“Reverse Engineer” was a prolific poster before TBP, and then a few years once TBP came into being. He and I had a few nice friendly-fire encounters but, I genuinely liked the guy. He was a good writer, smart (even though we disagreed often), and his articles/comments always generated much discussion. Now out of vogue, but his “seven million will die!!” was quite popular to say here at one time.
Anyway, he just had one leg amputated due to some flesh-destroying disease.
Now, the other leg is infected. The doctors gave him two choices; amputate that leg also, or die in 6 months.
In the video below, he asks his readers on his blog — Doomstead Diner — for what they think he should do.
Perhaps you’d like to go to his website to respond, or do so here …. or, just send a note of support and encouragement. No one deserves that kind of suffering, especially at a relatively young age.
Me? “HANG IN THERE, RE. Never, never, give up. You could live another 10-20 years in good health! Why take the “die” route without giving the operation a chance? If your life continues to get worse and worse despite the second amputation … you could always commit suicide. (Really … that’s what I would do.) I know you’re not a Believer,so I will just say this; you are in my thoughts, you are not alone, you are not forgotten. See you in the Great Beyond …. eventually. I’ll treat you to a mighty fine potlash!!”
THE END
Would not wish that on anyone, nor would I wish him any harm.
That said, my memory is RE indicated his belief that the old should not linger and put stress on the young. I seem to recall him saying something to the effect that they should set themselves on an ice flow and perish. I called horseshit. RE and I are natural adversaries.
Ayn Rand ranted about welfare and social security, yet took it when she aged. RE said the burdens of the old should not be born by society, and that the aged should pass from this life instead. And yet here again we see what I mentioned in another thread – those “strongly” held principles disappear when confronted by reality and self interest.
Of course he should try to survive. But if he chooses that route, and hard for me to believe that he will not, he should recant, man up, and own up to what he has said. One rule for RE, and another for the rest of the sick old folks is indeed a bad look.
I’m not going to go my entire life subsidizing your healthcare, and then happily agree to die when I’m the one who qualifies for benefits.
It doesn’t work that way.
The options are Liberty or War.
In liberty, we take care of our own problems, and the misfortunes of the old aren’t visited on the young.
In war, we do whatever we can to screw the outgroup, and fuck them.
That goes for all questions from medicare, to social security, to covid stimulus. I don’t have to throw away my resource base to virtue signal to people who would salivate over my corpse.
To stop by the original post, legs aren’t all that valuable. You can live just fine without them. I don’t know enough details to say more than that, so that’s not exactly a recommendation, but, just because you can’t imagine living without legs, doesn’t mean it’s a bad life.
I think RE’s fear is “what’s next??”. Will his arms be next in line to be amputated, etc?
I think, as is often the case, there are underlying conditions that might make this battle never ending. It may well be as you say – it could go in and on. That would suck, and would give anyone pause to consider whether quality of life would be so poor as to be unliveable.
Indeed, Chief, he did call for the old and infirm to die. I, like yourself, also opposed him on this with vigor.
I must say though, if you watch the video he is taking it rather stoically. He’s not whining or crying about his demise, if that’s the route he takes. “We’re all gonna die”, he says rather matter-of-factly.
You two had some really nice battles!
Yes, we certainly did gird our loins and go at it. So have you and I, but we always kissed and made up. RE and I not so much. By memory he eventually pissed of the Admin by talking about his family, would not stop, and got heaved. RE is certainly stubborn, if nothing else.
i think we can sum up the divergence here quite simply: if youve got a will to survive youll do what you can to survive. Even if that means with one leg, or no legs, or whatever. some of us have that will and will hang on by tooth and nail to life. more power to you. However, at no point is it acceptable for me to impose the costs of my survival on others without their consent. If i cant manage it myself anymore, i reach the end of the line. This also applies to groups of people who willingly pool their efforts together, for example in a family where we take care of our elders when they cant manage anymore. it would still be wrong to demand from other families that they subsidize our efforts. if our family cant manage past some point, well, thats how it goes. Amongst ourselves we will decide how much we can manage without unduly harming the rest of the family. Amonst ourselves in a small community of families we might even make such a decision. Certainly once it gets beyond a very close circle where people know each other well, something reminescent of dunbar’s number, it becomes a mere struggle of one (person or family or group) at the expense of another and the moral high ground always goes to the defense and not the offense in such a struggle- nobody has the right to force something out of another.
