As many would know, Australia has a single payer medical system, augmented by private insurance. What that means is that if you carry private insurance, you do not have to wait months, even years, for “elective” surgeries, like knee surgeries, etc., but rather can get taken care of immediately with your choice of doctor and hospital. Most single payer countries (Hello, Canucks!) have long waiting lists, as, well, single payer is so damn expensive you just have to wait, because, you know, no money for you! The private insurance costs around $2000 per person, and is somewhat subsidised by the government to encourage people take insurance so as to try to keep single payer costs down.
Well, darn it, it just is not working, dontchaknow. Surprise, Surprise, Surprise! Those pesky young folks simply will not pay for insurance they do not need, the cost of insurance is rising rapidly, the older folks are saying screw it, we cannot afford insurance, and the insurance companies are going broke, and the government costs are skyrocketing as a result.
Any of this sound familiar? A few years ago, there was an Australian treasurer who said this would happen, as, well, maffs, and as a result he was ridden out of politics on a rail. Blinkers went on, can got kicked, and, well, the problem did not go away.
So guess what next? One plan being bandied about is to eliminate single payer altogether, and force everyone to take out private insurance. Of course, some cannot afford it, so those that can will subsidize those that cannot – that is the plan, anyway. Now where have I heard that one before? What is it called again? Oh, yeah, Obamacare. It was stupid when Obama proposed it, and it is stupid when desperate Oz politicians propose it.
The problem remains – the cost of the insurance will continue to skyrocket under this Australianobamacare. Australia medical care costs a fraction of what it does in the US, but still this problem remains: there is just not enough money to suck out of the productive to give to the parasites. The costs escalate exponentially.
So, how do you think that Bernie’s, the Dem’s, etc., plan will work? What will happen when you force the productive to 100% subsidize the parasites? What incentive will the modestly productive have, given they can say screw it and just take a small step back, not have to work, become parasites, and suck up bennies? Rinse and repeat, as costs skyrocket, and the productive increasingly get bled dry.
Folks, here is the deal. You simply cannot create a system where you guarantee “rights” like healthcare, jobs, housing, lifetime incomes and are able to pay for it. It simply cannot work. Human nature forbids it, and the maffs are clear. If you pillage from the productive, they slowly and steadily toss in the towel, and the unproductive parasites have an endless ability to suck ever more blood from the host.
And hey! While we are at it, what say we guarantee free medical care to every Juan, Ramos, and Geraldo that can jump the border. I mean, it is only fair that the productive pay for them, too.
I leave you with this truth:
Our governments are full of idiots. And those idiots will try every stupid idea, no matter how ruinous, and no matter how many times the idea has been tried and has failed elsewhere, rather than do the one thing that will work, which is to return to a system where people are made responsible for themselves, and where the productive are not made, at the barrel of a gun, to support parasites.
(I wonder if I will be exempt from AustraliaObamacare like I am from Obamacare because, you know, Indian! Probably not. All good things come to an end, I guess.)
The bloated insurance companies do very little to improve “healthcare” and everything to make it more expensive.
Get rid of giant insurance companies, go small local health “co ops”.
In other words, think smaller, regional health cooperatives that you pay into. Overseen by a smaller board that doesn’t take billions in bonuses, doesn’t have giant buildings and infrastructure they need to maintain, and are more nimble, with less bloated paperwork.
Make cost transparency mandatory on all levels, from the GP’s office visits right down to the knee surgery.
Say no to ridiculous inflated costs like $20 per aspirin. Hey, allow patients to bring their own damn aspirin, toilet paper, and other non-prescription items. It is a hospital after all, you are there to be treated medically not on vacation.
This can also give people the choice to opt in or out for certain things when they need surgery for non-emergencies.
Don’t want to eat the disgusting hospital food? Have a family member willing to bring food (non-fast food I mean really people) to you? Great, check that off the list. Will bring your own crutches, take the ridiculous up charge off the bill.
Supply and demand brings down costs. Potential patients that can shop around, read Yelp reviews about things like cost vs. care quality, wait times, and outcomes go a long way towards fixing this. You get a shitty doctor but that’s the only one “in network” there’s not much you can do. Yelp MD would go a long way to fixing this. Insurance companies, hospitals, and docs are conspicuously not social media presences because they DON’T have to be. Whether people show up for treatment or not is not dependent on the quality or cost of said treatment with the way things work nowadays. Your insurance will pay whether you like the cost or quality or you don’t. And in the end, your wallet gets slammed.
