“Godlessness: The First Step Toward the Gulag”

What’s missing in this famous painting?

In 1983, Solzhenitsyn received the Templeton Prize. This is an award presented by the Templeton Foundation in Pennsylvania. It is an annual award given to a living person who, in the estimation of the judges, “has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery or practical works.”

Upon receiving the award at age 65, Solzhenitsyn delivered an address titled, “Godlessness: The First Step Toward the Gulag.”

He began with a reminiscence from his childhood:

More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.

Then, picking up steam, like a black preacher who gets into a cadence and starts repeating a word or phrase, Solzhenitsyn began to emphasize his point over and over:

Since then I have spent well–nigh fifty years working on the history of our [Russian] revolution. In the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort to clear away the rubble left by that upheaval.

But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous revolution that swallowed up some sixty–million people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: Men have forgotten God; that’s why all this has happened.

Nor did he leave it there. As if he wanted to make certain that his audience was getting the point, he repeated it again:

What emerges here is a process of universal significance. And if I were called upon to identify briefly the principle trait of the entire 20th Century, here too, I would be unable to find anything more precise and pithy to repeat once again: Men have forgotten God.

He then proceeded to warn that the Western World “is experiencing a drying up of religious consciousness.” He said this was happening because “the meaning of life in the West has ceased to be seen as anything more than the ‘pursuit of happiness…'”

Another problem he identified was the refusal of people to realize the evil that is in the individual human heart and the consequent unwillingness to declare anything as good or evil. The result, he declared, is that the West “is ineluctably slipping toward the abyss.”

Solzhenitsyn emphasized that we in the West must come to the realization “that human salvation can be found neither in the profusion of material goods nor in merely making money.” Rather, the aim should be “the quest of worthy spiritual growth.” He then asserted that Mankind’s hope can be found only by redirecting our consciousness “in repentance to the Creator of all; without this, no exit will be illumined, and we shall seek it in vain.”

Putting the same thought in different words, Solzhenitsyn concluded his remarks by urging his listeners to engage in “a determined quest for the warm hand of God, which we have so rashly and self–confidently spurned.”

His Concluding Years

In 1990 Solzhenitsyn’s Soviet citizenship was restored, and in 1994 he and his wife returned to Russia where they settled near Moscow. He had been married twice and had fathered three sons by his second wife. He died in 2008 of heart failure at the age of 89. He was buried at a monastery in Moscow.

The Bible says that a prophet never finds honor in his own country. Nor did Solzhenitsyn in his or in his adopted country. His native country expelled him, and America shut its ears to his fervent warnings and his pleas to return to God. We are now suffering the consequences.

Why is America today all fucked up? Because .....

You have forgotten the God of your salvation
And have not remembered the Rock of your refuge.

.

Oh, yeah ... I didn't forget all the other reasons; Joos! Kneegrows! Beaners, especially the illegal ones. One percenters! And even non-human entities, such as, Da Fed. Get rid of all these shitty things, and America will be great again. Believe me.

Jesus wept.

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Author: Stucky

I'm right, you're wrong. Deal with it.

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208 Comments
ILuvCO2
ILuvCO2
January 7, 2018 8:46 am

balls?

Zach
Zach
January 7, 2018 9:11 am

Well done. Isn’t it interesting how much wisdom Russian authors have provided us. Add to Solzhnitsyn’s studied insight Dostoyeksky’s that if there’s no God then anything is permissible. Were both of these men alive today and took a cold, hard look at America, I’m thinking they’d agree that in this country anything indeed is permissible and not only permitted but worshiped. The steps whereby evil becomes good go like this:

1. Tolerance
2. Acceptance
3. Embracing
4. Celebrating
5. Worshiping (i.e., bowing to)

The reason simply can’t be said better than Solzhnitsyn said it.

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  Zach
January 9, 2018 3:58 am

Zach- You forgot service. Faith without works is dead.

Uncola
Uncola
January 7, 2018 9:18 am

Collectivism is a false type of love for mankind that only results in shared failure, diminished responsibility, and a widespread lack of accountability. Groupthink is a fantastic method to lower individual intelligence and, at the same time, it is a main reason behind why shit happens. Not to mention that collectivists take themselves way too seriously. They lack a sense of humor, yet the joke is on them. It’s an ironical paradox.

Excellent, Stucky. Is wild that our two posts today kinda, sorta complement each other.

Mary Christine
Mary Christine
  Stucky
January 7, 2018 9:55 am

You forgot to add “awesome”. Just trying to help with the comment count:)

Maggie
Maggie
  Mary Christine
January 8, 2018 6:41 am

You did good. Now it is around 91, which means I need to lurk and try to hit the one hundred mark before you know what coyote critter shows up.

Mary… I told my husband I plan to meet you and that he is invited. He still kind of thinks of TBP as the chat group I quit smoking with years ago. Is kind of cute, isn’t it?

Uncola
Uncola
  Stucky
January 7, 2018 1:22 pm

Serendipity? Synergy? Or random chaos?

Like Forest Gump’s feather, maybe it’s a little of both.

Deacon Bainbridge to Daniel Durand after a game of cards:

‘The crowd never thinks. People are only comfortable in a pack, and they’re most comfortable in one that’s racing off a cliff.’

-Gore, Robert. (2013). “The Golden Pinnacle”, Chapter 2, page 41

Mrs. Frued
Mrs. Frued
  Stucky
January 7, 2018 3:28 pm

OMG!!! That’s Stucky naked. I’d recognize that body anywhere. I’m still pissed he didn’t get the viper

RiNS
RiNS
  Mrs. Frued
January 7, 2018 7:10 pm

now that s funny

pyrrhus
pyrrhus
  Stucky
January 8, 2018 1:21 pm

“Jesus wept” was a very appropriate ending….grats Stucky!

suzanna
suzanna
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 1:53 pm

You boys are smarties, insightful, and thanks for
reinforcing what we should always know.

Crat
Crat
January 7, 2018 9:24 am

“It’s an universal law– intolerance is the first sign of an inadequate education. An ill-educated person behaves with arrogant impatience, whereas truly profound education breeds humility.”

Aleksander Solzhenitsyn

Janet Wilkie
Janet Wilkie
  Crat
January 9, 2018 10:27 pm

Perfectly true, because a good education will clonk you over the head enough times to beat some humility into it. Speaking from experience.

southeuropean counterpart
southeuropean counterpart
January 7, 2018 9:37 am

…yes,the damage is even greater.
Two biggest christian nation in the world shut its ears to his pleas to return to God.
…so, what one direction culd fly spiritual mood in an peripheral, insignificantly small Christian community?

I have spent all my life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society without any objective legal scale is a terrible one indeed. But a society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy of man either.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

BL
BL
January 7, 2018 9:41 am

I do dearly despise what the American people have become. I weep for what the churches in America have become. Satan won the last century and is winning the first part of the twenty first, so how do we turn this around?

Our people mold themselves into the godless characters they see on tv sitcoms and reality shows, while they worship money and materialism. Billionaires and mobsters are the new gods to be worshiped which is most sickening.

There is a need for reformation of religious institutions and return to the bible as it was written. If this country continues to flounder without a godly direction, we are doomed to the gulag. Solzhenitsyn was right on the mark as to what brought down Russia along with the hidden hand.

Great food for thought and well done Stucky, simple and to the point, so what do we do starting today other than just talk about it?

Anonymous
Anonymous
  BL
January 7, 2018 10:18 am

“so how do we turn this around?”

Get a real Pope.

flash
flash
  BL
January 7, 2018 10:37 am

All true BL.
When feral culture becomes mainstream, the fall is not that far off.

BL
BL
  flash
January 7, 2018 5:49 pm

Flash- Happy New Year!!
First time I have seen you since we entered 2018, hope you are doing well. Keep the faith Flash.

Dave
Dave
  BL
January 7, 2018 2:20 pm

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and love others as you love yourself. (Luke 10:27)

Ripples in the pond.

Mary Christine
Mary Christine
January 7, 2018 9:56 am

I have some thoughts but as I told Uncola, I have made a promise and will be away all day. I would rather be able to produce a thoughtful reply then a hurried one.

Maggie
Maggie
  Mary Christine
January 7, 2018 10:04 am

I’ll be thinking about it today. We should be able to fix all this, right?

Bombs
Bombs
  Maggie
January 8, 2018 4:33 pm

With the reset button perhaps…?

karalan
karalan
January 7, 2018 10:18 am

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
No, I didn’t think of that. Look it up.

Vixen Vic
Vixen Vic
  karalan
January 8, 2018 12:10 am

No need to look it. I love John Lennon.

Vixen Vic
Vixen Vic
  Vixen Vic
January 8, 2018 12:12 am
Anonymous
Anonymous
  Vixen Vic
January 8, 2018 10:21 am

Anyone who thinks Yoko can sing ain’t got too much on the ball.

Vixen Vic
Vixen Vic
  Anonymous
January 8, 2018 9:58 pm

I agree.

RiNS
RiNS
January 7, 2018 10:50 am

Interesting synergy today.

[imgcomment image[/img]

The fear of the many is the power of the individual.
The reason America is so fucked up today…

There is a cure for Jock Itch and consequently no excuse for scratching yer ballz…

[imgcomment image[/img]

Yet people still do!

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 10:41 am

Who needs an excuse to scratch their balls?

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 10:57 am

None really I suppose, but to be polite, or otherwise be accused of nihilism, best to at least ask to enjoy the benefits of civil society…..

So in that way Itchy Ballz are much like God and the Cherch…. Folks fumble with them because they have always been there…

Time to get scratchin’…..

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  RiNS
January 9, 2018 4:17 am

RiNS- Not sure what the tinactin thing has to do with any of this, I guess it’s a guy thing, but i agree with your point on why America is so fucked up today! There are just too many cults in America. People don’t even realize it. Just all of the 501 and 503cs alone! Thousands of them! Then they combine, and you get the DNC and RNC, which essentially have reunited into the Democratic Republican party since the Clintons, rallying around permanent war, unfettered trade, Wall St. dominance, anarcho-corporatism, police state fascism, and both parties with their conned sheeple freaks and varying fringe groupes rallying around the same principles, and totally clueless.

Houston Davis
Houston Davis
January 7, 2018 11:01 am

How do we get there?
With loving, intact committed families. Thereby rendering government intrusion in our live unnecessary.
And how do we get to the above?
Any thoughts?

Llpoh
Llpoh
January 7, 2018 11:09 am

I met him/heard him a time or two. The circles I was in at the time were such that I encountered a number of famous literary folk – Weisel, Greer, Solzhenitsyn, etc. He lived not far away from Dartmouth, in Vermont by memory. He did not make a huge impression, save for the wonder and awe we had for all he had been through.

If godlessness is equivalent to loss of humanity, then I agree. I have known too many supposedly god fearing folk that were evil to the core.

