Guest Post by Hardscrabble Farmer
I have been reading Xenophon’s Retreat and was struck by the similarities of social, political and cultural experiences during the waning years of the Greek experiment in the late 5th century B.C. and America today. One passage- attributed to Xenophon or Aristotle depending on text reads thus:
“The contrast between aristocracy and democracy is universal. It is based on the fact that intemperance and injustice are more or less unknown in the best of men, who have the highest degree of concern for decency, whereas ignorance and unruliness and dishonesty are in the highest degree qualities of the masses, who are tempted to immoral conduct by their poverty.”
The further divisions of the Greek city states, primarily those of Athens and Sparta closely resemble the bitter divide that exists in our present era; the Spartans were driven by masculine efforts of martial discipline, patriotism, and honor (those of the warrior class), while the Athenian ideals were of endless hedonism, sophistry, commerce and banking. The conflict between the two as the Greek era slid into decline set the stage for the inevitable collapse of the foundational civilization of Western mankind.
It would be impossible not to see the similarities in Xenophon’s retreat from Persia- despite its military superiority over the enemy and our recent pullout from Afghanistan in this light. At the end, despite every advantage the Greeks possessed, their destiny had already been set by their own internal divisions, not by the threat from any foreign enemy.
Similarly, the trial of Socrates- foretold long before it occurred by the central player- resembled in all ways the recent phenomenon of cancel culture in modern America and the complete subversion of the system justice meant to prevent such outrages in a free society.
He wrote-
“My trial would resemble the prosecution of a doctor by a manufacturer of sweets before a jury of children.”
The Athenians were desperate to retain complete control over the masses not by example, but by a form of fear and self-imposed submission to the beliefs of the ruling class by their population. It was imperative, therefore, to make an example out of anyone who dared to challenge their authority and to do so publicly, not only to discredit, but to humiliate, lest the youth- “the children”- be led astray by those with contrarian views.
From the text of Xenophon’s retreat-
“Socrates was charged with not recognizing the gods of the state…societies such as fifth century Athens, are notoriously paranoid about the failure to conform…”
There appears, if only we scratch the surface of any condition known to man, to be and endlessly repeating cycle of behaviors regardless of time, place or circumstance.
There is nothing new under the Sun.
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Absolutely BRILLANT article, Sir.
Delighted to have it first thing in the morning, here in Reno Nv.
The photo of you and admin was a treat, and for those of us that have had no hair for years, jealousy is on.
Truly regret not being near enough to be there for the Fourth gathering.
Long live Democracy!
s/
Unfortunately there is newness under the sun.
New technology, weapons and surveillance and control systems unimaginable to all who have went before us.
Some might debate that. A lot can happen over a couple hundred thousand years and ice ages and meteor strikes. It is conceivable that we haven’t done anything new yet. I am not saying I believe that, but there is an awful lot of unaccountable time both before and immediately following the last ice age 12,000 years ago. It didn’t take many years to advance, it just took good enough weather.
Is America more like Athens, or Sparta?
I think we are both …. hedonistic AND militaristic.
Neither. America is an amalgamation of a lot of past mistakes and innovations. I wouldn’t want to imitate either failed culture.
Hedonism is an interesting topic. Hedonism makes pleasure morally good and suffering morally bad. The hedonist is driven to reduce suffering and increase pleasure. Here pleasure and suffering should be considered in their most general form. Suffering may just be the toils of the day or the soreness of it. Pleasure could be a nice conversation or the depths of depravity.
Pleasure and suffering don’t seem to be directly related to morals so far, so it must be the context that is important. What are the goals and more importantly by what means does a person achieve them?
Didn’t Jesus Christ come to help men navigate those waters? He taught a way to navigate the stream of life without leaving it. I think the evil people try to jump out of the stream of life to avoid its suffering and to control it, but they do not realize they have already killed themselves.
Just this morning, the sermon, coming from 1Peter 4, was titled “Embrace Suffering”. Jesus told all Christians to expect to be hated, just as he was hated. Peter told the early church to not be like the “pagans” who were “living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry”. He also told them they will “heap abuse on you”.
Was it so different in the Roman Empire Peter was in from Greece 50 years prior or the West today?
Perhaps these tendencies are as old as time itself, Stuck. Maybe they come from the same place and are merely defined by their varied expression.
