Guest Post by Eric Peters
The death of the perpetually tardy Model 3 may ultimately have less to do with it being an overpriced electric car than with something even more lethal to its chances . . .
It’s a too-small sedan.
Electric or not, they aren’t selling. Even the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord – both of them just redesigned – are experiencing sales dips. If these formerly perennial hot-sellers are in trouble, it’s a clue that something is seriously awry with this kind of car rather than any particular car.
It is my sincere desire to provide readers of this site with the best unbiased information available, and a forum where it can be discussed openly, as our Founders intended. But it is not easy nor inexpensive to do so, especially when those who wish to prevent us from making the truth known, attack us without mercy on all fronts on a daily basis. So each time you visit the site, I would ask that you consider the value that you receive and have received from The Burning Platform and the community of which you are a vital part. I can't do it all alone, and I need your help and support to keep it alive. Please consider contributing an amount commensurate to the value that you receive from this site and community, or even by becoming a sustaining supporter through periodic contributions. [Burning Platform LLC - PO Box 1520 Kulpsville, PA 19443] or Paypal
-----------------------------------------------------
To donate via Stripe, click here.
-----------------------------------------------------
Use promo code ILMF2, and save up to 66% on all MyPillow purchases. (The Burning Platform benefits when you use this promo code.)
Others are spiraling toward the ground at freefall speed, like a plane with both wings shot off. Ford, as most everyone has heard, is going to stop making sedans – period. Death warrants have been signed for the Taurus and Fusion. Cadillac just cancelled the unloved ATS. The Chevy Impala will soon sleep with the fishes.
The why is easy enough to understand. Most new sedans are too small – for people and for cargo.
Especially mid-size sedans in the family car price range like the Camry, Accord and its various rivals. Consider the specifications of the Camry in relation to the crossover SUV it’s related to, the RAV4.
The Camry is 192.7 inches long overall vs. 183.5 inches for the RAV4 – but the Camry is less roomy inside, particularly for cargo. It has a comparatively measly 15.6 cubic foot trunk with limited access vs. 38.4 cubic feet of space behind the RAV4’s second row, which can be folded flat to expand that space to 73.4 cubic feet. Whip out your calculator and do some quick division. The RAV4 has almost five times the cargo space than the much longer (and so less easy to park) Camry’s got.
This is a big deal for families who need space – and appreciate the versatility.
The RAV and other crossovers have something else the Camry hasn’t got: The option to buy all-wheel-drive. This feature is available with almost every crossover on the market – even the low-cost models. But very few sedans in the family car class/price range even offer it.
Now consider the Model 3.
It is a smaller sedan, with even less room for passengers and cargo than sedans like the Camry and Accord – most notably for the backseat passengers. It has only 35.2 inches of legroom, almost three full inches less than the Camry offers (38 inches) and with the same relative deficit of cargo capacity vs. a comparably sized (or even smaller-sized) crossover like the RAV4.
No all-wheel-drive, either.
Worse, from the standpoint of a mass-market car – which is how Elon is marketing the Model 3 – it is a rear-drive car.
Performance car fans prefer rear-drive for the high-speed handling advantage of divorcing the wheels which steer from the wheels which propel, but this comes at the cost of wet and snow-day traction. Everyone who knows even a little bit about cars knows that rear-drive cars are not-great in the wet and helpless when it snows.
In inclement weather, it is better to be pulled than pushed.
The Model 3 will have the compensating factor of having its electric motors rear-mounted, like an old VW Beetle’s engine. This weights the rear-drive car’s usually light rear end and so enhances traction. But unlike the rear-engined/rear-drive Beetle – which was good in the snow – the Model 3 will not have tall and thin pizza-pan wheels that cut through the snow to the road below.
That was the real key to the old rear-drive Beetle’s winter-weather tenacity.
No one – including Tesla – mounts such sensible wheels (and tires) on cars anymore. Especially Tesla. The Model 3 comes standard with 18×8.5-inch wheels (wider than the Camry’s standard 17 inch wheels) fitted with short sidewall performance tires that will steamroller and slide all over the road when it snows. The Model 3’s standard wheel/tire package is almost as functionally absurd as its electric powertrain, which takes 12 hours to recharge completely on standard household current.
