Senate Introduces Bill Intended to Displace U.S. Tech Workers

Guest Post by Joe Guzzardi

In one of his final official acts before retiring, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) introduced the Immigration Innovation Act of 2018 that would increase the annual H-1B quota from the current 85,000 up to as many as 195,000. Cosponsored by lame duck Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ), the bill would also allow H-1B visa holders’ spouses and children to work, a provision that President Obama’s 2015 executive order granted, and which the Department of Security is re-evaluating with an eye toward ending.

The press release that announced the Hatch-Flake legislation, also referred to as I-Squared and a nonstarter in the two previous Congresses, is watered down with touchy-feely language, but the end goal is obvious: fewer jobs for American tech workers and more imported overseas labor.

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These well-worn, purposely misleading statements were scattered throughout the senators’ jointly released statement to the press. Among them were that thousands more visas are “vital to maintaining United States competitiveness in a global economy,” “a shortage of American workers” and “now more than ever we need highly qualified workers….” Brazenly, the press release carried endorsements from Silicon Valley’s captains of industry like Microsoft and Facebook that profit from the cheap labor H-1B visa holders provide.

But displaced, highly skilled American tech workers tell a different, more compelling story than the congressional boiler plate pap. Craig Diangelo worked at Connecticut-based Northeast Utilities. Like many of his fired IT peers nationwide, his severance package was contingent on him training his H-1B replacement. The indifference Congress has consistently shown to laid-off Americans who must, often for the first time in their lives, rely on unemployment insurance to survive propelled Diangelo to become a 2018 House of Representatives candidate in Connecticut’s 5th District.

Liberal and progressive-leaning analysts have provided substantial, fact-based evidence which proves that, despite congressional and industry claims to the contrary, no shortage of qualified American workers exists.

In 2016, Howard University associate public policy professor Dr. Ron Hira, and author of “Outsourcing America: What’s Behind our National Crisis and How We Can Reclaim American Jobs,” told the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration and the National Interest that IT employers who hire H-1B visa workers generate substantially higher profit margins. Replacing Americans workers with H-1Bs is, added Hira, easily done, and leads to an insatiable corporate appetite for more foreign labor. 

The media has taken a hard look at the alleged tech shortage, and concluded that it’s hyped. In its April 2017 story, The Boston Globe exposed many tech industry claims about shortages as either false or deceptive. Among its most critical findings, The Globe wrote that tech companies are prolific job-cutters. Challenger Gray & Christmas, Inc., a job-search firm that compiles workforce reduction data, found that technology companies have cut more than 413,000 jobs since 2012, including more than 96,000 in 2016. Wages, an important variable in measuring job shortages, have been flat for years, a clear indication that a domestic labor supply is abundant.

A Los Angeles Times op-ed that commented on Hatch’s 2015 I-Squared bill, “Tech Industry’s Persistent Claim of Worker Shortage May Be Phony,” wrote about the mismatch between Silicon Valley’s “plea to import more high tech workers and its efforts to downsize its existing payroll….” The goal, concluded the Times, is to replace an older, more experienced, but more expensive domestic [American] workforce.”

Finally, an in-depth General Accountability Office review of H-1B wages determined that most visa recipients fall outside of the highest pay scale – the “fully competent” level. In other words, the H-1Bs aren’t what Hatch and Flake referred to in their release as the “best and brightest.”

For more than 35 years, the H-1B has profited corporations while inflicting emotional and financial burdens on Americans who have lost their jobs because of the visa. Since the Hatch-Flake bill would be more of the same shameless disregard for U.S. workers, the Senate Judiciary Committee, where the bill awaits a vote, should kill it.

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67 Comments
Centurion44
Centurion44
February 3, 2018 12:37 pm

NFW!!!

credit
credit
February 3, 2018 1:15 pm

so 2 guys leaving office sponsor anti-citizen job legislation as a send off…… watch who they go to work for when their terms end.

