting them.”
Fundamentally the ability of people at large to retire depends on whether the economy is creating a surplus, and whether that surplus is shared widely or retained by only a small group.
GUESS WHAT?
Our economy is creating less and less surplus over time, largely due to the past use of readily accessible natural resources (oil, coal, natural gas, high grade metal ores) and to increasing competition from other economies (Japan, China, S.Korea, etc.). There’s a lot less to go around now than 30-50 years ago.
But hey, it’s being well shared, right? RIGHT… increasing wealth concentration and massive government bloat. Good luck with that.
Retirement for average people is now a fantasy, for a mix of historical and structural reasons.
P – people following Dennis’s advice will be the ones collecting any surplus. Those not, not.
That may be true, and it’s not my point.
I expect to be able to retire, for a variety of ordinary reasons not that different from yours. HOWEVER, the idea of masses of people, like 90% of the population, being able to retire is no longer realistic, IMHO. Much of the savings you need to retire can only be had, today, if a majority of people are not saving responsibly and you are able to exploit that. The only way that everyone can retire is, as I said above, if there is a major economic surplus that is shared widely.
P – the masses were NEVER going to be able to retire. NEVER.
The capital accumulation required is too substantial, and the will does not exist. Retirement was a giant Ponzi scheme, where the cost of retirement was to be foisted off on the young. Well, the foisting is not going to work, when too many parasites joined the bandwagon, and participation rates are at 60%.
True. Proof? How many generations of humans ever achieved retirement for the masses? Hint: only those that were early to the federal reserve ponzi scheme when frn’s still had some value.
“Will Millenials Ever Be Able To Retire?”
Short answer? No
Not unless major structural changes occur…which they will, whether we like it or not.
No. The last 100ish years is an anomaly. Most of humanity does not produce enough of a surplus to live life large for 25-40 years without having to work.
Multi-generational households, two parent households, and gardening all need to make a come back, because it is not society’s responsibility to keep you alive: its your own.
Hi TPC – trust you are well.
LLPOH – I’m doing well. My wife’s small business has produced enough she is looking at office space and needs a receptionist. One more large contract and I may be leaving my corporate gig to be my own boss. Not a bad life.
How’s life upside down? Still dodging drop bears? Dogs killed anything interesting lately?
Glad to hear, TPC. We are all proud of how you are doing. Will you be the receptionist? 🙂
Dogs gotta eat, too. Keeps the unfriendlies at bay.
Hah, I could have worded that better. No I would be a marketer. We would still need the receptionist! 😛
Our dogs on the farm always found the weirdest stuff. I would have swore that we didn’t have badgers or flying squirrels in the area.
But the dogs left both critters on the front step one day.
I gave up reading when he started his compounding calculation with 4%. There is no such thing anymore as 4% interest. Sure there are “investments” right now earning more than 4%, but their value can go down just as easily (or more easily) than they went up.
Annie – maybe you should have kept reading, given you do not understand the dfference between rate of reurn and interest rate. What was the rate of return on stocks this year? Doh!
What the hell, ignorance is your friend, right?
“Sure there are “investments” right now earning more than 4%, but their value can go down just as easily (or more easily) than they went up.” I.E. there is not a GUARANTEED rate of return on the stock market so Dennis’ example of 4% a year is bullshit regardless. I shouldn’t have had to explain that. Sigh.
There’s a big difference between saving for your retirement and gambling with your retirement savings. Putting the money that you’re depending on for retirement into the stock market is gambling, plain and simple. It may be the only game in town for us normal middle class people because of the continuing squeeze on interest rates, but it is still gambling. Some people will win, some people will lose. Mostly it will be those who are rich getting richer at the expense of the rest of us. The common people that put their money in at the top will lose the most, so you just keep dumping all your money in to the stock market now that it is at an “all time high” because it can’t do anything other than keep going up, right?.
