LLPOH’s Short Story: Responsibilities Employers Take for Employees

I cop a lot of flak for comments I make re employees, and the fact that I believe – in fact I know – that there is a significant number of people who, in a modern economy, are effectively unemployable. I base my comments on my experiences running businesses, both as an employee myself, and as an employer. I generally find that the people objecting to my comments are not employers, but employees, and most commonly government employees. Below, I am listing some of the responsibilities I have toward my employees, in hope of explaining why there are some people that are simply unemployable.

Responsible to pay wages:

Each week, I am responsible for meeting payroll. By payroll I mean wages and benefits. I am responsible for putting the pay in their banks, and for paying garnishments, child support, etc.
My weekly payroll is in the neighbourhood of $150,000. Failure to meet payroll is not allowed. I cannot skip a week because cash flow is a bit tight, no matter what might happen that might negatively affect my ability to meet payroll (customers not paying me on time, computer crashes, etc.). Not meeting payroll is not an option.
I am also responsible for sorting out all of the issues that occur re employees receiving their pay. Last week, come payday, I received two calls from irate wives when their husbands pay was not in their accounts. These wives were not happy. I investigated immediately – it took me away from other, money-making duties. What I found in both cases was that the families had changed their bank accounts without advising us. So their pay went into the ether. Not my fault. I then had to advise the irate wives that we did send their pay, that it was their own fault for not advising us of the changed bank accounts, and it would take a few to several days to sort out and for them to receive their pay, as we have to wait for the banks to return the money to us from the ether. Of course, I was abused and cursed, and they demanded I send their money forthwith. This I did not do. I am not a bank, and I am not responsible for their mistakes. I do have a long memory, and I do not appreciate being abused.
And there are times when employees die. This makes for ticklish situations. The bereaved families of course want their loved one’s final pay, holiday money, etc. They are in grief, and need to pay for funeral costs, etc. And I have to tell them that I cannot release the money to them until cleared to do so by the appropriate legal authority. It is heart-wrenching. Why cannot I release the money? Because I have no idea who has claim on it, and if I release the money to the wrong party, I am liable for its loss. For instance, I had a case where an employee had a wife and kids, and was not divorced. He lived with a girlfriend, with more kids by her, and they shared his account. The girlfriend wanted the money owed. The estranged wife of course wanted the money as well. If I had released the money to either of them without legal authority, I would have taken a big chance.

Responsible to be Tax Collector:

I am responsible for collecting and paying my employees taxes – federal and state, and social security, etc. I must calculate the tax, withhold the tax, and forward the tax on time to the appropriate agencies. God forbid I do this late, as the penalties are significant. And, should my employee owe the taxman money at the end of the year, I get the pleasure of being abused for failing to withhold enough.

Responsible for the Output of the Employee and for Keeping the Employee Working:

Everything I make and sell is priced, and the labor content is calculated down to the second. That is the same for a $30 product or a $3000 product. Each minute worked costs me around $1. Every minute lost costs me money – the same $1. If an employee takes a ten minute bathroom break, it costs me $10. If they arrive to start work at 7, and don’t get started until 7:10, it costs me $10. If they leave for lunch 2 minutes early, and do not start back until 2 minutes after the lunch break ends, it costs me $4. If I or my supervisors need to explain their work to them, it costs me $2 per minute – $1 for them, and $1 for the supervisor. I estimate that each worker loses the better part of an hour per day to these factors – and I have over 100 employees. Therefore the lost time costs me $6000 per day. Some of this is factored into the cost of the product. But not all. $6000 per day times 220 days per year = $1.3 million dollars lost each year for lost time. I take lost time very seriously – very seriously indeed. Employees that lose excess time are simply not tolerated. Employees that take excessive time to train, retrain, or instruct cost me money – a lot of money. I cannot afford it.

Responsible for the Continued Improvement of the Productivity of the Employee:

This is similar to the above, but somewhat different. Each employee must be able to produce more next year than this year. The target is a minimum of 2.5% improvement each year, in order to keep up with wage growth, and foreign competition. I must provide the means for each employee to produce more each year – be it equipment, training, plant layout, etc. If I cannot generate this 2.5%+ improvement each year, I will go broke. My employees must be capable of adapting to the changes that are required to achieve this improvement. If they cannot adapt, or cannot help me achieve the improvement, or take too long to train in order to achieve the improvement, I simply cannot employ them.

