If a Tree Falls in a Forest…

Guest Post by Jeff Thomas

In the late eighteenth century, Bishop George Berkeley posed the question,

“If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?”

Since that time, generations of university philosophy professors have required their students to consider the question. Countless classroom time has been taken up in pondering it. In many cases, students would be required to write a report containing their answer and they might even be graded on it.

Of course, this is the world of academia, which consists almost entirely of theory, not practical application. But, in the functioning world, it makes not the slightest difference whether the tree makes a sound or not. The lumberjack who actually encounters the tree is unconcerned with the philosophical question. He only cares that he has a tree he can cut.

He represents those who produce, rather than those who theorise.

And so it is with the field of International Diversification. It can be described as taking place in three stages:

People Leave an Empire Quietly

Typically, when a country (or empire) has been corrupted by its leaders to such a degree that it’s reaching its sell-by date, some people begin to see the writing on the wall. Although many remain at home, complaining bitterly that their leaders are selling them out, a smaller number of people recognise that the country has passed the point of no return and make the choice to leave the dying leviathan rather than go down with it.

We’re presently passing through such a period in which a significant number of people will be leaving the countries of their birth, particularly those countries that were once referred to as the “Free World.”

But, this is nothing new. For millennia, countries and, indeed, empires, have self-destructed with regularity and, in each case, those who realise that the livability of those countries is about to end, begin their exodus. At first, they’re few in number; then, as the writing on the wall becomes increasingly visible, more leave. In the final stage of exodus, major events occur, making it blindingly obvious to a large percentage of the population that their place of residence is about to become considerably less livable.

In this final stage, there’s often a flood of people who attempt to exit; however, it’s often the case that, just prior to this time, two things occur:

First, the leaders of the country that’s in decline pass legislation that’s designed to keep their minions in and, second, those countries that previously welcomed a small number of new residents realise that they may soon be faced with a flood of arrivals. They then pull in the “welcome” mat and close the door to further grants of residency.

And, so, those who leave early and leave quietly, tend to be those who are successful, repatriating themselves to one of the countries that’s relatively freer at that point in time. They then set up shop, begin to invest and produce, and take advantage of that greater freedom.

The Exodus Is Not Noted as Having Importance

Typically, when the period is written up later in the history books, little note is made of the exodus.

Why should this be? After all, those who leave are often the best and brightest – those who had the vision to see the future. Not coincidentally, such people also tend to be those who come up with the new ideas; pushing technology, investment and production forward. These people therefore tend to be those who create the prosperity that makes a country great.

So, why is this important occurrence so seldom noted?

Well, at the time, everyone is wrapped up in the excitement of events that are unfolding in a major way. The news media tend to focus on the events themselves, and the fear, anger and confusion that are generated. The exit of a relatively small percentage of productive people is not as compelling as those who are storming the Bastille or those who are promoting themselves as the next leaders, based upon promises of radical change.

The exodus, therefore becomes a marginal event, not worthy of concern or discussion.

No Lesson Is Learned

When the history is written, the focus is on the more exciting events, the names of the primary figures and the devastation that has occurred. And those who read that history, learn only what’s been made available to them.

In studying history, we see mentions of the productive class making an early exit in each instance, but in almost every case, this is treated by the historian as a footnote.

This is most unfortunate, as when, for example, much of the merchant class quietly exited Rome in its latter days, it did not merely represent the loss of a body of reliable taxpayers, it assured that, when the most productive citizens had gone, there would be no one to rebuild Rome after its decline and fall.

The result was that Rome never returned to its former glory. And this held true for the Ottoman Empire, the Spanish Empire, the British Empire, and so on down the line.

The flip-side of this is that, when the leavers arrived at their new destination, they then did what they’re best at – building, investing and producing. This acted like a shot in the arm for their new countries, helping them to rise up even as their former country was crumbling.

And so, we’re presently witnessing the next iteration of that repeating occurrence.

Thousands of people are exiting the former Free World for the opportunity to expand, invest and produce elsewhere on the globe. Their numbers are on the increase and yet, the exodus goes without notice.