Annie – you have to diversify. Yes, some stock. Property trusts. Foreign investments. Direct property. Utilities. Perhaps partner in a business.
Rich get richer, yes. Not sure at your expense, though. They invest, you sound like you do not. So, they will get richer. Investment > debt. If you do not save, invest, educate, work hard, etc., how is that the fault of anyone but yourself?
Here, this is how I did it:
Age 20 – 30 worked 80+ hrs a week
30 – 35 worked 70 + hrs week
35-40 worked 60
After 40 worked pretty much as I pleased, and still do.
Got BA and MBA
Drove 20 year old car, even while making very significant money
Saved, invested, saved, invested
Skilled up when young
Does that sound like most folks? Like you? Ever worked 100 hr weeks – for years?
And now I get to enjoy my life. And have for some time. And have no time for people saying it sannot be done. Because they are lying to themselves, and anyone who listens.
You think you know me from one answer on one topic? You have “advice” for me? You can take your “advice” and shove it, jackass. Just because I chose not to join the circle jerk of all the other boomers regaling us with how clever and frugal they were and how hard they worked and how successful they were at investing when those stories are just you all jacking off in front of each other and have little to no value in addressing the question of what millenials can do to get in the same place that you think you are now. I did some things wrong and I did some things right and I have retired early with (hopefully) enough wealth to last the rest of my life, but that means jack shit to the millenials the same way your story means jack shit because things are very different now than they were 30 years ago.
Annie – you dumb bimbo. We have answered how it can be done, over and over and over. Education. Hard work. Thrift. Investment. Solid family life. Good values.
But you ignoramuses are too stupid to understand. You prefer to say or believe it does not work, because you are too damn lazy to implement it.
Things are not different. That is bullshit I heard all my career as an excuse for people not to succeed, and they were wrong 100% of the time. That is the excuse losers use to justify failure or not trying. I have heard it thousands of times, and every time I heard it I said to myself Eureka! -here is an opportunity, because people are too stupid to understand things are not different. They never are. The technical issues are a bit different, but it always comes down to applying basic principles. I danced on the career graves of those folks.
No suprise you are too stupid to understand. I have read your other stuff. You have the IQ of a gnat.
You are calling me low IQ? LOL!!! You’re the one who cannot understand what people are saying. You’re the one who is spamming this whole topic with conflicting “advice” and edumacation. You think you know the answer and that you are one of very few who found the answer, yet ANYONE can do now what you say you did then. Which one is it? Are you the messiah doing miracles or are you just an average joe who is doing what anybody can do? You can’t have it both ways. You saying that things are the same as they used to be is equivalent to the US government saying that there hasn’t been any inflation because you can still buy ground beef at the same price as you used to buy a good steak or you can buy a 4 pound bag of sugar at the same price you used to be able to get a 5 pound bag.
You, with your vast intellect, are completely missing the point of the majority of commenters here. We’re not saying that it is impossible, just much harder than it used to be and TPTB have set this up deliberately. 50 – 70 years ago an average person could work for the same company for 20 – 30 years for a wage that would allow them to raise a family on a single salary and they were guaranteed a pension that would allow them to live out their retirement in relative comfort – with SS as a buffer. They could diligently put their extra money in the bank and they were guaranteed around 5% interest which allowed their savings to grow slightly faster than inflation or they paid off their mortgage and their house was guaranteed to increase in value at least on par with inflation so at a minimum they preserved their wealth with no risk to their principle. These things are no longer available – at least in the private sector. If you’re clever, or persistent, or lucky you can still manage to fund your retirement with a diversified portfolio but ALL of the alternatives that match or exceed inflation require active manipulation and have an element of risk and we’re in a 4th turning which will increase that risk AND 99% of the population doesn’t have even my gnatlike IQ so the likelihood of the majority of them being sufficiently clever to choose exactly the right set of alternatives at exactly the right times is close to nil – but not “impossible” – you’re the only one using that term, jackass.
