First, repeat after me; “Jesus Christ is Lord!“. There! Now ALL of you are Christians … and you can answer the question!
Q1: Should Christians give their pledge of allegiance to the State?
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I think the above picture is disgusting and anti-God!! You know who else hates it? Jesus!! “But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all!” — Mt 5:34
Me?
Absolutely not!! My reasons are articulated perfectly in the article below.
OK, maybe I’m a heathen bastard destined for the flames of hell. Being free from Christian constraints …. should I recite the pledge of allegiance? The answer is still “No!“. I will not pledge any allegiance to an entity (the State) that hates my guts, steals from me, abuses me and who wants me dead. I owe them nothing except contempt.
Preemptive Strike: If you think I should move to another country, I have but two words for you; “Blow me!“
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UNDERSTANDING ALLEGIANCES
Of all people, Christians in America should be the first ones to raise questions about our relationship to the State. Should we stand? Or—should we sit? Should we give our allegiance to the State? Or to Jesus? Or can we somehow do both?
Christians too often ignore these questions, or they get mad when people raise them. Try blowing up your next Bible study by asking the question: Should Christians stand for the national anthem or recite the Pledge of Allegiance? You might just start a fight.
The first Christians, however, would have gladly wrestled with these questions—and they did. The early church’s relationship to Rome was a pressing issue, and Scripture speaks to it with profound clarity. Paul says that Christians should submit to the State (Romans 13:1-4), obey its laws (Titus 3:1), and pray for its leaders (1 Timothy 2:1-2). Peter says the same thing (1 Peter 2:13-14), and Jeremiah encouraged Jewish exiles to “seek the welfare of Babylon” where they were living in exile (Jeremiah 29:7). Christians are to be good citizens.
Christians are also to be subversive citizens, political prophets who boldly live out a narrative of weakness, suffering, sacrifice and death.
The apostles publicly refused to submit to Rome’s laws when they conflicted with the way of Christ (Acts 4:19; 5:29), and Israel’s wild-eyed prophets denounced the nations—including their own—for violence, oppression, and mistreating the marginalized (Amos 1-2). The fulcrum of the biblical story hinges on a revolutionary peasant-King who received the death penalty for treason.
It’s no wonder the Roman authorities felt threatened by the rise of the Christian movement, which “turned the world upside down” by “acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus” (Acts 17:6-7). The Christian proclamation that Jesus is King is inherently a political protest.
THE REAL REVELATION OF REVELATION
No one said it as clearly as John in his political tract called “The Apocalypse of Christ,” otherwise known as the Book of Revelation.
It’s unfortunate that this subversive piece of literature has been hijacked by contemporary newspaper theologians who use it to predict the end of the world in bewildering detail.
The book of Revelation is an aggressive critique of the government, written by a pastor imprisoned for his lack of patriotism. John boldly lambasts Rome for its immorality, greed, pride, excessive luxury, and an addiction to military might that stained the world with blood to secure its interests (Revelation 17-18).
Rome believed it was the hope of the world, the founder of peace (the pax Romana), and the savior of those who pledge their allegiance. All of these, of course, are religious statements—an affront on God’s reign over the earth. “Come out of her, my people!” cries the angels of heaven, “lest you take part in her sins!” (Revelation 18:4).
Even one of Rome’s own senators exposed their charade: “To plunder, butcher, steal, these things they misname empire: they make a desert and they call it peace” (Tacitus, AD 56 – ca. 117).
The Christian identity has always been a quiet threat to the way of Rome. Submit to the State? Yes. But submission must come with a confident grin that a better way, a superior narrative, a crucified empire is peacefully crashing in on the empires of the world.
When governments pitch themselves as the hope and savior of the world, Christians must expose the fraudulent claim, not celebrate it.
No Christian in the first 300 years after Jesus would have pledged allegiance to Rome during a church gathering. Roman flags didn’t stand next to Christian flags in first-century house churches, and followers of Jesus viewed themselves as citizens of One: One Lord, One baptism, One kingdom of sojourners scattered across the earth as colonies of heaven. Christians in America are more like Israelite exiles living in Babylon than Jewish kings reigning in Israel.
To pledge allegiance is a profoundly religious act. It’s a religious statement infused with divided loyalties and borders on syncretism.
I think the burden of proof rests on those followers of the crucified Lamb to show that citizens of heaven can truly pledge allegiance to anyone other than Christ—and that’s something Christians need to think about deeply.
SOURCE: relevantmagazine.com
THE END
The Pledge of Allegiance has always made me uncomfortable even in grade school.
And I don’t think there should be a flag of any state in a church.
In Vacation Bible School we pledged allegiance to the U.S. flag, then to the Christian flag, and then to the Bible. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn’t belong…
I never has a problem doing the pledge in grade school, the last I can recall doing so “publicly”. Then beginning Jr. High or “middle school” around ’67, I don’t remember doing so, maybe we did.