Because, it seems, both styles of society have had their days in the sun.
The seasons cycle and each turning has a beginning, middle, and end. But the decay is always… inevitable. First, the bloom fades. Then, the wilting. Until, finally, only ashes or dust.
America wilts as soldiers march and revelers party like there’s no tomorrow.
And, in the end, the only certainties were always death and taxes, death and taxes, death and taxes. Though not, necessarily, in that order: Tic, toc. Tic, toc. Tic, toc.
How did we think it would end? With a bang or a whimper.
Thank you for answering.
Have you, like myself, every wondered WHY it’s inevitable??
It’s not like empires are actual living organisms with hard-coded expiration dates. Yes, empires are people, people are living and expire … but it’s not the same thing. Empire is an idea, a human construct. There is no logical reason, imho, why they must follow the cycle of life to death.
You would think with thousands of years of human history studying thousands of empires, specifically as to why they died ….. that we could construct an Empire that avoids those (almost always_ same or similar mistakes. Couldn’t we construct an Early Warning System? “Oh oh, we’re starting to become to debauched, just like Rome, lets take action NOW to stop it., Nip it in the bud!!”
(These are thinking-out-loud / rhetorical ponderings. No need to answer … unless you have an answer!)
Please don’t ask me HOW this would be done. I’m just an idea dude. The details I leave to others. 🙂
Spengler answers those questions pretty handily. I wish I could read it in the original German because it is a bit dense in the only translation around and takes a lot of time to wrap your head around.
Concise description of the utterly failed notion that is Democracy.
All societies are ruled by the elites, and as those elites become greedier, less intelligent and less public spirited, which seems inevitable, your society becomes more violent, repressive, and engages in futile, but profitable wars….Greece, Rome, and every one since has gone this route…..Democracies have a shorter life span than any other form of government, but they all commit suicide…l
That’s one heck of a quote. From the author of “The Decline of the West“, no less.
Stuck wrote:
Spengler identified civilizations as organisms with lifespans, of sorts, and that death and decay is baked into the cake, so to speak. He was influenced by Nietzsche and perhaps “Will To Power” is the same source from which both warmongering and hedonism derive?
Or it could be as simple as life and death instincts within individuals manifesting as law and lawlessness in societies.
Or perhaps the generations merely forget and, hence, decay. And, if so, then maybe the Biblical axioms are true – that the people perish from lack of knowledge and without vision, the people perish.
What I find interesting, though, is this: individuals are unpredictable, but, en masse, the trends unwind like clockwork and right on time.
Although Oswald Spengler died in the 1930s, he predicted Western Civilization’s death convulsions as beginning in force around the year 2000.
Lucky guess? Or just math? Perhaps the result of the reduction to the mean.
Hedonism and Militarism are flip sides of the same coin.
Built back better with threats on one side, Hubris on the other.
Bingo. Anyone that’s lived on a near a military bases knows all about the pawn shops, blood banks, tattoo shops, strip bars, drugs, prostitutes and vice in general that follows the proud, the few , the brave like stink on shit. Send you kid to the army, it’ll make a man out of them , they said.
The military is a debauchery machine. It can only destroy.
Declining intelligence and consequently a refusal to plan for the future is the key….
I believe that is an accurate description of where we are.
Democracy is, in spite of the frilly accoutrements, still just glorified mob rule – even with benevolent leadership(which we haven’t seen in some time)…even a democratic republic, constitutionally based, as we have, though workable, still leaves something to be desired. Our, mankind’s, problem is we are not basically good with an ability to do bad, we are bad, with a preponderance to stay bad, but by God’s enabling, able to do some good.
Man is not a learning animal.
Oh he can learn, but seldom thinks for himself.
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
A malicious person probably coined that term.
So what you did there. 😉
Yes.
Excellent, the brevity of length will ensure heightened readership.
There was a difference between Athene/Sparta and modern democracies: the two Greek city states didn’t have politicians per se. All citizen were politicians (involved or not) in all decisions. Whereas we elect politicians who do not do what they were elected to do. The comparison is unfair.
And then we elect them again, and again.
All voters are politicians.
The comparison is apt.
All voters need to be statesmen [ real citizens ].
