Life After The Afterlife

Guest Post by The Zman

Is it possible for humans to have a transcendent moral code if they no longer believe in an afterlife? Some Christians today argue that it is impossible to have any sort of morality without belief in Christ, but that’s largely a self-serving claim. God’s role in the affairs of man, in the Christian context, is primarily as the ruler of Heaven. Those, who live a moral life, a Christian life, will spend eternity in Heaven at the foot of Christ. The people who live wicked lives, will be condemned to an eternity out of the sight of God.

-----------------------------------------------------
It is my sincere desire to provide readers of this site with the best unbiased information available, and a forum where it can be discussed openly, as our Founders intended. But it is not easy nor inexpensive to do so, especially when those who wish to prevent us from making the truth known, attack us without mercy on all fronts on a daily basis. So each time you visit the site, I would ask that you consider the value that you receive and have received from The Burning Platform and the community of which you are a vital part. I can't do it all alone, and I need your help and support to keep it alive. Please consider contributing an amount commensurate to the value that you receive from this site and community, or even by becoming a sustaining supporter through periodic contributions. [Burning Platform LLC - PO Box 1520 Kulpsville, PA 19443] or Paypal

-----------------------------------------------------
To donate via Stripe, click here.
-----------------------------------------------------
Use promo code ILMF2, and save up to 66% on all MyPillow purchases. (The Burning Platform benefits when you use this promo code.)

All of the word’s great religions have an afterlife. The Abrahamic faiths, of course, all share a similar conception of Heaven and Hell, with God ruling the former and Satan ruling the latter. Eastern religions have more esoteric and mystical approaches. Buddhists believe in a cycle of death and rebirth. Through eventual enlightenment, they hope to escape this and achieve Nirvana, an end to suffering. Hindus believe that through knowledge and wisdom, you can achieve a liberation of the soul in the afterlife.

The conception of an afterlife as a reward and an escape from human suffering is relatively new to humanity. The Greeks did not have an afterlife. A Greek lived his life so he would be remembered. Maybe his shade would end up in Hades, but that was not much of a reward. The morality of the Greeks assumed that punishment for angering the gods happened in this life. Sacrifices to the gods were all about getting good fortune now, not after death. The gods played an active role in the affairs of man, only while he lived.

The Egyptians had an afterlife, but it was only for the elite. Given their habit of burying servants with the dead, the afterlife could also include the attendants. Like the great man’s other possessions buried with him, it was assumed he would need some slaves and servants once he entered the afterlife. It does not appear that this conception of an afterlife spawned a corresponding moral code. It was not a reward for a life lived well, but a reward for having been born to the right parents and the right station in life.

It is largely believed that the people who gave mankind the concept of an afterlife, one open to everyone who lived righteously, were the Zoroastrians. They believed those who lived on the side of good spent the after life in the House of Song, which they also called the Abode of Light. The Zoroastrians taught that everyone, who followed a proper code, could live forever and that the soul mattered. Those who sided with evil in this life would be condemned to an eternity of darkness and torment.

The Zoroastrians also gave us the duality of God on one side and Satan on the other. They used different terms. Ahura Mazda is the creator of the world and father of the two spirits, Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu. The former is the “good” spirit, the latter, is the destructive  and evil one. This conflict between good and evil is central to Zoroastrianism and provided the foundation of their moral philosophy. It is also the first known example of a religion basing a moral code on something beyond the here and now.

The Jews picked this up from their time in captivity. The Pentateuch has no reference to Satan, but the Book of Job, written much later, has the familiar Satan figure. In Daniel, Heaven and Hell appear for the first time. Given the history of the Jewish people at this time, it is most likely that they borrowed these concepts from the Zoroastrians. The Satan that Jesus describes is pretty much the Zoroastrian Angra Mainyu. Christian morality is entirely built on the concept of the afterlife and the battle between good and evil.

This is why Nietzsche blamed the Zoroastrians for morality. He and most Europeans scholars of the age were familiar with Zoroastrianism and understood its influence on the Abrahamic religions. Thus Spake Zarathustra is his effort to turn Zoroastrian moral philosophy on its head. Rather than an eternity of good versus evil, he has an re-imagined Zarathustra discover his error and correct the mistake of morality. Nietzsche is a tough read, but the implication is there can be no morality without the supernatural.

