CHINA – CONTINUED BOOM OR EPIC BUST

In a recent article, How China Ate America’s Lunch, Clif Carothers described what China has accomplished in the last thirty years:

In thirty short years, China was able to accelerate her GDP from $216 billion to $6 trillion. She amassed reserve capital of $3 trillion. She reversed America’s fortunes from the greatest creditor nation to the greatest debtor nation. She gutted America’s factories while creating the world’s largest manufacturing base in her own country. A measure of output that highly correlates to GDP is energy consumption. In June of this year, 2011, China surpassed the United States as the largest consumer of energy on the planet. While the U.S. consumes 19% of the world’s energy, China consumes 20.3%.

While China was growing their economy by a phenomenal 2,800%, the U.S. GDP grew from $2.3 trillion to $15 trillion – a mere 650% increase, of which 420% was due to inflation. There is no question that China’s progress has been remarkable. The question is whether that growth is sustainable and built upon a solid foundation.

In a February 2010 Casey Report article titled Is China’s Recovery a Fraud?, my thesis was the $2.1 trillion stimulus package rolled out by Chinese authorities after the 2008/2009 financial crash was leading to enormous malinvestment.

The officially announced stimulus package in November 2008 totaled $586 billion and was to be invested in key areas such as housing, rural infrastructure, transportation, health and education, environment, industry, disaster rebuilding, income building, tax cuts, and finance. In reality, the central government pumped an additional $1.5 trillion into the economy in an effort to maintain social stability through the subsidization of its industrial base. Chinese banks funneled cheap loans to state-owned enterprises in order to manufacture artificial profit margins to keep Chinese goods competitive and employment maximized. In the short term, the stimulus produced the desired effect.

Specifically, the Shanghai Index – which had topped out at 5,913 in October of 2007 and had fallen to a low of 1,678 by November 2008 – responded to the stimulus by rebounding to 3,300 in January 2010, as the chart below shows.

As with all monetary and fiscal stimuli, however, the initial high is always followed by a hangover. Today the Shanghai Index stands at 2,350, down 29% from when I penned my article. China is also experiencing accelerating inflation, a real estate bubble of epic proportions, a looming banking crisis due to the billions in bad loans made by Chinese banks as commanded by the Chinese government, and growing social unrest due to rising food and energy prices.

There are few opinions in the middle regarding the China story. People are either convinced China is a juggernaut that can’t be stopped and will become the dominant world power (a recent, global Pew Poll found that 47% of respondents think China is or will be the dominant global power), or they see a colossal bubble that will burst and cause worldwide mayhem. While some might think my world-view has a negative slant, I tend toward what I think is healthy skepticism that causes me to view things in a more realistic manner.

Based on the facts as I understand them, the Chinese government has created a commercial and residential real estate bubble in an effort to keep peasants employed and not rioting in the streets. In the case of the U.S. subprime mortgage bubble, critical thinkers like Steve Eisman and Michael Burry figured out it was a bubble three years before it burst. Jim Chanos and Andy Xei have been warning about this Chinese bubble for over a year. They have been scorned by the same Wall Street shills who denied the U.S. housing bubble. As Eisman and Burry proved (reaping billions), just because you are early doesn’t mean you are wrong.

Inflated Dreams

The table below paints a troublesome picture of rising inflation and gigantic over-investment in real estate. And this takes into account the fact that, much like the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) here in the U.S. massages data, the Chinese statistics are tortured by the Party to paint the best possible picture. Even still, the Chinese government’s own numbers show inflation escalating as economic growth is slowing.

And the trend is not improving: The latest data show year-over-year inflation surging by 6.4% in June and food prices skyrocketing by 14%. With annual disposable income of less than $2,500 in urban areas and just $600 in rural areas, food and energy account for a huge percentage of the average Chinese person’s daily living expenses. The Chinese authorities are terrified by the revolutions sweeping across the Middle East and are desperate to put out the inflationary fires.

To contain stubbornly high inflation, the Chinese central bank has raised the benchmark interest rate three times this year, including the latest rate hike of 25 basis points announced on July 6. In an attempt to rein in excess lending, it has also hiked the reserve requirement ratio six times, ordering banks to keep a record high of 21.5% of their deposits in reserve.