I think knowing mortality rates of patients is extremely important as well. Not being able to keep people alive when they walk in the doors due to poor sanitary procedures should be high on the list of Yelp MD reviews.
Good docs with good outcomes and lower costs will drive up patient traffic, allowing the practice to expand, allowing more people to pay into the pool, allowing costs to fall further. Franchise that model, and boom, you have a cost-effective profit model of good healthcare at a reasonable cost.
MAKE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN BAD CHOICES. This seems like a no-brainer, but sadly in today’s political climate where everyone is a victim of some kind, it may very well be impossible to do this.
There’s so much more involved I could go on for a very long time, but the basics are clear:
Bloated, giant insurance companies do one thing: put money in their own pockets. Make no mistake, I have no problem with a business making money, but not without knowing what it’s going to cost me UP FRONT.
The utter lack of price competition and transparency is what makes health insurance so costly, and mostly ineffective at providing good healthcare, two very different things.
“Rights” can never depend upon someone else having to do something for you (except Leave You Alone). If someone else has to do something so that you can have your “Right” (including pay taxes, be a health care worker, build and maintain housing, etc.) then such “Right” isn’t a right, but is coerced extortion, sometimes drifting well over into a what would be a reasonable dictionary definition of Slavery.
My point exactly.
Just paying for services is ok if the cost is reasonable. The way it is now is crazy.
Strange information that keeps spiraling about when the health insurance costs are ever discussed . I do not know exactly how different nations make determinations regarding health care however the French nationals I worked with on a project loved their health insurance as did the Canadians who owned yachts sailing south for the winter . With any plan by governments there are issues but not the plans for government employees . Pricing of group plans is the issue . Just had a conversation with a fireman retired at 50% pay at 48 pays $369 per month for full health insurance including dental and eye care recurved $37 k per year in pension see how good socialized medical care works for the few minions connected . Average working people could not purchase a plan with that coverage even paying 4 times that amount so somebody is getting over while somebody gets screwed .
The American taxpayer is typically paying for the infamous Cadillac plan for somebody they just are not getting it !
Womb to tomb top shelf medical care is a reachable goal for working tax paying American citizens and yes everybody must pay to be in the plan . It should be one care plan all inclusive and no special set asides for this group or that group . Our social security system could be successful start but first all able bodied working citizens should be paying in that includes all government employees . All done with pretaxed dollars and no ability for congress critters to piss the money away elsewhere !
So Llpoh, are you saying that Obamacare is even woprse than Single Payer (+ optional private insurance)? That’s what it sounded like you were saying. If so, I think I agree. As bad as government-run health insurance would be (especially paying for the indolent), the clusterfuck we have now, with fake bills, outrageous premiums and deductibles so high it’s like not having insurance, is worse. The insurance companies are raking in the dough and producing as much as Spaniards moving spoonfuls of dirt with toy wheelbarrows. If we get Single Payer, it’s the insurance companies’ fault for thinking they could perpetually ass-rape everyone with impunity.
I have no idea which is worse. I just think any mandated system is doomed to fail, be it Obamacare, single payer, etc. Single payer is enormously expensive, and there are huge gaps in provision of services.
FSA knows they can vote themselves into your wallet. The politicians know it as well. The ultimate result will be the Venezuela and Zimbabwe health care model. You can ignore reality but not the consequences of ignoring reality. I feel your pain ,Llpoh. Eventually it will come down to FSA using guns to steal the productive peoples stuff and the productive people using guns to keep their stuff.
If those people voting in the” healthcare for all” were made to only have “healthcare for all” for their insurance, it might end the discussion.
A lot of people have only Medicare and many of them are satisfied with it. In fact, if they had been self-employed and seeing the true cost of private insurance, they’re pleased as punch to go on Medicare and stop paying for insurance.
Ms Freud’s medical bills are already north of $100,000. And there’s more to come. She’d probably be dead, or waiting to die, under single payer. Thank God for the gold-plated medical care retired teachers get. (Please don’t hate her for that.)
I think the point is that pay as you go is the only welfare system that works.
Don’t hate government employees for their lucrative health care benefits just hate the system that sets up the government employee benefits while taxing others to pay for it and leaving them in a situation where unaffordable choices are all that’s left .
Private sector workers are no longer paid salaries and benefits comparable to government employees and that’s just hard facts .
Socialism is working great for teachers , policeman , fireman and a laundry list of other government employees funded by taxpayers and debt laid upon the backs of taxpayers in the private sector . Fact this shit is no longer viable !