Responsible for the Quality of Output of Each Employee:

I am responsible for the quality of the product and of the work for each employee. Any mistakes made cost me money – in rework or scrap if the mistakes are caught in-house, or in costs associated with warranty if caught outside the plant. Each minute of rework costs me $1. Scrap costs me both material and labor. Faulty products that escape the plant cost me huge amounts – in general it costs me 10 times the sell price if a part leaves the plant faulty. A faulty $100 part costs me $1000 in warranty cost. I require that my employees be able to follow all quality procedure – written of course in order to maintain my quality accreditation – and to be able to notify me of issues as they arise. If they cannot do these things, I cannot employ them.

Responsible for the Safety of Each Employee:

I am required by law to maintain a safe workplace. There are written safety procedures that must be followed. There are written procedures with respect to handling of materials and chemicals. I pay huge sums of money insuring against workplace accidents and injury, and each claim drives these costs up. I cannot employ people that are incapable of following the procedures and of using good judgement in their work activities so as to minimize the risks associated with work. I am also responsible for any injuries that occur owing to extreme stupidity. Injuries associated with stupidity are the norm and not the exception.

Responsible for Making Sure Employees Adhere to EPA Laws:

This is self-explanatory. What is not so evident is the number of times that employees breach the laws intentionally so as to make their jobs easier (easier to dump chemicals down the drain as opposed to moving them to the designated disposal sites, etc.). Also, stupidity plays a factor – such as the time an employee failed to turn off a tap to a large chemical container, and allowed a major spill to occur. The lost chemicals were worth several thousands of dollars, but fortunately we caught the spill just before it reached the sewers.

Responsible for the Mistakes Employees Make:

Again, this is self-evident, and includes damage to equipment, erroneous or poor communication with customers and other employees, bad general decision making, etc.. What is not so self-evident is how varied the mistakes can be. Here is a good example of a mistake that cost me a lot of money, and had the potential to send me broke:

I have a system in place that ensures that customers receive invoices daily, and that allows me to track exactly that the invoices are indeed received by the customer. The reason is simple – the only reason I am in business is so that I get paid, and the business can only survive if I manage cash flow well. Both of those things depend on me invoicing my customers accurately and timely.

Two of my most senior managers took it upon themselves to change this system. They decided to implement a system that would send invoices electronically to the customers, and so save around $3000 per year in paperwork and handling costs. They implemented the system without my knowledge. The system failed – and the electronic transmissions did not occur. The managers did not follow-up to ensure that the system was working – they implemented the system, congratulated each other for a job well-done, and walked away. The invoices never reached the customers. The customers of course did not tell us they were not getting invoices – it is not in their interests to do so. The clerks involved are evaluated on how slowly they can pay out money, not on how fast.

Due to the lag-time between issuance of invoice and payment of invoice, the fact that the invoices were not received was not discovered for approximately 6 weeks. During this time, we were getting paid as usual, for invoices issued previously, and I did not know the system had changed. Then one day the money owed did not come in. I immediately asked why. At that point I discovered that they had changed the system, had failed to follow up that it was working, and that the invoices had never been issued to the customer.

I now had a $1.5 million cash flow problem. And I was not happy. The customer was very happy, of course – they hadn’t been invoiced for 6 weeks. A $1.5 million cash flow problem was created because two senior people had made a very bad mistake in order to save $3000. It is a mistake they will not repeat here.

The business survived, I met payroll every week, despite this enormous hole in cash flow, etc., but it was not a good situation.

The long and the short of it is, I cannot tolerate many mistakes from employees. They cost me money and would send me broke.

There are many more responsibilities I take by employing people, but will not go further with the list. What I hope becomes evident when going through the above is that I must have competent employees in order to stay in business. They must be able to work independently; they must be able to read and understand complex procedures; they must be able to determine risk and avoid it; they must have a good work ethic; they must be able to independently come up with ideas to improve productivity and must be receptive to change; they must be able to focus on detail; they must make few mistakes; they must run their daily lives well in order to not overly burden me with garnishments, child-support payments, failure to report bank account changes, etc.; in short, they must be intelligent people that help me make money.