Even with inflation surging, the Manufacturing Output Index fell to 47.2 in July – the lowest in 28 months, and indicating contraction. China’s automobile industry, which overtook the U.S. in 2010 with sales of 18 million autos, has experienced a dramatic slowdown, with growth of only 3% through June versus 32% growth last year. For all of 2011, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers expects sales to decline versus 2010.

Real Estate Out of Reach

In response to the 2008 worldwide financial collapse, Chinese authorities unleashed $2.1 trillion of stimulus, or almost 33% of GDP. This compares to the U.S. stimulus of $800 billion, or 5.5% of GDP, spent on worthless Keynesian pork. Unlike the U.S., where no jobs were created, China’s command-and-control structure funneled the stimulus into building cities, malls, roads, office buildings, and residential units. Millions of Chinese were employed in creating properties for which there was no demand. Moody’s approximates that China’s banks have funded at least RMB 8.5 trillion (US$1.3 trillion) of the RMB 10.7 trillion of outstanding local government debt, which was a significant portion of the 2008 national stimulus package. When the central authorities tell the banks to lend, the banks ask, “How much?” The result has been soaring real estate inflation and malinvestment.

Everyone has seen the pictures of the ghost cities (Chenggong) with no inhabitants; ghost malls (South China Mall, Dongguan Mall) with no shoppers; residential towers with no residents; and roads with no cars. Analyst Gillem Tolluch from Forensic Asia Limited describes the scene in China today:

China consumes more steel, iron ore and cement per capita than any industrial nation in history. It’s all going to railways that will never make money, roads that no one drives on and cities that no one lives in. It’s like walking into a forest of skyscrapers, but they’re all empty.

There are 218 million urban households in China, and the central government ordered local governments to build 36 million more units by 2015. They just have one small problem: Prices for apartments in Shanghai and other major metropolitan areas have soared by over 100% in the last five years.

The average size of a “cheap” apartment in second-tier Chinese cities is 60 square meters (650 sq ft) and fetches an average price of $1,230 per square meter, or $73,800. Mid-tier apartments in Shanghai or Beijing sell for $3,500 per square meter, or $210,000 for an average size apartment. “When prices are over 20 times more than annual household income, it’s not affordable,” says Andy Xie, an independent economist in Shanghai. Millions of working Chinese have been priced out of ever owning property and blame the corrupt local government cronies and connected speculators. Anger is simmering among the masses.

Confirming the overvaluation, a report by the Chinese Academy of Social Science points out that in the country’s metropolitan centers today, house prices per square meter generally amount to between 50% and 100% of average annual incomes. “To secure a flat of 90 square meters, an average working family in Beijing and Shanghai will have to work for more than 50 years to pay off their loans, compared to five to 10 years in the developed world,” according to the report. Report authors Lu Ding and Huang Yanjie conclude that, “[S]ky-high housing prices have undermined housing affordability and caused great anxiety and resentment among the public, who are wary of the conspiracy among ‘speculators’ – developers and government officials in charge of real estate businesses.”

House of Cards

China has methodically and relentlessly grown their economy for the last thirty years. However, as the U.S. and Europe discovered the hard way with their real estate busts, if one makes an abundance of cheap-money loans to speculators, prices will rise far above the true value of the asset bought with the debt. And in time, the bubble must burst. The pressure in this bubble is mounting. Andy Xie lays out the real situation on the ground in China:

No other government in the world would spend that kind of money. If you go to local Chinese cities, you will see what they spent that money on: Tens of millions on just trees, parks and government buildings.

All of the major ratings agencies are warning about an impending banking crisis in China. Fitch downgraded the country’s credit rating and warned there was a 60% chance the Chinese banking system will require a bailout in the next two years. Just like the U.S., China has too-big-to-fail banks, with five banks accounting for 50% of the lending in China. In a July 2011 report, Moody’s cautioned that the non-performing loans on the balance sheets of Chinese banks could rise to between 8% and 12%, versus the 1% proclaimed by Chinese officials. China’s regulators have belatedly applied the brakes, but it is too late. The house of cards looks susceptible to just the slightest of breezes.