The modern world has totally distorted everything out of scale, such that it’s all a vicious festival of cannibalism. people thinking they have a ‘right’ to handouts promised them by sneaky politicians who built an empire out of willing anticipating recipients of largesse, people likewise thinking they have a ‘right’ to bleed excessive profits out of any damn thing and pass the costs and damages on to others, people who think they have a ‘right’ to extort compensation for grievances real or imagined, out of anybody else too weak to defend himself against the robbery, and so on and so forth. everybody have been promised a claim of some kind which passes through some ‘public’ entity that’s supposed to arbitrate and was advertised as a fountain of endless wealth at no cost. a lethal fantasy as it turns everyone against everyone. your existence becomes a threat to me getting my bennies, and we resent each others very existence.
gotten shut down that whole machine and get back to small scale society where people _can_ make such decisions and remain moral.
as for ayn rand and her disciples.. i think the biggest mistake they keep making is they conflate machines with men. All her heroes are gigantic industrial corporations, with some iconic mascot human at the head somehow inspiring his personality into the rest of the machine. she goes gushing for pages and pages about her love affair with machines… if her concepts of liberty and accountability etc were at a scale of humans, theyd hold a lot more water. when they are a worship of the very mechanisms that concentrate pwoer and wealth, and create the very lack of ownership, accountability, responsibility, and liberty she complains about.. shes gotta pull her head out of her ass and realize that you cant solve a problem by doing the thing that created the problem. she never did.
Years ago, before the plethora of social programs we looked after our parents and grandparents, those who required looking after. Now we warehouse them in long term care homes, because ….. As I have watched the intellectual slide of society in general, I am coming to understand why people decide that they have had enough after a long life and are ready to meet Jesus as my mother used to say. What I have witnessed in the last two years does not give me hope for the success of future generations.
The complete lack of thought surrounding a flu virus, an election so obviously fraudulent and the desire to crush any dissent about damn near anything, shows me that we are indeed coming to an end of something, just what is anyone’s guess.
A 120 years ago we died from just about everything.
Wow, some people really cannot learn.
–
Very well said, Llpoh. Put up or shut up.
To have that happen definitely sucks, can’t belittle it, but the legs are not the man. My cousin has been in a wheelchair for about 40 yrs now, paralyzed from the waist down. After she accepted her circumstances she never let it slow her down. She lives a fuller life than the vast majority of whole critters running around. Live or die RE, your choice. Why do you need anyone else’s input? Unless you’re looking for an excuse to turn from an earlier foolish bullshit belief. I can understand that, but have the cojones to stand on your beliefs, or have the huevos to admit that it was a stupid prideful uncompassionate attitude you had about the whole ‘do the right thing’, pointed at others. Funny how it all seems different when the shit hits YOUR fan.
I was dead a year ago. Heart Attack emergency 4X bypass etc. Really bad but there are many even worse off. Take me a full year to recover a level of fitness and there were many times when I wanted to take the easy way with a 12ga shell of 00 buckshot. But the human animal is not really built that way….we are programmed to survive. To keep fighting and living when a leg is amputated or they cut you in half and rebuild your heart. Sure it sucks but a severe medical issue can bring peace.
I am utterly unafraid of shuffling off this mortal coil, I am a believer and it is all going to be OK. Being a peace with whatever time you have left is a great place to be. Will I be able to actively participate in the coming festivities……of course just not humping gear and fighting like I planned but I feel well to enough to help in lots of ways.
Confronting your own mortality via trauma is one thing……a life-threatening disease or medical condition is a different level. Your body has betrayed you vs. an outside force acting on you (accident, bear attack, shark attack, construction/industrial/agricultural accident, bike wreck, etc.). Mental recovery is as challenging as physical issues. How do you trust your own body again?