Annie , save your breath Llpoh worked hard long hours and learned and earned his way to a narcissistic attitude and if you and I were as special as he we would understand .
The historical rate of return of stocks – minus inflation and minus the index fiddling done by the exchanges – is way, way below 4%.
C- really, do not post lies. The real rate of return of stocks 1950 – 2009 was 7%. Your comment re fiddling cannot be substantiated.
Ask Buffett how he has done.
Dow went up 24.4% last year. Oops.
Sure stocks are risky. But you have to diversify. Stock. Property. Bonds. Cash. Businesses. There are ways. Learn how. Or not. Whatever. Anybody can do it. But not everybody will.
A 4% return when the real inflation rate is running at 8-10% means you are losing money. And if the interest is not sheltered in some type of non-taxable retirement account, then the capital gains will also take its pound of flesh. Best solution: become self sufficient and off the grid in a local community where you can control property taxes..and then work the underground economy providing basic services and products to others.
Retirement is unlikely, but being tossed out of jobs in old (as in 50+) age is a near-certainty. Prepare for it.
First, why did Dennis’ daughter have college debt? Was he too stupid to tell her that College isn’t an all-expenses-paid extension of adolescence, and that if she “fell in love with the campus” she’d be paying for each and every tree? Did she “study” some useless field? When a college degree can cost $100K to $250K(!!!), how on Earth do people approach it so casually?
I have….
Three sons.
Each has a B.S. degree in STEM.
Not one dollar in Student Loans (two of the three married girls who had the reverse-dowry of college debt, which was retired on a rapid plan.)
Some of that was hard work on their part, some of it was frugality on mine, and most of it was recognizing that Universities are in the business of ROBBING YOUNG ADULTS BLIND and that if you let them, they’ll steal your next decade of income.
If you’re too stupid to approach “higher ed” with cold-blooded efficiency and a complete grasp of the consequences of your decisions, I have NO PITY for you.
Barnum – you, sir, are a dick. It was his granddaughter.
“approach “higher ed” with cold-blooded efficiency”
We told our kids they could only major in engineering or computer science, if we were to pay for it. Well we paid for it and both kids are doing well in their STEM careers. We gave them no choice in the matter and thank God we didn’t.
I’m glad that worked out for you. I am quite sure most kids would have told you to pound sand.
I agree with Annie and WDG.. Real inflation is far above the official 2% (A five pound bag of sugar is now four pounds and costs exactly the same – that’s also inflation). A 4% rate of return – if you can find it – will be, at this time, a risky investment that guarantees a 4%-6% loss of purchasing power every year.
For the last number of years, except for stocks and housing, inflated thanks to $$trillions of QE to drive them ever higher, have been the only way to exceed the monetary inflation rate.
I have zero debt – and have had since 1973 when I went overseas to work. At 80 years old, I’m still not sure whether the bastards will figure out a way to fuck me out of what capital I’ve accumulated before I die. To make a huge understatement: The times they are uncertain and I’m still betting on the real world coming out on top sooner than later. May I die before that happens!
muck
Hi Muck – how are you? I mentioned you by name above. I use you as an example of how these things are done, as I admire all you accomplished. If the govt steals everything from everyone, no one is safe. But we cannot run our lives expecting that will happen.
” If the govt steals everything from everyone, no one is safe. But we cannot run our lives expecting that will happen.”
You MUST run your lives expecting that will happen.
Three years back a socialist President and Congress rammed a mandatory health-insurance provision law through on a party-line (Demoncratic) vote. It created a new obligation for every working American while demolishing existing coverages without replacing THEM with anything worthwhile. My tax obligation went up over $7500 overnight. Only because I had enough room on a credit card was I able to pay (charge) it.
Why, Dennis, do you think no future President / Congress will do anything so foolish? With ObamaDontCare as a precedent, why not any other knotheaded idea (Globull Warming, Wealth Inequality, Gender Pay Discrepancy) that comes along, in spades?