Fraser Howie, managing director at CLSA in Singapore, captured the essence of the coming collapse in his recent assessment:

If you are going to address the misallocation of capital in the banking system and credit system, that’s going to have huge knock-on effects on the profitability and viability of the banks. And if there were a major banking crisis, you would start to see money trying to get out of China. What would the government do to maintain stability? You could have a whole host of problems. It’s almost far too complicated to contemplate.

There is one sure thing regarding bubbles: They always pop. It’s in their nature.

“There is no means of avoiding a final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.”Ludwig von Mises

Originally published in the August 2011 edition of the Casey Report.

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109 Comments
Dragline
Dragline
October 11, 2011 2:24 pm

The China story reminds me of the whole obsession with the success of “Japan, Inc.” in the 1980s and all the predictions about how Japan was going to dominate world commerce from then on out.

We all know how that turned out.

This time/country is not different. The only question is how ugly the fallout is going to be.

Centerfield
Centerfield
October 11, 2011 2:49 pm

I was just there last week (including Beijing). It didn’t matter what city I flew into, you could see construction cranes from horizon to horizon. Most of the high-rise apartments are being built on pure speculation…buyers are not moving into them. They have the mindset that what’s happened in Japan, what’s happened in the USA, can’t possibly happen here. Mao said so…it’s all in his little red book.

The big difference is that China holds the debt and not other countries. Their citizens will bear the brunt of the collapse. And will they be pissed off!

Tokey
Tokey
October 11, 2011 3:06 pm

Blah blargle argle blah CHINA WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!! MUUUUUHHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Blah blargle argle blah Blah blargle argle blah Get off my lawn, kids!

TeresaE
TeresaE
October 11, 2011 3:07 pm

Many of us think that our government will declare (more) war(s) to cover up the gutting of our real economy.

Why wouldn’t China do the same thing.

Lookee there, solving two problems with one solution.

Our governments can just declare war on each other.

Problems solved.

and Fourth Turnings/Mayans /solar flares suck.

Persnickety
Persnickety
October 11, 2011 3:27 pm

Speaking of wars, the US is accusing Iran of plotting to kill the Saudi ambassador to the US, apparently with help from a Mexican drug cartel member who just happened to be a US informant (but I repeat myself):

http://www.detnews.com/article/20111011/NATION/110110428/Iran-tied-to-plot-to-assassinate-Saudi-diplomat-to-U.S.

Thinker
Thinker
October 11, 2011 3:37 pm

It will be interesting to see what happens in China… if you think about it, the Keynesian idea that government can control / manipulate the market in order to avoid collapse — and that deficits don’t matter — works perfectly with their system of governance. If anyone can pull it off, they should be able to.

But they won’t.

Dragline
Dragline
October 11, 2011 3:49 pm

China’s just like Orwell’s “Animal Farm”, where you started with some grand utopian vision and ended up with “All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.” And the ruling pigs sent the old horse to the glue factory.

But wait — now doesn’t that describe what we have as well? “All people are created equal, but a few big banks and multinational companies are people that are more equal than others.”

AWD
AWD
October 11, 2011 4:07 pm

A friendly reminder:

#71 The United States has had a negative trade balance every single year since 1976, and since that time the United States has run a total trade deficit of more than 7.5 trillion dollars with the rest of the world. (we’re giving our money away)

#69 The U.S. trade deficit with China is now 27 times larger than it was back in 1990. (we’re giving vast sums of OUR money to China).

#63 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000. (we gave them our manufacturing)

#62 If you can believe it, more than 42,000 manufacturing facilities in the United States have been closed down since 2001. (ibid)

#61 Between December 2000 and December 2010, 38 percent of the manufacturing jobs in Ohio were lost, 42 percent of the manufacturing jobs in North Carolina were lost and 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in Michigan were lost. (ibid)

“She amassed reserve capital of $3 trillion. She reversed America’s fortunes from the greatest creditor nation to the greatest debtor nation. She gutted America’s factories while creating the world’s largest manufacturing base in her own country.” (WW3, the economic war, won by China)

That ship has sailed, and it ain’t coming back. China has wiped out the U.S. already, regardless of what happens in China. Are we going to bring back all the manufacturing and jobs? It would take a decade just to get back what we lost, and we’ll never get the trillions we gave them via trade deficits. Our number one export to China: (#65 In 2010, the number one U.S. export to China was “scrap and trash”). It’s game over, folks.