SVarghese
SVarghese
  Llpoh
January 8, 2018 1:36 am

LLPOH, You are right. I have seen that some of the most evil individuals were/are the God fearing ones. But the issue is not about what one says. The issue is what one does. Faith without works is dead. If someone believes that Jesus is “The lamb of God who takes away the sins of this world” or “His name shall be called Jesus because He will deliver His people from their sins” then it is incumbent upon the believer to live out his faith.

The far deeper question is how do you measure morality? Is it the constitution? If that is the case the liberals and communists will change the constitution every few months. Is it the social contract? But then depending on the population distribution (evil versus good, rich versus poor and so on..) the social contract will be aligned to benefit the majority.

This is where God come in. Morality has to be transcendent and beyond the control and influence of any one individual or a group. Unless there is a Holy and transcendent God there cannot be any enduring morality.

I have a friend from the Jain religion who says morality is relative. One day he said Indian policemen are corrupt. Incidentally he parked his car at a position which was not No-Parking zone. Despite that he was given a ticket. The policeman says “prove it is in a parking allowed zone”. Yes morality is relative and the policeman decides whether my friend is right or wrong. Good luck.

wdg
wdg
January 7, 2018 11:18 am

I came to the conclusion a decade or so ago that you cannot have a moral and free people without God and the evidence of degeneracy and unspeakable evil all around us and at the highest levels supports this conclusion. Solzhenitsyn who witnessed depravity and mass murder on an unimaginable scale in Bolshevik Russia and as a prisoner in the Gulags saw very clearly where the western world was headed long before most of us realized that we were on the path to national suicide. He also correctly diagnosed the cause which is a rejection of God and the embrace of Satan. The good news is that the Russian people who suffered under Communism have embraced both Solzhenitsyn and the Russian Orthodox church based on the true teachings of Christ, unlike the mostly corrupt “Christian” churches – or should I say Satanic churches – in the US and throughout the western world.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (1918-2008), Nobel-Prize-winning novelist, historian and critic of Communist totalitarianism:
“You must understand. The leading Bolsheviks who took over Russia were not Russians. They hated Russians. They hated Christians. Driven by ethnic hatred they tortured and slaughtered millions of Russians without a shred of human remorse. The October Revolution was not what you call in America the “Russian Revolution.” It was an invasion and conquest over the Russian people. More of my countrymen suffered horrific crimes at their bloodstained hands than any people or nation ever suffered in the entirety of human history. It cannot be understated. Bolshevism was the greatest human slaughter of all time. The fact that most of the world is ignorant of this reality is proof that the global media itself is in the hands of the perpetrators.”

Llpoh
Llpoh
  wdg
January 7, 2018 11:36 am

Wdg – the dead in God’s name are infinite. God has nothing to do with anything. He will not intervene.

The world needs humanity.

RiNS
RiNS
  wdg
January 7, 2018 12:03 pm

wdg

So the solution to the perils of the collectivism of socialism is to herd everyone into a church each Sunday. Doesn’t that just exchange one ism for another?

BL
BL
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 12:56 pm

RiNS- Just a tidbit of info regarding church attendance, 64% of Americans attend church monthly, 49% attend weekly and they are far from godly these days. The trannies and the homo/lesbo married couples on the front pew are tip off as to the level that church doctrine has devolved.

Your “ism” theory does not hold water. Any other ideas?

RiNS
RiNS
  BL
January 7, 2018 1:21 pm

64 percent..; citation please… I’d say bullshit to that! It ain’t that way where I live. Even my Dad, who is 81 doesn’t go to church anymore. The ism theory works just fine. Why is it that so many need a “Daddy” to plod their way thru life. All the pissing and moaning Solzhenitsyn did about the Gulags and his solution.

Church!

Whatta fucken’ hypocrite!
He had no faith in the individual.
His solution….
Get them dumb fucks all back to church.
Replace the trains to Siberia with
A ordered procession to the pew.

As fer all the spectacle in the front that you mention. Well it is just the sucking sound made when things are circling the drain and with a bit of Stockholm Syndrome mixed in…

[imgcomment image[/img]

Don’t mind the screams because

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvz-fYbFN_o

BL
BL
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 1:58 pm

RiNS- In my vast and varied research of Russia, I found that US stats are often mixed in to compare attendance rates. Now, whether you like it or not, those were the stats. Pew research stats are easily available, below is a Wiki you can scroll through to show WEEKLY attendance per each state and it shows the US at 47%, where the stats I found by Pew were at 49% published more recently. The figure of 64% is for Americans who do not attend weekly but perhaps monthly or at least at times during the year but are not in church every Sunday. If you have something that disputes that, bring it to the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance

RiNS
RiNS
  BL
January 7, 2018 3:15 pm

Well I went to church last night to listen to Christmas Carols. Does that make me one of those gosh darn Chrispins. According to you it seems..

Gotta say the Jebus songs are lame!

Hark The Herald.. why bother, he aint listenin’
Oh come all ye faithful.. waste of time, he dont care..

Stucky asked for a couple of miracles the other day just to help the Doubting Thomas to believe. Me not so much. Jesus can keep his miracles.

Ya want me to believe then how about a little smackdown every once in a while. The Swamp is comitting fuckery on this world and needs a beat down now.

And Odin better get his ass in gear as well. Quit with the liquor and whores and get back here. Stucky is right the whole Ice Giant Smackdown is just as tired as the bread and fishes fiasco in Judea.

He shoulda let those dumb cunts starve or go back to Egypt..

Yours in Odin, fer now…

RiNS

RiNS

Mrs. Frued
Mrs. Frued
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 3:39 pm

Rob. I’ll bet you went to church as a boy. I’ll bet you’re ignorant as to value you got out of it. When we were kids, the deal was pretty simple. You went to school five days a week, and became literate. And on Sunday’s you got a dose of morality, to develop that part of you. Children were taught the codes to living in a civil society. Most aetheists were brought up in the church, and make the assumption the morality they feel is intrinsic, and doesn’t need to be taught and nurtured. They would be wrong. The corruption of the church is as responsible as anything else for the downfall of our societies.

EL Coyote
EL Coyote
  Mrs. Frued
January 7, 2018 4:20 pm

Stuck recruited Mrs. F to help pad his comment count?

Maggie
Maggie
  EL Coyote
January 7, 2018 4:40 pm

Guy has no shame, does he?

starfcker
starfcker
  EL Coyote
January 7, 2018 7:41 pm

Shhhhh… I fucked up. Maybe he won’t notice

BL
BL
  EL Coyote
January 7, 2018 10:12 pm

Star- I am shocked that you have doppled MF, but at least you are no longer shadowing me. 🙂

RiNS
RiNS
  Mrs. Frued
January 7, 2018 4:38 pm

My problem with faith is it has none in the individual. Why is it that folks like you think that only way to provide a moral compass is to go the church. Believe. In what? You don’t need a book to be nice. My Sons are proof of that. One goes to church and the other two will never set foot in one. All three are doing just fine.

As for the moral teachings on Sunday it didn’t work for me. One time when I was 11 or so, confirmation or confession not sure but, I got into an argument with a teacher about Immaculate Conception. I thought it was bullshit and told her so. And I still passed. Hilarious! Even then, in Catechism they push the studentz along. Yep I was quite the contrarian…

This belief that children need to be taught about the Sky Daddy to live in a civil society and that there is no other way is juvenile. It treats everyone as children, young and old alike.

And yes I do find it highly amusing that the prescription to the evils of socialism, where the citizens are enslaved in gulags to the State, is to reach for a book that does it to one’s mind.

Maybe I will read the gulag archipelago. Been told its a good book. Still if Solzhenitsyn after all that pissing and moaning figures that best way forward is to return to the past then the mistakes are bound to repeat again.

Why return to faith you allude
It is a donkey dressed a trojan horse.
And if pushed back inside the gate.
It will set fire again to this place.

And it really isn’t faith at all.
It is instead the absence of and
The rejection of the individual

starfcker
starfcker
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 7:40 pm

“You don’t need a book to be nice. My Sons are proof of that” RiNS, you tell yourself that. You’d be quite mistaken. To deny your kids the wisdom of your civilization and to replace it with the limited knowledge base of one middle aged man is perilous. Aren’t you the guy here racked with misgivings about past actions? Yet you are so sure. Think about it this way. What is science? Science is everything man has ever learned about the physical world since day one. The valuable discoveries of generations of human beings, with each one riding the shoulders of the generations before them, adding to our collective knowledge of how the world works. Our generation (liberalism) has corrupted that. Do you think science taught in schools right now are giving kids a firm foundation? Of course not. But it’s not that all that hard earned knowledge doesn’t still exist. Or do you think that knowledge doesn’t require a book? Morality is no different than science. And Christianity is that wisdom and knowledge passed down through generations that allow us to function as a society without killing each other.

starfcker
starfcker
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 7:51 pm

“And it really isn’t faith at all.
It is instead the absence of and
The rejection of the individual” Well, yes. One individual can never figure out what countless others have learned the hard way, through the experiences of others, and passed on via the teachings and traditions of Christianity. To me, God is like Santa Claus. Every time a person doesn’t do something bad because they are afraid they will go to hell, we win as a society. A kid’s behavior can be modified because Santa will know if he is naughty or nice. Coincidence? Santa’s real name is St. Nicholas. Not a muzzie name

RiNS
RiNS
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 8:37 pm

star

My Sons were taught to read.
They can think for themselves.

As for misgivings
I have had a few.
To put it to rest
I told all of you.

To be made the goat
Instead of the man
Ego then deflated
Now see it was the plan

starfcker
starfcker
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 10:03 pm

Rob, it’s funny that there has been so much arguement about Jews, and their role in the destruction of western civilization. Does nobody pay attention to Llpoh at all? He’s told you a million times the secrets to their success. Family, education, tradition, hard work, thrift. So easy a cave man could do it. The threat to western civilization isn’t Jews, it’s liberals such as yourself that squander the hard won knowledge and traditions that made our civilization the best in the history of the world. WE. Had better ideas. You celebrate throwing them away for nothing. Think of heritage the same way you think of money. A rich kid doesn’t have to start from scratch, there is enough (financial) heritage to make the problems of everyday survival moot. We call that an advantage. Those kids don’t have to figure it all out from scratch. Strip your kids of our moral heritage, and force them to figute it all out from scratch, well look what it’s doing to our society. Their search for answers makes them vunerable to all kinds of things. Wanna know what I’m about? The golden rule, the ten commandments. Mine is right there on the table. What about you? Who the fuck knows, huh?

RiNS
RiNS
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 10:54 pm

Too funny… Not a Liberal maybe you are but I ain’t.. And I am doing just fine..

kids are too.. but thanks for your compelling advice anyways..

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 11:00 am

No, No, No, NO.

You are conflating concepts that MUST be kept separate. It is always done in this discussion and it is ALWAYS illogical.

Here is the way I define the terms (applying labels to concepts). It is about boundaries:

Faith – This is an individuals personal belief in something greater than oneself. It can NEVER expand beyond a single individual and that individual’s thoughts.