The question for our age is can we maintain a moral code when no one believes in God or an afterlife? This is clearly something our betters struggle with, even though they don’t think of it in these terms. The New Religion that Progressives are trying to impose upon us has no explicit god or eternal reward for the faithful. Instead, they are forced to conjure mystical stand-ins like the “tides of history” or appeals to nature. Even their appeals to science are really just appeals to an unnamed and mystical deity.

Right wing Progressives suffer from the same dilemma. It’s not an accident that you never hear conservative pundits make explicit appeals to Christian morals or even Jewish morality. Instead, they argue that Donald Trump is immoral because he vexes the shade of Ronald Reagan or Bill Buckley. They may not come out and call these guys deities, but they certainly treat them as prophets. Put another way, lacking any moral authority they have turned Reagan and Buckley into apostles of a messiah that is never mentioned.

This is, of course, the root of our current cultural troubles. For example, on whose authority was racism made a mortal sin? If it is, what happens when you commit this crime? From whom do you ask forgiveness? If the racist and the anti-racist molder in the same ground together after death, what’s the point of being a devout anti-racist? Perhaps that’s the real reason Progs are digging up Confederate soldiers. They lack an afterlife beyond the graveyard, so that will be their heaven and only the righteous will be buried.

Now, it does not follow that we are condemned to an age of might makes right. The Greeks got along fine without worrying about the afterlife. They did have a set of gods, who had to be mollified. Otherwise, bad things would happen to man in this life. Given the shape of our nature cults and the fanaticism of our secular elites, it is clear that we have not evolved past the point of needing a transcendent morality. That suggests some new deity will replace the Christian god and we get a new conception of the afterlife.

Alternatively, the recent efforts to fashion a civic religion will founder as it lacks the necessary moral authority to induce voluntary compliance. The Christianity that flowered in the middle ages may be on the ropes, but something new will surely spring from its ruins. Perhaps the flood of Islam into the West is part of that process. That’s not to say that the West will embrace Islam, but that the soul abhors a vacuum. Maybe we are on the edge of a great religious experiment, like that which birthed Zoroastrianism.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
53 Comments
Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
January 16, 2018 7:39 am

Z, I am impressed. While I don’t agree with your conclusions, I do find your contentions compelling. For me, the lack of a moral foundation for all of our “leaders” seems to stem from a secure feeling of entitlement due to the firm belief that you need to take everything that you can get in this life because there is no life to follow. Why would you need an afterlife if you got everything that you wanted in this life? If god does not offer any punishment, and man does not have the reach to punish you, what is to curtail your penchant for taking everything that you want? Everything that you can get your filthy little hands on. This is actually the underpinnings for my definition of evil as the taking of anything which is not freely given.

BB
BB
January 16, 2018 8:03 am

I have studied all these religions .Up and down then sideways.If Christ is not who He said He was then I am doomed.I am 56 years of age and have no hope in man , country or anything else on this Earth .If Christ is not God then I die to become dust but if Christ is God then I will have a life with a new body in a new creation under the rule of Christ.
God I hope Christ is God !

Wip
Wip
  BB
January 16, 2018 8:12 am

The Bible is either the truth or the greatest hoax of all time.

RiNS
RiNS
  BB
January 16, 2018 9:01 am

What if he wuz a frog, spoke Spanish and ate tacos?

[imgcomment image[/img]

Would that be okay?