So of course he is going to keep fighting, it is what humans do.
IMO, he should get a second opinion. Why should he trust the doctor who didn’t get it right the first time. So, he’s suppose to get another amputation on the CHANCE it takes care of the rest of the infection?
Either way I’m praying for a miracle for RE and I wish him well.
Long story but I’ve had circulation problems in both legs with arterial bypasses in both. Last time I had an aneursym in left leg the surgeon refused to operate again and described the difference between a good amputation and a bad amputation. I got a second opinion. Now have a piece of dacron in leg. Been over a year and “still kicking.” Never give up.
Either or? Why suppose there are only 2 choices? Search for a 3rd or 4th option.
Western medicine is generally very good, even amazing but there are too many instances where alternatives exist that are not considered or explored.
mycancerstory.blog comes to mind. A guy with lung cancer has defied the odds by taking some anti-parasitic med and is currently living 7 years (and doing fine) beyond his doctors expected expiration date.
If it was my plight, my first thought would be TRUE colloidal silver. Not the ionic stuff most try to sell. See meso silver.com (?). Would it work? I have NO idea but I’d try soaking the lesion and ingesting the silver and see what happens. Other alternatives?
My father died of Parkinsons, which was basically starving to death because his muscles for swallowing no longer worked. Even though he had told me he wanted to live every last second he could, in the end, because he was no longer able to communicate his wishes, it fell on me to make the decision to end his life by starvation or surgically insert a feeding tube into his abdomen. Out of mercy, I chose the former.
My father wanted to live as long as he could, but the vegetative state he was in was not living. The last thing he was able to tell me was “I can’t live”, so it came to me to make the final decision. I never felt like it was the wrong one, because all the things he enjoyed, fishing, family, food and travel had been taken from him by the Parkinsons.
That said, RE, due to most of America being handicapped accessible by law, from state parks to restaurants, I would choose live as long as I could. Life is a precious thing. Take all you can get and rage against the dying light.
I say take heart, and live , brother.
Do not go gentle into that good night
Dylan Thomas
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I have told my wife and kids to NEVER insert a feeding tube in me.
Put your specific instructions in writing.
Depending on the doctors involved, feeding tube placement may be presented to the family as a simple “no big deal” decision. Once placed, though, a feeding tube can turn a final week or so of life into multiple years of “semi-life”.
“Put your specific instructions in writing”,And make damn well sure that multiple people have copies of it–
My mom put a feeding tube into my grandmother after a massive stroke. She lasted 5 years in a state in which she could not speak, but likely was aware of way too much. Mom realized that it was the wrong thing to do after it was already done (and certainly would have chosen starvation in hindsight). Sadly there was nobody from hospice or other to truly explain exactly what was going to happen and the care and medical comfort she would have received. No question as to my mom’s wishes for herself. DNR all the way. I just find it disgusting that even in a situation where assisted suicide is allowed, you must be mentally competent at the time of the death, but cannot made the decision regarding assisted suicide while you are competent that such assistance will be delivered if you ever get Alzheimer’s, etc. Simply wrong. I know for a fact that my mother would never have wanted to live as she did for her last years of life (with Alzheimer’s), but she lacked the courage or whatever to take her own life. We always fear the worst, but are unwilling to acknowledge the mercy. Having watched both of our mothers pass from Alzheimer’s, both my wife and I have committed to NEVER end up in a care facility of any nature should the situation require it.
I’m sorry to hear he’s going through that. No one, friend, foe or in-between, deserves such a fate.
Personally, I would never give up. I didn’t come this far to quit. Life has thrown stuff at me which has killed other men; yet still I live. If you had asked me 20 years ago if I wanted to live I would have told you the same, because I was going through tough times, and the option to self-terminate was always there. But I couldn’t do it. I wanted to keep going. Maybe it’s because I ran cross-country track when a teen; it wasn’t important, really, how fast I got there, just as long as I finished the race. It taught me a valuable life lesson: like Robert Duvall told Sean Penn in “Colors,” “No, son, let’s walk down there, and fuck em all.”
