Less is always more when it comes to electric vehicles.
The latest news is that doubling the voltage of commercial charging infrastructure – from 400 to 800 volts – will “reduce” the time it takes to instill a partial recharge to “only” about twice the time it takes to refuel a non-electric car to full.
Italicized to emphasize the usual dishonesty of presentation when it comes to “news” – always glorious! – about electric cars. In this case, the attempt to equate the time it takes to refuel most any non-electric car to full with the time it takes to put a partial charge in an electric car – using commercial infrastructure that doesn’t exist – without explaining to the marks that if you only get a partial charge, you’ll be recharging again and soon. 
That means even if 800 volt charging facilities were hey, presto’d! into existence tomorrow, reducing the time it takes to partially recharge an EV to “just” 10 minutes, it would be the equivalent of putting a perhaps a quarter-tank of gas in a non-electric car (enough to go about 100 miles) which would take less than five minutes in the non-electric car.
And then? If you’re driving the partially charged electric car?
You stop, again.
But it’s “only” another ten minutes!
Which makes 20, total. And these 20 aren’t at home, which means it’s more than less because you have to add in the time it takes to get to the “fast” charger – and then get home – because no homes can “fast” charge an electric car at 800 volts or even 400 as they are not set up to handle that kind of load. Neither are the neighborhoods and outlying areas, where it would be be necessary to re-wire everything to make this “work.”
And it’s not even the same 100 miles as it would be if we were talking about partially fueling a non-electric car.
Because in an electric car, it is necessary to always have sufficient reserve charge available to account for the varying range of the EV. Which may go considerably less far than the “100 miles” of hypothetical range instilled, depending on such things as the weather (very cold or very hot) which are factors that have very little effect on the range of non-electric cars – because gasoline doesn’t lose energy when it gets colder or hotter.
Batteries do.
What if the putative “100 miles” of partially charged range is only 80, in fact – because it’s 26 degrees outside and that plus running the heater has reduced it by 20 percent? This happens, commonly. But it’s not common knowledge because it’s not reported and explained to the marks being cattle-prodded into the Wonderful World of Electrification – where they will pay twice as much for an electric car that goes half as far on a full charge – and which will make them wait either much longer or much more frequently.
Italics, again, to really make the point.
Even if given he benefit of many doubts, a partial charge is not a full charge, is it? That that means you will be stopping again, sooner. Just as you would have to do if you never filled up your non-electric car’s tank to full but instead only put a quarter of a tank in at a time.
If you have to “fast” charge twice in one day, using the not-yet-hey-presto’d 800 volt commercial recharging architecture that isn’t available except in a very few industrially wired areas, then you are spending twice 10 minutes at the least – i.e., 20 minutes – to get less than what five minutes would cost you once, with a non-electric car. 
And if you don’t want to stop more than once each day then you’ll be obliged to organize your day around the much longer wait it takes to instill a full charge at even the “fastest” charger, which can’t charge your battery pack to full, “fast” because of the heat and attendant fire risk. This is why “fast” charging to “full” is in fact about 80 percent full. Which means if you want 100 percent charged – and the full advertised range that’s touted by the manufacturer, you will then have to sit for considerably longer while the remaining 20 percent is slow-charged, so as to reduce (not eliminate) the possibility of damaging the battery or setting it alight.
There is also the Other People Factor to consider.
If there is someone ahead of you, plugged in for his “fast” (and partial) charge then you must add his wait to yours. This will scale in a not-happy way for EV people because the throughput problem will increase the more EVs there are in need of “fast” charging.
A gas station with six pumps can refuel (to full) six cars in about five minutes; in ten minutes, twelve cars – and so on. Throughput is not a problem because refueling non-electric cars to full is fast – and a refueled-to-full car will not need to be re-fueled, again . . . for days.
How about six “fast” chargers? Six EVs can be partially charged in about 10 ten minutes, so the wait for the next six is already twice as long as it would be refuel a gas car to full, once the gas car ahead of you is fueled.
But it is likely there will be more than just one EV in line ahead of you, waiting for its partial charge, because so many EVs were partially charged and now they need to get some more charge, again.
This assumes an 800 volt architecture which doesn’t exist.
And they ask me why I drink . . .
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EV charging rate is a non-issue. I have an electric car for the past five years. I charge it at home 99% of the time. It charges at night, so whether it takes 1 hour or 8 is irrelevant. The only time charging matters at all is if I forget or taking trips.
The real issue with electric cars is the cost. They are still not cost effective compared to gas cars.
“The only time charging matters at all is if I forget or taking trips.”
Right. That’ll never happen.
What sort of weirdo wants to ‘take trips’ anyway?
Normal people just want to sit in their pod and eat bugs.
Serious question: How much did it cost to install the charger, including the second power panel and 240v (what 60A, 80A?) lines to the garage?
It cost me about $1200 a couple of years ago.