LGR
LGR
  BB
January 16, 2018 9:19 am

Yes, BB, I tend to agree. Blessed is He who has not seen, yet still believes, and tries, right?
I’ve experienced too many incidents in my life that revealed & reinforced His presence, when sought,
but that’s just my interpretation.
That statement right there puts one at risk for ridicule and humiliation, but to them I pay no heed.
“you’ve seen Him, eh? Right….”
I do try, and act with a reasonably good effort at morality and character in this life
because it helps me navigate through it, with ongoing reflection of what we face, and how to
use what I choose individually for reference, guidance, and lessons on improving what’s good.
To each his own, in the multitude of philosophies, for judging right from wrong, smart or foolish.
It’s been said before, here, and elsewhere:
“I’d rather follow Him, with maybe mild disappointment if
Christ is not encountered in, or the non-existence of an afterlife, than choosing not to believe, and not acting in accordance with His lessons, then discovering He does exist, but not being embraced there, due to immorality while here.”
And yes, I miss the mark frequently, with speech, thought, and actions. But I’ll keep trying.

I’ll willingly state those beliefs, but am a bit unwilling to try and ‘convince or convert’ the varying degrees of unbelief, for strictly personal reasons. I’d rather let them find their own path, with some suggestions for what works for me. But only with inquiries or requests.
Too busy working on my own path, to spend time peddling unwanted suggestions to others.
The ones most in need of it usually don’t want to hear it.
To each their own.
Vaya con Dios, brother.

Dutchman
Dutchman
  BB
January 16, 2018 11:34 am

There sure is an after life – we are living it in HELL right now.

All this religion stuff – is mumbo jumbo.

kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 8:29 am

“The New Religion that Progressives are trying to impose upon us has no explicit god…”
……..their deity is Government

“Right wing Progressives…”
…….Huh?; a new one on me; I am sure to be corrected

Sean Mallory
Sean Mallory
  kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 3:06 pm

Lincoln and T. Roosevelt were both progressives. NeoCons are progressives who love Israel.

RiNS
RiNS
January 16, 2018 9:08 am

Life and the Afterlife in a gif..

[imgcomment image[/img]

Why spend life planning for the prison of eternity in the next.

Iska Waran
Iska Waran
January 16, 2018 9:17 am

Aside from the truth or falsity of the idea that morality requires God, that proposition has always struck me as poor evidence of God’s existence. If God exists, it’s not because we need Him. I’d guess that most people could have a functioning moral code without God. It would be based on the attempt at consistency. A minority of people wouldn’t see any point to consistency or need for a moral code, but then some religious people are provoked by their beliefs about God to some horrific actions. The Muslims seem an extreme example of this, although not the only one. Overall, I think Darwin had it about right when he said he’d rather be shipwrecked on a Christian land than a pagan one – although if he hadn’t been white, the calculation might have been reversed. The post-Christian countries of Europe are demonstrating their idiocy by not being willing or able to differentiate between the head-lopping and the non-head-lopping religions. Even if you consider them all equally stupid, they’re not equally dangerous.

Llpoh
Llpoh
January 16, 2018 9:19 am

God is a chipmunk, and Alvin is his prophet.

Makes as much sense as any other religion.

Alvin
Alvin
  Llpoh
January 16, 2018 7:35 pm

Looks like a lot of TBPersare not going to the Great Oak Tree in the sky. Unbelievers will suffer with no acorns nor warm hollow in which to hibernate.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Alvin
January 17, 2018 1:15 am

Chipmunks live in the ground.

Alvin
Alvin
  Hollywood Rob
January 17, 2018 1:45 am

Not divine chipmunks. They live in Holy Oak Trees. You need to read the second chapter of the Chipmunk Holy Book – the Book of alvin. It clearly explains this. Holy Chipmunks do not live in the ground like common chipmunks.

Diogenes
Diogenes
January 16, 2018 9:44 am

We give up our bodies and consciousness willingly every night in deep non-dreaming sleep. If you are lucky enough to be able to fall asleep. I believe humans would go insane without the break from consciousness that sleep brings. If you died while in deep sleep would you care? (paraphrase of Lucretis)

kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
  Diogenes
January 16, 2018 9:48 am

NO

TS
TS
January 16, 2018 9:48 am

I’ll have to come back, short of time right now.
First, the Book of Job is actually accounted as one of the first written, if not the oldest Book.
The morality thing comes down to a real simple core question. From where does a person derive their morality and how can it possibly be better or worse than anyone else’s unless there is a standard outside of your own? Anything goes if its just me choosing what I think is good.
Gotta go. But I am sure I will be back.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  TS
January 16, 2018 11:21 am