Boat Guy
Boat Guy
February 3, 2018 1:32 pm

Yep those pesky Americans want toooo much money to do a job so let my company pay ShriLankian wages to a batch of desperate people and we will teach those Americans that don’t want to work .
But don’t let my community turn to shit because of no tax base .
The wealthy elites have overplayed their hands in this poker game . The shit can and will hit the fan . Eventually people will have had enough and the elites may escape to an island somewhere but they will not come back . Those that choose to stay remember you are out numbered and your badge wearing minions will not last long fighting against their own families you have used and tossed away like a Dixie cup .
The your shit is shit but my shit is stuff will end soon and many will be standing there shocked and amazed as they scrounge for a meal amongst the great unwashed . That is if those elites are not on the menu !!
Oh yes my freinds it can happen here !

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Boat Guy
February 3, 2018 1:42 pm

Maybe pesky American consumers just aren’t willing to pay as much as is needed to keep those pesky American employees employed at high salaries.

People may squawk about how unfair foreign worker competition is, but almost all of them will look at the price they pay for their goods and services and make their decision to buy based on that alone instead of where and who made the product or service.

Foreign workers and robots are the only way to satiate their appetite for cheap stuff, not the welfare of their fellow American workers.

KaD
KaD
  Anonymous
February 3, 2018 2:52 pm

This companies aren’t hiring cheap foreigners because they aren’t making a profit, they’re doing it because their greed has no limits.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  KaD
February 3, 2018 10:53 pm

KaD – tech is not hiring cheap workers. Check out the actual stats, not invented facts. The link is below.

TampaRed
TampaRed
  Anonymous
February 3, 2018 3:39 pm

walmart & harbor freight,here i come–

starfcker
starfcker
  Anonymous
February 3, 2018 9:26 pm

Fuck you, anon. You’re a dirtbag

doug
doug
February 3, 2018 3:03 pm

What kind of no good politicians would Hatch such a Flakey Bill……….. couldn’t help myself.

Stucky
Stucky
February 3, 2018 3:03 pm

If IT folks got paid in food …

— an American wants one filet mignon per hour

— a dot head will work all day for a bowl of Ramen Noodles

India. Loathsome country. Even more loathsome cultural beliefs. But, hey, WTF …. let’s import another million. What could go wrong? Well, we should have picked our own cotton. We should write our own code! See what I did there?

TampaRed
TampaRed
  Stucky
February 3, 2018 3:46 pm

funny that this came up today stucky and you mentioned india–
india is becoming so aggressively anti christian that some of the big guns in evangelical circles are waking up and pushing back–
if churches start pushing back by advocating for less trade with and immigration from india then the republicans will be in a serious bind,their financial backers will be in conflict with a good portion of their base–

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 3, 2018 6:47 pm

Stuck – if you think the dot heads are working for peanuts at Facebook, you are greatly mistaken. And if you think they are not extremely talented, you are mistaken. They best are being recruited, wherever they can be found.

The best and brightest are what the country needs.

EL Coyote
EL Coyote
February 3, 2018 4:12 pm

Somebody said that a crisis is an opportunity too good to waste. It’s not unique to Rahm. A cynical outlook will help you understand that a government that would use Hispanics to gain office and then fail to deliver on immigration reform is a government that will fail to come across on other promises.

Instead, they will use the opportunity presented by the dreamers protesting (it was Obama who urged them to protest, perhaps he knew they would give the government this wonderful opportunity) to push through legislation that will benefit them.

We see here that the so-called immigration innovation act benefits the rich at the expense of the poor. Yet it will be sold to Hispanics on the basis of a very few shit green-cards and it will be sold to whites on the basis of ‘limited’ legalization, then they will essentially smuggle in a slew of Indians and Chinese that nobody protested for. Everybody wins. Yay.

Wip
Wip
  EL Coyote
February 4, 2018 11:07 am

I’m surprised no one has replied to your comment. That is some twisted thinking sooooo, certainly is not out of the question for the snakes in DC.

kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon and I-LUV-CO2
kokoda the Deplorable Raccoon and I-LUV-CO2
February 3, 2018 4:16 pm

The travesty that happened to Craig Diangelo also happened to my neighbor across the street, who eventually could not find another similar job which led to a divorce. This wonderful company is Pfizer.