I am not alone in this – every employer trying to make money needs employees with the same attributes. But the fact is, a significant percentage of potential workers do not have these attributes – they cannot read well or understand complex written instruction, they require too much supervision, they are unable to predict the outcome of their actions, they have uneven personal lives, they waste time, etc. I simply cannot employ these people and make a profit by so doing, and to employ them brings too much risk to my business re safety, EPA. Very few profit seeking employers can employ them. I have classified this group of functionally unemployable as those with IQs below 85 – that is of course arbitrary, and overly generalized. However, the fact is, using the IQ scale; it is from that group that the highest percentage of unemployable will be found. I simply cannot fully organize my business around people that cannot read, act independently, and reason.

I do not think I am being harsh – I am being realistic. Laws and the competitive environment make me responsible for my employees on a great many levels, and there are many risks with employing people. I must minimize the risks if I am to keep my company solvent. The belief that all people have a right to employment and a reasonable standard of living is noble, but it is unrealistic and unachievable.

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SSS
SSS
September 11, 2012 5:14 pm

My first act as LLPOH’s marketing manager. Does anyone notice that she’s wearing sunglasses?

[imgcomment image[/img]

Stucky
Stucky
September 11, 2012 5:49 pm

llpoh

I’ve thinking about what that boss said to me … it was so long ago. Only two things came to mind, even though there were more.

His “hot button” was loyalty. To him, an employee leaving was a slap in the face. He simply couldn’t tolerate that. He did have an enormous ego, if I recall.

The other thing he said was that he could never truly know why an employee left. Money is very often the stated reason, but what if it’s not? What if the person doesn’t like his management style? What if the person doesn’t like the rules? What if the person is too needy and isn’t coddled enough? That kind of thing. He felt when these kind of employees come back, that they don’t change their spots and will only infect other employees.

Without agreeing or disagreeing, I think his point was worth consideration.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Teresa – I thank you. I cannot understand coddling the young. Or old. I hope we do survive. I always look for your posts as you know your stuff.

Stuck -I have posted before that I do not expect loyalty as it is a business relationship. People come and go for their own reasons. If they want to come back, I assume that it is because they prefer my business to others. I am not a deep thinker and do not have that kind of ego issue, as I am not offended at all if someone leaves, and only see cost benefit should they want to return. If they are good workers, it suits me. Wasn’t suggesting your points were not worth consideration, only that I think it better to do it my way. Tried and tested.

Don’t I look fine in the pic above with Salma? And do not say you did not notice.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 8:45 pm

“I am not a deep thinker and do not have that kind of ego issue, as I am not offended at all if someone leaves, and only see cost benefit should they want to return.” – Double L, o… peeinh’

This is the gist of my beef with you.

You come across as the ultimate bean counter. Where is the spirit?

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 9:00 pm

Hey Admin,

How about an open thread for the monkeys to talk about their most effective moments in life. I mean the ones that you just about burst with pride remembering.

Yeah, that’s it, crazyivan wants to sing kum by yah!

Sorry LLPOH.

Stucky
Stucky
September 11, 2012 9:03 pm

llpoh

Oh, I noticed the nice titties.

I also noticed the bony neck, bony shoulders, and do you see it??? ….. the ribs under her boobies? Jeezus … tits-on-a-stick ain’t my preference.

I like a little meat on dem there bones. (This is a cue for you or AWD to post some really really fat chick. Remember … no nipples!!)

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 9:13 pm

Crazy Ivan – the spirit is in the fact that I do it at all. As I said, it is a noble cause. The spirit is in the fact that I do everything possible to find a productive job for someone that will work hard and try, despite whatever limitations they might have otherwise. And I mean that – I have folks working for me that really should not be employable, but I respect the fact they want to work, will come to work, and deserve a chance, and so I try to organize something for them. Where it becomes an impossible issue is when there is a downturn – it is then really hard to keep those folks on. And I hate those decisions. And I have mentioned above that I do not allow people to screw with my employees – they are here to do a job and are deserving of respect for that.

Business, in the end, is all about staying solvent. In the end, a business owner must be dispassionate, and must take decisions to protect the interest of the business. Spirit is for when things are going well.

I do not ask for loyalty, but only that the business relationship be upheld. I hope I offer them respect, as I honor all workers that put in an effort. I do not even require or request their respect in return. It is a business relationship, and I try to act honestly and forthrightly. It is the best I can do. Up to them how they feel about me.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 10:07 pm

LLPOH,
Talking to you is like talking to a wall. A very mouthy wall.

When did the spirit of a company go out the window in tougher times?