You know, TitSup, I had heard the same thing. I’m continually amazed at the lax manner in which folks substantiate their argument. This seems pretty sloppy if not delberate lying. Maybe stuck can clarify.
EC

TS
TS
  Anonymous
January 16, 2018 1:24 pm

How ’bout I clarify right now.
Either there is a base-line standard for morality, or each one’s choice conflicts with everyone else’s. Which boils down to ‘might makes right’. Which immediately justifies every tyranny, oppression, murder, rape, theft; etc. etc. After all, they were following their own moral code.
And if you can’t see the logic in that I will be more than willing to supply even more detail. Use your brain, logic and critical thinking skills, EC.

AnarchoPagan
AnarchoPagan
  TS
January 16, 2018 11:12 pm

Here’s some logic for you: either there is a base-line standard for morality OTHER THAN God, or the statement “God is good” is meaningless. God can’t be both the measuring rod and the object of measurement.

By The Way
By The Way
January 16, 2018 9:50 am

Actually most historians and biblical scholars consider the Book of Job to be the oldest, most ancient book in the Bible, not the Pentateuch.

kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 9:54 am

The complexity of the Universe, Solar Systems, Galaxies, etc., is many, many orders of magnitude beyond understanding of the human body.

If there is a reason to believe, it is this immense complexity that cannot simply be explained by chance.

RiNS
RiNS
  kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 10:50 am

Sounds like the set up line to some sort of fools paradox.

kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
  RiNS
January 16, 2018 11:45 am

RiNS…I admit to not understanding your comment.

However, I wish to remind you that I am an Atheist – I don’t believe in a soul, reincarnation or anything else that is beyond the physical and historical.

Yet, I am willing to acknowledge the unexplained and their mysteries.

edit: and I respect those that observe religions which do not propose harm to others, physical, mental, or material.

RiNS
RiNS
  kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 12:39 pm

Fair enough..
The only debate really is whether I am a fool. I tend to lead towards fool.

Yet that is just me.

As for respect, it depends on degrees, as to which religions do not do harm to others in a physical, mental, or material way. I ain’t no Philadelphia Lawyer but if those are the parameters for pass or fail then nobody would get to the gate. Just sayin’… As for standing in the moral hierarchy. Why should I defer to them based on some book of their own providence.

This essay started with question.

Is it possible for humans to have a transcendent moral code if they no longer believe in an afterlife?

Was this question that even answered in this piece? All I can say for sure is “because reasons” ain’t the answer for me.

[imgcomment image[/img]

As to the paradox. It lies in the minglings of faith to prove that negative?

Robert (QSLV)
Robert (QSLV)
  kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 11:31 am

The universe is the portal through which the face of God may be seen.
[imgcomment image[/img]

Robert (QSLV)

pyrrhus
pyrrhus
January 16, 2018 11:30 am

Quite a few of us believe in the immortality of the soul, and in reincarnation. Read the accounts written by Eben Alexander (Harvard neurosurgeon), Anita Moorjani (Dying to be me), or Dr. Brian Weiss (Yale psychiatrist and head of psychiatry at a prominent hospital) (Many Lives many Masters).Not to mention billions of people in Asia. And many of us have had near death experiences or other profound spiritual experiences…Many quantum physicists became mystics of one sort or another, because the double slit experiment shows that consciousness determines physical outcomes. Western materialism has failed, because it ignores reality.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  pyrrhus
January 16, 2018 3:55 pm

Well Pyrhus, quite a few of you believe that the earth is flat. And quite a few of you used to believe that the earth was the center of the universe and that the stars were painted on a glass ceiling. So what quite a few of you believe is in no way a compelling argument. And by the way, the double slit experiment does not show that consciousness determines physical outcomes. It might show that the measurement device affects the parameters being measured but not that your knowing which path the light took determines the path that the light took.

Oh and yes, western materialism has failed because it ignores reality, but perhaps not the reality that you are thinking of.

