Guest Post by The Zman
Way back in the tyranny of Bush the Minor, I read a funny article in one of the news magazines, while waiting for a haircut. This was in the early days of his administration when the accounting scandals hit and the tech bubble burst tanked the economy. The liberal media was sure it was all the result of the gods being angry over Bush getting elected over Gore, so they filled their pages with horror stories about the economy. The story was a tale of woe about Ivy League grads unable to find work.
The one example I always remember was about a girl who had graduated from Harvard and was unable to find a job she deserved. Instead she was reduced to waiting tables (gasp!) and doing temp work in offices. The story went through her struggles to get interviews and her process of considering alternative career options. Finally she landed a job as a social worker for the city. The piece wrapped up with a quick summary of her story and it was revealed that she had majored in folklore at Harvard.
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Whenever the topic of college majors comes up, I always think of that story. I’ve made a hobby of rooting around in the course catalogs of liberal arts colleges, looking for bizarre classes and majors. Nothing so far has topped the Harvard Folklore and Mythology degree. Our colleges are full of lunatics doing useless work, of course, but there is some effort to dress it up as legitimate academic work. There’s no way to dress up a major in folklore. Exactly no one has ever said in an emergency, “We need a folklorist!”
Anyway, this post on Greg Cochran’s site brought all that to mind. His post links to this cool graphic put together by NPR displaying the majors over time, relative to other majors and college graduates as a whole. It’s one of those things that could be done with charts or traditional graphs, but it is a lot more fun hovering over that thing. I learned that there is such a thing as a fitness major, which sounds a lot like gym, but my bet is it has lots of “queering” and race stuff to it. Pointless majors tend to go hard for the crazy.
Another interesting tidbit is the fact that zoology has just about disappeared as a college major. It looks like the annual numbers are in the hundreds now. Maybe colleges have re-branded it as something cooler. Biology has not had a ton of growth over the last few decades either, so maybe not. It does suggest that young people no longer have an interest in the natural world. My guess is the number of young people experiencing the natural world is at an all-time low. Kids are not into hunting, fishing or farming.
The volume of business majors is the eye opener. Greg asked in his post what readers thought was the least valuable degree. That’s a loaded question, but objectively business has to be on the list. Most of the course work is stuff you never need in the business world. Accounting courses are useful, but few kids retain any of it. The math courses should be helpful, but many business majors never take more than the minimum of math required for graduation. The SAT scores for business majors explain the popularity.
The truth is, college is a major waste of time and money for most of the students. Only 59% of students graduate from college in six years. Some fraction of the rest go back and get their credential, but by that point it has lost its market value. This assumes it has a market value. A Ivy League diploma still carries weight. A Stanford degree opens secret doors that most don’t know exist, but in the case of the elite, it is not the degree so much as the connections. Mixing with tomorrow’s rulers is the real value of the degree.
Outside of STEM fields, it is hard to judge the value of a college degree. The constant refrain from the college industrial complex is that college graduates earn eleventy billion more in their lifetime, compared to non-graduates. There a lot of fun with numbers in those studies. People with “some college” tend to earn about the same as people with four-year degrees, suggesting IQ is the real issue here. If you are bright enough to get into college, you are as bright as the people who get out of college with a degree.
The only way to measure the value of a diploma is on a case by case situation. If your goal is to be an engineer, then you need the paper. On the other hand, if you are walking out of college with $80,000 in debt, by the time you pay off the loans, the real cost is 30% more in interest and opportunity cost. Your lifetime earnings probably justify that initial investment. On the other hand, if your goal is to be a medieval folklorist, you’re probably better off playing a lot of Dungeons & Dragons or World of Warcraft.
All that aside, the college rackets are another example of how social trust has declined in America over the generations. There’s little doubt now that colleges prey on the angst of middle-class families. The declining value of a college diploma corresponds with the skyrocketing cost of getting it. It is a bust out, the sort of thing predators do to people they view as strangers. Just as the college campus is a collection of grifters pretending to be colleagues and academics, America is a land of strangers pretending to be citizens.