When did it actually become a meaningful excercise to calculate the cost in dollars for an employee to take a shit.

Where is your spirit of leadership you so claim. Your’re more like the old bitch with all the money that runs the factory.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 10:10 pm

“Spirit is for when things are going well.”

Really?

No, seriously…..really??

Stucky
Stucky
September 11, 2012 10:18 pm

crazyivan

WHY are you so obsessed with how llpoh runs HIS factory? Why do you care about his motivations? He’s the Big Dog .. a Lead Dog, and you simply can’t get your nose out of his ass.

You Newbies … that’s what you are … don’t know jack shit about the fine art of flaming. You do it out of context. You do it without humor. You do it without a shred of originality.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 10:27 pm

OK Ivan, now I have enough to respond to you properly. You are too stupid to understand how a business works, and why it exists. It exists for making money for the owners, and nothing else. What the fuck is the spirit of the company? It doesn’t fucking exist. I have a spirit of charity that I try to use when possible. In tough times I cannot be charitable, or the company goes broke. So, yes, to clarify the spirit of charity I try to maintain is not possible to exhibit in tough times.

Dickheads like you are really good at telling me what I should do with MY fucking money. Use your own fucking money and start a business, and pay your fucking employees anyway you want. My company should have a “spirit”? Are you really that fucking stupid? Seriously?

In good times, I perhaps 10% of my employees are kept on because of my personal spirit – they don’t make me money, but I do it anyway. I could replace those 10 with perhaps 6, and save my company perhaps $200k per year. That is a public service I provide, you ignorant asshole.

How much money do you donate yo charity each year? And I should do this during a downturn, so that I can make sure I go broke?

It is disgusting that you know so little. Don’t you have a fucking SNAP card to collect or something. The whole idea that I OWE my fucking employees anything other than repsect and a paycheck each week is left-wing nutjob bullshit. Spirit my rosy red- ass. My spirit is just fucking fine, and I do not need your fuckig advice or comments on it.

As I said – just what the fuck do you do for society? Come on, big boy – answer up. How many jobs do you provide? How many folks that cannot get work do you employ? How many young people do you find work for over summer, as a public service? How many athletic teams and charities do you sponsor? How much tax do you pay?

You are a fucking ignoramus.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 10:33 pm

Stucky,

It’s quite simple. If the lead dog has a nose up his ass he will keep running hard.

Besides, llpoh’s ass smells so good because he has a dollar bill protruding from it.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 10:33 pm

Stuck – thanks for the support. That CI is seriously stupid. It sure is easy telling folks what they should do with their money. He has no idea whatsoever what I do for the community and for individuals. I do not do it for thanks or for accolades or for respect or for loyalty – I do it because it is the right thing to do. Nothing more and nothing less.

I am waiting with bated breath for a list of all the good things he does for his community.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 10:35 pm

Crazy Ivan – too stupid to run a business but sure knows how to envy those that can. He is just a Free Shit Army drone.

ThePessimisticChemist
ThePessimisticChemist
September 11, 2012 10:37 pm

My wife has received 5 promotions in 5 years, the last 3 years she received multiple job offers simultaneously.

I got headhunted almost a full semester before I graduated, and while the job hasn’t turned out to be that great, I already have a few prospects who are intensely interested in me.

I don’t know how unemployment is so damned high. Almost everyone in my family is having jobs THROWN at them.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 10:43 pm

TPC – it is easy – good employees are damn hard to find. If folks think or know you are a good employee, you will find work and get offers. Good for you and your family.

But bad employees are easy to find. And employers do not want them and cannot make money on them – the bad employees want to be paid as well as good employees, and for the company to have a “spirit”. Employers are not interested in those folks. And they far outnumber the good employees. Take a look at the Chicago teachers strike for proof positive.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 10:55 pm

Come on, big boy – answer up. How many jobs do you provide? How many folks that cannot get work do you employ.

Well mostly just one LLPOH. That being me. Been that way most of my adult life. Single seat cropdusting business for twenty-one years. Always hired a loader and usually succeded in keeping him or her around for the entire season. Now I are an organic wheat farmer. I do it that way for the return. It is a small farm. I have no debt and am staying above water. I buy workers comp ins on anyone that helps me, and I pay everone that helps me.

To tell the truth, your posts seem to bring out the worst in me.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 11:03 pm

So Crazy Ivan doesn’t do shit for anyone but himself – now there is a fucking surprise. But he takes it upon himself to tell others just what they should be doing, and that their businesses should have spirit and do more for their employees.