DRUD
DRUD
  Hollywood Rob
January 17, 2018 11:09 am

All true, but none of it gets to the real question of Genesis. The latest in Cosmology suggests that there was no matter present at the Big Bang…rather that free space has latent energy (zero point) and is ultimately unstable. In other words, all the matter and energy in the universe came from nothingness. Is this hard science or belief? It certainly has shades of both….yes, brilliant people use complex maths and intricate experiments to come up with these notions, but the level of extrapolation necessary is extreme. To a flea the whole universe is a jungle of hair…does that explain all of reality?

We are hopelessly, ridiculously ignorant about the nature of existence.

With that in mind, I don’t think “The question for our age is can we maintain a moral code when no one believes in God or an afterlife?” is the real question. We can and do and God my not exist, so yes. The bigger question is “Does anything (including morality) matter without God?” We are infinitesimal in the twin perspectives of space and time…but in thought? We are certainly rare and perhaps even unique in all of the Cosmos. What other collections of atoms…out of some 10^200 known to exist…can ask themselves these questions? Whether here by accident or Purpose, and despite our ugly nature at times, we are extraordinary.

Personally, I think morality does matter. I think people that live entirely without it live in utter, unexpressed misery…I think people that live to the best of their ability within a strict moral code live best, despite the often high costs associated with such a code. I think that we are here to overcome pain and fear and to learn to love. I think that these things put together suggest a Higher Purpose to all things and this Purpose we call God. I can’t begin to describe the nature of such a God–something so immense and ancient and powerful as to create this Cosmos and everything in it. I think religion is the result of man’s foolish effort to do so.

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
  Hollywood Rob
January 17, 2018 1:21 pm

No, quite a few of us do not believe in the numerous explanations for celestial phenomenon that are promoted by The State, nor do we trust in complex explanations for what ought to be simple data points. If that calls into question concepts and theories that CAN. NOT. BE PROVEN. in a controlled environment, so be it.

BB
BB
January 16, 2018 12:17 pm

LGR ,
I know if I pray in the morning before I do anything else my day goes alot Better.I have noticed this over and over if I’m have a bad day it’s usually because of not praying.I also try to use God’s moral law as a guide for living but I completely fail in my thoughts . It’s my thoughts are evil at times. Especially when I read about our nation and all the problems.I just try to remember who is in control and it’s not me.

Diogenes
Diogenes
  BB
January 16, 2018 12:40 pm

I’ve had the same result with masturbation.

kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
  Diogenes
January 16, 2018 12:57 pm

You and Stucky in same town?

Diogenes
Diogenes
  kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon
January 16, 2018 3:04 pm

“I know if I masturbate in the morning before I do anything else my day goes alot Better.I have noticed this over and over if I’m have a bad day it’s usually because of not masturbating .”

Anonymous
Anonymous
  BB
January 16, 2018 1:47 pm

Agreed again B. Here’s an example. A daily book for scripture today cites how Jesse offered 7 sons he thought were good candidates. God asked for another, and scrawny lil shepherd boy David was presented, & became king after taking out Goliath when all the other soldiers were scared shitless to go fight him.
That story to me has lessons, about how mistaken we can be, with judgement of people, and the plans the Almighty may have for them, not immediately evident at first impression. Reflection on that benefits me, but might do nothing for others, so I don’t push it.
I’ve given horrible first impressions unwittingly, but when those unimpressed got to know me better, we became great friends with many common values.
I learn good things from a variety of sources. Faith practice is just one, but a higher priority one.
~LGR

Edwitness
Edwitness
January 16, 2018 12:18 pm

Prophetic fulfillment is one of the things that makes the writings of the Bible carry weight that the writings of other religions do not. Daniel is a great example of this.
Scholars have tried with no success to force Daniel’s writings to a later date because of the exactness of everything he wrote there that is proven from history. But, they have never been successful because objective scholarship reveals his writing was long before the events took place.
There is no other writing like that which is found in the pages of the Bible. Which proves that any “borrowing” that has happened was done by those zman has claimed were borrowed from in his article.
And according to the apostle Paul, the writer of much of the New Testament, morality one way or the other has nothing to do with how a man becomes a Christian. That is the method used by the false religions to exercise control over their adherents.
A Christian is one by grace through faith in Jesus alone without works of any kind. Otherwise he is no Christian at all.
Blessings:-}

