By Doug “Uncola” Lynn via TheBurningPlatform.com
When I was in high school we had an English teacher who had the kids carry the ring of a toilet seat to the bathroom instead of asking him for a hall pass. Although this took place before the selfie and social media days, it was mentioned in passing as a humorous anecdote in a story printed in the school newsletter. In turn, it was picked up by the city paper, then a regional publication, and by the time the “story” hit the national news, it had been twisted into the teacher forcing the students into wearing the toilet seat around their necks.
That was my first personal experience with hot air expanding up through the media stratosphere before, quite unscientifically, converting into bullshit raining down from on high. It was like watching a game of “telephone”, whereby one media representative whispered “truth” into the earpiece of another, and onward up the line, until the national media was shouting “child abuse” through their collective bullhorns. Although each media outlet should have individually vetted the story they, instead, repeated the error of an earlier source.
Indeed, there are many reasons why lies travel around the world twice as the truth ties its shoes. When searching for veracity in a world of deception, it’s like a wind forever blowing in our faces. Fighting that gale is comparable to swimming the breast-stroke against a raging rapids, or rock-climbing in a bad hailstorm without a helmet: We get nowhere fast and end up with a thundering headache.
We stand at the edge of the abyss, at one-minute to midnight, in the black of a storm. Pummeled by crosswinds of lies, we hear the sounds of war drums in the distance as the roar of economic uncertainty, and waves of debt and currency fluctuations pound the shoreline all around.
Trump’s “smart missile” tweet to Russia was beyond bizarre. Either he’s lost his mind, is under severe duress, or he’s implementing multi-level strategies in unseen dimensions. In any event, the man is surrounded in ways that would make Custer’s skeleton tremble in the grave.
Either Trump is who he claims to be, or he is not. It’s Occam’s Razor versus nothing is as it seems. It’s hard knowing what to believe.
Earlier this week, upon the recommendation of a friend, I saw an afternoon matinee of “Paul, The Apostle of Christ (2018). Entering the theater with low expectations, I soon found the film to be far superior than some of the campy, low-budget Christian films I’ve seen in the past. The story takes place just prior to Paul’s martyrdom in Rome; which was a very dangerous time for the Christians who were hiding there.
After a fire consumed the city, the emperor Nero conveniently, and for purposes of political expediency, blamed the followers of Christ, using them as burning lamps to light his streets, to feed the exotic animals in his coliseum, and as scapegoats to appease the insatiable and ravenous raging of the plebs. Just like today, the powerful patricians in 66 AD established the narratives, administered selective injustice, and satisfied the commoners with bread and circuses.
In truth, I attended the movie looking for answers and ended up being challenged more than anything else. The film commemorated the Apostle Paul, Luke the gospel writer and physician, and other dedicated disciples, as choosing compassion over revenge, forbearance over impetuosity, and love over hate. In fact, when a group of young Christians wanted to take up arms against their oppressors, their elder leader told them that, in doing so, they would be forsaking the faith. Later, in rebellion, when the young fighters brashly stormed the prison, killed a guard, and found Paul and Luke in order to set them free, the prisoners denied the young warriors their glory, chastised them, and sent them away forlorn and disillusioned.
Although some of the events in the film were not expressly delineated in the Biblical canon, it is a fact that many early Christians, as well as those throughout history, chose to love and help those who hated them; in spite of being persecuted, falsely accused, and wrongly imprisoned. More than that, they submitted unto death believing it was God’s will.
As I watched “Paul, The Apostle of Christ”, I wondered if it might have been released as a psyop by the Dark Powers; as a means to trick guys like me into embracing the futility of physically fighting and, thus for God’s sake, surrendering my worldly dreams of liberty, justice, and revenge.
Nevertheless, we name our children Paul and Luke and our dogs Caesar and Nero today.
How did that happen? By the way of love?
Recently, in the thread of another blog post there was a discussion of Martin Luther and the Reformation, whereupon one of the commenters made mention of the Lutheran Augsburg Confession. Paradoxically, that document was created upon the request of the Roman Catholic Emperor Charles V, who desired to unite the divided Christians of that day in order to wage war on the invading Turks.
So I ask this now of Christians and non-Christians alike: Should we love our enemies or slay them? Which is right and how can one know for sure?
The paradox is that Christianity can only be passed down thru defensive diligence and to do otherwise is to deny our progeny the blessings of Western Civilization thru Christ, because if not for the Christian faith there would be no Rights of Englishmen thus no modern Western society wherein all currently enjoy some semblance of God given free-will.
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Although I am not a Christian, and have no more (and no less) use for the Christian bible than I do for Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, I have observed that violence begets violence, and vengeance begets vengeance. An eye for an eye begets a blind planet.
That said, if I were to be rounded up and put into a concentration camp, I would not feel any particular obligation to abide by the demands of my captors; if I knew that a very violent rescue operation was on its way, I do not think that I would be particularly inclined to try to stop it, or mitigate it, beyond making sure that my fellow captives did not themselves suffer harm.
However, having said *that*, I would also look to see what good I could do while there. I have come across some stories of Jewish captives having made friends with the people running their particular camp, and winning better treatment for everyone.
I suppose I would say that the bottom line for me is that I would seek to do what good I can in any particular situation, and minimize the harm done.
Cucks like you make tyranny possible. We sleep peacefully at night because amongst our ancestors were men who neither bowed nor demanded subjugation. Thank God for those men.
Then go forth. Ravage and rage and whine. Children like you make the end of humanity probable.
how about the old testament? Are you down with the Ten Commandments?
Whine? That’s extreme in a purposeful way .
By all means. lead the way , cucklin .
“Cucks like you make tyranny possible. ” ———- flash
So when Jesus commands to “turn your other cheek also”, or to “Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you” —— then, by your definition, Jesus is a cuck also. Right?
I gave you a thumbs up, Mousanony! You may not be a Christian, but you certainly grasp the essence of Jesus’ teaching.
Jesus also said buy a sword , but I’m sure that was just in the unlikely event that one runs out of cheeks. BTW, I gave you only one down vote. If you get thirty more don’t blame me.
“Jesus also said buy a sword ” ——- flash
Yup.
And when Peter cut off his right ear of Malchus (in the Garden of Gethsemane) Jesus told him to put the sword away.
So, there’s that.
I’m not happy when the collection of thumbs down. I’m going to have to threaten to leave TBP if this continues.
Uncola posted a link to an old posting of yours, a long read that was captivating from the very start. “I’m going to threaten to leave the TBP if this continues”????????? I sure as hell hope you say that sarcastically !
“I’m going to threaten to leave the TBP if this continues”????????? I sure as hell hope you say that sarcastically ! ——– ordo ab chao
lol
Not to worry! It’s an inside joke …. I’ve “left” TBP more times than TrumpyPoopyHead leaves his wives. Unlike him, I do always come back. 🙂
Buy and sword, but keep it sheathed. Pretty confusing. Jordan Peterson has an opinion . Does fit your interpretation of self-defense via display of scary sword. Thing is , there are those that have no fear of weapon display, only use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soIyw8aOzdY
I can’t help to think that if early Christians hadn’t defended Europe from Muslim invasions, there would be no Christian faith today , nor western civilization for that matter. I firmly believe, as reams of history will attest, if you can’t defend it, you don’t own it.
Stuck, I you decide to leave and go build you own glorious website on another platform, I hear there’s this great new politcal discussion board start-up called Raging Debate . It’s ran by Jason Rines and he is looking for shit stirring content monkeys to build an audience he can then milk for market share. Have you heard of it ? If not , I think admin can fill you in on the details.
BTW . Just a suggestion, but a double barrel shotgun would be a great avatar for you over there.
I’m not a christian, I’m an atheist. Much of my family is religious, but I saw through it all a long time ago. But, although not religious, I am a devout believer in Western civilization and want to preserve it at all costs. It was founded on christian beliefs, which is fine. I’m not the type that demands ‘god’ be taken off money and other such stupidity, just not a believer myself. But, this faith demands that we roll over and die? ‘Turn the other cheek’ and ‘love your enemy’ are pure madness, especially in this day and age. It sounds all god and noble when you say it, but in reality, its going to be something your enemy uses against you, with a big smile on their faces, as the eradicate you from the earth and turn the societies we have built over the centuries into third world wastelands.
I’m supposed to ‘love my enemy’ when he is trying to remove my children from the earth, or subjegate them in either some sort of communist hell hole (the US) or some kind of sharia/communist amalgamation (not sure how that would work, but both forces are working against whites there)? Thats whats expected of you christians if you follow the faith? What a pussified belief system. This is demanding you surrender your children, property, and country without a fight. What the fuck do you think is going to happen if you do that? Your enemy, cowed and inspired by your pacifist nature, is going to leave you be? Do you believe the lord almighty is going to smite your enemies from the earth? The likelihood of either of those things happening is just about zero. Whats going to happen is your family is going to killed, horribly, in front of you, and you’ll be next. Or, you’ll get killed along with your older male siblings, and your wife and children will face a life of slavery and subjegation and live a miserable and short existence in the hands of savages. But, I’m sure you’ll feel rightous as all this happens.
TL/DR- any white westerner that still follows the pacifist parts of christianity needs their head examined, and is failing his duty to his loved ones.
Christianity ain’t all pacifism, Gator. What about Exodus 21:24. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Ever look at Stucky’s avatar? That’s not a Star of David on his shield.
‘Turn the other cheek’ and ‘love your enemy’ are pure madness, especially in this day and age. ” ———– Gator
Imagine how those listening to Jesus’ teaching must have felt! This loving-your-enemies was, for them, much much worse than it is for us. In fact, such teaching was considered downright scandalous! .
Just fyi … not trying to change your opinion. I respect your decision to choose atheism. Just wanting to give some background. As such, keep these things in mind;
— there was no “New Testament” at the time
— all they had was the Old Testament / Hebrew Scriptures …. where God is portrayed in some rather vengeful ways. There was very little turning of the other cheek. God is love? Can you find that phrase/idea in the OT? Hardly. It was an eye-for-eye world.
— That’s why the parable of The Good Samaritan was one of the most scandalous of all of Jesus’ teachings. Even his apostles had a hard time chewing on that.
— Jesus lived at, or near, the apex of Jewish hatred for the Roman occupation. You could taste the hatred. And don’t kid yourself, if you read between the lines, even the apostles hated the Romans.
—– They wanted to make Jesus (physical) King. He said his kingdom is not of this world.
—– They wanted Jesus to overthrow the Romans. He refused.
—– Rather than do the “right” thing of condemning the Romans, he once said of a Roman Centurion “”I tell you the truth, I haven’t seen faith like this in all Israel!” … a clear slap in the face to all of his followers. He condemned the Pharisees while asking his Father to forgive the Romans who crucified him.
It is in this turbulent highly charged religious-social-political environment where Jesus taught to “love your enemies” …. a far greater scandal back then, than it is now.