Corporatism

These fucking politicians are scum.

Done in Dallas
Done in Dallas
February 3, 2018 6:35 pm

I work IT in Dallas. Our small company was bought by a multi national a couple of years ago. When we have tried to hire entry level positions, the only resumes you get are Indian masters students. You have to scrutinize them in the interview. 1 in 20 aren’t bad the rest can’t write you a for loop. They come here and ride on the backs of stronger students on group projects.

Thanks to all of this, you go into the Costco in West Plano and are likely the only white person there.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Done in Dallas
February 3, 2018 6:45 pm

Done – that is the point I am making. The vast majority of techies are not good. The ones that are get snapped up, and demand far exceeds supply, hence the gigantic salaries on offer at the major tech firms.

Llpoh
Llpoh
February 3, 2018 6:43 pm

The stupidity here, it burns. You clowns commenting have zero idea what the fuck you are talking about.

I am intimately familiar with the big tech companies and their recruiting overseas. Why do they do it? Because they get cheaper labor? Fuck no.

They do it because they need very highly skilled software engineers and coders. And they pay out the ass for them. No matter where they are from. The going rate at Facebook, Google, etc., for one of those guys would be around $250k, no matter where they are from.

They reality is that the vast majority of engineers/coders in the US are not good. They are simply not good. A good engineer/coder is worth a gazillion average ones. That is why the big boys pay so much. They do not want average. Average is totally worthless to them.

If the US can bring in 195,000 top software engineers, then boy howdy, they need to do it. Those types will add serious value to the US economy, make no mistake. They will have IQs on average above 135 or so, and will kick ass.

Every nation – every nation on earth – should be trying to recruit folks like that into their economies. If the US can get a couple hundred thousand of them, it would be a bonanza. The US workers who you think are losing out are not – if they were really good, and were high-skilled, they would already be working and raking it in. Those not so good engineers and coders will not be hired by Facebook or Google, no matter what. They have zero value to them.

I know some young folks just hired into the big boys. They are Aussies. They are getting paid around $300k US, on H-1Bs. They US is damn lucky to be getting them.

The big corps keep recruiters looking for talent full time. They all have full time recruiters in Australia looking full time for too notch talent. Also in India, etc., but despite the numbers of people, India produces few top notch engineers.

You folks really should know what you are talking about before you spout off.

To repeat, the US should take every damn high performing techy they can find, because there is a need for them. They are not taking jobs, but are actually creating them, and very high value ones at that. That is something you folks simply cannot get through your heads.

The calibre of techies I am talking about are equivalent to those from MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, etc. If a techie is not of that calibre, they cannot get the jobs on offer. Only the best need apply. The screening process is brutal, quick, and efficient. They give the applicants a range of problems, and the applicant must be able to create the algorythms. Cannot do it?, (almost none can), and so sorry, next!

Note: around 40% of H-1Bs are tech jobs. No idea about the rest.

TC
TC
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 8:48 pm

Sorry, LLPOH, I respect your opinion on manufacturing, but you don’t know shit about the tech business. I’ve worked with several dozen H1Bs, and out of that whole bunch, there was only 1 that was worth a damn. The teams the big companies put together in India and China aren’t because they are smart or cheap, it’s because the companies have to have a significant presence in those places in order to sell their product in those countries. I’ve been on multiple teams with groups in India and China, and they just don’t get it done. In every single case we’ve had a team over there, we had an almost equal size team here to fix their fuckups.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  TC
February 3, 2018 9:05 pm

TC – you would be amazed what I know. I have recently gained a lot of knowledge, and have witnessed this play out with a number of young folks I know. I have been involved in advising re negotiations and contract reviews, etc., for these young folks. The salaries and bennies they are commanding are eye-popping. The testing they go through is brutal. The numbers tested are high, those passing few indeed. Then comes the interviews, long and arduous.

You can click the link and search for yourself what the major players are paying. There recruitment processes are honed, and they do not take buffoons.

By memory, you were talking about your position and how high paying jobs are not available. If you were top notch, you could yourself be commanding a huge salary. The demand at the top is incredible.