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Edwitness
January 16, 2018 12:33 pm

I can only refer you to the classics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6H5nNZb1M

Mark
Mark
January 16, 2018 12:55 pm

All the general theoretical God pros and cons and maybes and witty agnostic or atheistic snubs and insults or mocking cartoons or lost unbelief or PHD scientific hubris or scared bitterness or anger over suffering or confusing God with some cult or creation or twisted doctrine someone was raised with or any of the new age/old pagan demonic lies or personal trauma or the satanic evil that fills the world (for now) or all of it from every angle by every voice to me in my life is all so much Seinfeld yada, yada, yada.

All that matters to me (for reasons known only to Him) is AFTER I CRIED OUT TO JESUS CHRIST FOR FORGIVENESS (why is personal but let’s just say nothing new under the sun) the supernatural redemption experience He gave me that converted me to become a follower of Him on May 26th at 3:00 am in 1993 changed me instantly and for eternity.

INDESCRIBABLE…there are no words to explain what I experienced.

Maybe because I was such a hard lost case? Maybe because thick headed sinful idiots need a supernatural revealing…touch?

Up until that point if anyone would have told me or anyone who knew me well (including my wife of now of 40 years – 16 years in 93) that I would become a “Born Again” Christian, both I and everyone would have laughed out loud rolling on the ground in hysteria.

Why the Triune God of the Universe would personally touch and change my cold, dead, filthy, proud, wounded, dark, stone heart and turn it into a heart of flesh and put his Holy Spirit in me while revealing not only His existence but His amazing love, grace and forgiveness after my 43 years of ignoring and even mocking Him…I just don’t know? Maybe it was because that is the kind of experience I needed and others are offered and need less dramatic salvation? I don’t know and I don’t care, I’m just thankful. On my knees thankful.

If someone would have told me brokenness and surrender and crying out were the three most freeing, exhilarating and powerful spiritual experiences of my existence on the 3rd rock from the sun…before my personal Road to Damascus experience I would have mocked them too! I’m not saying that’s for everyone…but man, it was for me.

That’s my truelife story…and I’ll be sticking to it for…forever.

DRUD
DRUD
  Mark
January 17, 2018 11:18 am

Beautiful story and a point I have tried to make before. History is replete with these types of conversion stories and they always sound the same. The atheist argues that this all comes from inside you. I argue what’s the real difference? You’re life was changed and dramatically for the better. Why is that such a bad thing? Because believers are stupid and un-scientific? Really?

I would like to point out that I have never heard the converse. Sure, people have abandoned religion in droves…but have you ever heard anyone express profound joy and gratitude over the experience of doing so? Anyone?

Stucky
Stucky
  DRUD
January 17, 2018 2:10 pm

“… but have you ever heard anyone express profound joy and gratitude over the experience of doing so? Anyone?”

Everything in my life became meaningful and beautiful again once I set aside the childish things found in the Bible … and replaced it with Odin. I have joy and peace that passes all understanding. Never been happier! My parents will be in Valhalla soon enough, and I look forward to the day when we are all reunited. I don’t think Odin let’s people live for hundreds of billions of years, or however long eternity is. I think you only get ten thousand years … but they are damned good years, and free of ice monsters. Also, fucking is areal big thing in Valhalla, and you can fuck pretty much anyone with their consent. Odin gives my life meaning. I don’t talk about it much because proselytizing is not a part of the system. Odin thinks most humans are just plain assholes, especially the non-white kind, and he’d rather those people stayed hitched to Christianity.

So, there. I also realize this Odin dude could be total bullshit. But you know what they say; better to live as if Odin exists and if we’re wrong at least we lived a good moral life.