That is one of the “miracles” of being born-again … for the ability to do something so unnatural as presenting your other cheek to be slapped is beyond the ability of the “natural” man … “pure madness” as you say.
Yet, here’s the crazy thing. Countless thousands over the millennia since HAVE been able to forgive their enemies and turn the other cheek!
At least that’s what I think the Bible teaches.
Stucky, I think you are dead right to go back to the context of those times.
What better Propaganda Scheme than to turn violent rebellion against Rome into non-violent cheek-turning, heh?
What better way to Control the Masses than to tell them .. no, no.. don’t expect any rewards, or even any JUSTICE here on Earth.. just put all of that off into a (non-existent) afterlife, ruled over by an invisible Father and “Savior”.
And so, for a couple thousand years monarchs and dictators have had the Church, later Churches, tacitly or overtly helping them in parasitically oppressing the peasantry and living large.. a situation which continues to this day.
Christians like my Rapture-Ready sister are taught that earthly authorities are to be obeyed, because it’s God’s will that they are in power. How conveeeenient!
BINGO!!
Love Christ means love truth, justice, the good, and HATE that which is against those ideals.
Coward Christians hide behind the “sermon on the mount” to justify their cowardice. That sermon was to Christ lovers in relationship with other Christ lovers. Never meant as a bromide for all people.
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“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
-George Orwell
“stories of Jewish captives having made friends with the people running their particular camp, and winning better treatment for everyone.”
Sonderkommandos?
Robert (QSLV)
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Stockholm Syndrome.
Are those Armenian Christians dying at the hands of Turkish muslims?
Sure as hell isn’t a true depiction of Dresden.
Dresdeners killed a bunch of rootless cosmopolitans during the Black Death, 1349.
596 years later, the key strategic targets of Dresden, the railyards, were ignored and the civilian population targetted by incendiary bombs, 700K of them.
Hard to tell how many died, being turned to ashes and buried by buildings in the conflagration… but revenge was finally taken.
You are a mouse indeed
I am not a Christian, I try to keep the old Heathen ways, which broke everything down into “us” vs. “Them”. It’s ok to travel to the land of “Them”, talk to “Them”, even learn from “Them”, but the moment “they” threaten us and our way of life, fight them.
That being said, obviously we are not living in Viking times. I would love it if everyone on earth followed the Golden Rule, it is the number one step in engaging with others. However, the moment someone else takes advantage of that kindness, step two is engaged, which is the Go Fuck Yourself Rule.
The truth is, as long as psychopaths and sociopaths exist, there will always be people to prey on the kindness and passivity of others. The only historic way to protect against those types of predators is via the threat of violence.
I do think the movie is a Psyop (having not seen it). I understand that Christianity and modern Western Civilization evolved symbioticly, and I would much rather live surrounded by modern day Christians than muslims. BUT I think this emphasis on meekness and turning the other cheek will only lead to destruction and exploitation.
As Christ taught “love thy enemies” in the days he walked this earth, so should we today. However I believe so many are confused by this command. Every human has a soul, capable of making choices, good or bad, right or wrong, the narrow path or the wide which leads to destruction. Loving anyone does not mean we should love what they do. I believe Christ is talking about love for every person, knowing they have a soul, and, as our God has said hoping that none shall parish.
I try to live by that idea…there are many things that happen around this world, in our own country; heck our own neighborhood, that are “wrong”….unjust or immoral. I “hate” the behavior but I can honestly say I have never made the statement I hate someONE. If you believe in hell and the devil, to want someone to “go to hell” is, in my opinion, the deepest form of hate that could send you to the same place you wish for that person.
The first century Christians weren’t whiny, whimpy, brow-beaten secret keepers of the faith. They were faithful followers that would accept inflctions for the sake of Christ. But make not ill conclusion that these people, and those today, did and will fight for the truth. God used His wrath in correction of those that forsook the commitment they made to Him.
So, no, we don’t just lay down and accept injustice, unrighteousness in the name of “love”. Just as parents do with children; correction, discipline, punishment may hurt, but the love never fades….
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I see what you did there:
http://rvalibrary.org/uncategorized/motel-of-the-mysteries/
I will admit to have never seen that one coming. Another interesting take here:
While I don’t doubt that humanity would survive just fine without America, the notion of ” the rest of the world seems to be getting along pretty well without us” is demonstrably false, and is proven so with a quick perusal of headlines regarding immigration. If they were getting along just fine, as the WaPo writer suggests, we wouldn’t have seemingly endless hordes of third worlders risking life and limb to sneak into western countries. Africa couldn’t support anywhere near its current population without western food aid, money, and medical aid. Absent that, they are well past their Malthusian ceiling. Latin America is in a similar situation, they’d “survive” without us, but not in anything resembling their present form. If they were capable of developing a modern society, they, and Africans, would have done so by now without whitey’s help. And, their people wouldn’t be fighting to get up here to relax in our welfare hammock. This author is being incredibly disingenuous to suggest otherwise if he is, as he seems to be, suggesting that things would carry on pretty much as they are now without the West in its present form.
The washpo article is about the book ‘Motel of the Mysteries’ and it’s author’s view of America
I thought of that book, too. I can’t remember the name, but it has influenced me profoundly in my trust of archeology.
I had never heard of the book, until today. Now I want one.
The definitive Thesis on Christians the Bible and government. Written by Stucky and in the TBP archives.
All need to read and ponder.
How Christianity Allowed Tyranny In America … And How Christians Can Restore Liberty
The TBP classic by Stucky linked here again for purposes of posterity:
Definitive? Hardly!! But, thank you for the kind words. I’ve read my previous posts MAYBE 4 or 5 times in all the years since I’ve been here. I just as soon “write-and-forget” … mostly because I am hardly ever satisfied with my writing. But, I clicked on that one cuz the link was supplied. I didn’t do a bad job on it, but I could have done a lot better, for sure.
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I can’t remember from YoBo’s meme but he has all the great men in a group; John, Paul, George and, uh, is that Hitler?
“…choosing compassion over revenge, forbearance over impetuosity, and love over hate.”
Justice seems to be missing. Compassion says to either become dead or be a footstool.
Slay Them
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“It is a dark day in our nation when high-level authorities will seek to use every method to silence dissent. But something is happening, and people are not going to be silenced.”
Martin Luther King
Hardscrabble plops down on the front seat of the PC buggy. LOL. Stay vigilant, my friend. Good people? Yikes. Let me throw another Edmund Burke quote up. “Nothing is more fatal to religion than indifference.” Pat Buchanan wrote a whole book about it. It’s called “Death of the West.”
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When I was high in school there was this English teacher in Grade 10. She used to claw the chaulkboard cuz she thought she was a cat and us studentz were her mice. Me even then being a fukwit heathen, Hail Odin, joined of course by many moar, decided best course of action would be to meow when she was looking the other way. Or better yet scratch our desks. Yeah it was cruel but that is life. So suck it up buttercups! Besides it seemed like a good idea at the time. Made sense because when there is a whole lot of crazy standing in front of you the best plan is to play games of mind fuck with the flaws.
It always worked Great in skool yard next to the monkey bars.
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And then there is Syria. Now the Q-tippers have been talking fer months about how Trump is playing 16D chess and bullshit like that. It seemed to all bake sense. I thought, goddammit, this Chat Orange is the smartest man in the room. Cuz he was talking to me with his twitter feed.
Not any moar. Trump is a whole lot of crazy scratching the blackboard. Meanwhile Putin sits at back of class laughing his ass off. Cuz that’s all Folks!
Meowing and Scratching!
Meanwhile the rest tune in to the spectacle that ole Don is making of himself. Because like that Teacher, he is still in charge of that football that he has handy.. And still Q speaks of Chess.
BWHAHAHAHA!
That man would confuse the colours playing checkers..
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So back to craaazy teacher. Eventually the short white bus came to school. She ended up with expenses covered and some well deserved R&R in Dartmouth. We didn’t see her again that year…
Meanwhile back in class us shit monkeys, er studentz, got work on the next Mark. Or wuz it John or Paul…
I can’t remember now.
And so it goes on the…..
“As I watched “Paul, The Apostle of Christ”, I wondered if it might have been released as a psyop by the Dark Powers; as a means to trick guys like me into embracing the futility of physically fighting and, thus for God’s sake, surrendering my worldly dreams of liberty, justice, and revenge.”
Yep!
In Odin’s name slay them.
Putin is not laughing.
Yeah right..
you are being wery (w) funny – Putin does not consider Nuclear War to be funny.
I agree, I doubt he thinks any of this is funny. He does seem to be the only leader of a major world power that takes a sober, realistic view of things. Of all the world leaders in the news, he also seems to be the only one that actually likes his country and people, too. He alone has spoken about how truly dangerous our present course is to the world. I can’t imagine being on the other side of the neocon buffonery and not acting the way Putin is acting. Imagine being the leader of a country of 10’s of millions of people, and hearing the “leaders” of another country that you’ve never attacked casually and callously discussing a nuclear war against your country as ‘winnable’ all the time, since that obviously means the complete destruction of your country and its people.
I find it hard to digest the insanity of the present day west, and I was raised in it. Viewing it from the lens of a Russian must be downright bizarre to behold. Putin’s job should be easy: all he has to do is sit back and wait for the west to self destruct. Debt, bloated empire, and massive third world immigration will do us in without having to fire a shot, but empires don’t go out like that. The dying empire will look to a foreign boogeyman to aim it’s people’s wrath upon, and Putin is undoubtably aware of the dangers of being selected as that boogeyman.
Great post Doug. Very thought provoking. What should be the role of a Christian in this devolving culture? Are we to love our enemies unto our own destruction and the destruction of all those we love? The answer is, of course, no.
We are commanded, as followers of Christ, to lay down our lives for our friends, not to grovel at the feet of our enemies. To meekly submit to our own marginalization, isolation, and ultimate annihilation is tantamount to individual and collective suicide. Need I remind any thinking Christian out there that individual suicide is a mortal sin. Can collective suicide be viewed any differently?
Yes, Christians are clearly called to love our enemies, but I would take this to mean that we are to love them as children of the same God. No matter how encrusted with evil and hate the heart of any man may be, his soul is still a mirror awaiting the chance to reflect the love of his Creator back on to the minds and hearts of other men. Having said that, it is also crucial to remember that the God who is infinitely loving, is also infinitely just, and infinitely wrathful. The images of Christ’s Second Coming in Revelation are not a portrait of bucolic harmony.
To embrace the notion that the concepts of self-defense, just war, and retribution have no place in Christian doctrine is to be ignorant of over 2000 years of history. Though, vengeance is better left in God’s hands, there is a reason that the Cross and the Sword cast the same silhouette.
The concept of “just war” as determined by man came from Thomas Aquinas, not from Jesus.
Jesus taught something entirely different from war, although he affirmed the whole of the law and self defense is found in the early Jewish texts that established the whole of the law.
Anonymous,
Read the comment again. I never said the concept of ‘just war’ came from Jesus.
xrugger,
Regardless of one’s preference, or interpretation: If comments could be considered works of art, then that one should be framed.