And it sits low to the ground, compounding the poor-weather problem.
Crossovers – even the front-wheel-drive ones – sit higher up, and that clearance is a big help in poor weather. People also seem to prefer sitting up high, because they are able to see better. Crossovers fit the bill. Low-riding rear-drive luxury-sport sedans don’t.
And that italicized thing may be the final thing, nail-in-the-coffin wise. Not just for the Model 3 but for today’s sedans generally. They have all become luxury-sport sedans – BMW emulators in looks as well as how they ride and how tight they are inside. Their “sporty” center consoles and low rooflines combine to produce a claustrophobic effect, even when there is generous legroom – as in the new Camry (but not in the Model 3).
Meanwhile, Americans have grown larger. They do not fit comfortably in luxury-sport sedans, especially the mid-sized and smaller ones, like the Tesla 3.
Particularly in the back seat.
The Tesla 3 would probably fail for all of these reasons even if it weren’t an electric car.
Now add to the mix that it is an electric car. An expensive electric car.
Let’s see: Cramped, terrible in poor weather and costs a small fortune…
Toyota and Honda are having trouble selling the less-cramped, decent in poor weather and far more affordable Camry and Accord sedans. Which don’t take 12 hours to recover their wind before you can get back on the road.
People holding Tesla stock might want to give it some thought.
Great article , Eric, many thanks. You must have done lots of research to produce all those figures and your logic is indisputable. Elon is a dead man walking, and I think he knows it.
I have lived long enough to remember DeLorean and Enron – Elon makes a great combination of the two.
Tesla’s toast (no pun intended.)
Melba’s toast. Tesla’s Tucker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_48
He’s probably losing interest in cars. It’s all about digging holes under L.A. now.
Attention span of a gnat.
SUVs are for fat, stupid white men afraid of snow trying to compensate with a BIG vehicle for their SMALL talleywhackers.
……..and since you on here and the first thing you mention are stupid white men and their peckers, you must be a socialist democrat from another fucking frigid cold or rainy ass state or a state where it’s burning up, or washing away in mud slides, and over run by tuberculosis-infestated wet backs. All you people want to do is bitch about are white people and small penises. Do you think that any normal Americans especially those from the South give a flying fuck about these social perspectives?
Sez the guy who likely drives a pickup…
For fuck sakes Fulton, if you are going to insult folks, especially in this joint, you best up yer game cuz using tallywacker, Bhwahahaha!, instead of cock, shlong, pecker… just makes you look like an insufferable twat and dick
Yes, when I bought a 5 speed V6 Chevrolet K1500 it had 35 miles on the odometer. It’s now over 317,000 miles, all put on it by me. I try to make friends with people who have a dozen or so in their yard for they always have out buildings full of spare parts. They always love mine when I pull up in the driveway.
Coal we are Birds of a feather, pardon the pun, I’m driving a 5 speed V6 Ford Ranger. I too have had it since new but have a ways to go to catch you. I only have 230,000 kms on mine. Still driving it and plan to keep it for many moar. Nothing better than driving a beat up old truck. The guys I know make fun of it since it is old, not a V8 and not shiny. But I like the low monthly payments.
78,000 for a new 3 series! Wow! What kinda person has that type of money to throw away.
Tesla is toast..
You sound bitter.
Dicks are over-rated. A penis is a semen delivery system. The pleasure it gives a woman is secondary. Ungrateful creatures can get their rocks off and scrape the last dollar bill off your hide. Fuck them, keep your dick in your pants until they pay for it with dinner, a clean house, a cheerful word, peace and quiet, etc.
Boss – who are you going to please with that little thing?
Co-worker – me!
I pissed off the sexy mulatta because I went into a rant over a large truck that was around two stories high. I was raving like a racist seeing a ghetto negro with a pregnant blonde. The reason I started bitching was because the license plate said – WAS HIS. I guess, like BB, I too need deliverance.
Varmit don’t be so hard in yerself as your rage wasn’t misplaced. As for deliverance no need to fret, you are in good company. Most folks need deliverance and probably on the main the reason why I am still lurking here….
You made me laugh with that bit. Thanks Man!