As I said, just search Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Amazon, Uber,etc., to see what they are paying H-1Bs for software engineers. The average software engineer salary in the US is $104k. Those guys are paying around $140k plus bonus and stock, etc. and they bring the average up considerably.

You may be in contact with H-1Bs for the wannabees. But the big fellas are serious, and they are getting quality people.

TC
TC
  Llpoh
February 4, 2018 10:28 am

You’ve cherry picked a handful of entries out millions of jobs. If you go to your own site you linked and select “Highest Paid” column, then find the highest paid software category with a decent sample size at #27, “Principal Software Engineer”. They list $134k as the average. I can tell you that’s significantly less salary than the American Principal Software Engineers I know. Don’t take my word for it, go on glassdoor.com and search for Principal Software Engineer.

Also, if you flip around the search, you see there’s a hell of a lot of H1B software jobs under $70k. That’s where most of these H1Bs are employed.

Done in Dallas
Done in Dallas
  TC
February 5, 2018 1:02 pm

Yup. $140K is the high end unless you are working in NYC doing trading software or you are out on the left coast.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 9:30 pm

That’s bullshit Llpoh. The easy way to enforce that is to put a minimum pay level on H1b’s. Then we would get the best. And we wouldn’t need quotas. And boy, they sure don’t want to do that

Llpoh
Llpoh
  starfcker
February 3, 2018 10:43 pm

Star – there are minimums. Buy a vowel, get a clue.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 9:56 pm

Llpoh, is what you are saying, that we should organize our society around the wants of a few tech oligarchs? Fuck that

Llpoh
Llpoh
  starfcker
February 3, 2018 10:45 pm

Star – the US should welcome the best and brightest in any field. It would benefit everyone. High tech giants are the ones recruiting such. If you do not alllow it, they will simply hire them but employ them offshore.

So your absurd position is to deny them that which they need, so as to force them iffshore.

Fuck that. That defines stupid.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 10:52 pm

I like borders. We don’t owe anybody anything. If Bill Gates can’t find enough talent here, maybe he’ll stop using his money to keep fucking up our education system. Black girls who code, one of his favorite little charity things, that’s a hoot. The entire tech sector is ripe for antitrust. At a certain point, it starts gobbling up everything in its path like concentrated power always does. I’m a fan of the robber barons, look at all the good they did for our country. Doesn’t mean we didn’t have to take them down a notch at a certain point. These guys are next, same thing. Some of the greatest people we’ve ever produced. But we don’t do kings here.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  starfcker
February 3, 2018 10:58 pm

I like winners. I like the best and brightest. I like companies keeping jobs in the US and Australia, and I like stealing the best and brightest from our competition. I like giving companies incentive to keep jobs at home rather than sending them offshore.

Gates and co. will simply send the jobs overseas. Antitrust is not something that works well when a company can simply relocate overseas if you stifle them locally. It is now a global market, unlike the days of the robber barons. The game has changed.

We may not do kings here, but the rest of the world does. The world as we knew it has changed forever. You, and I, can get on board, or fall ove board. There is no going back.

If there were enough best and brightest here, there would be no H-1Bs. Take a look at the wages they get. They are not cheap, no matter what the narrative being presented. Us that link, type in LinkedIn, Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc. and see what they are paying those people. It is a fortune. They could easily get 1000s of Americans for those salaries. They just would not be very good.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 11:13 pm

I like the best and brightest too. And I love competition. But I also love my country. Globalization, can be a great thing, or it can be shit. It’s not a question of going back to anything. It’s simply how do we protect what we’ve built, the greatest and most prosperous society in the world. It’s worth protecting, we’ve got a guy in place now that looks like that’s what he intends to do. We will still interact with the world, and hopefully in largely positive ways. But the unchecked abuse of my fellow Americans is going to stop, it looks like. And not a moment too soon. You keep saying, when companies can just go overseas. If we enforce our border a little bit, there will be consequences to some of those options. Go back a couple years and look at some of our arguments on this forum. The multinationals certainly are not behaving in the ways that you predicted. A better domestic environment and the threats of a little whack on the knuckles, has got them thinking about where they want to be, and that’s a good thing for all of us

starfcker
starfcker
  starfcker
February 3, 2018 10:47 pm

And think about this. A couple of Aussie kids did good in school, had the right aptitude, and yet, in Australia, that don’t mean squat. If we didn’t let them come here, they aren’t making those fat paychecks. You have it backwards. They are the ones who should be thankful.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  starfcker
February 3, 2018 10:50 pm