A flag next to a pulpit in a church is not appropriate IMO. And one reason I never participate in any church service that has any form of idolatry within the confines of the church, not even present outside. I’ve been to churches, in recent years a Lutheran church, where it seemed the “theme” of the whole thing centered around veterans with the flag right up front where the Gospel of Jesus Christ should be preached , not staring at some form of idolatry. Does not mean I do not love my country , BTW.
When you repeat something over and over, year after year … especially when it is compulsory …. then the ideas behind the pledge become meaningless. The person doesn’t even think about its true meaning. Endless repetition results in meaningless words chanted like a zombie, the clanging of cymbals.
That’s what happened to me, anyway, in grade school.
True story- in third grade our substitute teacher had the class do the pledge. Somehow I knew even then it was BS to pledge to a flag so I flipped off the flag and was sent to the principal. I’m sure I didn’t know what the “bird” meant other than it was disrespectful. So started my life long battle with authority. Lost some of the battles but I’m still here and haven’t given in to their crap yet. Love the country, the government not so much.
Never give up, never give in.
What I find disgusting are churches that wave a State of Israel flag out front on the flag pole and likely inside next to the pulpit along with Old Glory. But we must not forget a Donald Trump quote , ““I’ll tell you the evangelical Christians love Israel more than the Jews in this country. It used to be that Israel used to have absolute power over Congress. And today it’s the exact opposite. “
“Rebellion to tyrant’s is obedience to God”
Benjamin Franklin
Allegiance to the state ends in good conscience when it requires one to act against God and/or as a U.S citizen our U.S. Constitution.
Even If those words were true never, they say the pledge at township meetings I just laugh, because the opposite is true.
1st commandment tells you what comes 1st
how do you get a man to understand when his salary depends on misunderstanding, Ill tell you how only when they lose that salary, but hey taxpayers have deep pockets-the ROOT of the problem is the love of money.
80% Fraud
Acts 5
“(AK)We must obey God rather than men. 30 (AL)The God of our fathers (AM)raised up Jesus, whom you (AN)put to death by hanging Him on [v](AO)a cross. 31 (AP)He is the one whom God exalted [w]to His right hand as a [x](AQ)Prince and a (AR)Savior, to grant (AS)repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are (AT)witnesses [y]of these things; and (AU)so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Peter and the Apostles
I think an appropriate follow up question would be if God allows rebellion to tyranny
What would He consider an appropriate form and still remain faithful to Him?
Ask those of whom the book of the Judges is written about.
First grade was Corpus Christi, TX. The bathroom was in the classroom, & class business could be heard while business was being done (& vice versa). A boy in that class was a spitter, & that teacher, a woman, made him eat soap in front of everybody. And P of A was performed, first thing every morning…or else, who knew what.
Second grade was (outside) Seattle, WA. Pretty sure no P of A there. Ditto third grade, St. Pete, FL.
Allegiance is earned; its “pledged” via that earning. If you just happen to be “born into it,” among or-else big people, what you got there is failure to communicate-comprehend that you’re being dipped in Lemon Pledge. Polished, like a piece of furniture.
I have had the instruction “render unto Caesar” directed my way. It always struck me as convenient. Like, between God & Caesar, “who am I?”
Along with the pledge, back in the day, was “Officer Friendly.” When the hippies were on the evening news, marching & spitting the epithet “pig,” I was warned, threateningly, to never ever risk way worse than soapmouth by calling the popo pigs.
Again, that kind of coerced testimony ain’t the Respect Aretha sang about.
So it was made to seem all the cops, God & Caesar, was good cops. I knew nothing of Milgram’s plagiarizing of reality experiment, but I knew lots of people whose names might just as well have been “Milgram.” Growing up was a series of shocks.
My first job, age thirteen, was on a pig farm. After first, subsequent, run-ins with Officer Friendlys, beginning a few years later, it was clear there was no comparison. Some pigs are more equal than others, & some just have guns (& military hardware nowadays).
We do not attend church services on government holiday weekends for this very reason. Keep your government out of my church.
Amen!!!!!! Comprende, Robert Jeffress?
I attended church yesterday but not in recognition of Independence Day and no flag, no mention of it from the pulpit.
Matthew 22:21
Never regardless of faith
I’m a Christian and a Southerner so No I do not take it serious (and esp to a communist coup) but I still put my hand over my heart at Republican Party and gov’t meetings where it’s said but it means nothing to me anymore if ever. I don’t run the meetigs and really have no say at all; that “pledge” is like the nominal public prayer, better to have it for show than not have it at all. Politicians and judges don’t take any of their pledges seriously.
perhaps back in the christian roman empire (aka byzantium) before it succumbed to corruption, i’d say yes. nowadays?