Religion – The boundary for this one is around the Earth for the last, call it 100,000 years (call it a million, it doesn’t really matter).

God – by definition MUST be universal. EVERYTHING that is either came into being by random chance (natural process) OR was Created. Period. This happened ~14 BILLION years ago and encompasses a Cosmos vast beyond imagining (perhaps infinite).

FAITH is in each individual. Period. No one else can know if you have it (for it can always be faked), no one can give it to you and no one can take it from you.

RELIGION is where individuals organize themselves into specific beliefs, rituals, etc. Whenever groups organize power is created and inevitably used for good or evil–often for the latter because of its corrupting influence. A worthy argument would be the net benefit/detriment of RELIGION to humanity throughout the ages. But this argument is NEVER had…the atheists always ignore the benefits and the religious always ignore the evils.

NOW, with this line of reasoning established and the terms set…take HSF’s story form the other day about seeing the GOD truck. In an instant, he felt at peace and ultimately it changed his life. I’m sure neither of us doubt the Good Farmer in this story of his thoughts and feelings, correct?

So, the ONLY question is whether this came from God and it was HSF’s time for a personal revelations OR there is no God and therefore the ONLY place it could have come from is inside his own mind (subconscious).
(Purpose vs Random is the only question that applies at all three levels. This would be at the Faith (individual) level).

SO, I pose this question: whether HSF’s revelation came from God or from inside himself (and there are millions of other stories just like his)…WHAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE?

HSF – Sorry if I took license with your personal story. It was just a recent example that all here knew. Know I DO NOT make light of it in any way….on the contrary, I found it very moving.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 11:57 am

Yeah what Odin said……..

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Mrs. Frued
January 7, 2018 5:17 pm

Not fair EC. Stucky can pad his count all by himself.

As to the comment, I agree. It is the corruption of the church, and through that the corruption of the demos, that has lead to the corruption of the society. But I don’t think that is what you were trying to say. I suspect that you are suggesting that our morals come from the church, that we are taught them by the church, and that those who have moved on simply have forgotten that it was the church which was the source of our enlightenment. That is a line of reasoning that Ben Shapiro uses and I find it severely lacking. He, of course, is trying to pin the reasoning for morality on the Judaeo/Christian teaching. But that implies that there was no morality before Christ or at the very least before Moses and of course, that is not true. There was morality before there were jews, and before there was a jew named Christ, and while that morality is perhaps not your morality, that does not mean that it was not a morality.

In Fact, one could argue that your churches morality evolved from other moralities which preceded it and even lived along side it. Virtually every fable that your bible teaches you can be found in every society existing in the middle east. They all had the great flood. They all had the virgin birth. Your church does not hold a monopoly on morality, and as has been pointed out already, if you are catholic your claim to moral teachings is tenuous at best.

It is easy to lay the blame at the feet of the church, but all of the morality that you assume came from your church, came to your church a long time ago.

RiNS
RiNS
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 5:36 pm

Sort of a theological chicken and egg scenario.

I luv it!

Yours in Odin,
Other Rob

indian
indian
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 7:15 pm

… this can only happen to those who are unconscious of the temporal, historical and social and religious context in which the Lord appeared among men.
… when the wholly, utterly, exclusively … the whole of the world, the only widely accepted monotheistic religion existed on the premises of the Moses Decalum
…when slavery was complete, exclusively … a legitimate organization of the whole world apart from the space under Moses law.
…when infanticid (and I do not speak about the modern concept of a woman-human being) was a complete, exclusive … positive practice of all the peoples of the world except for one.
Time and the world when wrath, vengeance and violence were a positive standard in the full, utterly, exclusively … the whole world, in contrast to the space decorated with the Moses Decalogue.
All this was so wild and cruel, in the barbarian world, and in all the world’s “great” civilizations, and in the writings of elitist thinkers of that era before,… before the Radical News began to be spoken.
It is only with it that the world we know has begun.

starfcker
starfcker
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 7:22 pm

Rob, your comment is completely inacurate historically. Pay attention to that Ben Shapiro, he’s trying to teach you something. Your arguement is as nonsensical as the magic soil myth about America. Ideas and traditions and behaviors don’t just float around in the air. Yes, morality just floats around in the air in the middle east. pfffff….your belief is the foundation for modern liberalism, and it’s killing us.

nkit
nkit
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 10:40 pm

Argument Star, argument…drop the “e”, amigo.

starfcker
starfcker
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 10:44 pm

?

nkit
nkit
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 10:56 pm

I used to sell construction equipment, and traveled to South Florida 2 out of every eight weeks every two months.. Would loved to have sat down and had a few brews with you in those days like at a place like Bru’s in Boynton.. Don’t know how you deal with Brevard, PB, Dade or whatever county it is.. I did well there, but it seemed like mayhem to an old country boy..

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  BL
January 9, 2018 4:52 am

Holy cow! I had no idea it was that high! This is funny, one nice summer afternoon, maybe a decade ago, I walked to the Catholic church in my town, after hearing churchbells, to my complete surprise, it was a funeral service, which I had walked into just seconds after it began. I was really embarrassed, and wanted to leave, but was worried that I would disrupt the sermon if I got up and walked out, and didn’t want to appear disrespectful to the grieving attendees, so I uncomfortably sat through the entire thing, and the priest said nobody knew what caused aunt Bessie to fall, and someone looked at me, and I was worried that they thought that I had murdered her, even though I had no idea who she was, but I thought of the old detective shows, where they say that the murderer always shows up after the crime. It was one of the most awkward experiences that I have ever had. I heard a friend give a public discussion at a church last year, other than that, it has probably been over a decade since I have gone to church.

wdg
wdg
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 2:18 pm

The last thing I would want to do is treat people as dumb driven cattle to be herded anywhere…and definitely not into a church. As for the churches created by man, they are mostly corrupt…at least in the western world…as I indicated above. If you believe that God created man, then He also created a mind to think and a free spirit to act. In fact, a belief in God empowers the indiviudal over the collective and makes him accountable not to the state or earthly leaders but to a higher power. It is not surprising that the satanic Bolsheviks like all Marxists destroyed churches and murdered clergy in Russia. In fact, any state or entity that seeks to control people hates the concept of a God who is not of this world. They also hate the concept that there are univeral truths and inviolable laws such as thou cannot steal or kill. It is not hard to see why these laws of morality might upset institutions of theft, plunder and murder, better known as government, banking, major corporations and the military-industrial complex. Atheism on the other hand does not appeal to inviolable laws and morality which is why such a belief leads to tryanny and the collapse of Christian Western Civilzation.

Don Levit
Don Levit
  wdg
January 7, 2018 7:13 pm

wdg
Very well put
Those who believe one can be moral apart from G-d probably don’t believe in a Creator
Most likely they believe in the big bank and man evolved from the apes
What a criticism for the ape

Rdawg
Rdawg
  Don Levit
January 7, 2018 11:03 pm

“Those who believe one can be moral apart from G-d…”
One can; there are millions of us.
“…probably don’t believe in a Creator”
True dat.
“Most likely they believe in the big bank…”
Huh?
“…and man evolved from the apes”
No, Homo Sapiens and apes share a common ancestor though.
“What a criticism for the ape”
No argument here.

Dave
Dave
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 2:27 pm

The church isn’t a building. It’s made up of people who love God and who seek to allow His love to flow through themselves into the people they meet.
Jesus isn’t a religion. He is the living God who wants to relate to us and love us.
We change the world by loving people, one by one.

SVarghese
SVarghese
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 3:11 am

I do not know which “ism” you are talking about. The church is an assembly of called out people who individually have a relationship with God. Church is the expression of the practical application of the first commandment “Love thy God” through the second commandment “Love thy neighbour”. It is also the expression of “Love thy God” by practicing the second one.

Corporate worship is different from collectivist mob rule.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 11:33 am

Sooo, perhaps I didn’t understand you post of last week. You seem now to be complaining that god is the answer whereas last week you were bemoaning your lack of faith. I do admit to some confusion.

Clearly some here have leapt from your use of Solzhenitsyn’s comments to the contention that their god is the true god and the salvation of our country. For them, all that is required to MAGA is that we return to a belief in Christianity. This is in no way different from a belief that once all people of the earth submit to Allah, peace will be upon us. It is simply a slightly different picture of which imaginary father you wish to rule over you. It is an admission that you are weak and can not control your baser instincts. You need a daddy, and preferably one who can see you all the time because you never know when those horrible instincts will raise their ugly heads.

Well, the vast majority of humans who didn’t manage to die in bed of old age were killed by people who were very sure that god told them to kill those who would stand in the way of their greater good. The slaughter has been horrific and continuous and it most surely does cover the time period which y’all seem to want to return to. The millions who died in Russia were oppressed by a jewish ideal society. Designed by jews in europe and paid for by jews in america. It would be difficult to contend that those jews did not believe in their god. The muslims have attained a similar level of carnage all over the middle east and africa and had to be forcefully ejected from europe. And let’s face it, the christians have managed to murder huge numbers right along with their efforts to steal all of the worlds resources for themselves.

I find it hard to agree with Solzhenitsyn that all of our ills can be traced to a loss of faith in god. In fact, I would offer that the source of our ills can be more easily traced to a loss in faith in ourselves. Most of us know what it means to “do the right thing.” Some of us seem to forget that doing the right thing is important and those people are the ones who have caused the carnage. They seem to think that doing what they think is the right thing is more important than what you think is the right thing. Is it not the case that the basic concept of democracy is that the definition of what the right thing is comes from the demos. All of us, the demos, define what the right thing is in our society and there is no need for god, which is really lucky because there is literally no proof what so ever that one actually exists. Be he the god of the jews, the god of the christians, or the god of the muslims. Perhaps I have missed Solzhenitsyn’s meaning in his use of god. Maybe he saw the existence of god in the greater urges of demos. Maybe there is no greater urge in the demos. Maybe the false belief in the demos is no different from the false belief in a father who art in heaven, Howard be thy name.

RiNS
RiNS
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 1:02 pm

Yep!

nkit
nkit
  RiNS
January 7, 2018 11:27 pm

FWIW, Rob.. Sergi, has a very heavy shot from the point…just say’in….

nkit
nkit
  nkit
January 7, 2018 11:30 pm

you don’t want to block his one timers…..

RiNS
RiNS
  nkit
January 8, 2018 8:06 am

I didn’t see the Habs play the Bolts the other night but seeing as Price was first star it would be a fair guess that he came close to your prediction. I did see a bit of the game against Sens in a sports bar. Gotta admit Sergachev is pretty smooth on his feet and sneaks up into play with forwards like Paul Coffey or Bobby Orr. Not saying he is as good as Orr. But still pretty good. I wonder what religion he is….. he does have God given talent. Just not sure which one….