Union electricians are paid $35 bucks per hour and another $35 per hour to cover retirement and healthcare also vacation . No non union working people receive that anymore . As for private sector wages increasing figures lie and liars figure , put Jeff Bezos , Bill Gates and I in a room and the average hourly pay is $2 MILLON an hour but just put Wal Mart and Amazon employees in a room and most would qualify for some level of welfare assistance and paying for health insurance even a shitty plan is out of reach !
Thank God for the gold-plated medical insurance she has.
My ex had that “gold-plated medical care retired teachers get.” She cancelled it when they were charging her over one quarter of her retirement; it was more like 28%. She enrolled in Medicare and saved half. The best insurance in the world is not good enough if you don’t have money left to eat.
Stucky, I’m glad she has good insurance. Consider, though, that the REAL bills might be considerably less than the sticker price. If you saw bills for, say, $150,000, the insurance company might have those “paid in full” for $30-40,000. I’ve told the story here of how I got an invoice for $116,000 that – after processing by my insurance – turned into $14,000. I paid a $5,900 deductible and my insurance paid the remaining $8,100 – which is less than half of the annual premium they’d collected for “family coverage”. The huge phony bills serve the purpose of frightening people into paying outrageous premiums for year after year, decade after decade. The teachers might have foregone a lot of pay over the years in order to get that insurance.
ObombaDontCare – Satan’s population control? The most suffering for the most people for the longest possible time for the most money. Kill ’em slow for the max profit for the BigMAC (Big Medico Agribiz Complex).
Why do the rest of us get sucked into and victimized by The Stupid Tax? Democracy – our betters trick us into being responsible for their crimes – “you voted – it’s your fault!” Leave us alone and let dumb and dumber finance their own “care” (suffering?) via the State Lottery.
in 2015 my dad had an aortic aneurysm & had to go back into the hospital a couple of months later when it got infected–
he saved every bill from every provider & a year or so later when he had the energy to do so he totaled everything–
everything combined (hospital,surgeons,anesthesiologists,etc.) came to approximately $220,000–
insurance paid approximately $26,000,and dad had to pay about $800.00–
2 major problems–what was the real cost?,and why isn’t the insured patient more financially invested on the back end,not just on the front end ?
Tenampa, when the hospital tried to collect my insurance money, my lawyer told them they had agreed to the amount my health insurance would pay – a small fraction of the money they wanted from me. Therefore, I’d say the real cost is what the insurance company pays. The larger amounts they bill are – as they told somebody else – to cover the costs of people who can’t or don’t pay.
Almost correct. The larger (phony) bills are rarely collected at all – so they don’t cover costs of uninsured people. Most people without health insurance have no money. If the hospital doesn’t cut the phony bill a LOT, the patient (debtor) will file bankruptcy. The purpose of the phony bills is to make people feel lucky that they have insurance that costs $20,000 / year (including the employer’s portion) and has a $5-6,000 deductible.
Sounds like the real cost was ~ $26,800. It’s not the hospitals/doctors/nurses that are driving up the costs. It’s the phony bills. If you want to see where the REAL cost is, look at the years of insurance premiums paid – not just the “employee’s portion”, but the “employer’s” as well. It was probably $20,000 / year in recent years.
iskfa,
a couple of points about your 2 posts above–
imo,another reason 4 the large inflated bills that will never be paid is 4 write off purposes.
for profits can cancel huge amounts of taxes due on profits & non profits can go to the various levels of govt from whom they receive funding & demand more funding–
regarding what is driving up costs,employees are much of the cost drivers–there are huge #s of employees in hospitals,and i believe that is part of the reason pols are resistant to reform–medicine is a big employer & pols do not want to be seen as cutting people’s jobs–
It’s all lies – medical bills. No one with insurance pays those costs, so they are a lie. No one without insurance can pay those costs, so they are a double lie.
Transparency in medical billing is what is needed. Start by stating the real cost paid for supplies, medicines, procedures. If a surgeon charges a hundred thou for one operation, it had better be brain surgery or the equivalent. If the surgeon has COSTS that he can document – malpractice insurance, licensing fees, whatever – that can be itemized. Then show real labor costs – and show what the profit charged is.
Medicine is treated differently than any other business: you can demand a list of charges up front for anything else. You can shop lawyers, mechanics, engineers. Shopping doctors is almost impossible, and the insurance companies do nothing to help.