NEVER QUIT.
LIFE IS WORTH LIVING.
I am not sure what I would do,have known many who choose not to live longer/some who fought like hell to live longer.
I wish RE the best in whatever his decision but my take on it for him is about as useful as a hollyweird actor promoting a political candidate.
My gut tells me that God frowns on suicide. It’s not an option for me.
i think we could express that even better by saying that probably god frowns on throwing our lives away pointlessly. Something that might technically be suicide can still be making it worth it by sacrificing it for the right reasons, and history is full of examples. It could be that someone who faces a downward spiral of health might sacrifice his life in a heroic struggle against evil knowing he hasnt got much to lose, and while he might technically in doing so end up committing suicide, he might be making better use of the live god gave him, than many who hang on like cringing cowards for years and years merely dragging others into powerty to keep them around.
perhaps one of the most important things we need to learn from god’s lessons (which are given all around us , including but not limited to, some books of scripture) is that he gave us brains and a moral compass to judge different situations by their own merits and the free will to act on it- and will hold us to account for our choices.
Stucky,
RE posted his Dilemma video on November 30 of last year.
As far as I can tell, he’s been silent since then…
Is there any updated information available?
I looked but couldn’t find any.
On his home page is an article written by one of the long-timers there … and he mentions RE’s ongoing medical issues. So, at least as of Feb. RE was still alive. That’s all I know.
I tried leaving a message there several times but was unsuccessful.
I don’t know whether or not he had the second amputation and I haven’t seen him state either way on his website.
But he has been in the hospital since last September and is currently in nursing home care.
As far as I know he has no family with him, he never married nor had kids, but he has a sister in Springfield MO. That’s a hard way to go into ill health and old age; alone.
I wonder if hyperbaric treatment might help. It saved my leg from a nasty infection 40 years ago.
Might consider taking colloidal silver; good at fighting bad bacteria (and viruses) from the inside out. In this case, I’d take enough to ‘almost’ turn blue.
By the way, I take colloidal silver during flu season, which, this last season, is going on 18 months.
Well I just met “reverse engineer” and read a bit of his site. Once you lose one leg, the other isn’t quite as useful, but that’s not the point. You(he) has a terrific mind and writes really well and I like what he says. The brain needs stimulus to remain functional as we age so please keep writing for my old brain. I think you should live a bit longer.
What’s the diagnosis?
“Flesh eating bacteria” tend to be very rapid, not chronic, and respond to antibiotics.
Sounds more like peripheral vascular disease to me.
Does he smoke?
Mark MD
He has/had Cellulitis.
Looks like he opted for the amputation.
Reminds me of the decision Gus Mccrae had to make at the end of Lonesome Dove. He chose death over taking his remaining leg. –
Woodrow Call: What do you want legs for anyway? You don’t like to do nothing but sit on the porch and drink whiskey!
Gus McCrae: I like to kick a pig every once in a while. How would I do that?
Decisions like that should always be up to the individual or in the case of incapacitation a family member who knows them well enough to ensure their wishes are fulfilled
Better yet, get your shit in order before it gets to this point and have power of attorney for healthcare, for finances, and your last wishes done on paper and notarized so your loved ones know what you wanted done if and when you cannot speak for yourself.
Are there still people on this earth who love you? Can you still put a smile on someone’s face? Can you lend an ear when someone needs a person to listen? Do you need your legs for any of these things?
What happened is awful but it needn’t be the end of life or love. Keep fighting for a while longer. Once you’re gone you don’t get to change your mind and come back.
K – by memory, he has very little family, and ended up in Alaska as he has no ties.
Doesn’t it make you feel so very moral?
“THEY cut off my leg, but I’m still alive!”
In an amazingly candid exclusive interview with The National ENQUIRER, down-on-his-luck Jan-Michael Vincent has revealed the “amputation horror” that nearly cost him his life.