Thanks. Much to unpack there.
Actually, thanks to all of the commenters. Great input overall.
Uncola, it seems to me that Xrugger has fallen into the very trap that you started your article with. “The images of Christ’s Second Coming in Revelation are not a portrait of bucolic harmony” is only in your version of the bible. They are not the words of christ but the words of a raving lunatic alone in a cave on an island. Most other christians do not accept Revelations as canon. But all christians accept Mathew Mark Luke and John as canon. Much of what christians believe is rooted in the writings of four men who never knew christ. In as much as christ was illiterate, it is not possible that what he said was written at any time by his own hand so all of his teachings were handed down “telephone style” just as you describe above. From the moment his words were uttered to anyone who listened to them they took on a life of their own until christianity reached the toilet seat moment where somebody decided that they should write it down. From that point on, the toilet seat story evolved through countless incarnations until you reach today.
And today, we have christians trying to contend that “it is also crucial to remember that the God who is infinitely loving, is also infinitely just, and infinitely wrathful.” This is nothing more than an excuse to kill people. Christ never said any such thing and if he did, you can be really sure that some later christian with an agenda rewrote what he actually said to authorize the wholesale slaughter of some group that opposed him.
Killing people never had anything to do with christ. He would have never condoned it. It was the job reserved for his perceived god and not one that he considered to be within the provenance of men. I suspect that is the fundamental schism which separated jews from christians. Jews would kill anybody any time and christians believed that only a just god could administer punishment. This belief in pacifism is the only thing that separated the two original monotheistic religions. It is only through the “toilet seat” story that we come to the wrath of god at the hand of man.
Hollywood Rob..
Thanks. You saved me from trying to type that on this tiny smartphone. Not that I could have said it that well.
HR,
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I am no theologen.
Moreover, as you can see by the above piece, I have more questions than answers.
However, I am an avid reader with an open mind. This book was written by an atheist legal editor for the Chicago Tribune, who actually took the “Ford Pinto” scandal national after it was initially reported on by Mother Jones magazine. Here is his book which directly addresses the legitimacy of Biblical writings; including authorship, credibility, and authenticity:
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“I am no theologen.” ———- uncola
No shit. You can’t even spell it!!! 🙂 🙂
FYI … “theologian”.
I know, right? I am NOT a bunch of Nordic theoloogs over here! Therefore, I will say to all of you what my pre-schooler niece told me once when I tried to explain something important. She said: “Don’t bop me with details!”
How do you know he misspelled it? I think a theologen is a student of the scriptures of Scientology. L Ron Hubbard created a number of concepts to give his followers clarity. His is a simpler version of Mormonism. Taken to a higher level, Scientology becomes Big Brother promising peace and security in exchange for your mortal privacy. But there’s hope also, Old Ron can spring you from hell just like Joseph Smith so that’s there.
EC
Just watched the movie “The Case For Christ,” and recommend it on Netflix.
I read that book cover to cover to make my wife happy. I was an unbeliever before, and after. That book will convince you that whatever you believe is right. It reads like it was written by someone trying to convince themselves to believe in something fundamentally illogical, because the alternative is disheartening. If you aren’t a believer, you will remain as such, because all the book really does is make explain why there should be a god, or why the author hopes there is one. There is a god, because he thinks there should be, and believes there to be. If you are already one of the faithful, it will reinforce that belief. So, either way, reading it will make sense.
Ya,Gator, that book didn’t work for my brother either. I learned you can’t argue someone into believing something they don’t want to believe so I don’t waste my breath anymore.
That’s the gist of the C.S. Lewis book my Rapture-Ready sister gave me in the effort to gain a convert: I think god is a good idea, so there must be one.
Just a few quick things here:
– I appreciate your input on this thread very much, Gator (& MC, CB, et al).
– To Lee Strobel’s credit, at the very least, he established the legitimacy of Biblical scholarship; particularly in comparison to the other important writings from antiquity.
– In both of the C.S. Lewis apologetics, “The Case for Christianity” and “Mere Christianity” the following dilemmas are presented to readers:
1.) If Christianity is false, it is of no importance; but if true, it is of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important.
And,
2.) Jesus was either the Son of God, or a lunatic. There is no halfway. In other words, based upon the statements attributed to him in the New Testament, he could not be considered merely a great “moral teacher”. With Christ, it’s go big or go home.
– which leads me to my final conclusions based upon my life experience, personal research, films (as described in the above post), various media, and in reading the comments on this thread, and others. Here is what I have concluded:
Believers think non-believers are spiritually blinded and non-believers think believers are, at the very least, deceived or self-deluded – and in the extreme, insane.
That’s all I gotta’ say ’bout that.
Uncola, I am a late in life convert (44). I remember very well my frame of mind for all those years I did not believe. I love C.S. Lewis and I did read Strobels books, the first 3, anyway. But that was after my conversion. I firmly believe I was not ready to hear any of it before that. I would just roll my eyes and tune out anyone who might try. That said, we never know for sure who the Spirit has prepared to be ready to hear the Gospel. So I do not assume anything, even if they are an atheist. However, I will not push my beliefs on anyone, and I love to hear what people DO believe, and why, because it tells me where they are at.
Being a late in life convert has it’s advantages. I am not stuck in any traditional Christian mindset and I am open to hearing things that send the traditionalists into a frenzy:D
Rob,
I always appreciate your thoughts, though I disagree with most of your comment. I would love to be able to sit down with you and many other denizens of TBP and discuss all these things face to face. It would be epic.
I would like to make one thing clear. I have fallen into no ‘trap’ as you put it. I do not view faith in Christ as a trap from which to be rescued. I believe because I choose to believe. I come to that belief through reason and experience coupled with the leap of faith that is ultimately required of any person who chooses to follow a God whose existence can neither be proven nor disproven.
Isn’t believing because you choose to believe and the Proven nor disproven argument, the trap to which is HR’s point.
Just sayin’
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RiNS,
I don’t accept HR’s premise. Faith is only a trap if you see it as a trap. You choose to believe in Odin. I could tell you that’s a trap for an unbeliever, but I think you are just misguided. Prove Odin’s existence and you prove me wrong, but until then, don’t assume that what I believe is a trap for me.
Sounds like a trap if you are asking me to prove something that you cannot do either yourself.
When I first commented on this thread I tried, in vain it seems, to steer this away from another pissing contest over which Sky Daddy is best. Though if it matters mine is better. Still when Jesus arm wrestling with Big Red it should shock nobody that this is the result.
And so it goes, another dick measuring contest.
I will answer same as I did the other day. I don’t pretend to know what murals you have painted on the box you are in. Ask yourself this, should it really matter to me. (Hint : It doesn’t)
Same applies to me also.
So to answer you can’t prove yours and I don’t care.
And if it matters My God is a bigger and badder than yours…
Yours in Odin,
RiNS
Xrugger, You know that I appreciate your writing so don’t take this in the wrong way. Faith is not the trap as I described it. The trap is the thing that you have faith in. The trap that I am referring to is not your faith, but the story that you chose to have as fundamental to your faith. Your belief in the bible is that it is the inspired word of god as written by man. You believe that the things that are written in the bible are true. The only difference between your faith and the muslim faith is the author of the book, and it turns out that both of those books have had a long and troubled past. Neither person about whom the books were written was known to the authors and then, in the intervening years, both books have been transformed into something completely different.
This is the trap. Your faith is not in question. The books of all three messianic religions have evolved over the years and it is not the original text that you have faith in. Now it wouldn’t actually matter very much which version of the bible, the torah, or the koran that you had faith in were it not for the unfortunate fact that hundreds of millions of people are erased from this earth in confrontations between sunni and shia, catholic and protestant, muslim and christian…the list is endless as is the list of names to be laid at the feet of the of the superstars of their day.
You can argue all day about your faith. We all have a faith. It is our world view. Yours includes christ as your savior a muslim’s includes Mohammad as the messenger of god. You both have faith. You both have a world view. I have a world view. But we all need to take into account the toilet seat. It doesn’t matter too much what your world view includes to anyone else until you start running around killing people to make the world safe for your god. That’s what the muslims do. That’s what the christians do. And while I haven’t really thought that much about it, it is likely to be the case that the jews do exactly the same thing.
So please recognize that the trap is not the faith. The trap is the toilet seat story that all of our faiths are based upon. I know that is probably not a very happy place to leave this but it is the crux of the matter as far as I can see.
Rins, what would you suggest I read to learn more about Odin?
link below…
I view all religions as a trap. Nothing more than a tool for the few to rule the many, the smart to rule the stupid, and for the wealthy to live off the labor of the many. It also serves as a mental crutch for the weak willed and weak minded, taking pressure off them for solving their own problems, as many people simply want to be told what to think and what to believe.
For the record, I’m not saying all of you that believe are “stupid”. I can tell by reading many of your comments that this place is populated by many highly intelligent people, I’m speaking in generalities.
When I read the title, about a “world of lies” and then saw the Jesus/Devil picture, I realized the author had little capacity to comprehend irony.
Religion is the Ur-Lie.. the proto-lie that underpins all others. If you can get people to believe in virgin births and walking on water and life after death.. what *can’t* you make them believe??
No coincidence that “In the beginning was The Word..”. All words are lies, to a greater or lesser degree.
Other animals have a hard time lying due to their lack of words. Humans can’t do much *but* lie, given that we are swimming in words.
Hey Chubby – think it through. Who’s not comprehending the irony? But it’s even bigger than that. It’s a freakin’ paradox.
xrugger –
“Yes, Christians are clearly called to love our enemies, but I would take this to mean that we are to love them as children of the same God.”
I agree with your comment, except for this part. Only those who have accepted the gift, the adoption, are children of God. Created in the image of God, yes, and deserving of respect but they are not part of the family. A small distinction, but important. It defines exactly how we judge or if we even do, how we interact.
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Like the Exxon Valdez and sea otters: Oil and water don’t mix. Or do they?
suicide is a “mortal” sin because, after preaching the virtues of heaven, the church was losing followers who only wished to hasten their trip to the pearly gates with golden streets, a nice alternative to their worldly suffering. the church needs its followers; the priesthood needs its sustenance. the narrative was adjusted accordingly.
Credit,
Suicide is a mortal sin because it throws back into the face of the Creator that which is His greatest gift.
If you remember history correctly, the reason early Christians were killed was for their faith/belief in Jesus Christ as the Messiah and if they had to choose (which we may have to as well, one day), they would not deny their faith in who He is….Same as to the Christians during the reformation who were burned at the stake and put in dungeons…Deny their faith in Jesus’s death as final propitiation for their sins and faith into new life, or follow the dictates of a Roman papacy that said differently…They died for their faith, not because they were called to be passive!
In the movie, “Paul”, it was a fictional story about supposed Christians going in to save Paul in prison….fiction, folks. that is not what happened, so don’t get misled…Peter and those in prison were released by an angel of God and in so doing, the guards and families believed…
Very few people look for Truth, most people look for what they want to hear so it will justify their personal desires.