They are thankful. And Australia’s loss is the US’s gain. Australia is screwing up by not promoting tech so as to retain these kids.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 10:54 pm

Stop it. As usual, we can’t get too far into one of these things before we start agreeing on stuff. So much for the shitfest

Llpoh
Llpoh
  starfcker
February 3, 2018 11:08 pm

Star – we are generally pretty close. The detail is where the fights happen. The Burning Platform way.

Really, take a look at the link. It is an eye opener.

BTW – it pisses me off to lose those kids to the US. I cannot blame them, though. The big tech companies are paying them a damn fortune. And they fight over them.

They feed them every day, lunch and dinner, provide them bennies, stock, unlimited annual vacation and sick leave (you read that right -UNLIMITED vacation each year!). Stock and stock options and bonuses and relocation money and two months in a hotel all expenses paid and business class flights and oh my! It is impossible to tell them what else to ask for – they are given everything imaginable.

These kids are doing well in Australia – but get four or five times more to work for Google or Facebook. It is mind blowing.

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 11:15 pm

There has never been a time ever as good to be smart and motivated. Not that there has ever been a bad time. But the opportunity out there right now is unbelievable

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 11:19 pm

Star – you are absolutely right. If a young person is bright, goes into a good field, works hard, etc., the world is at their feet. Man, wish it were so when I was coming through. I was a bit too late and a bit too early. And stupidly, owing to economic circumstances, chose manufacturing instead of the plum computer consulting role I was offered (the mfg jib started immediately, the computer consulting a few months later, and I needed to,work immediately. I knew computers were a better choice, but I had to survive. )

starfcker
starfcker
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 11:48 pm

“Man, wish it were so when I was coming through”. Funny, I almost wrote the exact same thing. I can’t imagine being 20 years old and having smartphones to operate on.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
February 4, 2018 8:16 am

“I am intimately familiar with the big tech companies and their recruiting overseas. ” — Llpoh

“I have recently gained a lot of knowledge …”

Congrats on being intimately familiar with IT pay structures despite you acquiring that knowledge only just recently . You’re a fast learner.

————

“And they pay out the ass for them. …. The going rate at Facebook, Google, etc., for one of those guys would be around $250k, no matter where they are from.” — Llpoh

You are wrong. You’re not wrong about “Facebook, Google, etc.” paying such salaries, but they are the exception,not the rule! You are wrong for implying that such a high salary is the norm in that industry. It is not. Here’s the fact;

“A U.S. tech industry worker averages an annual wage of $105,400 compared to $51,600 for the average private sector wage.

Source: https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/2016/03/01/u.s.-tech-industry-employment-surpasses-6.7-million-workers

——————-

“They reality is that the vast majority of engineers/coders in the US are not good. They are simply not good.”

Is that a fact? How do you know this? There are 6.7 MILLION people in the tech industry in the USA (same source as above). I suppose you have an intimate knowledge of at least 4 million of these folks (you know, a vast majority)? Kind of sad, really, that you find it necessary to consider so many American IT workers as idiots.

——————-

“Why do they do it? Because they get cheaper labor? Fuck no.”

Utterly. Fucking. Ridiculous.

Unlike yourself, my actual intimate knowledge of that industry is not recent. I was Director Of Sales for this company; https://www.solix.com

I was one of just a handful of white American employees. The rest were dots, imported directly from Infia ….. anywhere from 200 – 400 of them (depending on the number of consulting contracts my sales team closed). Did we close deals because Indian Dots were so damned much smarter than their American counterparts? No! Hell no!! It was ALWAYS about the $$$$$ … sometimes undercutting American based IT Consulting Firms by as much as 60%. Stop trying to convince us it’s not about the money, cuz that’s just fucking insane.