Like a tree falling in a forest, it occurs, for the most part, unheard. Most likely, the academics of the future will pay it little mind, yet, in any era, whenever one country or empire falls, another invariably rises to take its place. And this happens, in part because a new destination offers the freedoms that are ending in the previous location and, in part because a “brain drain” from the former jurisdiction to the new one takes place.

For the sake of history, it’s unfortunate that this ever-repeating occurrence receives minimal notice.

But, for the individual, it’s especially unfortunate, as the historic certainty of it informs us that it’s those who vote with their feet at such a time that create and receive the direct benefits of the next renaissance.

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455Kc
455Kc

Of course the falling tree makes a sound; whether the sound is heard is dependent on whether there is a pair of ears close enough to hear the sound.

If I were a teacher my class would be learning about the dynamics of sound waves, some unfamiliar math concepts, and even a little bit about statistics. I would also advise my listeners that those jokers over in the philosophy class will be sponging off them the rest of their lives if the let it happen.

Hollywood Rob

This is, of course, correct. The tree falling and the attendant sound have nothing to do with ears. The sound will be made. Humans are not required for this to happen. It is just a stupid a philosophical question as the chicken and the egg question. There were eggs for millions of years before the chicken reached the evolutionary point where humans called them chicken and ate their eggs. So of course the egg came first.

EL Cibernetico
EL Cibernetico

When I was in grade school, the question was – does it make a noise? The answer is no because noise is subjective.

Hollywood Rob

Well, NO. Let’s refer to Wikipedia; Noise is unwanted sound judged to be unpleasant, loud or disruptive to hearing. From a physics standpoint, noise is indistinguishable from sound, as both are vibrations through a medium, such as air or water. So you could suggest that noise is subjective because it is unwanted sound, but it can be unwanted sound without anyone hearing it. It’s properties don’t change when a listener is present.

The sound, or noise, of the falling tree is produced whether it is heard or not. And while we all like that particular line, and it is indeed true that sound does not propagate through a vacuum, in that particular movie we managed to hear every single scream that was produced. That was, of course, because those screams were in the air inside the ship.

EL Cibernetico
EL Cibernetico

If Eric the Red landed in Nova Scotia, did he discover America?

Hollywood Rob

Yes, but did he know it, and did he do anything about it? Let’s ask RiNS

razzle
razzle

No… it makes a vibration. All sounds are caused by vibrations, but not all vibrations cause sounds.

Ya’ll are dolts that don’t get the point of the question even though it’s the philosophical equivalent of 1+1. It is intended to get the student to understand the importance of 1) precise definitions and 2) perception versus projection.

455Kc
455Kc

Precise definitions or accurate definitions? There is a difference.

razzle
razzle

In the context of where the question is posed (a philosophy course)… precise. The first thing the student is expected to learn is any conversation about the question is moot until they have reached an agreement among each other on what is meant by “sound”. This is largely clued in via the “to hear” portion.

The other half is learning how to avoid evaporating into meaninglessness in the other direction and endlessly debating “what is it to hear”, because that is NOT what the question is posing.

If they can agree that “to hear” is perceiving a sound, and that the precise definition of sound they are agreed to is perceptible vibrations to “someone commonly understood to perceive in a limited range”… and not a body of water… or a machine capable of printing data indicating the measurement of vibration but otherwise has no awareness of the measurement… etc… then the philosophical question becomes simple.

— If sound = audible vibrations, then no… the tree does not make a sound.
— If sound = vibrations… then yes the tree does make a sound.
— If sound = body of water… then no the tree does not make a sound, though it might make a puddle if the ground is particularly soggy.

The point of the question is not the answer, but the process of reaching meaningful answers shareable with others.

M G
M G

Some things people know.

http://www.rfwireless-world.com/Terminology/SONAR-vs-RADAR.html

Following are the types of SONAR.
• Active Sonar
• Passive Sonar
• Hand-held Sonar
• Intercept Sonar

Following are the features of common RADAR system.
• Radar stands for Radio Detection and Ranging.
• It uses electromagnetic waves (i.e. radio waves) in frequency range from 3 MHz to 300 GHz.
• The radar transmits waves at about 300 x 106 meters/second in the air.
• Radar supports greater range.
• Radar can be jammed and consecutively affected by electronic counter-measures (i.e. use of jamming EM waves), but it is unaffected by birds.