DRUD
DRUD
  Stucky
January 17, 2018 3:11 pm

You’ve simply abandoned one religion for another…not come to the cold, hard and obvious (to any and all thinking people…because science) realization that there is no god and no afterlife and that every notion that there ever was is both foolish and childish. All that happens to us when we inevitably suffer (a fine synonym for living, is it not?) and die is, well…nothing, ever. From oblivion we come and into it we proceed. Hallelujah!

Stucky
Stucky
  DRUD
January 17, 2018 6:29 pm

You are wrong.

Religion is man made … man reaching out to God.

Odin is life. Totally different thing.

I gotta sign off for the day. Please direct any further Odin questions to my mentor, RiNS.

Annie
Annie
January 16, 2018 1:16 pm

I have met atheists with a sense of morality. From what I remember their justification for being good, moral people was that this life is all they have so they want to be the best person they can be with the one chance that they have. Also, they want what is left of them when they’re gone, which is just the memories that others have of them, to be good as well. I’m not sure how much of this is true atheist thought and how much is bleed through from having been raised in a majority Christian civilization.

LGR
LGR
January 16, 2018 1:30 pm

Rob, good point. I tried to focus on Z asking if we could ” maintain a moral code if we don’t believe in God or an afterlife?” I started to answer, but got sidetracked with my own take, but yes, I think many can and do have a moral code with no belief in a higher power or afterlife. Even some atheists have morals. And some believers don’t.

Dutch’s view reflected that of a dear older friend who abandoned religion & believed we are already in hell, and any afterlife if it existed, had to be ‘better’. She’d had more than her share of mental pain & anguish. She was formerly a staunch Catholic.

I remember a good quote. A writer trying to be a guide for others said: ” I’m more into unlearning than learning. I’m trying to unlearn all the garbage that people have laid on me, in earlier years.”
Everyone with a brain has, at some point, changed their mind with things we mistakenly took for truth. My main point was, I’m not into pissing matches of who is right & wrong, about beliefs, evidence, or lack there of. Nor to try correcting others that don’t share a viewpoint. Opinions.
All just opinions, until definitive proof is shown to us all. When? Who knows? I can’t answer that one. Maybe one time we will find out. Maybe never.
But good morals make a better person, imo. How we learn them is a personal experience. ~

DRUD
DRUD
  LGR
January 17, 2018 12:26 pm

Here we see my three logical levels of perception in subtle changes of wording in the same question. Most people would take them the same way, but they are VERY different:

“Can a person with no belief in God of the Afterlife maintain a moral code?” The individual/faith level. This can ONLY be truly answered by one’s self.

The way Z worded it: “The question for our age is can we (society) maintain a moral code when no one believes in God or an afterlife?” The religious/societal/human level. Everything that has ever happened on this Blue Dot, if you like, but nothing beyond.

“Can we have a moral code if there is no God?” The universal/God level. This line of thinking is more along the lines of Dostoevsky’s: “Without God all is permissible.” Or the new testament:
“For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.q 20Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made.r As a result, they have no excuse; ” Roman 1:19-20. The idea being that our having a conscience is, in and of itself, evidence of the Divine.

I am making no assertions here, simply laying out the logical domains once again and hopefully in a new way.

TS
TS
January 16, 2018 2:03 pm

If you have no belief that there is a spiritual aspect to our existence, then why would you even have the slightest interest in these types of discussion? Talk about a waste of time. If you don’t believe it, then why would I waste my time listening to you pontificate? I certainly wouldn’t take any spiritual advise from you or consider your point of view to have any spiritual value. Make sense? Doesn’t mean I don’t respect you, I just don’t see how it can have any weight in a discussion about something you don’t believe exists.
As far as evolution, remove ALL spiritual debate. It has so many holes it is impossible to scientifically verify one iota of its claims. Remove all would be, could be, should be from the discussion and that theory was debunked 60 yrs ago. With solid verifiable physical evidence and conclusions drawn from actual scientific-method, not big ‘S’ Science. Most of you have no idea just how much deception and agenda-driven results are involved. Don’t try to interject whatever theory or belief you think would replace it, let it stand or fall on its own.