Wip
Wip
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 11:23 am

Stucky

I didn’t know you were in sales. I thought you were an IT guru of some sort.

I have questions for you about sales and marketing. If you are willing to help (or just answer some questions as a way of giving back), Jim has my email.

Have you heard of S.C.O.R.E.? https://www.score.org/

Stucky
Stucky
  Wip
February 4, 2018 9:29 pm

My IT career was basically a 50/50 split … half my time in the technical side, then I moved into sales.

Never heard of SCORE. Looks interesting.

Feel free to email me at. [email protected] Give me a heads up here when you email me, as I don’t check it all that often

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 9:34 pm

Well, at least half your time was valuable!?

I kicked your ass below, you gigantor. Had to get a ladder, but it was worth the research.

Wip
Wip
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 11:03 pm

Thanks, I’ll be in touch I think. I’ll have to get my thoughts together on how I might be able to tap your brain.

Stucky
Stucky
  Wip
February 5, 2018 7:53 am

Ok, Wip, I’d be delighted to share my thoughts when you’re ready.

You said sales & marketing. Just be aware I was only ever involved in Sales ….. and never in Marketing.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 5, 2018 8:30 am

Thank god. Sales is a great profession. Marketing is the work of the devil, with no value whatsoever.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 1:14 pm

Stuck – I posted facts and figures and the site where to get the info.

You have been out of the field for ages. Further, I was specific about it being big tech wages. Further, there are legal minimums on what the H-1Bs can be paid.

Look that shit up yourself. Your info is old as the dionsaurs.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
February 4, 2018 10:15 pm

Well, I posted facts and figures also …. from CompTIA … which is a reliable source

“The Computing Technology Industry Association (CompTIA), a non-profit trade association, issues professional certifications for the information technology (IT) industry. It is considered one of the IT industry’s top trade associations.”

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 5:06 pm

Stuck – here is the H-1B on Solix last few years. Hardly do they use “hundreds” it seems. And they pay well, too! Imagine that!

4 employed in 2017 at $103k each
1 in 2016 at $60k
2 in 2015 at $74k
3 in 2014 at $107k

Yep, I am all about the numbers. I am all about the data. I am all about the facts. I am the guy that offsets the bullshit narrative you folks produce day after day.

I can smell bullshit a mile away. I am a goddamn savant with numbers.

Your Solix claims were bullshit. These are the facts. An average of 2.5 H-1Bs a year since 2014 at an average salary of Around $95k.

Yep, they sure are bargain hunting in large numbers. Not.

Get back to me when you actually have some data. Here is the link with the facts:

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Solix-Technologies/850136.htm

Minimum H-1B wage is increasing to $90k. Current minimum for software developers starts at over $100k. And goes up from there.

Is it less than what a comparable US would command? Possibly. But is it cheap? No. So, it is quite possible the dotheads are better than the Americans available.

And you did not address the issue of what the companies will due if you restrict their access to resources, which is move to where the resources are.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
February 4, 2018 10:06 pm

“I can smell bullshit a mile away. I am a goddamn savant with numbers. Your Solix claims were bullshit.”

I have never called YOU a liar … and jumped on people who said such things to you. But, you find it necessary to call me a liar?

Did you even look at the software they write? Analytics and data mining to interface with major ERPs, such as SAP. You think that can be done with just a couple employees.

I handled sales for everything east of the Mississippi. My office was in Chicago … hell, we had a shitload of consultants just at Sears and Magnavox. My other office was in Hackensack.

Solid is kind of an umbrella company. There was an iSolix, eSolix, Solix Group, and many others. Why? Fuck if I know. I think the owners were playing fast and fancy with their assets.

For example, Google in “Emagia Corporation”. Right there on the first page you’ll find this;

Headquarters: Santa Clara, CA
Founder: Veena Gundavelli
Parent organization: Solix Technologies Ltd

I’d respond to your other points … but, since I’m just a Fucken bullshitter, I won’t waste your time.

Rdawg the fascist
Rdawg the fascist
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 10:09 pm

WTF? He never called you a liar.