You may be able to retire, but with automatic bank bail-ins (deposit confiscation) where are you planning on keeping it? If they triple your property taxes after you retire, will you be able to keep your house?
You will end up fighting for your life against those who pay no taxes, because their EBT cards quit working and you still have a loaf of bread and they don’t. PLAN ACCORDINGLY.
James – if you expect it, then you will do nothing to accumulate wealth. Why would you, if you expect it to be stolen.
Dutchman says, “First off, what is retirement?”
Well, Paul Harvey said “retirement is practicing up to be dead.”
I would add that “retirement” in the sense of how most boomers understand it was an anomaly. Maybe retirement will be only for government workers and those who look out for themselves.
I believe “retirement” is quite a “modern” invention, and a few generations experienced it, and many people came to expect it.
I suspect that throughout history people didn’t retire, rather they “slowed down”. If they farmed, they moved into the little cottage out back, and their son took over the running of the place, while the old folks helped out best they could.
Those who lived in town likely got along as best they could as they aged, then moved in with family at some point.
Maybe that’s not how it is currently done in “murrica”, but likely it will be good enough for me.
Set aside that I’ve been told all my life I will never be able to retire because my elders are gonna chew the meat and fat off the bone before we can make it to the table– I don’t want to retire. I saw my ALL grandparents just drift aimlessly through life with a monthly check until they died.
Also, Government sponsored retirement is a socialist concept. Not everybody contributes their fair share to society to be able to retire at 65 years old.
Steph – I recommend retiring to acreage. Plenty to keep a person busy.
Funny you should mention it, that’s exactly what I intend to do in the next few years. Already saving so I can start a pottery/ceramics studio and build an outdoor kiln. I’m thinking it could keep me busy for the next 50 years.
How hard is it to meet EPA, State, and Local regulations on a commercial kiln nowadays?
Probably the same as building a brick BBQ in your backyard. They’re not that big and kilns can fire a lot of pottery with a small amount of space.
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Might I suggest basketweaving?
Bahahahahahaha!
Hi Steph, I thought about going into pottery many years ago (I was probably about your age now), but I didn’t get any farther than taking some classes. At that point there wasn’t much money in either production pottery or teaching, but probably enough to live on if I was conservative with my funds. The thing that really stopped me was the thought of making the same bowl or the same mug over, and over, and over, for years on end. I guess there’s a kind of a Zen to doing the same thing over and over, but it wasn’t for me. I don’t get along with people well enough to teach classes either. Too bad you don’t live closer, I have an old kick wheel and small electric kiln out in the barn that somebody gave me years ago that I never even set up. They may still be usable.
The old kick wheel would still be usable. Gotta love primitive technology for its sustainability. It does have a zen aspect for me. Plus, I’ve already done it before. I just didn’t have my own studio.
You’re on the right track, but there is no fucking future in making pottery. Two things lead to success in the craft business:
1) Make something that people will buy more than once. Food is best (cheese, beer, hummus, fancy fucking mayonnaise…it doesnt matter. For me I find it hard to find good potato salad in the grocery store…or cooking sauces that are worth a fuck for that matter.
2) Make something that you can’t find in a store.
Depends on the quality of the craftsmanship. Yeah, if you assume pottery equals trying to sell basic mugs it wouldn’t be profitable. That’s mostly the only thing a novice can make from a basic community style class. There’s a lot of products a potter can make outside of bowls and mugs.
Zara, you will never find good store bought potato salad because home made potato salad only has a shelf life of about 3 days. Not to mention that potato salad is like chili and meat loaf, it’s subjective. We all have our own recipes.
I was going to make soap but everyone and his brother is doing that now. I think I will just make it for myself.
I can make a paleo Pecan Pie with a layer of chocolate on the bottom that is to die for but it’s quite expensive. I don’t think anyone would ever buy it for what I would have to sell it for. You never know, though.