Yet Jesus said to those who do seek truth: “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. – John 8:31-32 KJV
I think Jesus’ exhortations to love enemies and turn the other cheek were addressed primarily to individuals, whether in normal day-to-day life or in stressful situations like Paul and Mark. Being able to do that is a powerful testimony and weapon against the values of our enemy and his large terrain. It is one of the most difficult commands to follow (at least for me).
Nowhere does Christ suggest nations will stop warring, nor does he ever suggest his people should not stand up to evil in their personal or collective lives. He never condemned soldiers or armies. As long as “the powers of the air” are at work, war will be a fact of life, and just war will sometimes be a necessity.
What we are dealing with in Syria is another in an ongoing collection of unjust wars by a “Christian” nation. Those Christians who still line up behind the neocon nonsense are deluded. It would be wise to ponder another teaching from Christ: “As you sow, so shall you reap.”
“He never condemned soldiers or armies.” Indeed. He said “those that live by the sword will die by the sword.” He did not say those that live by the sword go to hell. I would take that to mean that mean just what it says. You are likely to die a violent death if you are involved in war.
“He never condemned soldiers or armies.” Indeed. He said “those that live by the sword will die by the sword.” He did not say those that live by the sword go to hell. I would take that to mean that mean just what it says. You are likely to die a violent death if you are involved in war.
I might add that most of the dead will be innocents, who wished no part in the whole affair.
I always interpreted that statement to include the whole range of hostile behaviors, up to and including overt violence. “Live by” implies an ongoing way of life, and yes, soldiers would fall into that category.
Another commenter reminded me that Jesus didn’t hesitate to show a little violence to the money changers in the temple, so even he had limited tolerance for passivity in the face of evil.
And yet the Catholics invited the Jews to be the money changers as Christians were forbidden. How far has that gotten the church? Christians enslaved to eternal debt via the Jewish moneychangers.
News to me. Links to that info?
I think the answer lies in the fact that the true warfare is spiritual, not with pawns, or even the creeps directing them. Our main battle is the one within each of us. The real politics is not being on this side or that, but, “to whom you yield your members to obey, his servants you are.”
When Satan said, “All this is mine, & I give it unto whosoever I wish,” he was not stating a legal claim to the Earth, for he never had any such thing. He was saying that the people of Earth obeyed him. This was the power broken at the Cross, but each person still has to walk in it, and most of us do a poor job of it. So you start with yourself first. Whether you stand and pray, or fight enemies foreign & domestic, or enforce the law, you must keep this in mind. The visible bad guys, whether the foreign headcutters or the domestic jihadis and ANTIFA fruit loops, have to be dealt with. It will be much more effective to deal with those who have raised them up. There is some evidence that this is being done behind the scenes. There is also a lot of evidence that the head bad guys are “brothers of the left handed path”, to use the polite term. I started researching in earnest the occult nature of the “New Order of the Ages,” the correct translation of Novo Ordo Seclorum , about 20 years ago. It’s worse than most people think. If this is brought out into the light, and I think it will, the visible enemies will be dealt a devastating blow w/o our need to bomb people. They probably won’t all just melt away, like Sauron’s legions after the Ring went into the fire, but you never know. They’ll be back, of course. Final victory will come when the Lord severs the wicked from the just, and not before. Til then, “Work while it is yet day.”
Haha, Philip, I’m surprised I haven’t run into you down in the rabbit hole. I agree with most of what you say, but if you go a little deeper down ‘the hole’, I’ve found that the “annuit coeptis” is much to be considered as well….and that it is quite possible (and seems likely to me) that satan indeed does rule the earth. If you haven’t seen the utube documentaries “Riddles in Stone” and “The Secret Faith of our Founding Fathers”, they are very informative. A couple of books by Tom Horn “Apollyon Rising 2012” and “Zenith 2016” are good reads. This Tom Horn is really quite an amazing author, having written many books, one of which deals with the resignation of Pope Benedict, having predicted his resignation a full year before it was made publicly. (Petrus Romanus, the Final Pope is Here; and the sequels Exo-Vaticana; Project L.U.C.I.F.E.R and the Vatican’s Astonishing Plan for the Arrival of an Alien Savior; and the book In Search of the Immortals). This man is a good friend of Steve Quayle and together they seem to be spot on about where this world is headed, and why! If we don’t cross paths down in the rabbit hole, then maybe I’ll see ya in the carrot patch.
I find common ground in reading the articles from TBP’s regular contributors ! A few weeks back, I read a piece (from ‘Stuckey’ I think), that described the loss of his father, it really hit home with me.
I lost my dad 20 years ago, and unlike Stuckey’s dad (?), mine never realized much monetary success. He was orphaned at the age of nine, having lost a younger brother and then the loss of his mother and youngest sister in childbirth, making him the youngest of the remaining nine. The homestead in the Missouri hills had a dirt floor, and he found work in a hardware warehouse across the river in Atchison, Ks. when he was thirteen. He spent the next 55 years or so working for that company or its’ competitor. They were both dying companies as the onset of Kmart and Walmart rose, so his traveling salesman of wholesale hardware dwindled, and the bankruptcy filing of the company he worked for robbed him of most of his meager pension, where, ironically he spent the last few years of his life working for Walmart.
He never went to a doctor except twice, one time when my older brother lost his grip on the handle of a double-headed axe, and the blade struck him on the outside of his right ankle, breaking the bone and requiring stitches in the flesh. The second time was many years later with chest pain, when they found that cancer was constricting the aorta. He was eaten up inside (never smoked or drank), and they gave him just 3 to 6 months to live. He made it 22 months ! Family was all that ever mattered to him, and with my older brother and me having never had kids, but our little sister had a son at the age of forty. They found the cancer exactly 30 days before my nephew was born !
I could go on and on about those ensuing months, but won’t. During his working years as a hardware wholesaler, he would leave around 4 or 5 am every morning, and with the average 100 miles a day of covering the small town stores and lumber yards on his route, he would return home 12-13 hours later, then have to writes up the orders to send them to the company. Yet he was a decades long elder in the Lutheran church, (generations of Lutherans on my mothers side) and would often spend his weekend afternoons helping the old widows of the church with home repairs and such…..and bla, bla, bla…
When he died in the manner and circumstances, I shook my fist at the Almighty and determined then that I would read every damn word in The Book and figure out the WHY ! Twenty years later, having read every word through completely twice, listened to thousands of hours of different theological teachers, the books of Jasher and Enoch……….etc………I still don’t have any of the answers !
I said all that to say this: As I took my first full time job at a packing house (I worked two part time jobs while attending two years of a local community college and quit in ’77 to go to work for TWELVE THIRTY FIVE AN HOUR), I was pretty nervous going to work in ‘the jungle’. His advise to me then was “just do the best you can, and don’t be afraid to tell ’em to kiss your ass if it’s not good enough”. (words I’ve lived by my whole life!) Another piece of advise he gave me was “if you cut a fart by the back door, by the time it gets to the front door the story will be that you crapped your britches”…..which is basically all I wanted to say. Thanks for the ‘therapy’!!
You can see it in the movies and the paper and the TV news
Somebody’s army is always on the move
There’s gonna be a battle the lines have been drawn
They got guns and tanks and planes
The wells are gone dry and the water is bad and the air is acid rain
There’s war after war and rumors of war from the East
There’s a rumblin’ in the ground and they’re talkin’ about the beast
Good mothers cry ’cause the rivers run high
With the blood of too many sons
Some people say peace is on the way
But the worst is still to come
‘Cause the prophets wrote about it
And Jesus spoke about it
And John got to take a look
And he told us what he saw when it’s easy to see
It’s goin’ by the book
It’s goin’ by the book
There’s armies in the cities and the missiles stand ready for flight
A pale horse rides like the wind across the night
And that rumblin’ in the desert like thunder gettin’ closer
Are the trumpet’s gettin’ ready to blow
There’s gonna be a shout that will wake the dead
We better be ready to go
‘Cause the prophets wrote about it
And Jesus spoke about it
And John got to take a look
And he told us what he saw when it’s easy to see
It’s goin’ by the book
It’s goin’ by the book
(It’s goin’ by the book)
(It’s goin’ by the book)
(It’s goin’ by the book
Ordo,
You should read the 7 books of “The Earth Chronicles”. It explains lots of the Old Testament which was taken from the Sumerian tablets. I can’t help you on the New Testament as I have searched my whole life and cannot find any historical proof that Jesus existed, just what the church says. Strange that he lived in the most recorded time by the romans.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/sitchinbooks_timeline.htm
Sub, I do believe that I have seen a reference to the brother of one called the christ. No reference to christ himself and no record of a birth, a trial, or a crucifixion although all of the rest of those records are quite well documented. It’s almost like the Romans didn’t think that christ was that big of a deal.
HR,
My catholic deacon friend and I have been going around this topic for 45 years since high school days. I have seen plenty of reference to the Hebrew word Christ meaning messiah but not to a messiah named Jesus. Nor anything from the romans. Last fall I did see early Christian symbols in the National Museum of Rome that were reputed to be from the first century but nothing from a source that was not Christian.
This is a good view of Mauro Biglino Unexpected Bible.
“Mauro Biglino translated 23 books of the Bible for the Vatican. He had to translate the Leningrad Codex (the version of the Bible which all three major monotheistic religions – Cristian, Jewish and Muslim – recognize as the official Bible) from the Hebrew, word by word, literally and with no interpretation whatsoever. That is to say, he’s not a wannabe kabbalist, conspirationist or ufologist, since the official publishing organism of the Vatican approved and released those books, at least 17 of them. While working on the Bible, he realized that many of the stories this book tells where mistranslated, misinterpreted, mostly on purpose, in order to insert the notion of a spiritual, all-mighty and unerring God. The picture he gives us of the bestseller of all times is surprisingly different from what we all were told. Actually, as soon as he released “THE BOOK THAT WILL FOREVER CHANGE OUR IDEAS ABOUT THE BIBLE – THE GODS COMING FROM SPACE”, the Vatican suspended all further publications of Mauro Biglino’s works: Let’s discover why!”
Stichin is a fraud
http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/
The alien gospel is the strong delusion of 2nd Thessalonians 2:11. signs and wonders too
Uncola –
“So I ask this now of Christians and non-Christians alike: Should we love our enemies or slay them? Which is right and how can one know for sure?”
There is no conflict here. Recheck your premise about what agape love is. Just because a person must use the ultimate force against someone does not mean, all things considered, that you would not want the best for them. Spiritually. Eternally.
I’ll expound here for a moment. We are called to respect one another. God is REALLY big about respect. He absolutely will not violate our free will. He respects our decisions. He may not approve, or think that they are correct, but he respects them. He will respect our choices all the way to the Judgment Seat. When someone does something worthy of being confronted or killed, I am respecting their decision, and responding in the way that they have chosen. Even if the consequences result in death, that is their free will to walk that path.