The scriptures were never meant for non-believers. The Torah/Old Testament were, until Christ, for the Jewish people. Period. If you were not a Jew it had zero application. If you are not a Child of God believer, as in Gospels and New Testament, none of it has any application to you, and why would you even worry about reading it, let alone trying to cherry-pick parts of it. Why? What do you think you are going to gain? What perverse pleasure do you derive from this?

At that, I’m done. If you have sincere questions, there are answers even if you finally disagree. In depth forensics and physical evidences, and metaphysical considerations. If you are just trying to rag or slam someone because they believe what you don’t believe, I have better things to spend my time and thoughts on.

At the end of it, I ain’t your mentor or nanny. Do your own research, or get a frickin’ life. If you don’t believe there’s a spiritual component to life, no amount of discussion will matter. If you believe there is, then you believe in eternity. In that case, I would think that topic would then become extremely interesting. It’s a really long time to be wrong. Get past the bullshit and really figure out what is what, and why.
Up-vote, down-vote, agree, argue, talk shit; I don’t care, I won’t be back on this thread. I’d rather try to get Unc’s post to 300.

RiNS
RiNS
  TS
January 16, 2018 2:31 pm

Whatta fucken’ maroon..

TS starts off by dismissing all others as less worthy in this debate about morality then gets right to work with pontificating from his pulpit…

But he can’t help himself. A cock in hand is worth two in a bush..

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  TS
January 16, 2018 4:10 pm

I’m with Rob on this one. That was the poorest load of drivel I have seen on this site in a long time. And TS didn’t even keep his promise. After saying he was done he still ran on for two more paragraphs.

RiNS
RiNS
January 16, 2018 3:06 pm
KeyserSusie
KeyserSusie
January 16, 2018 3:13 pm

I believe some do live on in an afterlife. At least their spirit does. I imagine to say the spirit of Christ lives on after his body would not be denied as a statement of fact. Same for _______.
The spirit of the neighborhood boy who died when he ran his jet ski into a dock, lived on, as I would sometimes resurrect his spirit, preaching to my young children when they would go solo on a jet ski or undertake a hazardous recreational mission. The story of Leonidas is still told. If man/woman is made in the image of gÖd then it stands to reason enough good work (or even just inviting said almighty in your life, or not denying like a kāfir) might qualify one for entrance into the god’s pantheon or reality called heaven/paradise.

This martyr stuff is overworked. I once read some book that said in the third century some sects of Christians would throw themselves off cliffs like lemmings because they wanted to enter heaven. That’s when the church began enforcing suicide ethics. Islam should rethink their logic.

Many are resurrected as reminders of evil. Some call it history and some call it myth or religion (or
re legion-ize the masses with association around moral values) Ghosts are stubborn things sometimes.

Z-man’s post was instructional for me. Thanks for the clarity of thought. My thoughts are not always so coherent nor cogent.

I was speaking with a friend. Another son of a SAC pilot. He told me of Nietzsche’s red pill/blue pill association. He implied he Wachowskis’ merely ripped off Nietzsche with the red blue pill metaphor.

So would Nietzsche take the red pill or the blue pill?

Anonymous
Anonymous
January 16, 2018 7:06 pm

This music vid seems to show the connection felt by loved ones when someone close to the soul, but physically elsewhere experiences major pain. We’ve all heard the stories of separated twins, where one feels discomfort at the moment the other is going through something difficult, even though miles apart.
My old man was on a ladder at work when my 2 older bros were in a horrific auto crash. Pops felt a wave of uneasiness, and had to come down off the rungs, and try & let the queasy feeling pass. Too dark, to go into what eventually happened to the eldest bro who was driving the vehicle. Suffice to say it was the beginning of his downfall, never to fully recover.
Coincidence? Not sure what is was, but something connects us, unseen, but felt.
Anybody else have that happen?
Meantime, this is in response to RiNS and the Metallica tune.
The end message is rise above any pain and doubt; a decent hard rock song.

yahsure
yahsure
January 16, 2018 9:25 pm

God and the bible are good guides for living. if you don’t believe me, just look round at all the people acting like dicks. They have no moral compass. I have taught my children that they have to watch out for these messed up people.They already have seen it in school.before I even mentioned it.