Wow – poor loader gets fired at the end of the season. Where is the spirit in that? I guess the spirit only hits him during the season.

What – no charity? Don’t hire any students? Donate to the community?

But he does seem to pay what he is required. As though that is some big deal – that is what he is supposed to do. His legal obligation.

But he sure can talk a good game about what other folks should do.

Leobeer
Leobeer
September 11, 2012 11:12 pm

Crazy Ivan, Llpoh put his story out there in depth. Easy for you to criticize. Now why don’t you tell us your story? Have you run a successful business? Have you ever held a job for a long period of time? Tell us about your work/business history…. I am betting you are a bus driver.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 11:13 pm

So what happened to the noble professions of manufacturing,mining and farming?

Seems like I have slipped a little

Gosh, maybe I should go buy some land so I can put all those needy (yet incompetant) people to work.

Again, I say, you disgust me.

Not to mention that I just kicked your ass.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 11:17 pm

Leobeer – he is a bus driver with wings, it seems. He manages to take care of himself, so that is something. But he thinks he knows what it takes to run a business, and what people should do with their money. He has no idea. Talk is cheap.

Stucky – are you gonna call the winner, or what?

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 11:24 pm

Fuck Stuckey,

There- made it easy for you, asswipe

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 11:31 pm

Crazy Ivan, with his IQ of 14, claims victory:

[imgcomment image[/img]

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 11:38 pm

That kid is a winner llpoh.

See the look on his face.

To him IQ tests and bank account balances mean nothing.

That is the spirit you lack. Not your company’s spirit- your spirit.

llpoh
llpoh
September 11, 2012 11:43 pm

CI and a typical landing:

[imgcomment image[/img]

Like I said Crazy Ivan – just what is it you contribute to society? So far, the sound of crickets. You take care of yourself. Better than many, but not exactly a pillar of light, now are you. But you sure have a lot to say about me – and my lack of spirit. Too bad you haven’t accomplished anything personally, or else you might have been in a better position to help others, rather than make judgement about how others should do more. Bitter much?

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 11, 2012 11:54 pm

Yeah, dropped a doobie down into the never-neverland of the belly on that one. Surprises me that you and SSS colluded so quickly to dredge that dreadful photo from the NTSB files.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 12, 2012 12:04 am

Ivan – you are just a hypocrit. When it is your money, you let your loader go rather than keep him on. When it other folks money, you are full of advice. I am done with you.

Stucky
Stucky
September 12, 2012 12:13 am

llpoh

My Power to Judge is a gift that I use sparingly. I mean, did every Joo in Israel bring their problems to King Solomon? Noooo. He only judged tough problems … like whether or not to saw a child in half.

You vs. crazyivan is not worthy of my Wisdom. The answer is so obvious even a caveman could do it. You know who won. I know who won. Everybody here knows who won. Even InsaneIvan knows who won …. deep down in his selfish pesticide stained heart,

BTW, congrats!

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 12, 2012 12:35 am

Thanks Judge for the verdict.

So we’re talking about no jail time- right?

Stucky
Stucky
September 12, 2012 12:46 am

No jail time, ivan. Your utter defeat at the hands of The Master Big Dog, your humilation in front of thousands of readers, and the disgrace of massive thumbs down …. these are punishment enough.

llpoh is deep down a kind and merciful Overlord. I am sure if you offered some basic sign of contrition — like, “Hey llpoh, let’s let bygones be bygones”, then you would find grace in his heart. He might even hire you to crop dust his gigantic estate.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 12, 2012 1:13 am

Hey LLPOH,

I will from here on out, try to interpret your comments as valid thoughts.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 12, 2012 1:23 am

CI – good enough. As i said, you are doing fine, debt free, etc. I have no problem with that- quite the contrary. Farming is good stuff. But i do not think you know enough about me to say I am disgusting. I can walk away at any time, but choose to stay. Little of it has to do with money. I feel a responsibility, and so i hang in there. Hope you do the same.

SSS
SSS
September 12, 2012 1:38 am

“Surprises me that you and SSS colluded so quickly to dredge that dreadful photo from the NTSB files.”
—-crazyivan, commenting on LLPOH’s photo of a crashed aircraft (comment: NTSB is the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency which investigates aircraft accidents)

Hey, how did I get dragged into this shitstorm?