So, China decided to follow our lead in how to destroy an empire? They’re doing a great job of pissing away all the money we gave them. They were dumb enough to follow our economic principles, too bad for them, they will, by the looks of things, implode. But the damage is done.

Btw, Japan Inc. did kick our asses, and they still are. People keep buying Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans, with no thought whatsoever. Their crony capitalists and corrupt government pissed away all the money they got from us also (just like China).

The only problem with Asian economies is nobody taught them how to consume. In fact, they are taught not to consume, so the government takes over consumption, as evidenced by stimulus and infrastructure construction and spending in both China and Japan.

Well, at least they still have our military around to protect and serve. We give them trillions for their “finished products” and we spend trillions on our military to protect them. They must love the U.S. over in Asia. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

Stucky
Stucky
October 11, 2011 4:30 pm

If the Chinese can ever count to three without cheating …. maybe then I’ll believe their numbers. Meanwhile, they can go fuck themselves.

Meet the two biggest fucking liars on the planet.
[imgcomment image[/img]

Skinny
Skinny
October 11, 2011 4:44 pm

Once again the arrogance of the elites does itself it. The Party is the best and the brightest and they will direct all the activities of the great unwashed. It didn’t work in Russia, It doesn’t work in the US and it won’t work in China. Now all that is left is for our best and brightest to launch a trade war and watch the jingoism begin. We (the Communist Party) didn’t do this to you, it was the evil Americans. I (President Obama) didn’t do this to you, it was the currency manipulating Chinese. To paraphrase Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles, “Someone’s gotta go back and get a shitload of bullets”

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 6:52 pm

I love the comparisons of today’s China to the Japan bubble of the late 1980’s.

In 1989, real estate prices in Tokyo’s financial districts ranged from $85,000 to $93,000 per SQUARE FOOT.

Japan’s property in 1989 was $20 trillion, DOUBLE the value of the entire world’s stock markets.

By 2004, prime property in Tokyo’s financial district was less than 1% of its earlier peak.

Tens of trillions of dollars were wiped out with the collapse of Tokyo stock and real estate markets.

China today does not remotely resemble the excesses of Japan in the late 1980’s. I mean, that is such a fucking nonstarter that it is laughable.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Smokey – I have been waiting for you to weigh-in here. China in no way can be compared to Japan.

I have no doubt that China will experience some lumps and bumps, and the rate of growth experienced over the last 30 years (12%/yr) will slow, but I believe that they will dominate the world economy in coming decades (do not forget India as well). As the “developed world” stagnates and self-destructs owing to the FSA/welfare state/short-term thinking, the ever-patient Chinese will continue to plod away – and plot away. The bastards are smart, they are patient, and they have long-term goals – and they are not going away.

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 7:21 pm

llpoh—-not only are they smart, patient, and have long-term goals—-they cheat.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 7:35 pm

Smokey – they cheat by western standards (boy do they ever). I doubt they even see it that way. For instance, they can look you right in the eye and lie about the age of gymnasts, or put up a swimming (women’s!) team that looks like this, that came out of nowhere, collected a bunch of medals, and then disappeared never to be seen again, all the while swearing there were no steroids involved:

[imgcomment image[/img]

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 7:41 pm

The Chinese cheat? Hell no:

[imgcomment image[/img]

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 7:51 pm

A man I know well who deals a lot with China offered this advice – he said that you must realize that any investment you make in China will be viewed, in general, as a donation. The minute they think the value of a donation is greater than the anticipated future benefits of the relationship, they will simply confiscate the donation, pitch you out on your ass, and offer not even an apology. It was a donation after all, and if you were too stupid to understand that, it was your own fault.

I have bought container loads of goods from the fuckers, and have the containers actually at the docks ready to be shipped, and find out that someone else offered one cent more per peice, so the Chinese sent my gods to them instead. That I had contracts, etc in place was neither here nor there.