Unless the birds fly into the engine on takeoff.

I was volunteering at the Veterans Hospital in OKC that day because of the mess from the Murrah Building earlier in April. When an AWACS plane crashed in Alaska and the world’s attention was on fertilizer bombs and something called thermite, and Timothy McVeigh became public enemy number one, no one heard.

No one found that John Doe # 2. No One thinks they know who it was.

MeG

RIP BK, Chuck, Mark, Tim, Josh, omg… so many I can’t name them right now. Grooch or I knew them because we could have been them.

Hollywood Rob

Oh for god’s sake Maggie. Stop with the “I was in the military” crap. I actually was in the Navy and actually did fly on P3’s and even the old P2 and I can tell that you are just making this all up. You are belittling the time that real military people spent in the real military.

EL Cibernetico
EL Cibernetico
Better to be thought one
Better to be thought one

than speak and prove you are one.

Stucky

“I can tell that you are just making this all up.”

1. Maggie has posted PLENTY of pictures of her in the Air Force.

2. For YEARS her stories have been consistent. If she’s a liar, she’s the best one on the planet (because it’s impossible for liars to keep their stories straight over the course of years).

3. I like her stories. If YOU don’t like them there is a solution; don’t read them!!! This is a simple concept I’m sure you can grasp.

4. You don’t know shit about her. So, kindly just shut the fuck up.

Stucky

P.S. Thank you for your service.

Hollywood Rob

Glad to be of service.

EL Cibernetico
EL Cibernetico

That’s what she said.

Hollywood Rob

Maggie has stated openly that he makes up his doppelgangers for effect. He doesn’t try to hide it. How is it that you think that Maggie is any more a real person than any of the other nom de plumes that he has assumed over the years of your history together. How do you know anything about him. All you know is what you read and all you read is written by him.

EL Ciclon Negro
EL Ciclon Negro

Hollywood Knobster, you are confused. Maggie is a real person with a vag. I, otoh, don’t have or need no stinkin’ vag. I’m Elpidio Corona, Filomeno Reyes and a host of other Mexican monikers – they aren’t real, Maggie is.

BL
BL

Who would dopple a commenter that writes about rabbits in great length? That does not compute.

M G
M G

And, consider this, Bea? You haven’t heard the HALF of it…

My father nicknamed our farm Swamp Rabbit Farm. He put up a flag.

It flew there except on POW-MIA Day… then, that flag flew.

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EL Ciclon Negro
EL Ciclon Negro

I did, one time.

M G
M G

My taxidermist buddy who fixes up wrecked cars and sells them to hillbillies around here… and owns the resturnt up at Patton Junction, well, he’s fixing me a really flat raccoon pelt for auctioning off at the shindig, if you don’t want to keep it.

I don’t know if you know about MISO? Well, my father knew this old Japanese dude who wrote back and forth with him for a while. He claimed his survival and his family’s survival in the aftermath of the nuclear bombs was due to the koji fermentation of plants from ancient seaweed beds.

I use it sparingly. I had almost forgotten I had it when my doctor told me I was never going to be able to digest anything if I didn’t start taking “probiotics.” Duh. Fermented foods.

So, I went to the Amish market, got saurkraut and chow-chow (and if you don’t know what fermented chow chow tastes like? I am sorry. Too bad.) Then, I remembered I had that big box of MISO I purchased when Fukushima became like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Dated 2005, it has deep sea seaweed fermentation vacuum sealed in safe packaging. I started taking about a 1/4 teaspoon in soup daily.

It took a while, but eventually I was able to taste again. and my true healing system, the digestive tract, kicked in.

There really is a good side to bacteria.

And, FWIW? My rocket scientist son took a whole freaking spoonful of it when I told him it was good for him but in tiny doses.