Mary,
I am a food engineer. I have doing this a long time. I live in Dallas TX now, but if I go a Tom Thumb grocery (which has the exact format of Safeway, a west coast chain that was bought by Albertson’s), the potato salad they sell is Reser’s, which is made in Beaverton Oregon. I know the plant very well.
Reser’s isnt even good if you eat it within 3 days. I am certain that an enterprising could better producing locally, but more important than that, using a superior recipe and ingredients.
But potato salad is easy. There is no skill in that. I would rather make artisan cheeses myself…using the finest quality milk, processing it gently. There arent many US companies who do that, or even know how.
I doubt you or I will ever retire, Steph, at least in the contemporary sense of the word. But I wholeheartedly agree about keeping busy. My dad retired in 1987. For the better part of 30 years he kept busy consulting, day trading, church and helping others. Probably made more money most years in retirement than he ever did working for the USGS. More importantly, he stayed engaged and healthy because he didn’t just drift.
Clammy will make because of the attitude!
Compounding is magic, yes. I have heard the Einstein quote and have done the math repeatedly. I get exponential curves….and I also get that they always collapse. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING TIME.
Saving is wise, it is good for the soul, it is a good habit. Also a very good way to get fucked ( perhaps) is to save paper and computer bits quantified in a dying fiat currency. This article very clearly shows the best path to retirement over the LAST 75 years. In other words, since the last 4th Turning.
I changed my perspective on investing after I read a story about a man whose father had bought 20 year bonds in his youth… in Germany. By the time his father’s bonds had matured the 1920’s hyperinflation hit its peak making his 20 year investment moot.
While it’s an anecdotal story it makes its point. Our investments will always be at the mercy of government stupidity and geo-political risk.
Conversely, there’s a story about an American student living in Germany in the early twenties. His parents send him dollars every month ($20 or $50 I think, not a whole lot) anyway, he was over two years able to buy the whole block where he lived. He became a very wealthy landlord. I heard another story about a kid who bought a hotel with a single ounce of gold.
My point is always about adjusting your thinking and not fighting the last war.
Currency is relative, saving in any particular currency a risk.
Very true. My hunch is the Millennials are going to become an agricultural/trade generation after this 4th turning. We were born at a time very disconnected to the real world. We were born at the peak of corporate commercialism and materialism. The system had always been over complex and filled with jargon. We then got the “pleasure” of having the internet attached to every aspect of our lives.
Soon there’s going to be a break down and a push towards simplicity.
That’s the way I see it. The big problem is complexity doesn’t give way to simplicity without violence. I’m not sure the world can survive the transition. I hope so.
Just invest in Bitcoin, ether looks good too, and everything will work out just fine.
I was invested in Bitcoin and traded in other cryptos. While it was a fun experiment it’s not a currency. It doesn’t work as a currency and it’s over-hyped. I quickly got bored of it.
Interesting you got out. Did you do well? I’m starting to trade in Cryptos now…not just to buy and hold, but to take advantage (possibly) of the volatility (possibly a repeat of BTFD?). In any case, only have a small amount of skin in the game.
I made a decent return considering I got out of it before the election. I got turned off it because I being paid for freelance writing about Bitcoin… in Bitcoin. I got bored of it after a few months because of its limitations. Sure, I benefited when the price went up, but it’s value is entirely dependent on being tied to fiat money. It’s going to hit a wall when profits from mining aren’t worth it anymore. Profits from mining are tied to electricity which is tied to the price of oil. It’s easy to spot it’s broader limitations after a few months of playing with it.
Please excuse the pedantry, but putting “money” into crypto-currencies is not “investment” but “speculation”; the tangible value of any digital or paper currency is nil. Once upon a time I was a professional speculator but never deceived myself that I was “investing”; true “investing” began when I cashed out 20 years ago and turned the “money” into things I can touch and see on a daily basis.