Give the devil his due, bruh…
I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the Great Reset
and for the Oligarchy for which it stands:
one Corporatocracy under Central Control , incorrigible,
with servitude and complacency for all.
Allegiance to the flag, is allegiance to the principals the country was founded on, which is primarily the sovereignty of the Citizen. The US was formed to allow men to own themselves, rather than be owned by a King or Emperor.
If that somehow conflicts with your religion, then by all mean GTFO and do not ever return.
Liberty and justice for all is long gone, hence the need to question why we should fill our brains with double speak. Are we even still a republic? Politicians, government education, and the media tell us that we are something else.
Amen … and finally some common sense in this matter.
I recall being admonished — told? — in the Bible to ‘render unto God what is God’s and unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. Obviously those who wrote these words acknowledge that we co-exist in both the Spiritual and the material worlds … we’re just supposed to remember which is which and have the appropriate priorities regarding them.
I recall words from years ago: We are Spiritual Beings on a human journey —
True enough.
But, when those “principals” have been abandoned then so will I abandon my allegiance. Apparently you believe I should keep my allegiance just for old times sake. Screw that.
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Blow me.
I pledge allegiance to my neighbors and fellow citizens and the ideals enumerated in the Declaration which one of my relatives signed, and the Constitution. I will never pledge to support the criminal communists and grifter filth who have stolen the country. I now replace the king and Britain with Democrat, RINO and Uniparty when I read the Declaration today. Just like the way one can identify the characters in “Atlas Shrugged” with present day scum.
It’s a great topic, difficult to understand but an honest question and pertinent study.
Should we give our allegiance to the State? Or to Jesus? Or can we somehow do both?
Jesus said we cannot serve God and mammon so, NO. Priorities – God, Family, Guns/Country
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
A simple study of the words ( dues, tribute ) could be rendered. “Pay your debts and taxes.” Jesus did pay taxes to Caesar. This is in harmony with verse 8 and eliminates what could be considered a direct contradiction.
Versus 1-7 cannot be understood without context of the whole chapter and adhered to according to the instructions and parameters of versus 8-14. If the higher powers are acting outside these parameters there is no justification to submit to them.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
if they are inside the parameters of vs. 8-14
I think he is just demonstrating what looks like a contradiction and exposing the misunderstanding of Ch 12 based on his following paragraph.
Ch 12 of Romans: :18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Sometimes it is not possible and you do want needs to be done to stay true to the faith, your family, and friends.
Anyway that’s just my understanding.
You should pledge allegiance to principles and values, but never a piece of cloth or a government.
One nation under God…
Which God? God is a generic title. Don’t go all “it begins with a capital letter” on me, in the original Hebrew there was no upper vs. lower case, no punctuation, and often no spaces between words.
The fiat currency states “In God We Trust.” Again I ask, which God? Mammon? or some other?
You’re thinking too much … and don’t confuse anything in/from/about hebrew with God … that God was the God of hatred and vengeance — quite the opposite of the God of Love and Mercy and Grace that is the true Creator of All …
You’re not thinking enough. You sound like a gnostic. The God of whom I speak IS the loving Creator, not the demiurge.
Marcionite!!!
(look it up)
“When governments pitch themselves as the hope and savior of the world, Christians must expose the fraudulent claim, not celebrate it.”
Well there goes Dominion Theology.
Rome lived upon its principal till ruin stared it in the face.
Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome.
By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers,
carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East,
the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt;
and the carts brought out nothing but loads of dung.
That was their return cargo.
” Rome lived upon its principal till ruin stared it in the face.
Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome.
By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers,
carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East,
the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt;
and the carts brought out nothing but loads of dung.
That was their return cargo.”
— I pledge allegiance to all those who get up in the morning, go to work and pay their own bills.
How about that? And we don’t even need a flag.
My dad taught me that the three things to revere most are God (always #1) and then family and country. The order of family and country was subject to change. If your country suppressed your religion or your family, then family would supersede country in importance and you’d be right to flee that country. If you had a family member that betrayed your country, then I suppose duty to country would supersede family ties.
In answer to the QOTD, I’d say that I can pledge allegiance to the country, but only conditional allegiance, never “my country right or wrong”.
A very thought provoking question, Stuck, and followed by interesting comments in this thread.
MrLiberty (love the irony) wrote the following above:
And Iska put it this way, which is sort of saying the same thing:
The New Testament says in the Book of Matthew: “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
And the Old Testament’s Book of Samuel says: “…for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart”
To Pledge Allegiance to the Flag (and the Republic for which it stands) according to the principles as follows:
1.) one indivisible nation
2.) under God (although it wasn’t included in the original versions of the pledge)
3.) With liberty and justice for all.
Would God find fault with an honest and earnest commitment to those principles?
Maybe not?