They do not understand the idea of western contracts nor of investment. Buyer beware is taken to a whole new realm.

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 8:27 pm

llpoh,

Yes, they are some sleazy assholes. And I don’t doubt that China may have some areas of real estate hit the wall—all the evidence indicates that will happen, primarily in some coastal areas. I could easily see China going flat in growth for a year or two, especially when TSHTF in Europe.

I just don’t buy all this talk of some sort of collapse—“Dubai times a thousand” so said Jim Chanos. Of course, now he says it was tongue in cheek.

My take on the empty buildings, sure some of it is overcapacity, for NOW.

But China has been transitioning her peasants from the fields into the cities for the past three decades. First they build the houses, then they build the roads, sewage and other infrastructure to handle the population. The people move in last. This is an ongoing multi-year transitioning, repeated over and over. This is exactly what they have been doing for twenty years—-building the shit and then moving the population in.

There are statistics on that stuff——x % lived in rural areas 25 yrs ago—–now 3/5 x live in rural areas and the others have been moved to the cities. ETC.

Colma Rising
Colma Rising
October 11, 2011 8:49 pm

When they bow with a smile, beware… they are ripping you off.

When they bow with a smirk, proceed with caution as the deal might be fair.

When they bow with a scowl, it is because they think you’re fucking with them.

Under no circumstance should one think they hold “White Barbarian” in any esteem…

That is why they insist on putting shrimp in my chow mein when I said chicken and smile and wave when you complain. God dammit, what part of chicken don’t they understand?

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 8:52 pm

Colma – count yourself lucky. Here is a chinese chicken:

[imgcomment image[/img]

Colma Rising
Colma Rising
October 11, 2011 8:55 pm

Yeah I thought that shit tasted funny…

Add sweet sour, Lo-fan doesn’t know difference.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:16 pm

I remember Admin’s predictions – Phillies a stone cold lock, Obama invading the ragheads by the mid-term elections, etc. And I see Smokey saying that the Chinese will have some lumps coming.

But I believe that they are a force to be reckoned with, and in the next few decades will come to dominate the world economy by shear weight of numbers, combined with a great focus and legions of college grads educated in sciences/math/engineering and IT. Will a real estate bubble pop? I imagins so. Will it be more than a temporary setback? I doubt it.

[imgcomment image[/img]

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:17 pm

“imagine so”. Damn wordpress to hell.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:24 pm

Admin predicting the next US invasion of the middle-east:

[imgcomment image[/img]

And here he is predicitng when Philidelphia will actually win a World Series or Super Bowl:

[imgcomment image[/img]

Punk in Drublic
Punk in Drublic
October 11, 2011 9:30 pm

You make a good case, Admin. China’s got problems beyond their financial sector, deep social issues that will not be squashed. They are trying to combine the iron fist of communism with the invisible hand of capitalism, it won’t be easy.

That being said, you are totally off your rocker.

Didn’t they build a gazillion nuke plants? That will sure come in handy when peak oil really puts the stranglehold on growth.
Food inflation running at 14%, you say? What is it here? 12%? And they are raising interest rates? Isn’t that what we want shitstain Bernanke to do? Sounds like china is preparing for the future.

Smokey, I can just imagine… A Chinese officer enters a small hut belonging to some peasant farmer in the middle of nowhere. Then explains to the man inside that he is to move to the city of X, where he will start his new life as an advertising executive.

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 9:30 pm

llpoh,

While I blog here, I’m also watching Rebel Without A Cause, Rudy, V for Vendetta, and the republican debate.

Herman Cain just packed Ron Paul’s shit in the worst smack down yet in the debates this year. It was fucking brutal, and Cain was defending himself. Each candidate was to ask any single other candidate a question (gotcha type), and that candidate was to respond.

When it was Paul’s turn, he looked like a whiny old maid and directed his question at Cain. Cain all but called him a liar, and absolutely scorched his ass.

If Paul had even a prayer, it is history now. I laughed my ass off when blackie unloaded on him.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:33 pm

Punk delivers this to the Admin:

[imgcomment image[/img]

Glad to see you haven’t lost your touch, Punk!