The 69-year-old former “Airwolf” star – ravaged by booze, drugs and violence – told The ENQUIRER he found himself at “death’s door” when a medical crisis forced doctors to remove most of his right leg two years ago.
Sitting beside third wife Anna, Jan-Michael said the nightmare surgery resulted from complications of peripheral artery disease.
“An infection in my leg got steadily worse,” The “Big Wednesday” star told The ENQUIRER. “I felt like I was beaten with a whip, one thing after another.”
https://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/exclusive-video-interview-jan-michael-vincent-amputation-hell/
That reminds me, my mom actually took me to a movie theater to watch that movie.
“Let us prepare our minds as if we’d come to the very end of life. Let us postpone nothing. Let us balance life’s books each day. The one who puts the finishing touches on their life each day is never short of time.” —Seneca
Wow, heavy question. I wish you the best RE. I remember your passion for knowledge.
Well, Reverse Engineer (and Stuckenheimer, too), I didn’t want this very profound inquiry to pass from the front page of TBP without contributing my opinion.
In 2010, we learned a lot about End-of-life issues when my husband’s parents both ended up in the hospital together in Cleveland and the state of Ohio discovered they were old and owned their own home and decided they could not return home. Their other son, newly alerted to the huge wad of savings his parents had accumulated in 84 years, was more than happy to assume control and sell everything they had before my husband even knew what was going on. By the time we got Poppa Grooch to Oklahoma, he was a very sick old man.
He lived for another six months, slowly and steadily declining in health and mental acuity. We were with him every day for several hours, hoping he knew he was loved and wanted and that we never viewed him as a burden. And, to be honest? He wasn’t one. He was “Dad” or, to me, “Poppa Gee”
I’ve selected some quotes to think about from an article and below will refer to each topic by number indicated. AMA Journal of Ethics, Illuminating the Art of Medicine entitled
Against the Duty to Die
These three are just topics for thought/discussion.
Nonutilitarian justifications for a duty to die include arguments that it is wrong for the elderly to impose a burden that seriously compromises the lives of others [3]
It was suggested duty to die is just a special case of a more general duty to prevent harm [4]
For some reason, old people living in wealthy nations have a duty to end their lives in order to transfer wealth to people living in poorer countries [5]
And, perhaps dying early represents a gift for others based on justice and reciprocity. [6]
…
“It may also explain why we regard dependency in the very young as less burdensome than in aging persons: healthy children emerge from their dependency to function independently; by contrast, elderly persons tend to experience a progressive decline of functioning as they age.
…
In the US and other developed countries, we are witnessing an unprecedented reduction in the proportion of society that is of working age, a development that has the potential to increase dramatically the burdens experienced by family members who care for the elderly. But it also has the potential to serve as a clarion call to action. As a society, we can and must do more to ease the burden on families and to give the old and young alike the care and commitment they deserve.”
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/against-duty-die/2014-05
1. What determines if someone’s life is worth living? Pain versus pleasure? How is that measured?
2. Do the elderly have a duty to get out of the way?
3. Why do the elderly compromise the lives of others?
4. Harm?
5. To transfer wealth to those in poorer countries?
6. Justice and reciprocity? What, exactly, is reciprocity and what does it have to do with dying early?
RE? If you are reading this, at least know I have kept you in my thoughts and hope this at least gives your very capable and healthy mind something to think about and even, if you want, to argue about!
Thanks for weighing in … some profound ethic questions are involved with all that.
I sent RE a direct email, including a link to this thread …. and also to “Surly”, also a former TPBer, who seems to be keeping the site going in RE’s absence. I don’t think we’ll hear from them. That’s OK, they have more serious priorities.
I gave this a bit of thought… there are a lot of really profound questions here. And, especially to me since I now realize that it was this sort of thinking that caused both my own father and Nick’s parents great anguish.
I think the best book I’ve read on the topic was Tuesdays with Morrie.
Tell RE that this caused me to purposefully go be a blessing to someone and then it caused me to thank God (and Odin) that I could push a wheelbarrow full of rabbit shit to my raised beds and fill them, even though I had to rest twice.