I may not be explaining myself adequately, in which case I can only apologize if I cause anyone to stumble.
I struggled for some time, and still have to check myself, with exactly how far my responses should be, in many situations.
For instance, I would not hesitate to confront or kill someone hurting an innocent, or someone unbidden in my house at 2am, or several other circumstances I can imagine. Those seem pretty clear cut to me. Everyone has to make that determination for themselves. On the other hand, I will never join a ‘resistance’ or a rebellion. I still struggle with the limits of submitting to authority. My own natural tendency would have been to already have a wide-spread underground to remove, in whatever means necessary, the tyrannical overstep, and those who seem over-zealous to control others. I would be a somewhat unique and effective force in such an endeavor.
My spiritual understanding, however, wars with that natural tendency. I am absolutely sure of where we are, historically, and where we are going. The when, however, is not for any of us to know.
As such, I am tasked – all Twice-Born are tasked – with considering the eternal more than the temporal. Do I allow horrible excess against myself in order to save an immortal soul? Where do I draw that line? Would my example spark something within my captors/killers, or would I better serve by protecting others?
For some, this is a nonsensical argument. Each to his/her own. I answer to myself, and to my God before myself. My personal decisions weigh on the side of mercy over judgment, and any error should be in that direction.
Thank the great lord that we have TS to tell us what he is thinking. I personally could never hope to suggest that I knew the mind of god.
HR –
Isn’t that what you do with every comment and post? I agree it is all opinion, unless I actually cite scripture, so what’s your issue? Is opinion/ point of view now verboten? That would kind of shoot the whole TBP thing right in the ass, wouldn’t it?
If you would like, I’ll offer some scripture to back up my opinion.
Gen. 1:1 through Rev. 22:21. Study that and then get back to me.
edit: More specifically, 1 Cor. ch 2, especially 2:16. “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
Some contributors here seem to have the courage to write about things from the Christian viewpoint, on a platform guaranteed to elicit some skepticism, criticism, and heat.
Yet, they still wander into the kitchen. Noble. And, others do appreciate what’s offered up.
Good to see your movie review, Uncola;
as it is one I have on my list of very few that might be worth my time and money.
On the question of hate the sin but love the sinner, it’s a difficult concept to apply in daily life.
Seems to challenge me every time I see or hear something that is detestable, and I’m condemning.
Judgement is critical (right or wrong?) for any person trying to use a moral compass to navigate through the messes we find in current events.
When in a good frame of mind, I try to consider: “Have I ever done similar?”
Helps me avoid hypocrisy.
Yet, we’re surrounded by evil.
Hence, the need (for me) to disengage from the constant barrage of doom, gloom, and hopelessness, and retreat back into things that restore states that elicit relaxed peace of mind and
personal gratification. . . a build project/improvement; a good workout, a good book, a good walk in the woods with a long arm in hand, in the company of friends or family. You get the idea.
I suspect this is why we see some BDR’s who disappear for a little while. “Enough” they seem to say.
The Serenity Prayer actually has 3 verses, while the 1st verse is most widely known.
-Grant me the Serenity to accept that which can’t be changed;
Courage to change the things I can (reactions), and the
Wisdom to know the difference.
2. “Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time,
taking, as He did, this world as it is, and not as I would have it.
3. Trusting that He will make all things right, if I surrender to His will (acceptance)
…so that I may be reasonably happy in this life, but supremely happy with Him in the next.
So, for me, without trying to convert anybody to what I believe in,
it comes down to:
-What has me all pissed off?
-Can I do anything about it?
-If yes, then make an effective change.
-If no, then accept what is, and get back to living as best I know how.
Too simplified, in a complicated world? Too pollyannish? Maybe.
But like elusive forgiveness, especially in the face of horrific injustices and evil,
holding grudges doesn’t hurt the target of our anger; it hurts the holder who can’t let it go.
Difficult at times.
But the reward of letting it go releases the ball and chain.
Good article, Doug. A lot of food for thought. As I read this article and comments, my ignorance was exposed for me to see and I thank everyone for this.
These are indeed confusing times for me; it is difficult to know what is occurring, next to impossible to understand what to believe and beyond my ability to see what to do. My fear is not so much for myself but for my grandkids and our country. My simplicity leaves me with this thought, freedom is not free nor is it a free ride. It seems to me, there are among us those who are truly evil and then many who are misguided, foolish and cowardly; perhaps our compassion should be held in reserve for the latter group. With this being said though, a lot of the people who misguidedly voted for Hitler, perhaps, could not envision the outcome of their actions; yet, their ignorance did not prevent the horrific outcome.
If I love my enemy and he kills me, am I still not dead? If I tolerate evil out of a spirit of goodness, does evil still not fester and flourish?
I am not going to speak from an imagined understanding of the teachings of Christ because my faith is so uncomplicated it would be mere foolishness to do this. Even though I enjoy the words of all of you whose understanding is greater than mine; sadly, your words of wisdom, don’t help me with my dilemmas. I fear the day may come when we must each chose and do so alone; I know my actions will become apparent only at this time but still I believe, that there are those who can not defend themselves from evil and what evil will do to me, it will also do to the next.
Let’s for just a moment take this away from the concepts of christianity and look at it from another perspective. You can paint your decisions with the bright sparkly colors of christianity if you like, but that does not absolve you of the responsibility for the decisions that you must make.
Two quick things to add – first, great movie, but Paul’s “second” was Dr Luke, author of his Gospel and Acts.
Second, great comments from all. I’ve struggled with the dual nature of being a Christian man – wanting to be both a warrior for justice and a compassionate teacher/healer who converts the hardened hearts. As the scripture goes, there’s a time for each in it’s season. As we struggle in these latter days against the principalities of darkness, the conclusion that I’ve come to is that you have to surrender your will to a greater power in order to do any good in the world. St Louis de Motfort has a great prayer “The Fiery Prayer
for the Apostles of the Latter Times” where I believe that he correctly points out that when we act without the benefit and guidance of the Father’s will, we’re going go screw it up. There’s lots of good guidance in his prayer, and for me I’ve realized that without substantial efforts on my part towards prayer and quiet reflection, I can’t know a will beyond my own. I’m trusting every day in His guidance to help me understand that there’s a time for the sword to crush His enemies, and a time for compassion to help heal and convert the misguided. I pray daily for both divine intervention into the problems of the world, and the wisdom & guidance to make some difference with my own efforts, however small.
Cowanderer
You might enjoy “The Valley of Vision” (sorry can’t underline on my iPad), a collection of Puritan prayers and devotional readings edited by Arthur Bennett. Rich and deep. Amazon.
Mark is the oldest Gospel, Luke was the physician. John
Cowanderer and Bluestem,
I stand corrected. I wrote that late last evening, and mistakenly inserted Mark where it should have been Luke. Thank you for bringing that to light and I will make the changes on my own blog shortly.
Admin has also made the changes here. Thanks to all
Meatballs ,,you being silly…. again ! Christ believed he and the Father are one and God the Father is a God of Wrath so Christ believes war is necessary.When Christ was here the last time he was the Suffering servant full of grace.Upon his next return he will not strive with people or nations. He will cast into the lake of fire. You don’t get to pick what books of Bible you like or dislike. Revelation is part of the biblical record whether you like it or not. Before you comment next time Check with me first!!!!??
Hahahaha. Good one BB. Here’s your toilet seat. Now go sacrifice your lamb.
Unconventional , why lies travel around this world at the speed of light is simple.” We know we are of God ,and the whole world lies under the control of the wicked one ” 1 John 5:19.or ” The Earth is given into the hands of the wicked “Job 9:24
How are we to love our enemies ? By obeying the 10 Commandments .All bets are off when your/our enemies have said over and over they want us dead like they have in our once Great Apostasy of a nation.
Can you edit your essay, Uncola? Like a misspelled word, it bothered me that you referred to Luke as Mark in an otherwise very thought provoking essay. I saw the movie last Sunday. I could not blame the rebels who broke into the jail attempting to rescue Paul. Not only that, they wanted to start killing Romans in revenge for what they had been doing to their Christian friends. Would we all not feel the same after seeing what the Romans did to the boy or seeing living people turned into Roman candles?
I would ask what enemies you are referring to? Do you have personal enemies? Your questions need to be qualified in order for me to try to answer them.
We used to have a co-ed bible study in our home. One of the men in the group was raised Mennonite. In fact, I believe his father was a Mennonite preacher. The church we all attended at that time was a non-denominational bible church. So we all had different backgrounds. Anyways, we ventured onto this topic one evening and he stuck to his Mennonite tradition of pacifism. I asked him if he would defend his wife against someone who would break into his house and rape her. He struggled to answer and finally said no, he would not resort to violence to defend his wife. This was not a wimpy man by any stretch of the imagination. He projected an attitude of strength. It was late and I did not press it any further but I was appalled and would not put myself in danger by being married to such as that. She did not seem to mind, however. At least not in front of anyone else.
In our personal dealings with individuals, as Christians, we should not play tit for tat. It serves no good purpose and ruins our witness. We have been advised to try to live in peace in as much as it depends on us. (Rom 12:18) I do not believe that this requires to lie down like dogs and ignore tyranny. Paul used his citizenship as a Roman whenever he thought it would be to his advantage. As citizens of a Republic under a constitution, we have rights which we lawfully can use. Once the government devolves into a tyranny, we should not presume we should have to live under that tyrannical, lawless system because..Romans 13 says we should according to some who have twisted it for their benefit.
This is not a new discussion. They argued about this same thing before the Revolutionary War. The Reverend Jonathan Mayhew addressed this issue in his famous sermon.
“Common tyrants, and public oppressors, are not entitled to obedience from their subjects, by virtue of any thing here laid down by the inspired apostle.”
Read the whole thing, it’s worth your time.
http://hushmoney.org/UnlimitedSubmission_Mayhew.htm
So much of what is in the bible has been twisted to say whatever we want it to say. For example, women should be submissive to their husbands…stop. Don’t read any further, then you won’t have to love your wives as Christ loved the church.
If I did not make sense somewhere, let me know. I am still using my surgery that I had last Monday as an excuse for my brain fog.
Mary Christine
Sometimes I wonder if Christ was referring to the challenge of resolving the paradoxes of Christianity when he referred to finding the “narrow way.”
I appreciate your comment.
I think the paradoxes would not be such a problem if we remembered that the bible was written to the contemporary audience of the ancient middle east. Having a better knowledge of that particular time and place would make it a bit clearer for us.
MC says:
I fixed the error (x 3) on my blog and Admin was kind enough to make the changes here. I knew better, but as admin replied back to me: “These things happen when we are both the writer and editor”. It was an oversight but, as I told Jim, fear of mistakes like that are exactly what wake me up in the middle of the night.
Your essay made perfect sense and to answer your question: The enemies I was thinking about when I wrote the above essay/questions would include the globalists, Cultural Marxists, Antifa-types, Deep State, criminal traiters, foreign enemies, etc (i.e. – no one in my personal circle at this time. Well, on second thought, maybe one. 🙂 )
I am grateful that both Christians and non-believers alike have provided their perspectives on this thread. Regarding the Mennonite husband, I have zero ambiguity when it comes to self-defense. In that vein, a reader also e-mailed me (via my blog) an interesting link this morning in response to the article.