Yours in Odin,
RiNS
You sound like you don’t get much consensual sex.
I have a 2018 Subaru Outback, fully loaded. Nicer than my Volvo. It has a 275 HP / 6 cylinder / normally aspirated / Boxer engine, all wheel symmetrical drive, tons of safety features, Bluetooth, all leather interior, etc.
I believe smaller SUV’s / Crossovers are what cars are needed to do. Whether it’s Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi – about 50% of the cars I see on the road are these ‘crossovers’.
Musk’s cars are out of date. Might be good for Commiefornia. I hear the Model 3 may cost upwards of $60k. Then also all the other manufacturers are going to offer BEV (battery electric vehicles) in the next year.
I would love to buy a Subaru but my husband is tall and doesn’t fit in any of their current offerings. Subaru sucks for not letting you opt out of the sunroof on anything except the base model with the crappy engine. The other Japanese car makers are no better. Seriously Toyota, you want nearly 40K for a Camry V6 and the rear passenger seat doesn’t fold down? FU…I’m not buying a car I can’t bring minor home improvement items home in my own car, and it’s not cool these days how almost all car makers make you take a panoramic sunroof on pretty much every model except the base.
I switched from cars to SUVs on our last 2 vehicles purchases because I wanted head room, ground clearance and no sunroof. I wouldn’t consider an EV because I don’t need the hassle.
Crick, Subaru just brought out a larger SUV.
I did a terrible thing to a wonderful doo wop song, using it to mock Fuckerberg.
In truth, I usually sing it like this:
Subaru
Soob, Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Subaru
Soob, Soob, Subaru
As I cruise through this world
Nothing can stop my Subaru
And you, you are my wheels
No one can hurt you, oh, no
It’s a guy thing, you might not understand but your hubs will.
I understand they have never had a recall.
Peters is just making stuff up in the last few articles. BMW just had a record year selling 3 Series last year. That would be the direct comparison to the model 3, not a Toyota. “The death of the perpetually tardy Model 3 may ultimately have less to do with it being an overpriced electric car than with something even more lethal to its chances . . .It’s a too-small sedan.Electric or not, they aren’t selling.” Tesla has a waiting list for model threes nearly a half-million deep. They unload truck loads of them every week down the street from me. And every one of them is already sold. Sorry Eric, you are divorced from reality.
Tesla’s waiting list – he’s never going to deliver enough / soon enough / at a price point.
Dutch, it’s happening right under your nose, you just don’t recognize the organized effort to destroy it
Star – the only ones being delivered are the high end $78k versions. And very few at that. They are truly fucked.
https://www.recode.net/2018/5/22/17365734/telsa-elon-musk-model-3-new-targets
BMW sold around 400k series 3 in 2017.They have economies of scale that Tesla does not have. When the Tesla fans get their cars, who will buy the $78k model 3s?
Star – bullshit. In 2014 BMW sold 142k series 3 in the US. Last year? 99k. That is a 30% drop. Oops. The internet is your friend. And I have a seriously good bullshit detector.
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/
Tesla is toast.
That’s not even close to accurate. BMW sells four or five hundred thousand 3 Series every year, and have for a long time. I’ll see if I can try and find the article that said they had a record last year. Tesla is up to 3500 model 3’s a week right now, after their next little revamp that they’ve got coming up beginning of June, they should be up to five or six thousand a week. Do the math at 40 grand or so each. As long as people keep buying them as fast as they can make them, a year or two of that and they’re home free. The only number that matters in the short term for Tesla is the top line, and they’ve about got that beat. Let’s wait until they report their 2nd quarter numbers, I think you’ll be shocked. And at that rate they should have about 2 years of orders still in the can.
Star – I posted the fucking link. They sell 400k a year world-wide. For fuck sake, get a damn clue. Those numbers are easy to find. Here is a wiki link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series
Other links are easily available.
Re Tesla, they shipped around 6000 3s total in April. Your 5,000 number a week is bullshit. They built more than that, but shipped a lot less. But they did not come close to 5,000 a week.
When you post bullshit and claim it as data, when the facts are easily verifiable, you destroy your credibility and argument.