I figure about 50 bucks. a Two-pole 240 fuse and charging cord hardwired to the fuse. most cars charge at 32 amps. I figure 16 amps for a few hours is enough for me.
No, the real issue with electric cars — electric anything — is, what are you gonna do when the power goes out (or when the blackouts start)?
Put a crank case up front?
It amazes me how people never think this through. I bought a duel-fuel generator (propane or petrol) just for backup when the power goes out; and it has already served its purpose, when a storm came through and knocked our electricity out for 13 hours… but really only about 5, because the outage started overnight, when we were sleeping; by the time I awoke at 6am I had the main switched over to the generator, and we all went to the Winchester until this blew over (hello, Shaun of the Dead!).
All flippancy aside, the point is had I not had fuel-powered generator, we would have had no electricity. I’m thinking of building a Tesla coil in my garage…
I see this argument a lot. My cars are always charged up to 90 percent in the garage, giving me about 280 miles of range, regardless of the state of the grid. So, if the grid is down and you need to drive somewhere in an ICE vehicle and don’t have enough fuel, what will you do? Go down to the local gas station and use your electronic credit card in the electric gas pump?
Snarkiness aside, outages are not good for travel, whatever you’re driving.
Who down votes General? He was an early adapter, and has given us first person reports from time to time on his real life experiences. Peters is a loon. Tesla is a massive success. They just opened two brand new megafactories. Say hello pickup truck and semi. The other car companies, total POS. The electric F-150 is going to suck. Why? Because they’re starting with an F-150. Aerodynamics matter a lot for range. You’ve got none in an F-150. And don’t get me started on GM. They have become the private industry equivalent of NASA. The largest collection of female and minority engineers that have a piece of paper that says they are an engineer, but don’t understand engineering, that money can buy. Without billions in federal subsidies for supposedly building electric cars 10 years from now, GM would be bankrupt tomorrow
Get back to me with a full report when you’ve driven your Tesla (or whatever EV) for 20 years.
And yet the mid-engine Chevy Corvette is rated the best sports car and outsold Porsche last year.
Mine is coming in July.
The table below is from 2021. The 2022 numbers are significantly higher.
Elon musk said a pickup truck is easy, it just gets a larger battery. I just don’t see a truck EV as being good for hauling a trailer long distance. But TPTB doesn’t seem concerned with the RV/boating industry, and I don’t hear or read anything from that industry in the news.
You’ve been blowing Tesla for a decade now. I sincerely admire your persistence.
New fangled stuff scares the folks on TBP. Electric cars and Bitcoin are of the Devil!
People who think ‘new’ is automatically good/better are just exposing their historical knowledge crater.
The answer then is like the old days when you could buy a Jaguar, but you shouldn’t get one as your only car. I’ve looked at the trips I regularly take and the electric cars I could afford. While in my current Ford Explorer, I can fill up before leaving town, then again at my destination, then again when I get home. The particular Tesla, I’d have to stop at least once on the way, then be sure I stayed at a hotel with electric car charging (last Marriott I stayed at did not have charging available) or walking distance from one, then on the return, the same one, maybe two stops to get home.
Just not practical. And how is it better for the environment for me to have two cars when I need only one. Oh, you say rent a car for the trips. Yes, except rental cars are hard to get these days too, and more expensive than just a year or two ago. Plus it’s an extra thing to do before each trip and after each trip. If you’re a two car family anyway, that could work, although one of you will still be using that climate-destroying fossil fuel car all the time.
And how much more coal will have to be burned to create the electricity to support those charging stations?
As a very conservative Tesla driver, I’m not terribly concerned where it comes from. Here in Arizona, mine is about 50 pct natural gas, 30 pct nuclear, and I’m not sure about the other 20 pct. Not an environmentalist whacko, as Rush used to say. I’d prefer more nuclear, but don’t mind the natural gas, as I actually own some gas-producing land in Texas, which has been very good to me recently 😉 .
Do you see a need to push EVs for everyone through legislation/regulation?
Absolutely not. Drive what you like and like what you drive.
Most people charge at home, many using solar. A new thing I keep reading about is using a hydrogen generator to produce electricity at home.
The higher the voltage, the smaller the wire size needed for the conductors to carry the load.
But, the higher the voltage the more insulation is needed on the conductors and everything else in the electron path. Dielectric breakdown occurring in DC circuits is far more dangerous than in AC circuits by virtue of the AC crossing zero volts twice per cycle and providing a chance for the arc to be quenched. The DC arc will continue until major damage of some sort happens. Voltage stress on components increases non-linearly, so be careful what you wish for.
Of course any 7th grader knows that doubling the number of turns on the secondary winding of the AC transformer will ~double the output voltage. Let’s tell the greenies that if their 800 volts is good then 1,600 volts is better and of course by that logic 3,200 volts is even better. I’ll bet even Greta knows that.