However, what I do question is picking up arms against any deserved inevitability of America’s ongoing collapse. We didn’t arrive here by accident and it’s all way bigger than me. I truly don’t have all the answers – hence the article above.
Thank you, MC. I enjoy your point of view and will research your posted link very soon.
I almost didn’t say anything about the errors but I checked before I hit send and didn’t see anyone else had caught it yet. I am a women and we have a hard time keeping quiet sometimes.
So you think we deserve to be judged for our iniquities? I do. I used to read Habakkuk in that vain (vane?) Does that mean we should tolerate evil because we have done far to little to combat it in the past? So now we should stand by and watch as TBTP plant their ugly big boot on our necks? I don’t believe that for a minute. But as someone else said, it is between our God and ourselves alone.
I read your “Mayhew on Romans 13” link and might even do a separate post on it at some point:
“So I ask this now of Christians and non-Christians alike: Should we love our enemies or slay them? Which is right and how can one know for sure?” ———- article
Right out the gate your article has a picture of Jesus and Satan arm-wrestling.
Jesus considered Satan as The Enemy. So, then, since it has been said that we ought to follow in Jesus’s steps, we can legitimately ask; “WWJD?”.
Jesus sent that sonuvabitch to HELL!! Eternal torment. Suffering. Separated from God forever. Pain. Oh, such excruciating pain so that the smoke of the Devil’s ass rises to God’s nostrils in heaven, and a pleasing aroma it is. In other words, Jesus kicked the living shit out of his enemy!!
“Go and do likewise.” — Luke 10:37
In other words, we should do the SAME. Kick the ever living shit out of our enemies, especially Libtards.
OTOH, Jesus forgave the very sonsabitches who nailed him to the cross.
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Forgive, or Fight? As is so often the case. it is not a black-and-white issue. Each situation is unique. Best you can do is make a decision, and hope (or, pray) it is the right one.
Good stuff, Stuck. As always. Thanks
Can you forgive AND fight?
Trump is in a unique position. The MSM and most of the ‘Net are arrayed against him; they will twist, warp, spin and bend anything he says or does to reflect poorly on him. Can you imagine trying to run a country when the press is not an impartial narrator of your failings, not an objective recorder of events but a malicious, devious, perverted travesty of a propaganda machine that literally hates you and everything you stand for?
There’s plenty of evidence, read any paper or “news site” (besides Drudge possibly, and occasionally Fox) and you can find it for yourself. Given that, why tell them anything real?
He’s a world leader, and some other nations are philosophically opposed to his actions. Would you give clear signals of your intentions to your opponents?
He has a network of powerful pedophiles and elites against him in his own nation. Do you think he should give them clear warnings, “Stop diddling kiddies or I’ll jail your ass”? Or just pile up the sealed indictments until ready to take them all down at once?
Finally, back to Stucky’s question. Do we forgive or fight? Well, Jesus cast out the demons from the possessed, and cured mental illness. I cannot do so, either one, but I find myself surrounded by the mentally ill!
– Two lesbians drive off a cliff with their adopted children in the car
– The Brits are trying to outlaw knives and enforce hate-speech (no such thing) laws
– The Europeans are still importing Islamics
– The Canadians are trying to outlaw various things as well
When surrounded by mentally ill people who can harm you, is it your duty to be compassionate or defend yourself? Defend others from their actions? Where do you draw the line?
I find it to be a personal decision; those who choose to attack me and mine choose poorly. I may be wrong and I may distress my Creator, but I intend to honor the gift of life by preserving mine and my family as long as possible.
When faced with a stopped-up sewer, grab a shovel and clean it out, down to the drain tiles, and flush it out. Leave no foulness to regrow anytime soon.
“I find it to be a personal decision; those who choose to attack me and mine choose poorly. I may be wrong and I may distress my Creator, but I intend to honor the gift of life by preserving mine and my family as long as possible.”
Very well said.
In Mattew 5:39 Jesus referred to being slapped on the right cheek. Given most people are right handed, a slap on the right cheek is a backhand, more of an insult than an assault. Hence “let it go.” He told His disciples to take a sword on their second trip, clearly this isn’t from fear of a backhand slap. When He was struck while being questioned by the high priest (John 18:23) Jesus did not turn the other cheek! He asked why did they strike Him.
As a follower of Christ I have a responsibility to protect the innocent, as I believe I would sin by allowing harm (to an innocent) to happen if I could prevent it.
For those who have bought into the lefist assault on the historical reliability of the gospels, I would suggest doing a little reading. The book by Lee Stoebel mentioned above is good. Craig Blomberg has written a much more robust book specifically about the reliability of the gospels. Luke is likely as fine of an historian from ancient times as ever had been. His book of ‘The Acts of the Apostles’ contains so much detail that has been validated over the years, it will blow your mind if you haven’t ever looked into this.
We are broken, fallen creatures in a fallen world. Bad stuff will keep happening until He returns. I believe that some of us are called to seek to preserve what we can of a “Christian remnant” through the coming endarkenment. JJS of AMRRON has done several podcasts taking about a Christian underground (such as necessarily exists elsewhere in the world at present).
I find details (perspectives?) like that very interesting. It’s one of the main reasons I surf and blog, more than I read books, of late. Thank you for commenting, ApoloDoc
“As a follower of Christ I have a responsibility to protect the innocent, as I believe I would sin by allowing harm (to an innocent) to happen if I could prevent it.”
Nice. I absolutely agree with that. The only risk is in determining who is innocent.
For example: You come upon a man who appears to beating the shit out of a woman. Do you interfere? Do you shoot him? What if you do, then discover that, in addition to the gunshot wound you created, you discover a knife wound inflicted by the woman who was robbing him?
Be absolutely sure. If you cannot, then be a good witness.
Not a Christian. As a Buddhist I do not believe in causing harm to any living Soul without reason. If I notice them before putting my foot down I will even shift my step to avoid stepping on insects. That said, Buddhists are not taught that they have to be passive and be brutalized by psychopaths without defending themselves. I won’t initiate violence. I am willing to respond with violence to defend myself or my loved ones. I might avert my step to avoid squishing an ant, but will still swat a mosquito.
Jeshua Ben Joseph is venerated by us as a Godman, an Avatar and a great teacher. I will point out that in all those pictures higher up in the responses depicting Christ, he did not look like that. He looked more like a Palestinian. When the Vikings were approached by Christian proselytizers in the middle ages they referred to it as the “religion of the new white Jesus” because they had run in to the original version in their travels.
Western civilization is doomed if Christian men will not stand up and defend their women, children, countries and lives. Turning the other cheek just makes it easier for the Muslim to cut your throat. Remember that Jeshua used violence in driving the parasitic market sellers from the temple.
Our author writes… “So I ask this now of Christians and non-Christians alike: Should we love our enemies or slay them? Which is right and how can one know for sure?”
Why not go to God’s source for the matter. As a Christian, where in the Bible ought we look to find the answer? Certainly not in Gods specific instruction to the nation Israel; which takes up about 95% of the Books pages. We need to find the answers with the Apostle God sent to believers today, Paul. We are NOT Israel. We are NOT “spiritual” Israel. We are NOT Israel 2.0, Israel is currently fallen; they will be revived again in the future.
To those who would follow in the “physical footsteps” of Christ, you need to realize that Christ was NOT sent in the flesh in order to speak with you. Your marching orders do not come from Him during His earthly ministry; nor do they come from Peter, John and James or Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Mat 15:24… “But he answered and said, I am not sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Christ was sent (prophesied) to the nation Israel.
Paul sums the differing ministries (Christ’s earthly and heavenly) up nicely in:
Romans 15:8… “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Israel – which we are not) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob):”
Romans 15:16… “That I (Paul) should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”
Believers today are to follow Christ as Paul followed Christ; with Paul as our pattern. Not Peter, etc.
1 Cor 11:1… “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.”
1 Tim 1:15-16… “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me FIRST Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
Paul received a specific and fundamentally differing appointment from the risen and glorified Lord Christ then did Peter and the 11.
Gal 1:11-12… “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
He went to the unbelieving Jew first as they were his kinsmen and when they still did not receive Christ in freely offered grace, Paul went to the strangers of the covenants of promise. That would be you and me.
Eph 2:12-13… “That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”
Nowhere in the 4 “gospel” accounts of Christ’s earthly ministry does He suggest that one lay down his life for an enemy. He does indicate the greatest love in laying down ones life for a friend however. Who were His friends?
John 15:13-14… “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.”
Mighty big “IF”, no? Does anyone here keep all the commandments? Break one and you’ve broken them all… What did Christ reveal to Paul after His ascension? Amazing things which defeated satan’s plans here on earth AND in heaven! Paul was the “chief” enemy of Christ (Acts 9). Yet…
Romans 5:10… “For if, when we were ENEMIES, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”
This is radically different. The old and new testaments revolve around the law. The old was by failing human effort (Deut 6:24-25). The new by God given ability (Ez 36:27, Heb 8:8-11). We today are not involved in either. We live in “no testament/covenant” times. Yes, for the past 2,000 years. How do so few realize?
Romans 6:14… “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are NOT UNDER THE LAW, but under grace.”
The catholic church and their protestant brethren have absolutely and intentionally polluted mans understanding of the simplicity of what God would have us understand. Non-covenantial grace. That is what Christ revealed specifically to Paul in 13 short epistles. See for yourselves. Don’t believe a word I say.
To answer our authors most excellent question directly, Paul would say (and these are very difficult words to follow…):
Rom 12:17-21… “Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. IF IT BE POSSIBLE, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.”
“If it be possible…” Logically THEN, if it be impossible, as in the case of self defense, slay the man before he slays you or yours.
A Christians primary battle is not a physical one, it is spiritual; because the worlds problems at their core ARE spiritual. These spiritual problems (jealousy, greed, wrath…) just kind of naturally manifest themselves as physical.
Eph 6:12… “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
God has reconciled Himself to this fallen sinful world full of His enemies. Hardly anyone realizes such. The blame gets pointed directly at organized religion; not belief in the Bible rightly divided; knowing what is written for our personal instruction versus our general understanding. Bible Christianity is the 100% absence of religion. Religion defined as anything a man believes himself capable of doing to please God or to assuage His anger. Sorry, but…
Rom 3:12… “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Christ explains to Paul; Paul explains to us, what He did in order to reconcile this hopeless situation as only God could. God did it ALL!
2 Cor 5:17-21… “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, BE YE RECONCILED to God. For he hath made him to BE sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Such is the last thing any of you will hear in a “crusading” or “zionist” catholic or protestant church. Ours is the ministry of reconciliation toward ALL men, not of wrath and vengeance. Clear and concise Bible understanding has been butchered by religion. The process began back in Paul’s day…
2 Tim 1:15… “This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.”
…and it has waxed worse and worse till this very day.