It’s time to break the medical monopoly / cartel – we can’t afford them anymore.
a few months ago i was working on the plumbing underneath one of my rentals–as i was crawling out i raised up too soon & hit my head against a rusty steel beam,which caused a small cut–
it had been years since i had gotten a tetanus shot so i decided to get one–it was friday afternoon & my dr had left 4 the day so i thought i’d try a walk in clinic–i thought i’d be able to walk in,plop down $75.00 or so,get the shot & walk out–
every clinic i called wanted a new patient fee,new patient interview,etc.–the cheapest one i found was $175.00,with most being over $200, one as high as $400–
i was getting pissed but kept calling one clinic after another with the thought that i’d find a small family clinic that would understand what i wanted & let me just walk in & get the shot,but no luck–
every time i pulled up a new clinic one of the side advertisers that always pop up when shopping on the internet was the publix grocery store pharmacy–i knew that they give flu shots but didn’t know they did anything else–
finally i said what the heck & called them–they give tetanus shots 4 just $75.00–
i walked in & was out within 10 minutes–
if i had gone to a clinic it would have been 000 s of dollars–
if cash customers were charged the same amount as the insurance companies actually pay,more people would pay cash–
a couple of things i have learned recently,fyi–
offsite clinics that are affiliated w/a hospital have started adding a hospital administration fee onto people’s bills–
many hospitals have now have walk in clinics that are nowhere near their hospital but that fee will still be charged–
if you go to the hospital but are not actually admitted,some insurance & medicare will not pay the hospitalization rate–oftentimes,people will be kept under observation,either in a special area or even in a regular hospital room but they will not be considered as admitted patients–
if you or a loved one are receiving treatment in a hospital,check the status & if it will be 4 more than a few hours,insist on admission or at least call your insurance company to see how to proceed–
The very notion of INSURANCE of any kind for any reason is nothing but FRAUD. I should know as I used to sell it. Stand on your own feet and quit relying on someone else to take care of you. They will screw you anyway they can anytime they can. All your doing is subsidizing some lazy ass to sit at his desk and take your money all day long. It absolutely amazes me that ANYONE would buy Obamacare or any other policy that has a HUGE deductible. Such fools are we………………..
true insurance is simply the transfer of the financial risk of loss from one party to another–
many forms of insurance today aren’t really insurance–
Which adds 50% additional to the true cost of said insurance, plus the additional cost of the added fraud. Incidentally, that 50% is a very old number, probably closer to 80% now. So if you pay me 100 dollars in insurance cost, I will pay 20% of your cost. What a deal.
Reminds me of the atlas shrugged when Hank Reardon was in his hearing defending himself and he told the ministry of production that they can have it all. That he would quit. They could take him to jail but they would have to come with their guns and force him to either comply and pay or be escorted with an armed force to his jail cell. They back off from their. Thats why our govt wont push too fast too far. They know if we sheep get too wise too quick we make handy use of those 320 million evil black rifles to fix their stupidity. They pander to their troglodyte voter base promising fake math for votes and those idiots think they got something when they didn’t get jack. The only one that always wins is the pandering politicians with elite illegal health benefits better than citizens and a fat pension and the ability to cheat the stock market and do insider trading. Why we have not marched on these treasonous bastards is beyond me. How much will it take before we do. What will or must occur for us to take action or march or vote to stop these leaching bastards politicians that have no experience, education or understand math nor business. We are the fools allowing them to be elected. It is like every village idiot ran for office and won.
Health Insurance… I’m paying out of pocket over 15k a year. My own insurance is covered by my employer. If not it would be another 7200 a year. It’s a sad reality of the situation in the private sector. Unfortunately I have a court order that requires insurance on the kids. I would much rather pay our of pocket.
I am a staunch believer that if you get anything, anything at all from government, you shouldn’t be able to vote. Salary, disability, social security, any dime from government and you forfeit your right to vote. It should be a constitutional amendment. That alone would solve this countries problems.
I like it.
i’m in the same boat–i piggyback on my wife’s insurance–her employer pays her’s but for my 19 daughter & myself it’s $600/biweekly–
i’m seriously considering getting my kid a high deductible major med since she’s very healthy & going bare 4 myself–
You going bare is a sight I think I can happily miss.
your latent gayiety you’ve been covering up w/your machismo would come flowing out so fast you couldn’t help yourself if you saw me bare–
on a serious note,did you see where huma has let anthony weiner move back in w/her?
Dot or feather, sir?
I recently visited with some people regarding the Indian Health Care system, at least in Oklahoma. Interesting how the different tribes handle the issue. Some only require 1/16 for limited benefits, while others, with the true half-breed or above status, get the whole shebang.
I can’t imagine that will last long. The Casino funds are just another Ponzi scheme. Eventually, even the white boys and their wives will run out of money to put into the slot machines.