Here it is again:US BMW series 3 sales have dropped from 142k in 2014 to 99k in 2017, with worldwide sales around 400k. Tesla shipped somewhere around 6000 model threes in April, maybe made as may as 10,000. Your 5,000 number a week is bullshit, as any quick search will verify.
Here is very recent news,a few hrs old: “During the company’s most recent earnings report, we learned that Model 3 production reached 2,270 units per week by the end of April. More recently, a leaked email from Elon Musk revealed that Tesla was on the cusp of manufacturing 3,500 units per week”. Still a long way from 5000, but better. Let us see if they can make them for $38k.
You’re misunderstanding me. Musk said they would hit 3500 this week, and after their next retool shut down at the beginning of the month they should exceed 5000 a week. If he’s correct, and he’s been working this 7 days a week for a couple months getting the bugs out of their system, I think he’s over the hump. Let’s put off speculation, and see what kind of numbers he has at the end of June. That should be the whole ball game right there. What bullshit have I posted?
You said “that is not even close to accurate”. It in fact was entirely accurate. You said series 3 BMW sales were up, when in fact they collapsed in the US. And are well below records world-wide. You apparently seem to think that Series 3 sell 400k a year in the US, based on me clearly saying series 3 US sales were 99k in 2017, and then you saying 400k.
The market for high dollar smallish cars in the US is fairly small. And sales of such are dropping.
I classify those efrors as bullshit, especially given you are using them to defend your position.
What did I ever say about the fucking US? I said BMW sales 4-500,000 3 series units a year. Where are we disagreeing with one another? Whether it’s a record, who knows? I’m not going to waste my time fact-checking every single thing I read. It doesn’t matter anyway. All that matters is that Tesla gets their model 3 production to 5000 a week. Might happen by the end of next month. If it does, and Tesla continues to sell every car they produce, they are good. I see written all over the place that they have to refinance 300 million dollars in August. That’s one week’s cash flow. They don’t have to refinance a thing. They just write the check. BMW 3 series sales are going to collapse . The Tesla Model 3 is the reason. Watch
10 top executives hitting the road over the last few months is certainly a sign of good times ahead. It’s not rats abandoning ship before it sinks. Full speed ahead. Elon Musk is a genius who somehow has time to make hundreds of tweets per day about the press and his enemies.
@Starfcker
I am old enough to remember the details of John DeLorean’s sad example, a pattern that might be repeating for Elon – give it time:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/great-financial-disasters-of-our-time-the-delorean-fiasco-back-to-the-future-1173225.html
That’s a completely stupid comparison
OK, Star, perhaps you’re right so what parallel would you draw?
Instead of a parallel, let me leave you with three thoughts. It’s always darkest before the dawn. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. And read today’s quite accurate article that Jim posted on Tesla
Thanks Star, yep I did read that and I see what you mean. There are other angles to consider and Jim’s article was very much on the button. I reserve my judgement pro temp.
I have a personal interest in Elon’s progress ( and wish him well) because I knew his father in South Africa (he bought my yacht at the False Bay Yacht Club in 2006). I hope and pray that Elon doesn’t lose it but his behaviour recently is not encouraging. And his father Errol is unfortunate in getting some very bad press recently. I feel for them both.
The article misses the most important point: the Model 3 will catch fire, burn faster, and most likely kill all the vehicle’s occupants when involved in an accident, making it the perfect gift for that spouse you can’t afford to divorce.
9 out of 10 Crispy Critters bought Tesla…..That will be their new ad campaign .
Star continues to defend a complete fiasco.
What people don’t understand is that when you buy a Tesla, you don’t just get a car, you get a mobile crematory.
Trapped- What happened to the .gov safety council that is ‘sposed to look out for our safety? The pinto was crucified right out of the market for being a death trap.
Crickets from the safety police.
Bea, gasoline tends to burn a lot more than batteries do. They have cut highway fires in half in the last 30 years, there are still close to 200,000 a year. They have cut deaths from about 800 down to about 300. And that’s in the United States. Those kids that died here in town a couple weeks ago, they were hauling ass. I spun a Porsche Turbo into that same wall 30 years ago. it’s an easy spot to make a mistake at high speed. I saw the burn marks on the road yesterday from the Tesla on the way to the beach. It’s sad, but that curve has killed dozens over the years.