So I googled highlights of him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOw83ySHRvw

Hate to admit it but if he was playing for Habbies he would be the number one d-man. He is playing like a 10 year pro! So my Dad wants to go see a game. Wants to go to Habville. But the prices for tickets there are craaaaaazy! Lower bowl is north of 300 bucks a piece. Might pray to Lord Odin for deliverance. Maybe I should instead get him a passport and head to Tampa Bay! At least the weather will be nice when we watch and marvel at how shitty Bergevan’s team is this year..

Don Levit
Don Levit
  Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 7:20 pm

Hollywood Rob
It is okay to believe in yourself, to a point
Success is a team effort while failure is solo
You obviously do not believe in a Creator
Do you believe man needs a Regulator?

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Don Levit
January 8, 2018 1:56 am

In the sense of government, no. I believe that each of us regulates the other as we learn from each other what it is that works and what it is that does not work. Do you think that god is a regulator? If so, in what sense would you suggest that he regulates mankind. Ooooops, I mean personkind of course.

DRUD
DRUD
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 11:06 am

“All of us, the demos, define what the right thing is in our society and there is no need for god, which is really lucky because there is literally no proof what so ever that one actually exists.”

But you can offer proof that we collectively define the right thing? How is this accomplished? Through what biochemical process? What drives it to happen? Don’t worry, you won’t scare me off with detailed physics or chemistry?

I’m being deliberately obtuse, but you were being obtuse (in you first paragraph) and perhaps not deliberately. Stucky STRUGGLES with his faith. So do I. I think everyone does, even (and perhaps especially) those who claim to have none. These questions are simply beyond us. Does that mean we should ignore them or simply claim to know?

I think these questions–and STRUGGLE in general–is a huge part of life.

i forget
i forget
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 3:05 pm

“Collectively define” disproves itself, comrade, over & over again.

KeyserSusie
KeyserSusie
January 7, 2018 11:37 am

Nice segue from last Sunday’s Stucky Sermon

So Solzhenitsyn’s observation begs for my plan for an inchoate resurrection of that which brings relief. This is how I do it.

Cardinal Points
Work – do something of value for others
Worship – study and practice the temporal and sacred – eschew non tolerance of other faiths and look for convergence of sacrosanct principles.
(An example: In 2014, major Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox Christian leaders, as well as Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist leaders, met to sign a shared commitment against modern-day slavery; the declaration they signed calls for the elimination of slavery and human trafficking by the year 2020.)

Play – re-creation of the joyful things you value
Family – where love is taught, practiced, manifested and passed from
family of origin to family of generation and makes community.

Place the four cardinal teeth that chew the fat of life at the ordinal points of a clock. 12, 3 ,6 and 9. I call it time4teeth. Distribute your life in the quadrants of time. Be balanced. May you find gOd, or at least that which passes as Good.

Maggie
Maggie
  KeyserSusie
January 7, 2018 1:02 pm

KS… I don’t know if your jaw unhinges like a snake’s does, but I’m really not fucking sure how the four cardinal teeth are positioned exactly and would like a photo.

[imgcomment image[/img]

KeyserSusie
KeyserSusie
  Maggie
January 7, 2018 6:15 pm

Mine doesn’t but it was always fun to treat clients with dislocated mandibles – mouths gaping open and stuck. i no longer have my service mark/logo. So imagine.

Time4Teeth

New, better or different not
But steady ticking like a clock
Spending time at the ordinal points
Seeking solace from one who anoints

Solar powered and not wound up
Infinite minutes fill your cup
At three, six, nine and twelve
Sacred times in which to delve

Four teeth at East, West, North and South
Eat the world in Krishna’s mouth
Call them work, worship, play and kin
Four conditions chew the life we’re in

Arms revolve around and spin
Hands of time forever lend
A chance to begin again
Never late to make amends

Incisors slice the the skin of the apple
Canines grasp when we grapple
Bicuspid duality chews from the plate
Molars grind and ruminate

Work or making gifts to all the others
Most important the duties of mothers
Men protect, bear burdens and feed families
And oft we switch ordained destinies

Worship some thing sacred bigger than you
Perhaps some thing beyond the skyward view
Göd spelled with two o’s is Good
Infallible and ancient denoting ‘should’

Play daily and often celebrate
Best with others maybe your mate
Enjoin bliss and strive to re~create
Pursue joy and happy fate

Kin, da kine, family and tribe
The dead and living of all your pride
Extend and include kindness and love
The most important of what we’re made of

bc

BB
BB
January 7, 2018 12:54 pm

It’s to late .Read in the Bible where God in getting ready to judge a nation and you will clearly see the tell tell signs in America. Or just go to some of the pagan authors of yesterday. Aristotle 350 b.c.
Another cause of revolution is differences of races which do not at once acquire a common spirit ,for a state is not the growth of a day ,any more then it grows out of a multitude brought together by accident.Hence the reception of STRANGERS in colonies , either at the time of their foundation or afterwards,has generally produced revolution.
Now any you want to tell me the Destroying of white Americans by the Jews in 1965 was not planned.If so you are a fool.

MarshRabbit
MarshRabbit
January 7, 2018 12:58 pm

“human salvation can be found neither in the profusion of material goods nor in merely making money.”

I agree, but that belief can be exploited by charlatans.

Example: “poverty level wages, can’t afford a house? Well sure your life sucks now, but when you die it’s gonna be really great. Trust me!”

JLA
JLA
January 7, 2018 1:01 pm

“Take all the wisdom, justice, jurisprudence, artifice, even the highest virtues the world affords, and what are they? They minister only to that god, carnal appetite. They can go no farther than the needs of this life, their whole purpose being to satisfy physical cravings. When the physical appetites of the worldly pass, they pass likewise, and the gifts and virtues we have mentioned can no longer serve them. All perish and go to destruction together–righteousness, virtues, laws and physical appetites, which they have served as their god.”

“For they are wholly ignorant of the true and eternal God; they know not how to serve Him and receive eternal life. So then in its essential features such a life is merely idolatrous, having no greater object than the preservation of this perishable body and its enjoyment of peace and honor.”

JL’s comment: In a few words, Martin Luther exposed the phoniness of secular humanism pretending to be a spiritual path for what it is: ego trip to a dead end.

MarshRabbit
MarshRabbit
January 7, 2018 1:06 pm

“And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl” (Revelation 21:21)

I’m curious, it being an element of my nature, are the Gates of Heaven there to keep people in, or out?

BB
BB
January 7, 2018 1:47 pm

Keep Liberal Progressive Ideologies like you out ! Now go worship your god. Meathead!

A. Paul
A. Paul
January 7, 2018 2:30 pm

Is this the same author who last week because of his doubt demanded proofs that God exists? And today he is saying this country needs God? What is wrong with him? Is he bipolar? A head case? I think he needs help deciding who he is. He shouldn’t be posting articles until he gets better.

karalan
karalan
  Stucky
January 8, 2018 9:16 am

Or a particularly punishing fart.

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 4:02 am

That was profound Stucky !

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 6:12 am

I would like her better if she would admit basic mistakes of fact with a simple “my bad”. Instead, she foams at the mouth, calls me a liar, and continues to post links to her articles based on erroneous facts. I mean, pension payments take up 2/3 of GDP? She needs to leave data alone.

She is just like the pigeon playing chess, she shits all over the board, knocks down the pieces, and claims she won.

But, yes, it is better when she leaves the links off.

But here is what will happen now Stuck. She will likely spam the site with links, just to show you who is boss. She has done it before when another said we appreciate she had stopped spamming. She came back with a good old fuck you, here is a bunch more spam.

This bitch is insane. It will take more than a few no link posts to convince me otherwise.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 6:47 am

Stuck – the liar bit was of no consequence. The refusal to acknowledge she was factually wrong is a bad sign. I pointed out she clearly confused millions for billions, and liability for expenditure. It was not an opinion, but fact. She wrote entire articles she linked to based on data that was absolutely in error. And stuck by those errors. Unbelievable.

Much of what I say is opinion. But certain things I say are fact. It of course irritates me when people want to argue against verifiable facts. She is a buffoon. If caught out on false data, the thing to do is 1) admit it, or 2) quietly correct it, or 3) quietly ignore the error. To double down on stupid is not the hallmark of a stable mind. Which is what oft concerms me about the leader of the free world. I do not mind hyperbole, exaggeration,spin, even outright lying on occasion. But to repeat as facts things which are verifiably inaccurate is not the way to go. In my opinion.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
January 7, 2018 2:43 pm

Not fair Paul. Stucky writes great articles and we have a great time slinging shit about his writing.

c1ue
c1ue
January 7, 2018 3:16 pm

Idiotic.
Indian Reservations.
Interned Japanese.
There are plenty of American examples of gulags with God-fearing guards.
Solzhenitsyn is a finger puppet.

Rdawg
Rdawg
  c1ue
January 7, 2018 11:05 pm

Lotsa down-thumbs.

Zero counter-arguments.

Interesting.

DRUD
DRUD
  c1ue
January 8, 2018 11:14 am

Because people have done bad things in God’s name you can state with certainty both that there is no God and the Solzhenitsyn is a finger puppet (I take that to mean idiot)?

Perhaps you could enlighten us with you experiences is the worst suffering humans can go through and how your lack of faith carried you through?

I intend to hold my breath so please hurry.

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  c1ue
January 9, 2018 4:05 am

Those are excellent points.

mangledman
mangledman
January 7, 2018 3:32 pm

I have found in most people the inherent desire for the truth. Conscience, so to speak. We go through life trying to live up to our own conscience. Failing miserably, most of the time, as our understanding of truth matures. I have found in the years of life the hardest person to get along with is myself. The truth has been beating the devil out of me forever! Hard knocks, slow learner, yes I know. Slave to my own desires? Not so much anymore. We all seem to be searching for truth, wisdom and understanding, but everything is held up by truth. What exists without it? Where would law,justice, judgement, morality, etc. etc. exist. Where could molecular structure exist without a true path. A perfect (true) circle.
People that stop trying to follow GOD are easily swayed from what they believe to be true. When lies are winning corruption rules. Where are we today? We have people today that worship evil planning to destroy everybody that won’t go along. They want to wipe GOD, and truth from the face of the earth, Jews and Christians especially!
I am the way, the truth, and the life. If you want the truth, seek! If you choose to think we are just feral dogs, then please tell my why I got stuck with a conscience. (Which I defiled profusely).
Very good Stucky!!

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
January 7, 2018 4:05 pm

Loved this article Stucky and have never heard of Solzhnitsyn until now and must agree with his conclusion. Many leave religion as a result of the hypocrisy in holy wars. Man is in charge of religion, and taints it, like everything else. When people realize that religion is not God, and stop confusing man’s failed attempts at spreading the word of God, while simultaneously murdering people whose religious beliefs are different than theirs, or for the pedophilia rings, or for the bedazzled and pimped up jeweled and limo chauffeured evangelical preachers, whose members are often in extreme poverty, at that point they can begin their journey with God.