Regarding the Single Payer issue?
The government is not the only institution full of idiots in this equation.
My recent operation and recovery has been enlightening in many ways. Fortunately, I have a devoted husband and life partner who manages the family finances quite well and he has tracked the billing fiascos from the three medical agencies (initial emergency care, then St. Louis hospital, surgeon, wound care services, then post-operative charges and care from hospital and surgeon). He has them all listed in a spreadsheet with dates of operation(s) and dates of billing(s).
Yesterday, we got notice of a “new” resolution of a billing from last August. It seems the $849 bill was reduced to $42 with a negotiated payment of $130 from the Insurance. Several hundred dollars of obligation just disappeared into “adjustment.”
There are multiple billings of that same $849 bill to both us and to TriCare (military retired insurance) and to the Veterans Administration (service-connected injury.) There are also multiple other billings for charges in the tens of thousands of dollars, the largest was $52,000 for the doctor’s 5 hours spent with me in surgery. Fortunately, for me? His job is accomplished and done well. I got news for my skilled surgeon though… He ain’t getting any of that money unless his billing office puts the code down that TRICARE wants to see. And, I’ve told both him and his nurse that their billing office needs to include a CODE for the procedures. The company which handles this region’s retired military folks wants the CODE. That’s all. Then they will negotiate the payment. Until then? No payment.
So, the stupid billing clerk submits to the Veterans Administration, not the TriCare people, and still doesn’t use a CODE.
The VA is the LAST place anyone will bill because the payment from them comes with a letter than says that this money is all you are getting, period. So, to my doctor, they send NOTHING along with a letter admitting it is indeed “service-connected” but the VA will not pay for the procedure since they were not consulted. Period. And end of issue. My doctor is peeved, but not at me. And not, apparently, at his billing clerk, who submits the same bill BACK to TriCare and is stupid enough to include the Veterans Administration’s letter refusing to pay.
So, TriCare folks get wind of that and submit a bill to the MEDICAL office at the hospital for repayment of what they already paid!
Since the Veterans Administration just said they are responsible, but will pay NOTHING… TriCare thinks maybe they should get their money back. Even though, technically, TriCare and VA care are from the same “single payer” aka the gubmint. I’m not sure if TriCare thinks the VA should repay them or the medical industry, but it is quite entertaining. Especially because I printed out the pages of the FEDERAL REGULATIONS proving I don’t owe a dime. And, I know how to use them.
What a mess our country’s medical care “system” is in… what is it I heard about Systems Theory? Oh, yeah… they become more and more structured, regimented and inefficient. Until or unless they adapt and restructure. I imagine we are in the adaptation and restructuring phase or we are about to collapse. Either way, it is good to be far and away from the Madding Crowd. (Hardy.)
https://www.britannica.com/topic/systems-theory
Single-Payer Health Care is simply “time-of-death management.”
P.S. I expect to see an increased number of people discussing “quality of life” versus “release of suffering” issues very soon. Why NOT just put Granny down? She’s got all that money invested and it will just be wasted on assisted living, won’t it? C’mon… wouldn’t she want us to spend it?
The terminally stupid are inheriting the earth and because they are stupid they do not realize that everyone cannot have everything, it is an impossibility.
For those struggling w/ these costs … especially but not entirely young people … please look at this which is what what I had my kids get on;
https://www.medishare.com/
I don’t recall the exact details, but they pay $54 per month for the two of them (23 years old, married), something like a $13k deductible(?). So, it is pretty much what used to be a “Major Medical” policy before those went away. Of course there are many options for paying a higher monthly contribution and lowering the ‘deductible.’
They don’t call it insurance and they don’t use insurance terms, like ‘deductible'(I’m using that) … but in practice it is equivalent.
There are also other providers … Medishare is not the only organization that does this.
Here is my story..
Tonight wife and I got a call from Lady who adopted our Granddaughter…
Long story how that came to be and won’t get into it..
She has Breast Cancer
She went to see Specialist in Calgary yesterday to find out about Surgery..
Mid November is when it will be done…
I guess chemo/radiation hopefully to shrink it first, then surgery. They are much better at this stuff these days. Good luck to her.
No that is not what they are gonna do.. its worse
They said it won’t grow so nothing is going to be done until after surgery..
No tests
No biopsies
No Chemo
No radiation
No nothing
Just hope and pray it doesn’t get worse
I am not a doctor but this does not make any sense to me..
And the reason why this is case.
It will take two surgeons to perform operation and that is earliest they can get these two specialists to cross paths.