Stucky
Stucky
  Rdawg the fascist
February 4, 2018 10:28 pm

You’re splitting hairs.

He said my claims about Solix were “bullshit”.

Rdawg the fascist
Rdawg the fascist
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 10:34 pm

Not splitting hairs.

Words mean things.

Saying your claim is bullshit means your data is incorrect, which is not the same as saying you were intentionally misleading.

By the way, when you said comment #200 would get your copy of the Satanic Bible, but you failed to deliver, was that a lie?

Rdawg the fascist
Rdawg the fascist
  Stucky
February 5, 2018 12:09 am

How odd you didn’t answer about the Satanic Bible.

Stucky
Stucky
  Rdawg the fascist
February 5, 2018 8:01 am

“By the way, when you said comment #200 would get your copy of the Satanic Bible, but you failed to deliver, was that a lie?” —— Rdawg

“How odd you didn’t answer about the Satanic Bible.’ —-Rdawg

Oh, please, stop it.

Many times myself, and other folks, offer “prizes” if certain milestones are met … and no one takes them seriously. Why? Cuz it’s just a joke.

BTW, I did attempt to read the Satanic Bible once …. many many moons ago. I might have made it to about 50 pages. It’s ridiculously bad writing!

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 10:30 pm

Bullshit is not lying. It is being wrong. It is defined as stupid or untrue statements. I do not think you lie. Lying involves intent. Bullshit does not.

I have been taking shit everywhere. I am sick of it. This place is steadily drifting from a site that is fact based to one of agendas and fake news.

My apologies if you think I called you a liar. I would be loathe to do that.

Btw – never said Solix only has a couple employees. Said they have hired very few employees on H1B since 2014. 10 to be precise.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
February 4, 2018 10:55 pm

Ok, Llpoh. It’s all good.

The owners of Solix lie about everything. As do others. In fact, dots lie whenever it suits their purposes. At least that has been my general experience, and I’ve known hundreds. They don’t hold the principles YOU have espoused here. I’m sure that’s one reason I don’t want to see more of them come here.

But, fuck if I know. You are absolutely correct. I have been out of that industry a long time now.

Rdawg the fascist
Rdawg the fascist
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 11:02 pm

Sarcasm is a piss-poor argument.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
February 4, 2018 11:37 pm

Stuck – said much the same elsewhere. People will cheat. Castrate them if they do. Laws need to be uheeld, or canceelled. But not ignoored.

Llpoh
Llpoh
February 3, 2018 7:23 pm

Here is a search engine where you can search company H-1B records:

http://theyear2000.ctf.bsidessf.net

Read ’em and weep, you dumbasses. Sorry the facts contradict your narratives, you closed minded buffoons.

Vodka
Vodka
February 3, 2018 7:27 pm

I am not against the H1B’s who will add true value, but $250k in the Bay Area would only get them an efficiency apartment with a diet of ramen noodles. The corporations are out of control in their exploitation of workers. Fact. And I know how you want only ‘facts’ in your objective analysis, Llpoh.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Vodka
February 3, 2018 7:36 pm

Vodka – even in the Bay area, $250k would be ok. A good apartment would be say $4 or 5k per month. The average for a one bed is around $3500. Even with CA taxes, etc., you could live very well in SF on $250k. That is the facts on that, but $250k base is very unusual.

Most software engineers would get around $150k base plus a bonus of say $40k, cash and or stock, plus stock of around $100k, in SF at say Facebook. $150k base would be like $100k most anywhere else, so liveable, but not extremely comfy. The other payments would create a nice nest egg going forward, though.

A lot of tech jobs in Seattle, Austin, NY, etc. SF area is a major area, but there are many others.

Vodka
Vodka
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 8:36 pm

I would guess you’re understating how expensive the Bay area is. Here is a quick anecdote: My wife’s cousin is a big shot at Chipotle. When she transferred from S.F. to Manhattan she couldn’t stop exclaiming about how much better she could live with the same income. That tells you how over-priced these ‘tech’ areas are.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Vodka
February 3, 2018 8:56 pm

Vodka – SF is brutally expensive. As I said, take $50k off the base salary to get a relative picture of the city vs city.