I agree. I am looking at cryptos from a speculation POV. People made a lot of money speculating in stocks in the past 7 years of BTFD. I think that trend is played. Once the markets start their inevitable descent, I think a lot of “money” might flood into cryptos–people will look at them as a hedge, one that have never before existed.
I guess the bigger question I would pose is: what is the fundamental difference between speculation and investment. I mean, obviously time scale would come to mind. Where’s the dividing line?
I relate to the gents above who did it with hard work, frugality, scrapping for side gigs when times got lean. Learned late, at 30! a difficult, but successful strategy. 10% at minimum off the top of your income. Sock it away & never uproot that savings/investable money tree that’s yours to keep when earned. Amazing how fast it will accumulate. Then live, pay off debts with the remainder. Don’t buy expensive shit you don’t need. Minimize the high cost monthly bills. You really need 200+ cable channels? Or $6 latte from Starfucks ea. day? Hardest part is making wise decisions when you have excess $. Investments should be either income generating, or min. risk, max potential growth. When I bought my house and was earning good wages, I didn’t borrow or spend on a new kitchen or bathroom, even though those have good ROI when selling, if the market is good (timing). I paid as much extra on that principal mortgage loan amount. House is adequate, not an Mcmansion. Free & clear now. Buying a brand new car was doable once, but that most recent move was stupid, as they depreciate so much. Yup. A 2-3 year old used one w low miles on Odo is the wiser move. I haven’t spent at a shopping mall in years. I see women in my circles always buying things they think they need, or want & justify it because they work hard, & should enjoy the fruits of labor. Fine, but when you have enough clothes & shoes to dress 50, you’re spending too much, & not saving enough. So keep punching that clock baby. I still do it, because I can and want to. Llpoh is right. It’s tough as a MFer to get ahead, but it can be done. The easy paths to it are few. Look in the mirror for blame, then start a new path. Enter independent wealth thru the narrow gate, not the wide one, where the herd goes. Again, I say for the kids: The Richest Man in Babylon by George Clason. Think & Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill. Lead the Field, by Earl Nightengale. Tons of resources and mentors out there, if one needs new strategies. Debt slavery must be minimal, if not eliminated. Done. Off the soapbox.
Congrats, Card802. I hope to be able to follow your plan. Cheers.
Shit, my dad at 49, uncle at 51, grandfather at 60, all of massive heart attacks, all on BP/cholesteral meds.
If I make it to 60 I’m doing good, and plan on going out in the near future like I came in:
BROKE, SCREAMING, AND COVERED IN ANOTHER’S BLOOD.
I hope it’s a LIEyer/politico/gov-agent – it’s a target-rich turkey-shoot.
I’ve got around 30 years hunting/stalking/shooting, 4 years in unit tactics/explosives, a dozen years in the woods working, welding, hospital, transport, building, mechanic, electrical, plumbing, gardening, canning, shining, city and rural experience.
My savings go into tools, bullets, primers, food, powder, clothing, lubricants, seeds, consumables and such.
I once had a 401k, but that was before shit blew up a decade ago.
Next blow-up is gonna be epic, and I don’t give a shit if most people survive it or not.
But it’ll be sporty for those who know you can’t live forever!
Guess I triggered some folks.
Most folks are idiots financially, so it was to be expected. The amount of bad advice of the “it cannot be done” or “4% is impossible” type is astonishing. What a bunch of maroons. The denial runs deep, even on TBP.
Anyone who wants can build enough capital to retire. Not everyone. But anyone. And that is the point Dennis makes, in my opinion. His examples prove it, as do the many examples others have given here.
But hey, it is easier to go into debt, work few hours, get a substandard education, and marry bimbos, right? It is easy to deny what an investment really is. And it is easy to work until you die. Go for it. Enjoy the cat food. I made different choices. As did otheres. They are to be commended.