2 Tim 3:13… “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”
Here we are. A lot to digest, I know. The rabbit hole is far deeper than many here imagine.
Eph 5:14-17… “Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
The days are evil. satan is the god of this world.
2 Cor 4:3-5… “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.”
What is the will of the Lord for men today?
1 Tim 2:3-4… “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
Get saved. Come to a knowledge of Biblical truth. Read Romans 3-8, Ephesians 1-3 very slowly.
And…
1 Thes 5:18… “In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.”
If those two edicts were followed the worlds problems would diminish to the point of obscurity.
Glad to see your insights again
Thank you kindly. In a world full of lies the Truth stands in stark contrast. Praise God for it. Pray that more men come to realize it. I think sometimes it’s just too simple for people to grasp.
The above should be “Bible 101” learned as a child, yet it escapes the vast majority. It escaped me till I began to read for myself instead of listening to other men. Thank you religion.
grace and peace to you and yours…
I completely disagree with that Stucky. He’s looking more and more like the real deal. Guy who’s willing to get down in the swamp and fight it. His tactics are, what his tactics are. Since he’s doing the fighting, I got no problem with that. All the shemales around here wetting their panties worried about war, I haven’t seen any more wars. Looks to me like a guy going through a particularly ugly to do list at a pretty good clip.
Well to sum up we be fooked cuz Jesus was a pussy.
or not..
Rob, this was a person who confronted the authorities of the day; the Pharisees who were the equivalent of our Senators. Do you recall the time Biden chastised a disabled man for not standing in his presence? This so-called pussy stood up to them unto death.
He chastised the bankers; this was a person with a natural authority; rich, poor, military sought him out. If you read the literature, it was the jealous Pharisees that wanted him dead. He did not live his life in fear of them.
This is a man whose message has endured many centuries while mere mortals worry, like the Babel folks, that their race or culture will not survive. Contrast this with Hitler who was financed by the German military. Or Trump who was financed by the Republican party. Do you think their message of racial purity as opposed to spiritual purity will survive for the ages?
Come on EC you are smarter than this. Besides I ended by saying he might not be a pussy. Theres that… And one moar thing what you talking bout Willis with this racial purity stuff and Trump. I mean fair enough about Hilter but the Don as well. Come On varmit.
And you do have to admit Odin was one bad ass. I mean him and his brothers boot fucked some giant a long time ago thereby creating everything….
So really folks should Hail Odin and Thank him for creating all this in the first place.
Skol,
RiNS
You’ll notice I kept to the human being part of the subject. I added Trumpo to have a current example and not revert to Hitler alone as a modern example. Then I wished to contrast the thing Paul spoke of – having confidence in the flesh – versus the real purpose of his visit; to teach the things the Pharisees had subverted for their own gain. Do you recall he called the Pharisees ‘whitened caskets’? He said things look pretty on the outside but inside they are rotten. You think it’s unfair of me picking on Trump? OK, change the name to anybody if you think Trump is too pure to criticize.
I can’t do a comparison of deities, that is Stucky’s bailiwick.
You are reaching for a false equivalence when you mention Hitler and Trump in same breath. Using that same logic I could say Jesus and Mohamed were cut from same cloth cuz the were both claiming to be divine. When anyone with a brain can see that they obviously weren’t.
Would it be be okay for me to do that? Cripes I just did. Please Vodka forgive me for mocking yer saviour again. I failed to keep my promise. Oh well, what is the point pretending. Geeze I get thumbs down for even saying Jesus might be a pussy… lol.
All fun amigo. Still this professing to others a faith makes for boring conversation. At least to me and it is what leads to the mockery that seems to grate on sooo many seeing the thumbs down in this thread for what I have to say..It should be deep held and personal not something advertised like a burger special at MacDonalds..
Hey maybe the path to heaven is thru a Gnostic Burger Joint in the Sky..
On thru the Golden Arches and to the Pearly Gates!
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” …. I could say Jesus and Mohamed were cut from same cloth cuz the were both claiming to be divine. ” ——- RiNS
Well, King Bobby Of Nova Scotia ……. old Mo’ never claimed to be the son of God, or immortal, and never said he should be worshiped as a God.
So, ‘Mo The Divine’ seems shaky.
Carry on …. just trying to get this post to 200. 🙂
lol
So whats up with Christ anyways. Son of God and all he could get up to is turn over a table or two in a temple and get nailed to a cross. Bush League if you ask me…So Mo wasn’t divine but didn’t he ride some sorta flying unicorn to heaven from The Dome of The Rock in Jerusalem.
My mistake as I am not a theologeon…. 🙂 My Bad..
Pftt… might not be the Son of Gawd but still he gets free ride to heaven. Proof I guess that Big Guy in Sky likes him better than his own Son. Still understandable after reading OT. Ole God has some attachment issues and a fairly robust vindictive streak. Geeze all Christ did was give everything and yet God tells him to find his own way to Heaven. Looks to me that the Big Guy no likey his only begotten Son. Therefore Ole Jesus was just a chump compared Mo-(Piss Be Upon Him)
So theres that…
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Picture of Mo on his Horse.
Yours In Odin,
King RiNS IV
on to 200…
Rins, there’s a lot of gods. I think they are all related, kinda like all the people in Arkansas.
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/names_gods.html
So many like Marduk, Ba’al, Asher, Ra and more are referred to in the old testament
Amundo, Asher is one of Jacob’s kids.
Thanks Mary
Interesting Chart. And you could be right.
The answer is 42.
Duh…
Douglas Adams “The Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy” (A trilogy)
I want to know which Bible. Which translation.?Which book of the bible.? Who did the translation and for whose benefit? Catholic, orthodox or protestant?. Never in a thousand years should you trust the written word unless you absolutely know where it is from and who wrote it! Muslim (monsters, morons) idiots will not offer any mercy! Nor should you. Fight for what you believe. If you don’t fight for it,literally or allegorically, what is it’s value? What are you and yours worth if you’re not willing to fight ?
If someone poses a physical threat I defend myself. Otherwise, I ignore my enemies. I’ve been fortunate enough that they’ve ignored me, to the point I’m not even sure who they are. I also don’t treat anyone as my enemy just become some leader or other asshole says a person or group is my enemy. That’s my stovetop wisdom for today. Good article. I’ll post it.
Thank you, Robert.
Can’t think of any adventure stories that beat the Book of Acts.
Turn the other cheek on one hand, yet:
And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
Bad ass if you ask me.
First to smack the banksters.
Everything about being a Man in one package. An example of Love, even if hurts, and righteous indignation when deserved. Impressive.
I think it is a greater sin to not stop evil when I can and if I have to use violence, the other party made that choice for me, so be it. I love Jesus and try to do things His way (I’ll try to quote you His words first) but I think my Father God wants me to be a man and not submit to evil as the first, second, third party whatever and I carry a .357 w/HPs. It isn’t God’s Kingdom on Earth yet so sometimes it requires violence to survive and be the Peacemaker.
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I knew if I looked long enough I would find this:
“I’ve addressed it before, this idea that God expects us to defend ourselves and others because of the image of God. But there is no end to the silly and trite pacifists who think they are being brave by eschewing self defense. So let’s say it again. Jesus demanded that his disciples seek weapons for their own defense, and not only did He do that, He told them to become criminals by doing so.
… for some evidence, see Digest 48.6.1: collecting weapons ‘beyond those customary for hunting or for a journey by land or sea’ is forbidden; 48.6.3.1 forbids a man ‘of full age’ appearing in public with a weapon (telum) (references and translation are from Mommsen 1985). See also Mommsen 1899: 564 n. 2; 657-58 n. 1; and Linderski 2007: 102-103 (though he cites only Mommsen). Other laws from the same context of the Digest sometimes cited in this regard are not as worthwhile for my purposes because they seem to be forbidding the possession of weapons with criminal intent. But for the outright forbidding of being armed while in public in Rome, see Cicero’s letter to his brother relating an incident in Rome in which a man, who is apparently falsely accused of plotting an assassination, is nonetheless arrested merely for having confessed to having been armed with a dagger while in the city: To Atticus, Letter 44 (II.24). See also Cicero, Philippics 5.6 (§17). Finally we may cite a letter that Synesius of Cyrene wrote to his brother, probably sometime around the year 400 ce. The brother had apparently questioned the legality of Synesius having his household produce weapons to defend themselves against marauding bands. Synesius points out that there are no Roman legions anywhere near for protection, but he seems reluctantly to admit that he is engaged in an illegal act (Letter 107; for English trans., see Fitzgerald 1926).
He told them it doesn’t matter what the state says. They are to arm themselves. Period. The most high God said so. It wasn’t an option. It was a commandment. And yet, we still see supposed Christians who are reluctant to arm up, raised in the “Jesus was a Bohemian Hippie Flower Child” culture of Christianity.”
He continues on regarding the rapture:
“But the second problem is one that is a bit harder to fisk. It has to do with eschatology. Bear with me for a moment. Millions upon millions of Christians in America believe in something called dispensationalist, premillennial eschatology. In brief, it holds that the Church is a “parenthesis” in history, a divine “uh oh.” Didn’t mean for that to happen. God’s people are still the Jews, and this parenthesis ends when he “raptures” the church out of the world and deals with Israel.
The church gets to sit on its ass, do nothing, watch stupid night time sitcoms, avoid affecting the world around them, and look like the rest of the world, and then avoid what it has created with its sloth, laziness and inaction. It’s a magic solution that let’s the church go blindly into the future thinking that everything is going to be okay regardless of what they do or don’t do.”
Ouch, rapture believers have been spanked! Fwiw, I do not have a certain fixed idea on eschatology. It’s too confusing.
Thanks for the tips about pix. I’ve done that with success in previous comments, but it doesn’t work in “Edit” mode (if you want to add a pic after the comment is already posted).
All I do Cubby is hit reply, hit clicking here and then cut, close and open comment to edit that is already posted and paste into body of text..
1. Click the reply button for a new comment
2. Click the “You can add images to your comment by clicking here”
3. Insert your photo link into the box and hit OK
4. Cut the new link from the new comment (this will include the required HTML formatting)
5. Go back to edit your first/original comment and paste the new link
I think he was testing the Russians to see how they would react. Got their attention.
EDIT 2130 – http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/13/trump-announces-u-s-military-strikes-in-syria.html See? Now he’s testing the SHIT out of them…
“This (once) great nation was built primarily on PRINCIPLES, and we all too willingly abandon them to our own peril.”
I think Trump is trying to get us back to what made this nation great in the first place. You’re ass backwards on this one, Stuck.
“I think Trump is trying to get us back to what made this nation great in the first place. You’re ass backwards on this one, Stuck.” —— Hammer’s Thor
Soooooo … a man with NO PRINCIPLES “is trying to get us back to what made this nation great “????
Good luck wif dat. Lemme know how that works out for ya.