Scenario: You died. You are being judged. You have been found wanting for wasting your life on TBP. Da Judge (not me, the Big Kahuna) decides to give you another chance to live a life worth living. You are given the choice of going back to ancient Greece; either Athens or Sparta.
Q: Which do you choose?
Me?
Since I failed the first time due to a hedonistic existence it would be illogical to choose Athens. I would most likely be unable to change my nature — few can change their very nature — and I would be in the same predicament with Da Judge upon my second demise.
The logical choice would be Sparta.
But, I’m NOT choosing Sparta. I want NOTHING to do with this …
.
.
So, I’m a pussy. I can accept that. Hey Athens … lets get ready to PARTY!!!
You mean they only had two genders?
I do wonder about that sometimes, “wasting my life on TBP”. Oh well.
There can’t be real answers because the history of Athene was just like any other history with lots of ups and down. At the end of the Peloponnese war, Athene was way down so no hedonistic crap there,
Pylos
The best scene from the best movie, ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I
“You are being judged.”
“If we would judge ourselves we would not be judged.”
Athens. I would leave for America [ the west ] at first opportunity.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vTwSKD6LFqHmYaQV-_v0z39LLi1x-PNPBnk8QuR95xlIf-RfIMnKoSfJFhnR9gklJm5bzxqFH3OsIS_/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000&slide=id.ge216e4b1a6_0_280
We’re in this together…..(click through the document)
Great links. Thanks for sharing.
The ancient Greek world also had their power- insatiable Evil Fuckers who wanted to instill fear, subjugate everyone and install a new world order/empire demonic civilization.
Shall there be a replay of Thermopylae and Salamis ?
Where are the leaders of the resistance against the awful tyranny? Leonidas and Themistocles are again needed as never before.
Alexander The Great was tutored by Aristotle when he was 13. Some years later before embarking on his conquests Alexander and a group of his friends came upon Aristotle who was sitting on a rock on the side of a hill with his eyes closed. In a bragging manner to impress his friends Alexander walked over to Aristotle and said: “Hail Aristotle, dear and glorious teacher. I owe you much. Ask anything of me and it will be yours; even up to half my kingdom, it’s yours for the asking”. Aristotle replied: “That being so young man, I would ask that you stand away from me and allow me to continue basking in the Sun”.
That exchange was between Alexander and Diogenes
You’re quite right. Memory increasingly fails me.
https://www.helenapschrader.com/sparta-reconsidered-.html
Socrates was very influential, but I have to admit I’m skeptical about him. I guess it’s time I actually read Xenophon’s defense.
The part about Athens is not as interesting, but I would suggest The Polity of the Athenians and the Lacedaemonians (whether or not the first half was written by Xenophon) to anyone interested. If I recall, it’s a relatively short read.
It’s not just the governments, ideals, money, or any of the other things that separate the Spartans from the other Greek states. The Spartans also kept from mixing races longer than any of the others. Between that and eugenics, it’s easy to see why they were regarded as the most beautiful people as well as their other virtues.
I almost brought that part up as well but I’m am really trying to lean into brevity.
Everywhere you look there were similarities.
I have now finally looked up ‘lean in’ and ‘lean into.’
I feel like I just got ‘Nudged.’
edit: I couldn’t into phrasing
As discussed in Taleb’s works, Socrates was undermining the traditional Gods and basis for Athenian society, as the Enlightenment philosophers did to the West…Hence Socrates was part of the problem…
They had already given up on “their gods” at that point and had become a pluralistic society open to a variety of religions. That was a fig leaf. Sorta like the Clintons going to church when they were in office.
Let’s remember that Sparta was a massive slave-holding state. Without the Helots who worked the fields and labored in the shops and without the Spartan womenfolk who managed the domestic economy, the Spartan men would not have been able to devote nearly all their time and effort to their training in, and mastery of, the warrior arts.
Have you not paid attention for the last 15 months? Most people are only fit to be slaves. The problem is having racially or ethnically different slaves, because in the long run it leads to mixing.
Spartan women did have more freedom and authority than most. I’m sure as Sparta dwindled, the men regretted that.
I have enjoyed reading Greek history since I was child, and this article resonated with me. My mother had a collection of books written by Mary Renault, whom set her historical fiction tales in Greece, in addition to the usual translations of Socrates, Plato, Xenophon, the plays of Euripides and Herodtus. Perhaps you might like to find a copy of Renault’s novel ‘The last of the wine’ and read it someday.