Even with STEM fields, if you are a white male, you will have greater difficulties securing employment. A “caste” system exists in many STEM fields, especially anything to do with information technology. Once a foreign group gains control, they tend to employ only those in their “caste”…”red-dot Indians, Chinese, etc. No white males need apply…
I guess my kid must be Asian, and I missed seeing all these years. The offers that pour in for talented IT kids you would not believe. $300k+ at 26.
The issue with talent is that that there is little of it around. A lot of IT grads that cannot spell IT much less program or understand algorithms.
IT is where it’s at. Period. IMO. That and engineering. IMO.
Just look at the future and tell me where algos aren’t going to make all the difference. Yes, those who can do it will win big. I’d hold out for a partnering offer or create a startup.
The magic word is “Talent”. The degree means nothing if you can’t do the work. It also takes a certain mind set and personality to excel in IT or programming. High pressure, long hours and demanding clients. Need to be able to handle deadlines and stress. Then you get the big bucks.
Robert (QSLV)
Particularly the Indians. As they have move up to project leadership they, understandably, have a preference to their own, especially since they can pay them less. I have spent nearly 20 years as an SAP contractor and have watched the decline both the quality of client management and the cheap labor they choose. The real issue here, by the way, is the quality of the personnel on the client/management side.
The seriousness of my college career in the mid-eighties can be summed up in a agitated phone call I took from one of my rugby mates at around 10:00 AM on, I think it was a Thursday. He frantically declared, “We need beer, dope, and a VCR!”
That was the end of my academic aspirations for that day.
It’s also hard to get any schoolwork done when one sits around swilling Hamms beer and watching Chuck Woolery on “Love Connection” at three in the afternoon. Of course that was after a liquid lunch at a local tavern and before rugby practice. After practice, it was time to crack a book for a half-hour or so before heading off to Frenchy’s Bar and Grill for a little post-studying cool down and some serious girl-chasing. Ah…those were the halcyon days of intellectual endeavor.
Damn kids these days.
I wonder when the rot set in. I am betting on the mid-80s.
The rot? I’d say started with a bang with the 1965 immigration act, no-fault divorce, Roe v. Wade and the pill, all within just a few years. Close the gold window, fire up the printing presses, and we’re off to the races. By the mid-80s, we had Sex, Drugs, Rock-n-Roll, a booming fiat economy, and cold war nihilism. Good time to be alive, but bonfire of vanities, indeed.
I don’t see why you received the down votes. Seems like well reasoned reasons.
Start your own tech companies.
I graduated with a CompSci major and a minor in accounting. It took me 2 1/2 years all while working full time. I was on a mission. After about a year I started creating an accounts receivable system for my father’s company. Looking back, it wasn’t anything groundbreaking but it was a start. Oh if I could have just stayed out of trouble…I fucked up and went down a dark path.
what path ?
In a society based on the wealth created by oil and coal, where half the people don’t work and still don’t starve, a folklore degree isn’t a bad thing. No worse than a history degree. Or, black studies.
The problem is that she thought that someone would hire her. Absent a need for income, her interest and passion isn’t a bad thing. It adds to the culture. She needs a sponsor or husband.
At my recent interview the person from HR asked me if I’d had any ‘continuing education’ since I paid everything I had, $4000, out of my pocket to get my paralegal certificate. I wanted to reply “Are you out of your mind? Have you priced out the cost of ‘continuing education’ lately?” I’m too old to go thousands or tens of thousands of dollars into debt for ‘continuing education’ which provides me no guarantee of a job. I did reply that I’ve learned a lot on the job at the places I’ve worked over the past few years, which is true. I doubt I’ll get a call back. Again.
‘Continuing education’ doesn’t have to be at a college, or be expensive.
For instance, I am active in several of our local chapters of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME). We have monthly meetings that include a presentation by guest speakers usually reviewing ‘case studies’ of some problem encountered at a plant somewhere and how it was eventually solved. Excellent ‘real world’ stuff.