Insulation (or dialectric) solids breakdown in most cases is permanent as even a “brief” arc will decompose the chemicals into soot or similar, and leave a permanent short.
Only one problem. Per the Natl Elec Code anything over 600V is considered High Voltage. Why you might ask? Your skin has dry resistance to 600V and less. Anything more is potentially (no pun) deadly if only an arc or ground fault. But when the Genocidal Maniacs are clearly and sadly now in charge since we have no media to fight them, no matter if we fry humanity for a good cause.
I can just see Karen donning an arc flash suit just to “fuel up” her EV.
Knew a guy who worked at the old Alcoa aluminum plant in Arkansas as a plant electrician. They were allowed to work on hot circuits up to 660VAC. Not something I’d ever want to try.
Many people are charging on 240 at 32 amps at home. What level of power would be a good thing to work with? 48v is mighty hot to me. I am careful about all sources of electricity I am around.
I’d hate to work in a confined space like that.
What theory is that?
I was taught dry skin&body resistance is about 5kΩ, but with sweaty hands 1kΩ or lower.
That would lead to 120-600 mA flowing through your body at 600V, which -for AC- if going through your torso can easily kill you.
When I went to university in Germany, anything over 1000V was considered high voltage – as I understood it, because the air gap required for insulation becomes non-trivial above 1000V.
Yes, electric cars are a total scam…An all-electric fleet would require 3x the current generation in the US, which is actually going to decline, and would require many trillions of infrastructure improvements…all to support vehicles which are LESS efficient than internal combustion vehicles…
Elon needs to figure out a way to somehow incorporate ethanol into the charging scheme-the federal subsidy for his ethanol powered Tesla owned charging infrastructure would be a win-win for a lot of people.
PLUS it would require raping the land for the raw materials. Something on the order of 100x’s the annual global production of lithium, cobalt, and other materials needed just for the battery packs. Math doesn’t work from a mining aspect either… Chip
I think you are way too optimistic on the situation…what’s really going to happen?!
I think this is how planet of the apes started
Not many things can beat blasting down the road in a fast V8 internal combustion beast with the stereo blaring, straight pipes blasting out the back….
OSHA is gonna have to do something about that silent drive, or more old ppl, kids and stray pets are gonna get run over and killed in the parking lots by cars backing out that no one can hear. Might I propose we go back to the old-standby, when we used to clothespin playing cards to the spokes on our bikes, to simulate the sound of a real engine….. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz….
It’s something called a backup alert beeper and it’s already equipped on certain vehicles, activated when you go into reverse. The manual solution without it is called looking in the rear view and using a horn but it doesn’t account for old people, babies, drunks or animals who don’t necessarily play by the same rules of logic.
Here is the all electric Audi e-Tron’s simulated sound. Like a jet engine!
Well this is one of those fantastic, delicious, right on and so very ‘incorrect’ pieces I have read on my favorite website for some time. And Jeez we really do need some hilarity amid the stone cold b.s. out there. To be even more ‘incorrect:’ I have an off-grid solar powered log cabin. With help – lots of it – I built that log cabin myself. I really like my solar system, but solar is waaaaay oversold just like the EVs. I will draw a veil over the gritty details, but I will just say that if I don’t get out there in the near zero winter weather and brush the snow off the panels I am out of luck. Same goes for maintaining the batteries. Anyway, enjoyed the piece and nearly all of the comments. Keep them coming. We need the break around here.
Ditto on the maintaining of a solar system. I have two systems. One with 4 batteries and 4 panels I’ve had for twelve years. Have replaced those batteries twice. Another with 16 batteries and 16 panels that I just installed last year and have not had to replace those batteries yet. Batteries are $250 a pop so you can do the math. And too many cloudy days in a row and your out of power anyway. Best to have solar with generator and grid backups. The more redundancy the better… Chip
Yep. Points one through four are valid, but point five is the money shot, and don’t y’all forget it. Being “paranoid” is not a bad thing.
It is not paranoia if they really are out to get you, it is situational awareness.
Yes. I had a class in situational awareness yesterday. People laugh because I take the class every year when it’s offered. Oh well. The instructor mentioned his “paranoia” as others like to call it, which is why I put it in quotes, because it isn’t paranoia if they are out to get you. He also mentioned the Gift of Fear, which has been brought up here before. Guard up.
One of the energy thinktanks released a report yesterday. We will have an energy deficit of 20% by 2030. That is an all source measure…electric, nat gas, oil, etc.
20% is the optimistic measure. Every misstep now grows the energy deficit exponentially.
What if the “missteps” are part of the plan?
I figure I can charge off my solar/wind setup. with a new cord and a fuse. The range is enough, I can drive to local cities and back on one charge. but I like my paid for car and truck. When gasoline is ten bucks a gallon I won’t like my ICE vehicle so much, and that is the plan from TPTB.
Adapt and overcome obstacles. I will buy/build an electric vehicle in the future.