“In all men lies evil sleeping; the good man is he who will not awaken it, in himself or in other men”
When Athens was defeated by Sparta, the Greek elites sold their proles out, much like ours in the West have to the communists.
IF history repeats, the bad news is that many Athenians’ property & lives were stolen & destroyed; the good news is the tryanny lasted little more than a year. That’s also about the length of Jacobin terror in late 18th century France.
Whilst reading The Memoirs of François René Vicomte de Chateaubriand via the Rings of Saturn I came upon this vivid description of the virtue sing milksops during the bloodiest days of the French Revolution. …nothing has changed with the weak in mind,spirit, passion and character…the passive/agressive . These are the cucks boys you never want to see with real power. Nothing is new.
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54788
“The Conventionals plumed themselves upon
being the mildest of men: good fathers, good sons, good husbands, they
went out walking with the children, acted as their nurses, wept with
tenderness at their simple games; they lifted these little lambs gently
in their arms to show them the “gee-gees” of the carts carrying the
victims to execution. They sang the praises of nature, peace, pity,
kindness, candour, the domestic virtues; these devout philanthropists,
with extreme sensibility, sent their neighbours to have their heads
sliced off for the greater happiness of mankind.”
nothing new
pull on your boots
lace up your thrill
pump up the psyche
get ready to kill
forces against us,
believing as we
the only solution
kill all that disagree.
bombs and missiles
ready for death
believe in opposition
until the last breath
puppets we elect
laugh in our face
the beginning of the end
of a civilized human race
the dollar is a mirage
a fantasy writ in blood
some can’t understand
why it was never understood
days will be long
toil covered in pain
lifeblood you shed
always in vain
get on with your life
like today is your last
beyond your control
the die is cast
the corrupt always rule
of this be sure
the only recourse
is God as the cure
Delighted to have it first thing in the morning, here in Reno Nv
Just an observation, everything seems to be an experiment these days and we are unwilling to say no to the experiment. Why not? history will not change no matter how many people try and rewrite it. I am old, tired and very angry at my fellow man, as they just do not deserve to live anymore and seem to be trying real, hard not to.
There is a reason why nobody can trace their lineage to the Senators of Rome or the ruling elites of Athens or Sparta.
People grew tired of them and killed them all, root and branch. They were the changing epochs. We are near one again.
Interesting observation.
Of course no one can trace their lineage to Rome, Athens or Sparta regardless of their rank or status, memory doesn’t last that long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUAaFavh8sA
couldn’t resist
The wishful thinking of a helot, a slave. Even a plebeian would not betray their complete lack of education by saying such obviously fictional nonsense.
TL/DR
the story from xenophon also relates that the greeks were in persia as mercenaries, and at the death of their persian paymaster prince made the war pointless. to continue, they would be fighting for nothing and no one. surely there was more than coin in that deal – i sniff greek scheming of the great game flavor.
so, avoid foreign entanglements? the death of empires is baked in the cake when the justification of projection of force becomes part of the moral framework? so many empires fall on Thucydides trap – get them before they get us. we are very likely to go there with china, but in 6th generation warfare without a shot fired if they have their way.
the narrative example of socrates can also be transposed to represent the opposite parties in our time. imagine we are the traditional greeks, and socrates is corrupting the youth with workness.
what example is most informative? socrates was radical, from the point of view of traditionalists, but the real measure was that his criticisms required his students think for themselves. were the traditionalists justified in trying to squash a free thinking rebel? did the traditionalists want to freeze the process change which was, is and will always be? do we truly believe the ability to think critically will always be consistent with freedom?
how can it not, as long as there is an accepted moral foundation – which is exactly where the Founders landed. if there is no moral foundation, free thinking, wishful thinking will always lead to abominations against nature, absurdities, and atrocities.
empire is inconsistent with Christian Morality, and will always lead from critical thinking consistent with nature’s laws, to free thinking (do as thou wilt) amorality, corruption and downfall.
i am not aware of a better formulation of human’s relation with nature’s laws than Christianity, read as Aquinas or CS Lewis, not Jerry Falwell or that ilk. and i have looked…
QED.
People who don’t think will always hate those who do.