Since he claimed that LLPOH’s photo of a clearly survivable crashed aircraft was “dreadful,” I question Ivan’s claim that he was a pilot. Why? Every self-respecting pilot who has a sense of humor knows about the old aviation adage.

“Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing.”

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 12, 2012 2:03 am

The dreadful part was dropping rhe joint SSS.

Please read for comprehetion..

Fuck, you spooks are all alike

SSS
SSS
September 12, 2012 2:15 am

crazyivan

You’re incoherent and an extremely poor speller or editor of your own writing. Rhe? Comprehetion? C’mon, man. You wrote three short sentences and still fucked it up.

Novista
Novista
September 12, 2012 2:17 am

In my mind, I can hear Strother Martin …

So you couldn’t reach the spirit of mistakes, LLPOH, but your message was a great service to many.

crazyivan
crazyivan
September 12, 2012 2:31 am

SSS…

You’re incoherent and an extremely poor speller or editor of your own writing. Rhe?

What?

You guys are making me look good

Zarathustra
Zarathustra
September 12, 2012 3:22 am

No TBP thread in history has been in more dire need of a blowjob.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 12, 2012 3:53 am

Novista – nive reference!

CI now goes up against SSS. Gotta hand it to him, he has balls. Sense? You decide.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
September 12, 2012 5:40 am

CI, You might want to seal up that cockpit a little better or wear gloves when handling those pesticides. You appear to be winning this debate in the same way that Charlie Sheen imagined he was winning!
I_S

Stucky
Stucky
September 12, 2012 1:14 pm

llpoh

This thread may have fallen off by this evening. So, hoping you see it. Also hoping you provide even a brief answer to my question.

Have you noticed a difference in quality of worker based on age? Let’s those under 35, and those over.

I noticed in my own life when I was a younger worker that I pretty much always worked harder and smarter than the older folks. I had something to prove. I wanted to advance. I wanted more money. The older folks just seemed to be content with where they were at. Plus, I was raised by work-is-good Germanic principles.

Just curious if things are still like that in your opinion. Or, maybe, if it’s totally irrelevant in today’s marketplace.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 12, 2012 4:50 pm

Stuck – the older guys are almost always better than the younger. Plus they have had a chance to learn from their mistakes.

It isnt even a close call. Very rarely do I encounter someone under say 28 or 30 that I can employ, especially among men. Women are much more reliable, except for neding to care for sick kids, etc.

Stucky
Stucky
September 12, 2012 4:53 pm

thanks.

llpoh
llpoh
September 12, 2012 8:30 pm

Yesterday, I met with a guy who has invented and patented a gizmo which I will not name, trying to help him out as he is going broke and is about to lose everything. I actually bought one of these gizmos a couple years ago for myself, as they are great products. The inventor has spent 4 years of his life – and several hundred thousands of dollars of other people’s money (investors) trying to get the product off the ground and up and running. The problem is he cannot sell any – they are really designed to be mass-marketed, and he is producing them one at a time.

The product works great, looks great, and is great in every way. But he sells them for $2000 and they need to be $400. And they can be produced for that amount in bulk – if the product is re-designed from the ground up to take cost out and to make them mass-producible. That would cost, in my opinion, around $1 million or so. Which I told him.

I pointed out areas where he is hand forming metal, and hand drilling and hand welding, and explained how it would be done in mass-manufacturing, and explained the cost of the set-up. I re-engineered a couple of operations on the spot to take perhaps $100 out of the product.

I told him he has 3 options – 1) build the product like an artisan, building 1 at a time, simultaneously taking as much cost out of the product as he can, or 2) find investors and come up with the $1 million, which I think is unlikely, as he has as yet failed to prove the market (I wouldn’t invest in it, even tho it is a great product), or 3) sell the patent or some portion of the patent to one of the big players in the industry. This too I told him was unlikely, as a) he hadn’t threatened their market dominance, and so I doubt they would be interested, and b) when he goes broke they can get it for a song.

This poor bastard is about to lose everything – his house, his business, such as it is, and his personal life is in tatters. He has a cot he sleeps on at his little run-down factory. He is so proud of his product and how he has overcome the myriad issues with developing a product. He simply does not understand anything about manufacturing, especially manufacturing in scale, and he has run into the single biggest issue any starting business runs into – cashflow. He, and his investors, dramatically underestimated the cost of starting up the business. They allowed, more or less, enough money for the intro design and for proving the design. They allowed nothing for the cost of converting the design into a mass-producible product, for marketing, for tooling, etc. They are $1 to $2 million short, when all is said and done. And even then there is no guarantee, as their idea is likely to be copiable, even with patents in place, as someone will be able to tweak the idea sufficiently to end-run the patent.