One of the things that is sure to make my blood boil, is the outrageously self entitled and self exalting notion in determinism that everything is exactly as God intended it, therefore, removing any personal responsibility for relieving the suffering of others. How antithetical to humility is the belief that everything is exactly as God intended it, while living in absolute luxury while so many are suffering unfathomable misery?

karalan
karalan
  Andrea Iravani
January 8, 2018 9:14 am

Fuck me, this incoherent garbage got 6 upvotes?
“How antithetical to humility is the belief that everything is exactly as God intended it, while living in absolute luxury while so many are suffering unfathomable misery?”
If things are not as God intended, then what fucking good is he?

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  karalan
January 9, 2018 1:30 am

@ Karalan- Well, actually most Christians- Catholics, Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox, in addition to Jews and Muslims believe that God gave man free will. If you have children who have ever struggled in their lives, is that what you had intended when you decided to have children?

Free will is contradictory to determinsm.

I must ask you, if God would deliberately bring people into this world that he had intended to send to hell, prior to their births, and if God intended for people to be mercilessly barbecued alive on a rotisserie, is that a God that you would worship? If so, you will be surprised when you discover that it is Satan in disguise that you have been worshipping.

The Protestant work ethic is a term that resulted from the belief in the Protestant movement of determism and the Calvinist doctrine predestination and the electorate, ( those who would be granted eternal life in heaven) and the hell-bound which were also predetermined prior to birth, which offered a single way out – through hard work, benefiting the King of England :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

Here are what my personal guiding religious principals are

John 5:19

We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Philippians 4:13
For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful individuals can change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” – Margaret Mead

Peace,

Andrea Iravani

Econman
Econman
January 7, 2018 7:46 pm

Yuri Bezmenov, an old KGB spy, also explains why Social Justice Warriors, feminists, and the Left are useful idiots destabilizing and destroying the USA.

They are GODless moral relativists and cultural Marxists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLqHv0xgOlc

i forget
i forget
January 7, 2018 8:16 pm

Just that particular, Russian, “revolution” – or all of ‘em?

Gulaglessness is the 1st step toward the gulag. Human solvent•ion demands it, over & over again. What the soylent green solvent doesn’t demand, over & over again, was this not demented rx:

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

Remember this godlessness goofball?

Didius Julianus
Didius Julianus
January 7, 2018 8:45 pm

rdawg – Oddly enough, I used to believe as you did that really believing in God imprisoned the mind until I gradually came to understand what the “real” Christianity (not the organized church versions) and God were all about which is what wdg gets at, copied below).My still growing respect and belief comes, perhaps oddly to you, from reading sites like this over the years.

wdg – well said – ” In fact, a belief in God empowers the individual over the collective and makes him accountable not to the state or earthly leaders but to a higher power. It is not surprising that the satanic Bolsheviks like all Marxists destroyed churches and murdered clergy in Russia. In fact, any state or entity that seeks to control people hates the concept of a God who is not of this world. They also hate the concept that there are universal truths and inviolable laws such as thou cannot steal or kill. It is not hard to see why these laws of morality might upset institutions of theft, plunder and murder, better known as government, banking, major corporations and the military-industrial complex. Atheism on the other hand does not appeal to inviolable laws and morality which is why such a belief leads to tyranny and the collapse of Christian Western Civilization.”

Exactly!

Hollywood Rob – Sorry, those who caused the Bolshevik revolution were not believers in God simply by being Jewish, being Jewish does not make them automatic believers in God. I remember reading quite a bit about them being ardent atheists. Yes, the countlessly repeated mantra that people have sincerely killed and done bad things in the name of their God is true but does not take away from the message the Christ taught but rather further illustrates how easy it is for us to get things wrong. Also differ somewhat that most of us, in the younger generations, absolutely “know what it means to “do the right thing.” ” as the right thing has been distorted and turned on its head over the years as well documented on this site.

mangledman – Agree, my ultimate conclusion is similar to yours. “Where are we today? We have people today that worship evil planning to destroy everybody that won’t go along. They want to wipe GOD, and truth from the face of the earth, Jews and Christians especially!
I am the way, the truth, and the life. If you want the truth, seek! If you choose to think we are just feral dogs, then please tell me why I got stuck with a conscience. (Which I defiled profusely).”

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
January 7, 2018 8:54 pm

How does nihilism benefit us?

What advantage is there in believing it’s all pointless? That there is no purpose, that right and wrong is simply a personal preference, especially knowing what some humans are capable of doing?

We seem to always find some way of perverting what are natural instincts and drives and turning them into self destructive impulses. Maybe it’s our way of keeping the species in check when the Natural world can’t keep up with the whole pandemic/volcano/ice age end of the deal.

nkit
nkit
  hardscrabble farmer
January 7, 2018 10:28 pm

You left out the flat Earth part..

starfcker
starfcker
  hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 12:54 am

“How does nihilism benefit us?
What advantage is there in believing it’s all pointless? That there is no purpose, that right and wrong is simply a personal preference, especially knowing what some humans are capable of doing?” I can’t add anything to this. Nice work

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 2:28 am

There is as rich a history in nihilism as there is in any religion but I do not care to argue that nihilism should benefit us. Just because our existence is meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe does not mean that it is meaningless to each of us. My existence has meaning to me and your existence has meaning to you.

Does a god add meaning in a universal sense? Does your god? What if I am wrong and there is a god. Is it your god or Allah, or perhaps it is Odin. Then both of us would be wrong. I would be wrong because I thought that there was no god but there was one and his name is Odin. Or you would be wrong because you believed in the Christian god and it turned out that the real god was Odin. Boy would we both find a pissed off Odin. Of course, we would be in good company.

I just don’t see why our existence needs to have meaning for us to try to have a moral lifestyle. We still need to get through each day without instigating someone to violence directed at ourselves. We want other people to like us and to help us when we need help. So it seems to me that a moral code, any moral code, your Christian one or Mohammed’s Islamic one, or mine based on no real belief in god is going to be pretty much the same thing.

I agree that it is a chicken / egg thing but let’s face it. There were eggs on this earth long before there were even birds, let alone chickens just like there was morality on this earth long before there were organized religions of any sort. Nihilism does not exclude morality.

starfcker
starfcker
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 2:49 am

“So it seems to me that a moral code, any moral code, your Christian one or Mohammed’s Islamic one, or mine based on no real belief in god is going to be pretty much the same thing.” And that right there folks, is the bedrock core belief of liberalism. Moral relativity. There is no right or wrong. All belief systems are of equal value. The sad part of this, really, is that so many people come on this forum and bitch and moan about the decay of our civil society. And yet they gleefully and cluelessly attack the pillars that held that society aloft. And they lack all self reflection as to what they are doing. Western civilization did not grow in a vacuum. Is the culmination of a couple millennium of people trying to act in enlightened ways. And Christianity is the biggest single part of that. There’s never been anything like it on Earth. Destroy it at your own peril. You wouldn’t have liked what came next.

RiNS
RiNS
  starfcker
January 8, 2018 7:02 am

Hey Star you left out Odin… why’s that?

starfcker
starfcker
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 7:19 am

Well first I’d have to Google and figure out who Odin is. Was he in Wu Tang Clan? I’ll get back to you

RiNS
RiNS
  starfcker
January 8, 2018 7:53 am

Well I will help you. The Norse Myths are the bedrock of Western European Civilization that give you such big woodies!

i forget
i forget
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 2:53 pm

Myths are bedrock. Love it. Even bedrock’s mostly empty space\s, eh?

RiNS
RiNS
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 3:10 pm

Yeah never thought of it that way. Too funny..

Maggie
Maggie
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 7:49 am

Am racing to 100.

SVarghese
SVarghese
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 3:31 am

“We still need to get through each day without instigating someone to violence directed at ourselves. ”

Who said so? The Bolsheviks benefitted by using violence against all and sundry; in fact all who did not subscribe to their violent methods of class warfare. Violence was beneficial to the Nazis. Till the war started most Germans would or a significant minority would have supported it.

In India the law enforcement, the cow vigilantes and so on benefit from violence and it gives them meaning!

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 7:36 am

I couldn’t disagree more. Any system that is based on each individual deciding for himself what is and is not moral is automatically prone to failure.

When my kids get angry or worried over something the first thing we do is talk out their emotional reaction to the situation. What is the underlying problem? What steps have they taken to deal with it, and what are the likely outcomes? Eventually we get around to this one- what benefit is there to worrying about this problem rather than solving it?

By having them submit to their rational being as opposed to their emotions, the drama is taken out of the matter, they come up with a solution, or at least a plan to deal with it, and stability replaces the unsettled vagaries of a purely visceral response. This is, in a sense, a means of understanding the morality of our Creator, a code for us written in our very fiber- a conscience-where we find answers to all of our questions, a centering and a calm that can be useful even in times of crisis, loss or heartbreak.

Morality among human beings is too varied, to open to interpretation, to free and loose for people to live in any kind of harmony. It leaves people to exist in a vacuum absent any standard save that created by each man and I know far too much about men to think that such a system has any kind of value. To a venal man opportunity is their god. To a cruel man, another’s pain. To the licentious, carnality and lust. Every interaction is one of pure happenstance, that one’s particular morality is in accord with the next and dependence on such statistical improbabilities is anathema to a well ordered society.

Your statement is akin to saying that math is up to the individual, that all answers are equal as long as it fits the belief of each person, but that’s nonsense. We agree that a solid yellow line painted down the middle of the road means one thing to all people, we don’t leave it open to interpretation. In this way all of our lives are made manifestly better because it is a universally accepted belief that keeps us safe.

And nihilism, like an emotional reaction to a logical problem has no place, affords no advantage, solves no dilemma, gives no advantage and yields no benefit. If you still believe that it is worth believing in as opposed to the advantages offered by believing in a Creator, than it serves as further proof that your belief system is flawed.

RiNS
RiNS
  hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 8:12 am

Exactly

And that is why I put my faith in Lord Odin…

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 10:49 am

Wow HSF. Not only did you completely miss the point, but you managed to directly make my point just before you denied our own individual capacity for good. Truly breathtaking.

Your insight into how you deal with anger in your children is exactly what I was trying to promote. You don’t take your kids down to the priest. You don’t consult a bible to see which godly inspired punishment to inflict. You sit quietly with them and discuss the issue until they see the reason. That is all that I am trying to suggest. That you use reason to teach them is exactly how any society manages to function without tearing itself apart. If, however, you had taken them to a sharia court they could have had their hand cut off. Or you could have taken them to a priest and they could kneel on corn and recite 100 hail marys. But neither of those solutions (in my opinion) would have been as good as your approach, which would have been my approach as well. So you see, even you, with your strong belief in a Christian god, behave in a moral manner.

Almost all humans, and most great apes, dogs, birds and many other pack based animals realize that there are things that they are perfectly capable of doing and that will benefit them greatly, but that will get them shunned by the pack. They make the decision that the protection of the group is worth more than the benefit from the immoral action so they “learn” not to do the immoral actions. And most animals learn that wisdom without the aid of a belief in a god of any type.