A recent article on this said it was actually $35k – you need $35k more in SF than in say Seattle to be equivalent, and by memory around $20k more to be equivalent to NY.

TampaRed
TampaRed
February 3, 2018 8:27 pm

llpoh,
was craig diangelo telling the truth?
was the disney guy a few years ago who claimed to have had to train an immigrant who replaced him telling the truth?
if true,how do we stop it or is it an acceptable practice?

Llpoh
Llpoh
  TampaRed
February 3, 2018 8:54 pm

Tampa – there will be abuse of anything. It is a given. It is always thus. I have zero doubt it happens.

But take a look at the link I posted where you can search on individual employers and what they pay those on H-1Bs. Check out Microsoft, Facebook, etc., and see what they pay software engineers. Those H-1B folks are getting very well paid.

As I said, the issue is that there is a serious need for high end techies. Those guys can, and do, command big salaries. And there are not nearly enough top end folks available in the US to fill the need. Average folks are worth nothing, as they are more a hindrance than a help, their work requires enormous supervision, and errors in software design or code are not easy to catch. Hence why the very best are needed.

Why would the US not want every high-skilled, 130+ IQ worker it can get its hands on? The benefits flow through tonthe entire economy.

Yes, there will be abuses. Address the abuses, castrate the offenders, but do not starve your high tech industries of the resources they need. Trying to force Microsoft to take average workers will not work. They will simply set up more offshore operations. And that sucks for the US. They need what they need. They need the very best, and are willing to pay for it.

Wip
Wip
  Llpoh
February 3, 2018 11:21 pm

LLPOH

I’m going to stalk you if I have to to get you to answer these two questions. Not that you won’t answer them it’s just that you may not come back here.

1) how well are software testers paid? I went to a seminar given by a tech school just today. They said software testers who know what they are doing command $130k with benefits with 3 months education. Sounds a bit farfetched to me but I will be attending the first week of the class since they offer the first week free.
2) how do software engineers add huge benefit to the economy if automation improvements eliminate jobs.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Wip
February 4, 2018 12:28 am

Wip – software testers I do not know. I do know that Microsoft tests millions upon millions of hours. I would have thought they would use programmers and engineers to do it, but I have no real idea about it. If I remember I will ask around.

2) re automation, it is coming, no matter what. Hopefully, something will take the place of manual labor, but I do not know what. But I do know the countries developing that tech, as opposed to just absorbing the affects of it (ie those doing the development of the automating as opposed to just getting automated) will be far better off. I would rather have all the best software engineers and developers at work in our countries rather than see them at work in other countries. That would indeed have to suck. The middle class are screwed one way or another, but there is still a chance of having a fairly large upper middle or lower upper class, if there are enough talented and productive individuals. That is what I wuld try and promote, if I were king.

The middle classes are screwed, and I see no way out for them. They are simply not going to be good enough to compete in tech, where the top performers are infinitely more valuable than the average, and high paying manufacturing jobs are gone for good.

If there are enough high middle and low upper, then there will be flow throughs to the rest. It will not be pretty, but it will be better than starving. Same as it ever was.

anon
anon
February 3, 2018 9:36 pm

WOW! One last hurrah for Orrin!

Why stop at 195,000? Why not have an UNLIMITED H1B program?

Is that too much? Are these H1B techies the best and brightest?

Maybe. Maybe not.

The truth is not all of them go to the biggest tech firms. Most of them invade small business and take away opportunities from the domestic labor pool.

Who gets a better deal?

A foreigner who spent on average under $10K for his TOTAL education and gets a USA job or a USA domestic person who probably had to take on average $40K in student loans for their education.

Let’s also not forget about “diversity” and “affirmative action” quotas and their impact on opportunities for the USA domestic workforce.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  anon
February 3, 2018 10:48 pm

anon – you miss the point. Many of the openings will go unfilled. The quality of applicants is not high enough to fill with US grads. That they have computer degrees is insufficient. They need to be really good at what they do. Most people are not. So either you let companies bring employees in, or the jobs will go overseas in many instances. That is very bad. Very bad indeed.