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:39 pm

Admin – you really know you are on the wrong side of an argument when Punk pops up, bitch slaps you, and trots away singing Tra-la-la-a-la. :

[imgcomment image[/img]

Smokey – Ron Paul simply ain’t got the right stuff. Too bad. He seems like an honorable guy, but that will not get him the presidency. He is at best a fly in the ointment.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:51 pm

[imgcomment image[/img]

platoplubius
platoplubius
October 11, 2011 9:52 pm

But we can all agree that China will be the U.S. enemy in WWIII right?

Here goes Pakistan, the powder keg….the ticking time bomb…being labeled as a “haven for terrorists” should be very unsettling for all human beings on the planet.
comment image

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 9:53 pm

That should bring some interesting replies.

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 10:03 pm

llpoh,

I’m gonna get a copy of that poster and frame it.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:04 pm

Admin – Wanna make something of it?

[imgcomment image[/img]

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:07 pm

Admin is going to need a much bigger flyswatter than he has.

I need to save the link to that poster – it will bring hours of entertainment to readers of TBP. And the “I told you so” moment will be divine.

Petey
Petey
October 11, 2011 10:10 pm

Hey Smokey, here is how I smoke Cain’s charred ass.

Under his 9-9-9 plan anyone making $20,000 per year currently paying no taxes, will pay $1800. Under his 9-9-9 plan slap an addition 9% federal sales tax on every state and city sales tax.

How could anyone rich or poor vote for that shit? Raise taxes on the lowest bracket, that will go over well given the current mood of the country. Raise taxes on goods purchased, that will hurt rich folks.

platoplubius
platoplubius
October 11, 2011 10:12 pm

oops!!!

Epic fail on the link to the video! Try this

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:19 pm

Admin struggles with the difference between fact and opinion. I have found this chart to help him understand the difference:

[imgcomment image[/img]

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:25 pm

LLPOH refuting Admin’s position:

[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5577MCsPXQPeU59qnk-mqHap_GzsbOkXgMCm8M6BUPs6O13koawe7yTzzcQ[/img]

Punk in Drublic
Punk in Drublic
October 11, 2011 10:27 pm

Facts are a crutch. If I ever have to resort to facts it is because I am loosing.

Petey
Petey
October 11, 2011 10:27 pm

Don’t worry big dogs and admin, water boy is here when you need a break.

[imgcomment image[/img]

Punk in Drublic
Punk in Drublic
October 11, 2011 10:28 pm

opps. I mean LOSING.

Punk in Drublic
Punk in Drublic
October 11, 2011 10:28 pm

oops. I mean OOPS.

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 10:31 pm

Petey,

You don’t need to smoke Cain’s charred ass. Do you really think republican’s would put his black ass on top of the ticket ? Never happen.

But if the polls reverse, and Obama is the favorite, the republican nominee would be smart to tab Cain as the VP.

Cain is better than Perry, Paul, Santorum, Huntsman, Bachmann.

A CNN commentator said a little while ago that Newt Gingrich frames every debate. A CNN co-anchor said Gingrich WINS every debate, but his poll numbers never move.

Cain, Perry, Paul, Gingrich, Bachmann, Huntsman, Santorum—-none have a prayer.

The republican nominee will be Romney, so sorry. He’s got the nomination in the bag.

He’ll never beat Obama. If Obama is ahead in the polls next October, Obama will coast. If Obama is behind in the polls, he’ll ditch Biden and tab Hillary for VP.

Either way, Obama wins.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:32 pm

Petey – the admin will need an ambulance before he needs the water. How are you at CPR?

Petey helping the admin out:

[imgcomment image[/img]

Smokey
Smokey
October 11, 2011 10:33 pm

Punk,

When you wrote loosing, I thought you were dopple ganging Muck.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:35 pm

Smokey – I do not have a good feel for how it will all play out, but the GOP is in shit city seems to me. Obammy is most likely going to be re-elected. In the midst of perhaps a new depresion. Hooray for the American voting population.

llpoh
llpoh
October 11, 2011 10:39 pm

[imgcomment image[/img]

LLPOH’s response to Admin thinking he can win a battle of wits with LLPOH.

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