Damn, starting up a business is near impossible. These folks have great ideas, but they do not know what they do not know – production, marketing, costing, etc. are all required skills. This fellow had one good idea, but none of the other skills, and certainly not enough capital.

Perhaps the biggest shame in all of this is that I looked at this a couple of years ago, and advised him much the same as I did now. It is hard to say the thing I said to him – you are in deep trouble, champ. Had he listened 2 years ago, he would have saved his home. He would have saved his investors a couple hundred thousand dollars. What he did not know he did not know is finishing him.

Admin – thanks for keeping the thread out of the Valley of Doom! I hope we can generate a few more comments by shift the thread to other areas!

Stucky
Stucky
September 12, 2012 9:02 pm

Damn interesting story. Your friend sounds like he had two major problems; 1) he didn’t think everything through, 2) he didn’t listen to someone who did (you). Sad story.

I know you won’t/can’t, but I so wish I knew what the invention is. I’m trying to guess. I know two things; 1) you like it and use it, and 2) you’re a cheap bastard.

Therefore …. I think this may be it.
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llpoh
llpoh
September 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Stuck – not really a friend, or I would long ago have put a lot of pressure on him to think about what he was doing. I wish I could help him but the fact is, if he cannot sell the patent he is really screwed.

I already have one of those things in my bathroom. I load it with 80 grit sandpaper. I have delicate skin, you know.

AWD
AWD
September 12, 2012 9:16 pm

I invented an ear cleaning device, ingenious really, and got help from a designer with contacts in China. It was progressing nicely, and would have made a fortune. The seals on the device could never be finalized, as the main ingredient in the ear cleaning solution was tea tree oil. And, the canisters had to be glass, which wouldn’t work. I had patents ready to go, manufacturing ready to go, marketing ready to go, the works. The whole thing snagged, and instead of finishing, my wife ran off with a coal miner, and I was ruined. Great ideas are just that, ideas. Getting a product to market is an entirely different animal. I learned a great deal, however, and I’m working on another can’t miss product, this time for hair loss. The uncertain times ahead are strong headwinds for any entrepreneur, especially a doomer.

Administrator
Administrator
  AWD
September 12, 2012 9:23 pm

AWD

Will your product work on guys who’ve already lost their hair? Just curious.

FTL
FTL
September 12, 2012 9:19 pm

Lloph – Option 4.) China – There are a number of outfits in China with reps in the US that will design, develop, manufacture, test, package, and ship a product to the US for very minimal upfront cost & short turnaround time. Once the design is finalized a minimum number of units to be purchased would be required. If it is a great product market it on TV QVC etc.

Stucky
Stucky
September 12, 2012 9:21 pm

The problems of geting ideas to market are legion.

A well known chart, but true.
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llpoh
llpoh
September 12, 2012 9:30 pm

FTL – I mentioned that to him and his investors. That is part of my $1 million estimate. Minimal cost is relative.

This gizmo has a lot of parts, and would require not just metal forming parts, but injection molded parts, cast metal parts, etc., to be made at an economically viable sell price. And those types of tooling are not cheap, no matter where they are built. Further, there would be substantial cost in the re-design of the product – keeping the general form and function of the design, but redesigning it to reflect the need to manufacture it economically. That process would be very expensive indeed.

And short turn-around time is also relative – the minimum time line for this in my educated and long-time experience would be a minimum of 18 months, if they have the money as of today. The devlopment time would be as long as the tool creation time – you would absolutely need to make hand prototypes of the design before you could sign off on the tooling, etc.

And re the order quantity – it is even in best case a fairly expensive product, and to mass produce it would require an up-front investment of perhaps several hundred thousand dollars, in the form of inventory carry.

And yes, then there is the marketing cost – TV and such is what they need, and it is brutally expensive, especially if there is no guarantee of return on investment.

And all of this is compounded by the fact that they do not have any money. One investor has dropped a couple hundred thousand, which he doesn’t have to spare as he is nearing retirement. He is none too happy. Damn, I wish they would have asked me.