Star- does it really matter if people are burned alive from gasoline or battery fires? Either way they are dead in a way that is beyond horrific. How many Teslas have to crash and burn killing trapped passengers before there is a call for a modification to battery breaches?
Any vehicle that is so flawed as to be a death trap should be taken off the road.
I don’t think they’re that flawed, Bea. the three or four people that have died in Tesla’s have died in really violent wrecks. They probably would have died anyway just from the trauma. The spot where the Fort Lauderdale kids died, I can remember a famous wreck back when I was in high school, Leo Goodwin, the kid of the guy who founded Geico, famously killed a couple of people in his Ferrari Dino at that same spot, and was banned from driving in Florida forever. I think he OD’d a couple years later and died.
Star- Five people died in Teslas in 2016, the four deaths this year were not all from excessive speed, one guy died going regular speed limit and hit a concrete barrier on the interstate. There are only 150,000 Teslas on the road out of all the millions of vehicles in the US which is very few and yet there seems to be constant stories of horrible deaths in these cars.
Good point, BL, when we scale it up to projected production/sales numbers on the roads in future the results may be a flaming catastophe. The safety issues are really important – even if they do fix them – recalls would be extremely expensive and hit any final bottom line.
Bea, if you aim your car at a solid concrete abuttment at 70, you just might die.
Yes, yes, yes, but Peters is forgetting the value of Tesla’s free cremation package.
Greetings,
I suspect Tesla will hit some sort of wall unless very intensive infrastructure projects are undertaken to electrify every parking space in the nation and figure out how to bill for it. If you live in an apartment then it is not possible to charge your car. If you live in dense urban areas then it is not possible to charge your car. If you live in a home or neighborhood with crappy wiring then good luck charging the 7000 lithium batteries without burning everything to the ground.
I live in the most fart sniffing liberal Hollywood fantasy land that one might imagine and there isn’t a single charging station that I’m aware of anywhere near me.
‘Star’ doesn’t agree
Again Mr. Peters tries to blend his ideology with a vehicle analogy and fails miserably. The traditional family sedan isn’t declining in sales because of the size. If that were true they’d be selling more today than ever since the Camry/Accord/Altima/Fusion are all larger than their predecessors 10-20 years ago. I used to drive a ’99 Accord and by comparison to current model year sedans it’s a compact. Go sit in a VW Passat. That thing is literally enormous inside for what most would consider a mid-sized sedan. Sure, the body-on-frame RWD land barges died in the 80’s with exception of the Crown Vic which soldiered on for a while but they weren’t selling in massive numbers for that massive trunk so Ford killed that vehicle. Your thesis is flawed sir.
CUV’s are selling big because they are the new car. Madison Ave. has done a very good job of making those vehicles popular. AWD is not necessary for the vast majority of drivers. Nor is the cargo room. It’s personal preference to sit higher, social status, groupthink, etc. more often than the “I need more room.” If that were the major purchasing factor out there minivans would be in vouge because they are way bigger than any SUV/CUV.
AND don’t forget putting truck tires on cars means a mfr. can sell basically the same vehicle for 10’s of thousands more. The Highlander is a Camry with big tires. Go look at what they sell for.
CUV’s are much more profitable for the manufacturers so they don’t mind traditional sedans are dying. Ford is killing their “cars” because they aren’t making money on them. They don’t care because they are selling millions of “cars” with the label Explorer or Escape on them.
AWD not necessary. I beg to differ…. I got an AWD Fusion. The thing drives like a tank. The only problem with it is the car will go places the plastic bumper won’t. I have replaced it three times because when it is 20 below the chunks of ice on road is as hard as granite. If you are unfortunate and hit a chunk the fucken bumper, a term used loosely, shatters like plates at a Greek wedding.
It will be last car I buy cuz I am tired of paying 2 Grand to fix it every time it breaks.
[img[/img]
So your thesis is flawed. When they put real bumpers on the front of cars again I will buy another. In the meantime next vehicle will be an AWD SUV…
and Tesla is toast!
Bravo BL!
Keep preaching the ((TRUTH)!!