So you see, your contention that nihilism implies an emotional reaction to a logical problem is, in fact, false. Nihilism does not require an emotional reaction to anything. Your life, you child’s life, my life, has meaning because we each give it meaning. You attach more meaning to your child’s life than I would…he is your child. But I attach meaning to a child’s life because I recognize that the child is a part of a great whole to which I belong. You belong to that greater whole as well. My belief system is in no way different from yours. My attribution of my belief system is different from yours but the end result of our moralities is pretty much the same. I am just guessing but I suspect that neither of us would willingly go to Vietnam to shoot gooks nor would we go to Iraq to shoot ragheads. And yet there are hundreds of thousands of god fearing christian warriors who have gone to Iraq to kill ragheads. Their belief in their god, your god, is what kept them going every day. Their belief in god allowed them to slaughter millions. Whose belief system is flawed?

i forget
i forget
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 3:03 pm

That’s ok. I’ve long since shunned the pack. Found out, in spades, packs got no truck with morality. “Something greater” is packs is morality – just ask packman reps, they’ll tell you.

Being a countable part amongst other countable parts in ‘the whole’ doesn’t mean I belong to, am owned by, ‘the whole.’

Pass the Krispy Kreme donut holes that I traded for, but keep the Holy wholism. Why buy the opportunity cost sunk franchise, & the whole hole it sits upon (esp given the fact not even bits of the hole are truly never yours to own), when I can get the pastry for next to nothing & better deploy the unsunk capital eslewhere?

DRUD
DRUD
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 11:20 am

” Is it your god or Allah, or perhaps it is Odin.”

These concepts are about RELIGION not GOD. Boundaries/logical domains people.

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 12:27 pm

or the Spaghetti Monster. Don’t furget one can get touched by the noodly appendages..

I saw it on a truck

[imgcomment image[/img]

Ramen

karalan
karalan
  hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 8:39 am

Right on hardscrabble, there is no benefit to nihilism.
God is a figment of our imaginations (in the beginning, man created God in his own image), but serves as the glue that binds a community. That’s what’s missing in the west these days. We lack a common vision and purpose.
Odin would do.

i forget
i forget
  karalan
January 8, 2018 2:54 pm

I’ve no desire to be taken to the glue factory. Or commons-gobbled. Or borg assimilated. Or matrix matryoshka’d.

i forget
i forget
  hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 2:50 pm

Dan Blocker. “Lady in Cement.” “Stay loose, pal.” On those taut strings.

Nihilism is not a still string. It’s a thrum. A vibrating string. Alive. Or at least kinetic. Vibration’s good.

Wiggle room do cause some to wig out, tho. So they impose a still string definition, label. The emphatic, exclamatory “stupid” is the carted passenger, oftentimes, in the ‘keep it simple’ rule of thumb. Thumbs vary, vibrate, too.

What don’t vibrate (even as it does, ha) is *my* thumb. *Your* thumb, either. And that’s the whole of morality. A priori. Inalienable. Unalienable. Keep yer thumbs outta’ my pie\s. I ain’t gonna’ put mine in yours.

Deities got nada to do. But deities do still thumbs like nuthin’ else.

Nee-uh-lis-um. Neilarmstrongism. Abyss-dumping all the fake-false-ersatz-knock•off products for sale in the marketplace of ideologue‘ ry is a good thing. Or would be, if it were possible. Which it’s not.

Too much fear. So couch cushions remain at peril. (All those grasping sphincter muscles.) Nature has “decided” fear’s the lesser evil, apparently. Fear keeps things alive. After subtracting it’s hefty commission, of course. Indentured servitude. Pock marked debentures.

On a young girl’s arm I spied the last 2 sentences (below) tattooed. I told her that last sentence ain’t necessarily so at all.

Sentenced to not just life, but all eternity, the Kubler Ross stages *might* end up at resigned acceptance.

Brooks was institutionalized, eventually, after long confinement in Shawshank Prison. Inside was where he was happy. He’d been shrunk to fit. Adaptation to reduced circumstances via reduction of self. The Shawshank boulder & slope was “something greater.” It became his god. And when he was deprived of it, he suicided.

That other guy said, “get busy livin’, or get busy dyin’.”

Actual prisons internalized mental prisons.

Persons like what they like, but rubber stamps are wholly indifferent. Persons are not rubber stamps.

Anytime generalizations are invoked for truisms it’s to make the rubberstamp ‘argument’ seem like “something greater.” A stilled string is not something greater. It’s less than. No music. Makes an ok noose, garrote, tho.

This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself, forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man’s heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.” ― Albert Camus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdWlrKOMFB8

Maggie
Maggie
  i forget
January 8, 2018 3:17 pm

I forget… what two sentences tattooed where?

i forget
i forget
  Maggie
January 8, 2018 3:28 pm

The girl had “The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man’s heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.” tattooed on her inner arm.

(Maybe she looked about, at the economic prospects overall, & latched onto a bit of jump…substitute happy burger-flipping for boulder-rolling. Maybe she is congenitally optimistic. Maybe she just took a philosophy course at school.)

I did see ol’ Sis’s happiness when he got the better of those ol’ gods. Impudence can be fun & a virtue.

RiNS
RiNS
  i forget
January 8, 2018 3:31 pm

Frank is a great actor too! Not only does he do it “My Way” but he gets the girl with the big tits too!

Sinatra IS GOD!

Might watch it later after Monday Night Curling.. We are 8 -1-1 and I credit it all to my rock solid faith in Odin…

The Lady In Cement. A pretty schmaltzy way to end a day… or maybe I will hit jootube. Loads of stuff to watch there..

Andrea Iravani
Andrea Iravani
  Stucky
January 7, 2018 11:17 pm

Oh, you’re in the hospital?! So sorry!

Maggie
Maggie
  Stucky
January 8, 2018 7:34 am

I should have known it had to be Stucky with that teeny tiny little pecker worn down to a nub from all the rubbing and squeezing.

HOLY CRAP I’M TEASING…

I’m almost obsessed with Stucky’s capacity for, um, self-adulation.

Stucky,

I was looking for something about Michelangelo’s David and learned that the block of marble which became the famous David was one of the last in a set of 12 figures commissioned by the city council of Florence more than fifty years earlier, to be completed by that other Ninja Turtle Donatello. Interesting tidbit of information, isn’t it? You might say it is titillating.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/michelangelos-david-and-gift-of-limitations/

Now, my lumberjack looking friend from lebensraum and beyond, I have one question and it has nothing to do with luck.

Would you have liked Donatello as a beer-drinking customer? Let’s say you were a landowner/businessman in 15th century Florence, in fact, you were the owner/barkeep at the old Ham, Hocks and Hearth, with Mrs F perhaps washing dishes as scullery maid to help out with all the extra taxes imposed to pay that Duccio/Donatello character to carve a bunch of freaking statues.

That’s the question. If you were a person of means as the owner of the famed HAM, HOCKS AND HEARTH where all the great artists and councilmen drank together and discussed the plans to connect the soul of mankind with God by commissioning beautiful paintings and sculptures for all of mankind to see, would you continue to profit from that pack of liberal dumbfucks who basically “led” their culture out of the middle ages into the renaissance. Or would you tell them to man up, go home and do something useful with their wives. “Good God you bunch of fairies, stop it with your damn mayflower poetry shit, learn how to fight for what you believe in and go get the damn Moors out of Spain right now before it is too late and we can never get rid of them.” What a difference you could have made in the world as we know it, Stuckenmeister, Giant Barkeep at the HAM, HOCKS AND HEARTH, just outside Florence, Italy circa 1500 AD! You could have taught those great minds who would put the images on the Sistine Chapel with Divine guidance and chipped away at marble blocks until they became living statues infused with strength of character, persona and intent as David’s gaze toward Goliath informs us. So, the Block of Marble the city of Florence finally paid Michelangelo to finish up, since Duccio/Donatello only got the feet and ankles done, basically, already had David’s feet placed, limiting the artist in what he might
see in the block.

On the other hand (if you will take it out of your pants?)… if the great work of art is already contained within the block of marble to be seen by the sculptor, does it matter if Donatello or Michelangelo looked first at the virgin stone? I wonder if Donatello made sketches and if so, did Michelangelo use them?

If you think about the Moor invasion of Spain around the same era and then realize how much of the public monies were being poured into funding art and architecture in Europe, it does make me wonder how the hell the divine right of kings lasted as long as it did when they were so obviously idiots.
How much more we needed a true “David” to face the philistines and not just a nice statue of him. But, then again, I’m just a hillbilly rabbit farmer whose lack of couth is obvious.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Maggie
January 8, 2018 10:56 am

I bow to the greater wisdom of the Maggie. 1000 thumbs up.

Maggie
Maggie
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 12:43 pm

Why thank you, kind Sir. If only there were more true gentlemen like you around here instead of lowly curs.

[imgcomment image[/img]

HoRob, this is a photo of my wedding, simple and splendid at a little country church my grandfather built for for grandmother on three acres of donated ground at the edge of what was most often a soybean field when I was a kid. And, still is, by the way, though some renovations have been made that render the old church of my childhood a distant memory. Those memories are barely stirred at the sight of the building that once housed every trace of the Holy Ghost I ever thought I saw in person until I was an adult and realized you really can see traces of God anywhere you want to. Or think you ought to.

This particular photo stirs a couple people to suggest I look a bit like the princess of Wales…I don’t think I see it in this one, but I do know what they mean. As far as looking like Diana? Well, a few of the British ladies who quit smoking with me online (no kidding… a big internet forum devoted to quitting smoking by chitchatting with other “quitters” around the world) and I shared wedding photos and they assured me I had the look of the beloved Princess. . Whatever. Bunch of crazy nicotine starved wenches swapping stories in the middle of the night to NOT SMOKE.

It is funny, but my husband seems to think of you folks at TBP in the same vein as that clusterfuck of ladies I chatted with in a forum on the world wide web more than ten years ago in order to “beat the Demon Nick O’teen”. So, he got used to me at the computer, where I would chat and storytell with in the wee hours of the night instead of go outside and smoke cigarettes. Like a lot of smokers in the 90s, we were shamed outside when my son was born. So, that gave him lots of time learning to be independent inside as a toddler and pre-teen (he was 12ish when we quit smoking, I suppose) while Nick and I were out in the yard or garage so we could SMOKE.