About four hours later, he was glad I have all that toilet paper stored in the secure room.

comment image

This tree? We guestimate it to be 200 years old, at least. It has a lumberjacking cable shot through it (A heavy twisted cable… never mind. I’ve got to go down and help Grooch soon. I’ll borrow his phone and take a picture.)

I really did lose my camera and it turned out to be a good thing. It has forced me to really look at the world instead of the pictures I am so good at creating. Just ask me.

This is the tree that lived

Stucky… I don’t want to talk about the you know what I sent if you know about it from the farmer in the dell. But, I really believe it is one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH9RJQnQPuQ

Hollywood Rob

See, Maggie embraces his creations. Revels in the creativity of his offerings. He is the Bee of TBP.

EL Ciclon Negro
EL Ciclon Negro

What do you embrace, Navy Boy?

EL Ciclon Negro
EL Ciclon Negro

the farmer in the dell

M G
M G

I have a music laundratorium.

comment image?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF

We loved the I Spy series of books when my son was small. How many stories can you find in a picture?

There is literally dozens of them, but we stopped at ten. Eventually, you get so good at it you see it all in one glance. Well, some people do.

comment image

Hollywood Rob

You do not understand Razzle. It is only a philosophical question to those who do not understand the science.

razzle
razzle

You are wrong.

razzle
razzle

The most important part of communication is the process of transmitting information (not symbols or sounds). The question exists for students to unwrap the problem of lossy communication and the importance of establishing shared definitions BEFORE trying to reach a conclusion otherwise the discussion is guaranteed to fail.

Sound does not have a single definition. Which one is in play must be decided… THEN an agreement becomes possible. Otherwise any agreements reached are either accidental, or worse, misunderstandings that will later cause conflict when following decisions are made.

Hollywood Rob

Razzel, the actual quote from the post is;

In the late eighteenth century, Bishop George Berkeley posed the question,

“If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?”

It didn’t mention communications. It asked if a sound was made. Sound does not have many definitions. It only has many definition in your philosophy. In the real world sound does have a definition and just because you don’t know that does not mean that it is not true. By the actual definition of sound, not communications, sound, a sound is made when the tree falls whether a person is there to hear it or not. This is incontrovertible. Your lack of technical training does not change it.

You write as if your training is in Philosophy. Maybe you just took one philosophy course or maybe you teach philosophy. My thesis for my MSEng was on the noise generated by tires. I retired five years ago after a 36 year career specifically in acoustics. It is pretty much all that I did for my entire adult life. I taught courses in noise control and sound intensity. I am not making this up.

I suspect that you have wandered from the primary quote and I think that this is because your interest in Philosophy has colored your response. I too am interested in Philosophy, just not to the level that you are. But let’s be fair, the whole point of the post is not about sound, or noise, or philosophy. It is about empire. And we have all managed to forget that. I really hate it when I post an article and everybody wants to prattle on about the color in the video. We probably should stick to the point.

razzle
razzle

I haven’t taken a philosophy course. I just bother to actually read material I’m replying to for comprehension, and you are utterly wrong about the purpose of the question.

Why did you leave the next part from the actual post…

Since that time, generations of university philosophy professors have required their students to consider the question. Countless classroom time has been taken up in pondering it.

What else?

George Berkeley known as Bishop Berkeley (Bishop of Cloyne) – was an Irish philosopher…

Sound does not have many definitions. In the real world sound does have a definition and just because you don’t know that does not mean that it is not true.

Sound definitions… partial selection…

  • a particular auditory impression : tone
  • a long broad inlet of the ocean generally parallel to the coast
  • the sensation perceived by the sense of hearing
  • a long passage of water connecting two larger bodies (such as a sea with the ocean) or separating a mainland and an island
  • mechanical radiant energy that is transmitted by longitudinal pressure waves in a material medium (such as air) and is the objective cause of hearing
  • the air bladder of a fish
  • This is incontrovertible. Your lack of technical training does not change it.

    You are talking about vibrations. Your lack of literacy does not change that.