Uncola,
I call Jesus, “My Commander”. I think of Him in this way now. He’s like my brother that happens to be the general that runs by your side in battle. Beyond my ability to keep up with. A guy that walked the perfect path, surfed the perfect wave of life. Died the perfect death. If we both believe that Jesus, Yeshua, a carpenter that lived in the middle east thousands of years ago, just happened to actually be God Himself; then we have to trust that his life was the best example of how we can live ours. The resounding theme of everything my Commander has taught me in this first life is “Don’t be afraid!’
I’ve been having a weird week. I’ve been pondering on the importance of each week lately and this week I am getting some lessons. Every day when I trek out to my spot in the woods to pray and meditate and take a few precious moments in silence I realize how far off the path I really am. I’m feeling like we are way closer to the final day then I originally figured. What will the elect do? What should the very few that follow the Way do? Do we fight? Flee? Find a new home on a distant shore, neo-pilgrims? I also am greatly dismayed at the state of my country. Tonight we are on the brink of World War III, or perhaps not but we are far beyond the point of fixing anything without sacrifice.
What should we do?
Offer our bodies as living sacrifices, this is our spiritual act of worship.
I have to focus on taking every single step correctly. Literally and spiritually. Our time is a finite resource and every single wrong choice can devastate faith, family, freedom. I’ve been thinking a lot of selling everything I own and getting a big boat. I don’t know how some followers manage but every moment for me has to be spent avoiding sin. I’ve been failing in my mission for far to long, but I’ve been turned around over a very strange year.
I’m trying to be clear minded and self controlled. A little better each day, each week. If I’m called to protect the weak, if what I love is threatened, I will not shirk that duty. I thought this very morning about a possible future. Abducted by police for refusing to pray like Daniel. Threatened with death, a guillotine. My prayer would be simple. Whatever you need from me, you’ve made me ready.
Thank you, Galicant. Although I’ve never vetted it personally, someone once told me the most frequent command by Jesus in the Bible was: “Do not be afraid.”
HR,
I hope you find this comment. I wanted to reply to your last, but no reply box below the text.
First off, let me tell you how much I appreciate the measured tone of your comment and the intelligent way in which you make your argument. It is refreshing to read calm, well-reasoned objections to ones own worldview. Your comment is the antithesis of some of the puerile claptrap masquerading as debate offered up by some I could name. (RiNS)
Also, thanks for clarifying what you see as the trap we are discussing. That was obviously not clear to me at the outset.
I have several objections to your line of thought, but don’t really have time to address them now. I hope we can get into it at a future date. It has to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the nature of the infallible transfer of revealed Truth down through the ages. Maybe I’ll post something on the subject and we can have some give and take on it. Perhaps sometime when the U.S. isn’t blowing shit up again. In the meanwhile my friend, be well.
X
Whatever rugger. Calling me names ain’t gonna make you right. And besides I understood before you what HR was getting at. So you can blow me! I am going end by saying the same thing about you and your compelling claptrap.
Putrile
Yours in Odin,
RiNS
I have no better place to put this, so I leave it here for your enjoyment.
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I just felt moved to write it while reading this book.
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My father was a hard hat diver in the Navy during the 1950s. He never told me much about it, aside from a few stories about jobs he worked on. He had pictures of his time salvaging the USS Wasp after she collided with and cut in half the USS Hobson in 1952. It must have made a great impression on him, because he kept a copper Mark IV diving helmet on a stand in his workshop and he occasionally told me stories about the Navy and his later work as a sponge diver in Tarpon Springs. He always loved the Navy and the sea. I went Army, myself, but I’ve always loved the sea and I have a healthy respect for the US Navy.
Anyway, I was going through some of his books. Among them, I found an ancient one, “On The Bottom,” by Commander Edward Ellsberg. Published in 1929, it details his account of the mission he led to salvage the lost S51, a Navy submarine lost in September, 1925 due to a night time collision with the steamer, City of Rome, off Block Island.
CDR Ellsberg took a small flotilla of vessels and every Navy hardhat diver he could lay hands on out to the ocean off New York to try and salvage the S51. Upon investigation, she was found to be lying in 140 feet of water. What followed was a dangerous, challenging salvage job beset with awful weather, powerful currents, and the limited technology available in 1926.
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Reading CDR Ellsberg’s account of the difficulties they faced, the constantly changing weather, and the serious threat posed by working 140′ below the surface was amazing. He had to overcome the limited tools and machinery, and the dearth of trained deep water divers, and the fact that nobody really knew what the limits were. Their known, safe time tables only allowed for 1 hour dives to the bottom, followed by 2+ hours of decompression time. I knew the work was dangerous, I’ve often heard stories about sailors who lost their balance, slipped and fell off a reef, and ended up being crushed into their helmets, but I had no idea just how awful the work was until I read CDR Ellsberg’s account.
CDR Ellsberg describes the conditions below, in which he also dove (you gotta respect a leader who does exactly what he expects his subordinates to do), as dark, lonely, dangerous, and difficult as hell. 140′ was so deep, their issued lights were so weak and the water so murky, they hardly illuminated targets, even when just inches away. They were doing fine work with tools, ropes, small fittings, etc, but the water was so freezing cold, they had to wear gloves and the 2 fingered mitten-type rubber and canvas gloves of the dive suit. The metal breastplate, collar, and helmet ensured they couldn’t reach above their shoulders to do work, also. If they bent over, crawled, or layed down to do work, which was practically all the time while worming their way in, under, and around the wreck, they faced leaks from the suit, which slowly filled up the suit around their body, soaking and freezing them.
They also had to be ever mindful of their safety line and air hose, lest they lose their only connection to the surface. Worse, if they wanted to actually communicate with the surface (they had a telephone in their helmets), they had to reach up and turn off their air valve to be heard!
The pressure was so bad, some men became ill as soon as they arrived on the bottom. Nearly all of them were disoriented on the bottom, too, and it was common for divers to lose awareness of which hand was their left and right. Even when the dive was over, and they were on the stage being slowly raised to the surface, disaster could strike. One diver had his exhaust valve plugged by mud from the seafloor. He tried to tell the surface to cut off his air, but they didn’t understand his garbled communications. His suit inflated like a balloon before he could stop it, forcing his arms and legs out, making it impossible to reach the air supply valve. He started to float up at full speed, but managed to wedge his lead boot toe under the steel rail holding up his stage. There, he dangled for precious moments while his suit kept inflating and started to stretch to nearly double its length! He was literally at the bottom of the suit, while the helmet and breast plate stretched away above him. His shipmate didn’t immediately notice his departure, so wasn’t sure what the problem was when the surface started calling. Meanwhile, the diver, desperate and sure he was doomed, couldn’t do anything else but wait for his boot to break off, his suit to explode, for him to ram at full speed into the bottom of the ship above him, or for him to surface and suffer a deadly case of the Bends. His suit did rupture, but he had the presence of mind to hold his breath and the surface just managed to haul him up in time to save him. That guy cheated death 4 different ways in that one minute or so.
Another sailor manhandled a 300 pound hatch cover across the deck of the crippled submarine, attempting to finish an otherwise long and difficult task. For overstaying his 1 hour on the bottom and overexerting himself, he suffered permanent heart damage and was never allowed to deep dive again.
Technology also limited them. For instance, their dive lights were designed for shallow water and couldn’t handle the pressure. One light was so powerful, the heat from the bulb melted the pressure-proof water-proof seal and caused every lamp they tried to fail. Their personal experience and suggestions were incorporated into new lamps.
They had to jury rig a lot of solutions, such as how to get giant steel airtight pontoons to lower safely to the seafloor, how to get them chained to the sub, and how to fill them with air and safely raise the sub without losing control of it. CDR Ellsberg designed and operated his own special oxy-acetalyne-nitrogen underwater torch to replace the inefficient Navy one. One difficult task they had was how to dig a tunnel under the sub to run a massive chain strong enough to lift the sub and hold the lifting pontoons.
Their solution was to use a firehose to blast a tunnel out from under the sub, but the standard 100lbs pressure through a firehose and nozzle required 4 men on the surface to keep it under control, which wasn’t possible at 140 feet below sea level. The first time they tried it, the diver was blown 100 yards back from the sub and left disoriented.
Eventually, a bright sailor took a brass billet and fashioned his own solution, similar to a good rifle muzzle break, with a nozzle for the primary stream out the front and multiple ports around the sides which allowed pressure to blow to the sides and rear while permitting the rest out the front. That solution allowed one diver to control over 150lbs of pressure in the hose single-handed. In fact, the diver maxxed out the ship’s water pump. They got up to 200lbs and red-lined the pump until it exploded, blowing the cast iron casing to pieces. Sailors then fabricated a replacement out of boiler plate (in just 4 hours!) and had the divers back to work. You have to respect that kind of hard work. Today, I doubt it would go down that way. It would take meetings and safety walkdowns and going through supply for replacements and more safety walkdowns.
The limits were practically unknown, too. They knew they could do 1 hour down there safely and have their standard 2 hours+ of decompression on the way back up. They had a decompression chamber on the surface, too. The divers, however, were so dedicated to getting the job done, they routinely exceeded their mandatory return times. They routinely violated orders to stay down longer and complete their tasks. One pair stayed down an amazing 3 hours and were forced to endure 9 hours of decompression as a result. Even the CDR put himself on the line, famously going down during a gale to use a torch to cut the signal mast off the stern of the sub to prevent it from damaging one of the steel pontoons. He was literally hanging from the stern by one arm while reaching down with the torch in the other to complete the cut when they had to yank him from the bottom so they could run for safety.
This is a great book! I can see why my dad liked it so much. It’s not a great adventure, it’s not a war story, and it’s not a dry military report. It’s just CDR Ellsberg’s story of what happened and how he and his sailors tried to recover the sub. Reading about the many trials and tribulations of the salvage operation and how they dealt with them made me very proud. Reading about how hard the sailors pushed themselves just because it was their job made me proud. They were not going to get anything special if they succeeded. Early on, one diver exceeded safety limits to get a job done just as a Thank You to CDR Ellsberg for being granted liberty. Seeing these awful challenges and their triumphs and how dedicated they were to completing their task, which took 2 seasons to complete, was touching. They did an incredible job and it makes me proud of the Navy and all those hard hat divers and my dad and the men of my nation in general for their historic ability to take on incredible challenges and try and try and try to succeed, even against ridiculous odds and terrible situations.
http://www.edwardellsberg.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_S-51_(SS-162)
https://books.google.com/books?id=qvEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA394&dq=Popular+Science+1933+plane+%22Popular+Mechanics%22&hl=en&ei=28UKTt_IKIrEsQK0nu2XAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=true
https://www.commercialdivingacademy.com/underwater-salvage-uss-s51.cms
That is fascinating, but all it says to me is that men can easily be convinced to sacrifice themselves in order to benefit others in ways they are prevented from understanding/
To Gilbert: That was great. You should ask admin to make that a stand-alone post so more people could see it and comment.
To xrugger: Justin Smith could not have said it better. ?