Haha… when he realized at 10ish (he really was a bit slow on the social cues) that we only were outside so much to be smoking, he started to nag and that, along with other warning signs from Nick’s parents and others we knew who were consumed by cancer and heart disease, led us to our grand challenge to each other: I can quit smoking longer than you can. So far, I am winning, having quit at midnight December 31, 2006 while Nick snuck a couple early morning smokes in January 1, 2007, meaning that I am at least 6 full hours ahead of him. But, except for a couple of the women from the forum I stay in touch with on a personal level due to circumstances (as I hope to do soon with Mary Christine) and location in “real” time, the smober team of Janunixxers fighting the Demon Weed like the Knights Who Go Nix (pun on ‘nee) when the craving starts… well, that team is long gone for Maggie McGhee or whatever snazzy name Martha came up with to entertain herself rather than give in to the urge to smoke. Good Lord that was a long time ago and Annabanana and Li and a couple others are still around in my cyberworld. Amazing.

Good Grief, I just realized how long I’ve had a, um, relationship with come of you cyber monkeys, albeit in lurking, longing and perhaps, lusting, mode? Haha… Titillating is such a fun word. Along with ineluctable, which I saw on here earlier today… and then lost it. If you posted a comment today and used the word “ineluctable” please let me know where I saw it and what context it was used. I got so enamored with the possibilities in the word, I forgot where I saw it. Really.

Two, if by sea. Three if from within, thee.
Two, if by sea. Three if from within, thee.
January 7, 2018 11:37 pm

The simplest path to Godliness is to start counting your blessings.

Maggie
Maggie

Am I close to a hundred yet?

Boat Guy
Boat Guy
January 8, 2018 6:49 am

Perhaps a good start would be to defend infancy and innocence with all your heart and soul . As for our fellow adult man or woman in dire need , perhaps the applied principal derived from intellect would suffice . Finding them worthy of assistance give as liberally as we can without injury to yourself or family .
How much is enough to possess and how much should one give ? Those of good faith and conciense struggle with that question daily .
Pink Floyd On The Turning Away : It’s not enough to just stand and stare .
Most people commenting on TBP have some basic desire to do good and speak out , I hope our shared comments even our disagreements help all of us to some degree !

Maggie
Maggie
January 8, 2018 7:50 am

ONE HUNDRED THE END

RiNS
RiNS
  Maggie
January 8, 2018 7:54 am

Dammit Maggie that wuz supposed to be mine!

Maggie
Maggie
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 1:00 pm

On what trip to the moon?

Zarathustra
Zarathustra
January 8, 2018 9:01 am

Stuck, your article was picked up by Lew Rockwell. Gratz! (incorrectly attributed to teh Quinnster)

RiNS
RiNS
  Zarathustra
January 8, 2018 9:21 am

Great!

Now moar can be filled with the Spirit of Odin and his ongoing fight against the evils of nihilism.

Breaking News

Everyone got it wrong! Evidence points to Martian Worm God…

The fight against nihilism is actually inter-planetary..

And its all thanks to the good people at NASA!

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
January 8, 2018 10:01 am

Stucky, I just wanted to say that you have turned into a very solid writer. Not a lot of people can stimulate this kind of discussion with such machine-like regularity and on such a broad range of topics. Kind of a Studs Terkel minus the left wing prosyletizing.

You’re pretty deep for a Jersey Boy.

Randy
Randy
January 8, 2018 12:04 pm

This was also linked from Lew Rockwell to Steve Quales website. Ripples in the pond.

Muck About
Muck About
January 8, 2018 12:30 pm

Sice everyone on TBP knows already that I’m an atheist, let me assure you that there is no connection between atheism and nihilism.

The problem is that man NEEDS something outside himself to believe in, considering how short and mostly miserable his life span is. That’s why religion, music, dancing and other things are universal human traits – regardless of when or where those humans are.

Religion and God (when preached by non-witch doctors) provides the continuum of an eternal set of rules, guides and goals for people to follow that was started and established before they got here and will be here after they’re gone.

Human beings are really sorry creatures as far as following rules are concerned. We tend to wander all over the place and whenever the rules conflict with desires, desires usually win out.

We come and go. G-O-D stays.

muck

DRUD
DRUD
  Muck About
January 8, 2018 12:50 pm

“man NEEDS something outside himself to believe in, considering how short and mostly miserable his life span is.”

I could not agree more. The standard argument is whether this need came from being created by God or whether by natural selection. MY argument, is what difference does it make?

We are and shall remain fundamentally, epistemologically ignorant. I can make sound arguments all day long for BOTH cases–to what end.

However, the peace and joy I find when I am most in tune with God (whether external or internal, real or imagined) is a real measurable thing. I argue that faith No particular religion) is the logical path through this existence about which we are UTTERLY ignorant.

i forget
i forget
  Muck About
January 8, 2018 3:08 pm

Men. Not “man.” You may need to believe that men are all homogenized into “man” but it just ain’t so. Individuals do come\go. The g-o-d\s baton gets passed…it comes\goes, too…with the ones running in those games. The holympics, you could call it.

RiNS
RiNS
January 8, 2018 12:57 pm

Hitchens was right…Civility is over rated

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 1:19 pm

In every single fucking atrocity he mentions it was the STATE at its heart. Religious or not, it is always the STATE.

The state uses religion as a tool to commit its atrocities. Religion is to the state as the gun is to the murderer.

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 2:27 pm

So now it is the guns don’t kill people argument….

It appears that you didn’t absorb what Hitchens said. And nice try but no cigar. You are stating something in a backhanded way hoping that I will fall into yer trap. Well I won’t…

So I realize you didn’t say this but it is implied. All the blathering in this thread about needin’ religion to have some sort of moral compass. Yet many an atrocity has been committed by those professing some sort of higher faith. Do I need to even list them! Your your implied contention is religion never uses the State as a tool for oppression. EVER! Yeah right…. okay here’s one..

Try telling that to Natives who had to endure residential schools here in Canada.

Here’s a suggestion. Try pasta. It is delicious and nobody gets hurt…

[imgcomment image?zz=1[/img]

Ramen

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 3:48 pm

I do not make implied contentions, sir and I fully absorbed and digested what he said and what he left out.

This is a subtly different argument that what was made before, but a direct rebuttal to Hitchens. And, of course, as usual he leaves the burden of proof solely in the un-proovable negative. His enlightened, rational society, has never existed.

I am not speaking out in defense of religions. I see them for what they are and what they can be. I never once said religion is required for a moral compass. I do think that we have one inherently and that is a huge mystery and suggestive (obviously NOT proof) of God.

Sure, religion uses the state for oppression. The two together ALWAYS produce a fucking nightmare. Everything I EVER say in a purely secular post is very clear: liberty, individual responsibility and free markets are the only thing that has ever made a great society. Worshipping reason can and never will.

You can blow the late great Chris Hitchens all day long, but do not put words (or anything else) in my mouth. 🙂

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 9:14 pm

Exactly Whatta compelling argument and how Christain of you. Fucken’ awesome you reached for the personal attack first so I won….

[imgcomment image[/img]

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 9, 2018 10:51 am

I did first? You seemed to miss the point where you insulted my intelligence saying I missed a very clear and obvious point made by a man who’s arguments I struggled over for many months if not years.

And any references to fellatio is just TPB-speak for Hello. You know that.

I also never once said I was Christian.

I don’t know the nature of existence. I think about it more than just about anything else and I like to think I have some intellectual game. As I said earlier, it is about the struggle. The vast and ancient mysteries and wonders of existence defies any sort of certainty, especially the smug, condescending type that was Hitchens stock in trade.

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 2:32 pm

You piss and moan about Hitchens saying WE

This was done AFTER you kindly provided the definitions that you kindly suggest WE use to frame the debate. It matters not that you are God Fearing Christian. You Sir are the one who has taken it upon yourself to frame it. I seemed to have missed that memo..

at any rate..

You said….

God – by definition MUST be universal.

I thought you said LIBERTY MUST come first.

Do yourself a favour and make up your mind..

[imgcomment image[/img]

Well fuckmedead. It should have been obvious all along..
All we need to do is get everybody on the same page
then liberty will surely reign..

Where has that been tried before… oh yeah!

[imgcomment image?w=960[/img]

What if there is no God.
What if the Bible has no more provenance than the US Constitution
No moar than the writings of Thomas Paine.
And What if there is no beginning and will be no end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch

And yeah Hitchens is, as I view him, or was according to the haters, a pompous asshole. To which I say tough. It is Rulez For Radicals baby! Do onto to them first what they would do onto you.

Maybe just step back for a minute and see a world where God doesn’t exist. Just do it. How would you view the laundry list that so kindly provided above.

Would it be helpful?
or
Would it sound like something written by a pompous blowhard?

Answer those questions honestly and maybe your codex doesn’t slump into big steaming pile of shit.

DRUD
DRUD
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 5:59 pm

You conflate separate thoughts. When I say God is Universal, I am talking about a concept. When I say liberty must come first, I am speaking about observable sociological data that shows clearly that liberty is the best foundation to build a society upon. Practical vs abstract arguments on very different scales of perception.

There may be no God. If there is not my belief will not change that reality. If there is one, your lack of belief will not nullify Him. Point is: neither of us (NONE of us) have the slightest fucking clue what the true nature of all existence is and we never will.
It gives me peace to believe that there is a greater purpose to creation and that alone suggests a God of some type.

I rarely quote the Bible and do not give it divine infallibility. There is tremendous wisdom and beauty in the book. That is obvious.

“What if there is no beginning and there will be no end?” Don’t know what this has to do with our discussion, but I;m happy to discuss Cosmology. Something from nothing (latent energy of free space) comes up everywhere. The question becomes whether this process was set in motion by God or was an effect created by some unknown cause outside of our perception? Who knows? It is all speculation and further proof of our sublime ignorance. From our perspective, nothing could matter less. The universe in infinite in all dimensions (including time) from our infinitesimal perspective. We humans all have a beginning and an end.

And when I use “we” I am setting up a logical framework, not wanting to form society according to my views.

You are asking me to contemplate a world without God. I have and do. But it is pointless and illogical. The world is what we CAN observe, go can only be guessed at…we contemplate God based upon what we see in the world. If we say unequivocally say “There is no God” all we have really done is shut down an avenue for pondering our existence. Nothing more. Either way we are simply shouting into the void…But contemplating my very existence is an ability I have and I will use it to its fullest.

You are pissed now and I get it. It’s an emotional topic and as much like to think we are always reasonable, emotion trumps logic every time.

We don’t know. We will never know. It doesn’t matter what the capital “T” truth about God is…love as best as we can….help each other through this thing, whatever it is…and work on yourself first. I will endeavor to do these things.

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 8:51 pm

There are folks who think there is no God you fucken dullard! You are the one who the did the TBP wiki page. You’re so kind. You say I am conflating when I use your own words. Oh the hugemanity!

[imgcomment image[/img]

Werds from The Platform Prophet.

God – by definition MUST be universal. EVERYTHING that is either came into being by random chance (natural process) OR was Created. Period. This happened ~14 BILLION years ago and encompasses a Cosmos vast beyond imagining (perhaps infinite).