    If you wanted to talk about empire instead of the philosophical aspect of that question, then you shouldn’t have poked your nose into trying to answer it when you clearly don’t understand it or its purpose.

    The purpose is the process of dissecting the question in order to understand communication of concepts between people and potential failure points. End of story. The primary (first) definition of sound near unanimously involves it being actually heard. Secondary and tertiary definitions do not. This goes beyond philosophy into business and law where the precise definition must be agreed upon in order to function.

    Your first post was wrong, you continue to be wrong and too stubborn to learn something.

    Hollywood Rob

    You know nothing about the things that you copy from the internet. You know nothing about philosophy. You know nothing about sound. You know nothing about physics. You know nothing but how to look shit up on the interwebs and paste it into threads. You don’t understand the philosophical implications of the question. You don’t understand that the philosophers who posed the question to their students didn’t understand the statement, nor did they understand the question. You are lost in a world that you don’t understand and you don’t have the capacity, nor the intellect, to comprehend the things that you “study” as you while away your days cruising the dark alleyways of the misinformation that is the internet. You lack the intelligence to even understand the comment of a misinformed philosopher.

    You don’t understand vibrations. You don’t know what causes sound. You don’t know what sound is. You don’t even apparently know how a geographical feature is different from the sound that a tree makes when it falls in the forest. And for sure, you can’t possibly think that the air bladder of a fish is in any way related to the sound that a philosopher used to challenge his students.

    Now if you are truly interested, I can explain it to you, but you will have to ask nicely. If you keep firing blanks for the beaners here on TBP there is likely no way I can help you. By the way, if a beaner fires a bullet into the air on may 5th, and it falls to earth in east LA, does it make a sound? That’s a philosophical question.

    razzle
    razzle

    You don’t even apparently know how a geographical feature is different from the sound that a tree makes when it falls in the forest.

    You are clinically retarded.

    razzle
    razzle

    Hollywow Robot at work…

    Client: “I need you to help us adjust the design of this prototype to reduce the sound it is making on the road.”

    Hollywood Robtard: “I can do that for you… afterall I’m a professional and I totally know exactly what you intend because I’m a professional with a profession that professes.”

    …time passes…

    Holywoowoo Ribbit: “Here you go, I was able to reduce the acoustics in your cabin significantly.”

    Client: “What the hell, this fixed nothing. The sound is still there.”

    Howsitgoo Robard: “I’m sorry xir, but you are clearly mistaken. See, here are the before and after decibel readings.”

    Client: “You dummy, I’m talking about the sound that happens when I brake.

    Heywhat Rawanda: “Are you talking about the steering wheel vibration?”

    Client: “Yes, the sound my car is making.”

    Herman Rainway: “You should have been more specific. You need a front end alignment.”

    Client: “You’re the professional dummy… you should have passed elementary philosophy. I’m not paying your fee from this contract.”

    Turtles all the way down...
    Turtles all the way down...

    Just think of me as Mack.

    EL Ciclon Negro
    EL Ciclon Negro
    Hollywood Rob
    Hollywood Rob
    razzle
    razzle

    comment image

    Festering Boil
    Festering Boil

    And go where? Nowhere left to go. Everywhere has been run over by libtarts…….

    M G
    M G

    Jack London called it Westering.

    I remember the term because he described all of the masses of North America standing at the edge of the Pacific Ocean, like Balboa before them, yearning for something they could not explain.

    Westering. Good one, Jack.

    Russ Wood
    Russ Wood

    Of course, you can also get the situation where the productive class (as in South Africa and Zimbabwe) are DELIBERATELY encouraged to leave, either by being ‘de-hired’ or simply by not being employed (in SA’s case – due to the colour of their skins). Then, as the country goes down the drain, those in charge drop all of the blame on those who either left, or are associated (by colour) with those who left. Result – the remaining ‘undesirable’ people who could possibly have been able to pull the country out of a descending spiral are discouraged and demonised. Glug…..

    JimmyTorpedo
    JimmyTorpedo

    I left and there was no noise apart from some shuffling of some papers in the revenue canada office. Nobody heard it though.
    GONE mutherfuckers…

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