I am also active with our local chapter of the Vibration Institute (VI). In fact, I’m on the board of directors. The VI meetings are much the same although even more technical in nature.
Meetings are usually about $30 and that includes dinner.
I would imagine that many fields have organizations like these that you can be active with at little cost and are a lot more conducive to ‘continuing education’ than any college might be and can be included in your resume.
I always try to encourage the young people at the plants to become active in one of these groups, but sadly, for the most part they have no interest in them. All of that knowledge and experience that they don’t have is at their fingertips and they ignore it.
When times get tough, the more valuable you make yourself to your employer, the better the chances of you surviving the cut…
Steve C.
“Dammit, Jim, I’m a folklorist, not a doctor!”
1970 10% of Americans have a 4 year degree or higher
2016 32% of Americans have a 4 year degree or higher (meanwhile IQ has dropped while society has went to shit)
College degrees are akin to participation trophies
“Folklore” … Folklure got her. And her parents. And prolly most everyone in her part of the pond.
…and we should care that a dumbass who spent 60,ooo dollars /year tuition studying folklore? I don’t thinkso. She would have learned more working in fast foodfor 4 years and been more employable when she finished.
She could have learned much more folklore off the internet than she ever learned at Harvard, and at no cost, but she wanted the piece of paper with Harvard B.A. on it, at the mere cost of $250 K or so….I have no sympathy for her predicament.
Wip ,i guided Indent Service out of his darkness with black gals.It took him getting that stuff on his private parts but that was good for it taught him the errors of his reasoning..
Now listen to me.Stay out and away from Gay bars before you get that ” stuff ” on your private parts. Butt sex is bad for you.You need to Admit your problem and then do the other 11 steps . I’ll be here if you need cry time !.
Actually, what’s with the gay stuff?
I think he took a liberal stab at homohumor interpreting your ‘dark path’ mistake admission from your earlier comment. But JMO.
Yep, I get it now, except for the gay stuff. I dislike cruising the comments on a celly, it’s not as easy to look at them.
BB – thanks for looking out for me.?
I do have a black girl sex story though. It’s probably too crude for TBP.
If a 19 yr. old knew, or could get help figuring out their occupational goal to aim for, that’s half the battle. I didn’t at that age, & until I did, I dropped University ‘Lib. Arts’ prerequisite classes. I found trade school more interesting, but didn’t attain union journeyman status. Some work better with things, vs. people. Yet, having a good rapport and ability to relate to other people is almost as important as basic math and proper use of the language, with discipline to use dictionaries and thesauruses. Now, the answers are easily found on Gaggle & Wikipedia, besides others. Sadly, many job seekers have poor math & English skills, as we all know. For careers, I’d expect many 4 yr. college grads want the 6 figure income job, sitting in front of a computer, but may not qualify. And yes, with schooling costs so high, and market opportunities, more should be focusing on joining another young entrepreneur, starting their own business if we’ll planned, or find a skilled trades they would enjoy. Nirvana is finding some occupation you love so much, you’d almost do it for free. I missed a calling, to become more efficient at writing, which I love, but producing script that pays well is a challenge, but attainable, if the required effort to succeed is within, and use of time is invested wisely. Ahh well, back to the shop. Boss man is on the prowl.
I tend to think the ROT set in at a low to accelerating pace after Tricky Dick slammed the gold window shut and allowed unlimited money printing in the early and mid 70’s. Luckily, I was already established by then and started buying gold the day he slammed the window (and was working overseas – so that insulated things a bit). In the late 70’s I got a contract in England/Scotland and wrote my own contract for it to include a raise in per diem whenever the dollar fell against the pound. Worked great.
The other thing I did was retire in stages – starting at 45 – took a few years off to do what I wanted to do and then went back to work. Quit the last time in ’96, watching things go down hill the whole time (and they haven’t stopped since).