MUST be universal! You seemed pretty sure saying that.. are you sure!

that wuz then, now not so much

Now yer saying’

There may be no God. If there is not my belief will not change that reality. If there is one, your lack of belief will not nullify Him. Point is: neither of us (NONE of us) have the slightest fucking clue what the true nature of all existence is and we never will.
It gives me peace to believe that there is a greater purpose to creation and that alone suggests a God of some type.

What in the FUCK does that mean! I am going in circles with your double negatives. So you believe in God but not really. Whatta maroon!

And where did I say I lacked belief. I have said over and over again that I have faith that Lord Odin is the Great Protector of this world.

Then you sez

You are asking me to contemplate a world without God. I have and do. But it is pointless and illogical.

Ask your self. Does that make any sense.

Stucky best get on the phone with the folks in Oslo!
WE, there’s that werd again, need to nominate Drud for the Nobel Prize in being a Dumbass.

[imgcomment image[/img]

DRUD
DRUD
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 9:05 pm

Ok

DRUD
DRUD
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 9:36 pm

Fine, as the late great Chris Cornell once crooned “One more time around.”

“There are folks who think there is no God you fucken dullard!”

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Huh????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

yes. There are people who think there is no God. I really have no fucking clue WTF this has to do with anything I’ve said.

You were conflating two SEPARATE arguments I made. Yes, they are my own words but not on the same subject.

Yes, God as a concept (Creator of the Universe) MUST be universal–IF HE WERE TO EXIST. I make no assertions of my beliefs with this statement. This is just logic. To Create everything he must be at least as great as everything.
RELIGION CAN NEVER be bigger than humanity. It is entirely encompassed within human history on this tiny blue dot.
LOGIC NOT ASSERTIONS.

I do not know if there is a God….God cannot be proven or disproven. Even you BFF Hitchens agreed with this.

“You are asking me to contemplate a world without God. I have and do. But it is pointless and illogical.

Ask your self. Does that make any sense.”

Yes, but I did not articulate it well enough. The world is a KNOWN, God always an UNKNOWN. Logic dictates starting with the known and then speculation on the unknowns. My point was this: the world is as it is, whether there is a God or not.

“What in the FUCK does that mean! I am going in circles with your double negatives. So you believe in God but not really. Whatta maroon!”

Faith, the smallest of the logical domains, is a CHOICE. I (usually) choose to believe in God despite having no direct evidence of His existence and sometimes even evidence against. It is a struggle…the struggle has meaning even if life has none.

Call me a maroon all you want. I just don’t see any point in reciprocating.

Happy Tiw’s Day!

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 10:19 pm

Gotcha Bitch!

It is now the Donald Rumsfeld School of Theology.

Known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns blah blah blah..

Well fuck me with a spoon and call me Silver. never thought I’d say this but my mind is now at ease!

So in closing there is no God cuz you can’t prove it or maybe, or it must might be or something like that….

awesome!

You’re the best!

Cordially Yours in Odin,

RiNS

DRUD
DRUD
  DRUD
January 9, 2018 11:07 pm

I have never ordered bombing the shit out of other countries nor worn glasses.

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 10:03 pm

I always found Hitchens to be a effete blowhard.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

DRUD
DRUD
  hardscrabble farmer
January 9, 2018 10:42 am

I spent a good deal of time listening to Hitchens, Dawkins and a lot of Lawrence Krauss. Very intelligent guys and strong arguments. But, yes, blowhards one and all.

If you strip everything else away, their platform is always: I seek to improve all humanity to my level of understanding, then we will have peace. Contrasted to a person of faith who’s platform is: I want to improve myself to be like God. Whether God exists or not, I will always prefer the latter.

i forget
i forget
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 3:09 pm

States are religions, too.

RiNS
RiNS
  i forget
January 8, 2018 3:12 pm

Exactly. That was the point of the “hitchslap”

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 3:28 pm

Forget, you owe RiNS an apology.

RiNS how do you do all this thinking stuff up there where it is freezing cold. Most impressive.

i forget
i forget
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 3:32 pm

HR if you don’t owe me a hint, can I borrow one?

RiNS
RiNS
  i forget
January 8, 2018 9:24 pm

If it matters forget I forgive you, not sure what for as I was having too much fun with the flamethrower…

[imgcomment image[/img]

RiNS
RiNS
  Hollywood Rob
January 8, 2018 3:38 pm

Jogging in place, if ya catch my drift.

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 8, 2018 4:31 pm

Oh Bullshit. “WE make those what WE teach our children.” Who’s fucking “WE?” The noble, enlightened, rational, and of course atheist, INTELLECTUAL ELITE running the fucking STATE he proposes. What a disaster it would make.
I do not for a second disagree with he idea of teaching our children rational, critical thought, but HIS whole point is I”M RIGHT everyone who disagrees with me is WRONG and the STATE should force everyone to think like me….then we’ll have utopia.
I am all for logic and reason…but LIBERTY MUST come first. If it takes a back seat to ANYTHING else, all roads lead to tyranny.

RiNS
RiNS
  DRUD
January 8, 2018 9:19 pm

Now yer just losing your shit…

DRUD
DRUD
  RiNS
January 9, 2018 10:52 am

Not an argument.

RiNS
RiNS
  RiNS
January 9, 2018 11:27 am

Exactly

Hagar
Hagar
January 8, 2018 1:23 pm

Wow, after being out of pocket for a while, first thing I see on TBP is a Stucky masterpiece.

God, for lack of a better word, is just a individual construct for each having different meanings, motives, rules, mores, for each of us. The major (and minor) religions of the world have used the Omnipotent One to rule and instruct us how to live and give to the Church of Whatever thereby achieving eternal salvation. Nevertheless, there must be a force, intelligence, spirit, God or gods that created our universe. There are moral truths I cannot dispute, like porn; I know it when I see it. I am pretty sure that whatever morals I have came from a Christian upbringing, but that is not to say that Christianity has a lock on morality. Most of the rest of the world peoples who have had some sort of upbringing in a religious environment share those morals. Even avowed atheists share in those morals. Sin and blasphemy are the tools of the religious leaders to control the masses and to collect monies and enhance their control. Yep, I am a skeptic of organized religion…all of them. Yet I do believe in God, for lack of a better word.

Oh well, I’d like to write more, but duty calls.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Hagar
January 8, 2018 3:25 pm
Hagar
Hagar
  Stucky
January 10, 2018 5:10 am

Stucky,

“Everybody talks about morals … here, there, everywhere. But, I wonder how many people ever deeply question why they believe what they do … and after answering that, where those beliefs originated from.”

Indeed! While I assumed morals were taught and learned, perhaps it is in our DNA or some cosmic thread of…of …of…whatever. Shit, I lack the words. Better thinkers than I will have to thrash this out. Hope you do explore this conundrum.

RiNS
RiNS
  Stucky
January 10, 2018 7:21 am

Stucky

Be great to start with.. Morality comes from God”s Law.

I find it hard to believe that without a BiBle that Parents would beat their kidz…

[imgcomment image[/img]

Crap! Yeah it is hard…Bad example. Let me think about that one again…

RiNS
RiNS
  Stucky
January 10, 2018 7:41 am

Well Getting back to the seven reasons. Might one be…

#3
Whatever happens, as long as you have the book, you will always come out on top..

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 6:17 am

Stuck – any decent collision will write Benz off. With insurance you would get most of your money back, but not the car. It takes not much to generate $11k of panel work on a Benz. You bought a great car. Just not one cheap to repair in any way.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 6:51 am

Oh, and by the way, you might tell her 1) that thingy beside the throttle pedal can be used to slow the car down, and 2) to put a pillow on the seat so she can see over the wheel.

Those two bits of info might reduce the speeding tickets and the collisions.

Just a helpful couple of thoughts. Be sure to tell her they are your ideas. I do not need the credit. I get plenty for all my other great ideas.

By the way, the lizard in my pants is a goanna. Look it up.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
January 9, 2018 11:05 am

I looked up the goanna. Very impressive. I don’t get it.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  starfcker
January 9, 2018 12:01 pm

Stuck said I had a tiny lizard. I have goannas around my place over 6 feet long. My lizard ain’t tiny.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
January 9, 2018 12:15 pm

I’m messing with you. My buddy Adam is the head reptile guy at Zoo Miami, he breeds rare crocodiles and stuff like that, he had some big goannas, I watched him feed them some jumbo frozen rats, they would bolt them down in about 5 seconds. Little dinosaurs. I’ll bet they eat a lot of those brown snakes though

southeuropean counterpart
southeuropean counterpart
  Stucky
January 10, 2018 5:18 am

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn is often referred to Dostoevsky.

“In Dostoyevsky’s early adulthood. He became involved in a group known as the “Russian Utopian Socialists,” influenced by Belinsky, a well known literary critic. The partnership formed by the two presumably shook Dostoyevsky’s faith, as his revered mentor found that “as a socialist, he had to destroy Christianity in the first place. He knew that the revolution must necessarily begin with atheism.”
Later, though, Dostoyevsky broke off from the specific branch of the movement, forming the Durov circle. He was arrested for “the circulation of a private letter full of insolent expressions against the Orthodox Church.”
Evidently, he had forgotten his mother’s teachings.

While in prison (where the only book allowed was The Bible) it appears Dostoyevsky began to reemerge as a believer, writing in a letter to Mrs. N.D. Fonvizin:

I believe that there is nothing lovelier, deeper, more sympathetic, more rational, more manly and more perfect than the Savior;…If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not the truth”
http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/previous/ru351/studentpapers/God.shtml

And as Dostoevsky, he wandered all his life seeking his faith.
…just as St. Augustine, who spent half the life with the Manichaean teaching , finally found his faith and his God.
Millions of others are so roaming.
In anonymity. And with the most diverse results.

RiNS
RiNS
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 8:57 pm

Well Stucky I have been giving it my best stirring up the shit monkeys Drud thinks I am pissed. Actually I am having a blast. Even trying to reach for some laughs or two..

Yours in Odin, fer now!

RiNS

BL
BL
  Stucky
January 9, 2018 10:44 pm

Stuck- I am useless, pulled something in my shoulder lifting something heavy, sorry. RiNS has been in rare form, wish I could add to the count.

Mary Christine
Mary Christine
January 9, 2018 10:15 pm

Someone, Gayle maybe, said it seems that you are wrestling with God. With or about or maybe both. She noted that the last person known to wrestle with God ended up lame. God was losing the wrestling match, you know. Interesting story.

DRUD
DRUD
  Stucky
January 10, 2018 12:28 am

When and where has everything that could be called religion taken place? Again that we know about for sure. As opposed to where and when would everything we call God have to have existed?

So, no, the whole point is to separate God and religion from a logical domain standpoint.

starfcker
starfcker
January 10, 2018 6:25 am

#199. Tell us more about the car, Stuck

RiNS
RiNS
January 10, 2018 6:35 am

200 bitchez

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
January 10, 2018 9:57 am

Right. Like who doesn’t have a signed satanic bible. We all have a signed satanic bible. It probably came in the glove box of that mercedes you just bought.