But, then again, the Book of Matthew also cites Jesus as advising against speaking “vain repetitions as the heathens do” (paraphrased) and the Pledge of Allegiance, in its early iterations, were especially focused on national (in lieu of spiritual) unity.
And, besides, once the word “God” was added what could possibly go wrong?
When the going gets tough? Stucky you fucknut quiter. This country made you one of the richest men in history. You ate T-bones and drank good whiskey like the rest of us. You own property and vote. So it ain’t going your way at the moment? Suck it up, this shit is just getting started.
OK, goyem, go fight about this new stupid shit we’ve cooked up for you – and go back to ignoring jewish power.
My early schools included flags in the classroom and we all said the Pledge of Allegiance. I proudly placed my hand over my heart and never thought anything of it.
My early Sunday School/Church days? I don’t recall an American flag in those places.
These days, and for the past 35 or so years (following the birth of my daughter), I offer up a thanks to God every morning for all that I have & enjoy in this life and am only reminded of The Regime when I check out the news over my morning coffee.
Can a 5 year old pledge allegiance?
Of course not.
But they can get a sex change operation and take a COVID vaccine!!!
I find it hard to pledge allegiance to the Yankee states of America who have run this whole country into the toilet for the final flush. We have now been reconstructed into Yankee/Libtardfornia due to everyone moving into the south so it can finally draw it’s last breath. Goodbye Dixie……..
My main hiccup with it the “indivisable” that was added to it.
And…it maybe should be amended to say: :With Liberty and Justice for Some.” instead of “All”.
If you think Texas Senator John Cornyn will face any heat for his association with the recently raided-by-the FBI alliantgroup in Houston, well don’t hold your breath.
He is the “Some”.
I have no doubt his picture still hangs on their executive floor.
I know this thread is dead …. but adding this for posterity …. a brief history regarding the origins of the Pledge ………..written by a preacher to sell magazine subscriptions !
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Francis Bellamy was a Baptist minister’s son from upstate New York. Educated in public schools, he distinguished himself in oratory at the University of Rochester before following his father to the pulpit, preaching at churches in New York and Boston. But he was restive in the ministry and, in 1891, accepted a job from one of his Boston congregants, Daniel S. Ford, principal owner and editor of the Youth’s Companion, a family magazine with half a million subscribers.
Assigned to the magazine’s promotions department, the 37-year-old Bellamy set to work arranging a patriotic program for schools around the country to coincide with opening ceremonies for the Columbian Exposition in October 1892, the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’ arrival in the New World. Bellamy successfully lobbied Congress for a resolution endorsing the school ceremony, and he helped convince President Benjamin Harrison to issue a proclamation declaring a Columbus Day holiday.
A key element of the commemorative program was to be a new salute to the flag for schoolchildren to recite in unison. But as the deadline for writing the salute approached, it remained undone. “You write it,” Bellamy recalled his boss saying. “You have a knack at words.” In Bellamy’s later accounts of the sultry August evening he composed the pledge, he said that he believed all along it should invoke allegiance. The idea was in part a response to the Civil War, a crisis of loyalty still fresh in the national memory. As Bellamy sat down at his desk, the opening words—”I pledge allegiance to my flag”—tumbled onto paper. Then, after two hours of “arduous mental labor,” as he described it, he produced a succinct and rhythmic tribute very close to the one we know today: I pledge allegiance to my flag and the Republic for which it stands—one Nation indivisible—with liberty and justice for all. (Bellamy later added the “to” before “the Republic” for better cadence.)
Millions of schoolchildren nationwide took part in the 1892 Columbus Day ceremony, according to the Youth’s Companion. Bellamy said he heard the pledge for the first time that day, October 21, when “4,000 high school boys in Boston roared it out together.”
But no sooner had the pledge taken root in schools than the fiddling with it began. In 1923, a National Flag Conference, presided over by the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, ordained that “my flag” should be changed to “the flag of the United States,” lest immigrant children be unclear just which flag they were saluting. The following year, the Flag Conference refined the phrase further, adding “of America.”
In 1942, the pledge’s 50th anniversary, Congress adopted it as part of a national flag code. By then, the salute had already acquired a powerful institutional role, with some state legislatures obligating public school students to recite it each school day. But individuals and groups challenged the laws. Notably, Jehovah’s Witnesses maintained that reciting the pledge violated their prohibition against venerating a graven image. In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled in the Witnesses’ favor, undergirding the free-speech principle that no schoolchild should be compelled to recite the pledge.
A decade later, following a lobbying campaign by the Knights of Columbus—a Catholic fraternal organization—and others, Congress approved the addition of the words “under God” within the phrase “one nation indivisible.” On June 14, 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower signed the bill into law.
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https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-man-who-wrote-the-pledge-of-allegiance-93907224/
Stucky- How long before CONgress takes out “under God” and inserts “under the WEF” ?