The biggest risk they face is that the losers will want to tax and take what they made, envious of their success. Hope that does not happen.
Here Llpoh, you can have some fun with this one. I read this and literally laughed out loud. Nowhere in the piece do they suggest that this woman might, oh I don’t know, become more productive? The Real Future of Work – POLITICO Magazine
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/04/future-work-independent-contractors-alternative-work-arrangements-216212. Edit- and let me memorialize this little tidbit. It’s a good one. “Hard times creates enormous opportunity for the prepared. Always has. Always will.” Can’t add anything to that
Thanks, Star. Read that article. The thing these folks do not understand is that you cannot force employers to hire workers.
The more you try to make employers hire, keep, pay high wages and benefits, etc., the fewer workers they hire. I am currently in Italy. Unemployment for under 25s is above 40%. Why? One reason is because it is so hard to fire workers. There are dud workers everywhere. Companies would love to fire them and hire the young. But cannot. Companies would love to grow, but cannot, because it is impossible to get rid of someone once hired. So you can never become more efficient.
So Italy is screwed.
The thing that most people NEED to realize is the same thing most people FAIL to realize.
Your income is the ONLY resource you will ever have to build wealth…..period! Nobody is just going to show up out of the blue and hand you a wad of cash. Chances are you will never win the lottery. Very few will ever receive a substantial inheritance. Among those that do “suddenly” come into money, the vast majority will squander it away before they know it.
It’s your daily, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly income that provides you with your only opportunity to build real and lasting wealth. Squander it and you’re fucked. Plain and simple!
Also, “your income” doesn’t just mean your job. It means trade for service. Hobbies that make life easier/cheaper (gardening/chickens), it means side jobs and favors, friends networks and family members.
Don’t put your eggs all in one basket. Income is more than just a job; its your life.
Any millenial that is a real go-getter in this environment will kill it. Why? Because so few millenials are real go-getters. If they are mechanically inclined and curious they sky is the limit as opportunities are everywhere.
Millennial go-getters will only kill it if they work for themselves/start their own business.
This is a shout out to the handful of you millennial-lurkers that bother with the comments section:
If you stay corporate; you will not be promoted. You will not get raises. They will expect 5X the productivity to make up for the network of Boomers that refuse to retire due to bad investment/retirement plans. They want you to hang on for the next 15 years funding their stupidity while you never make it above middle-management.
Want to “kill it”? Break free, and start your own business. The days where you could make 6-figures (inflation adjusted) while only working 9-5 are long gone. Make peace with that, and do better than your parents. Your road is not as easy or as clear, but it certainly still exists.
America is a troubled place, but its still the best country on Earth for a young person who wants to make their way in the world.
TPC – without going into much detail, I am very familiar with a young person of 26 currently making $325k a year in the corp. world.
I believe you are mistaken with some of what you say. I know many young folks that are being promoted over the heads of boomers. But the are not your average young.
The problem is the young do not make themselves promotable. If one of them works 80 or 100 hrs a week and has talent, they tend to get promoted and fast. If they work 40 hrs a week, they are going nowhere, not now not ever.
Hey llpoh, your downvotes indicate that the jerk off class hasn’t got a clue. Wear the downvotes with pride and smile politely when you see them begging for change on the street corners.
There’s only two attitudes you can take……success or failure. Neither one guarantees an outcome but one will work better than the other. Besides, what other options are there? Wallow in self pity?
IS – I know who the winners are. They are folks such as yourself. You, card, etc should be most proud.
People want to justify their failures by saying it is impossible to do. The more of them there are, the easier it is for folks such as yourself to make good.
Again, I made my career doing that which others said could not be done. Those sheep will be shorn in bad times. Good for us, unfortunate for them.
llpoh, Would you mind if we trade email through admin? I’d like to pick your brain. Admin has mine as well as my permission to pass it on to you. I’ll email him in case he doesn’t see this.
No problem IS.