Short of obtaining a Tracking Point rifle system I do not know if I will ever be able to develop the skill to reach out 1000 yards consistently but I am working on becoming proficient in the 700 yard range.
Much of the advise is great in Brandon Smith’s article, pick the right caliber, get quality components, consider reloading your own and be willing to drop some loot on high quality glass (the part I am comtemplating at the moment).
Many of the scopes listed in the article do make good offerings but they aren’t really top notch enough for 1000 yard shots; when making adjustments they will not move in a straight line. I have fired many rifles using Millet scopes and they are of good quality in medium range but I recently used a friend’s that had a Bushnell XRS Elite which moved and adjusted as if it was made by a Swiss watchmaker and was incredibly clear even at 30X’s magnification. Scopes are very similar to camera lens, pretty good ones can be had for $500 or less but admission to freakin’ sweet really can’t be had for less than $1500 (and I am not willing to drop $1600 on a scope like the one my buddy got his hands on).
Personally I enjoy reloading and it is expensive to get started but once you get going it can save a lot of money. I reload everything, 556, 308, 300AAC, 45ACP; in itself it is a valuable skill. Just like most things precision shooting can become an expensive hobby, especially if one insists on high end quality but the most important thing to get a combination you will use, can keep in good working order, and practice/hone the skill with.
Because it is a skill that will be valuable if/when the sh!t hits the fan.
Sniper Basics For The SHTF Survivalist
God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best – Voltaire
For a long time sniper tactics have been considered by many, even in the military, to be akin to a kind of state designated “murder” rather than a legitimate combat strategy. Only in recent years has sniping achieved a certain level of recognition. Centuries of warfare have passed in which snipers were happily recruited for their skills, and then quickly swept under the rug and forgotten once conflict was over. Daniel Morgan and his crack-shot riflemen were instrumental in America’s revolutionary victory over the British. U.S. sharpshooters rained hell down on German troops from over 900 yards during WWI. Snipers have dominated the battlefield in every modern conflagration. Yet, regimented sniping schools were not standardized in the U.S. Army until 1987. All previous schools were abandoned within a few years of their establishment.
Why did it take so long for the sniper to be recognized as essential to victory? Perhaps because snipers are TOO effective, to the point that they become frightening to the establishment.
During the Finnish “Winter War” against the Soviet Union in which they were vastly outnumbered and outgunned, guerrilla tactics, which they called “Motti tactics”, were used to excellent effect. The Finnish devastated the Soviets using hit and run attacks, homemade and improvised weapons, and snipers. The most famous of these snipers was Simo Hayha.
Read the remainder of the article HERE.
Thanks, TPC. We’ve got 50+ acres of wooded, glacial ravines on our Indiana farm, and I spent my entire childhood out there learning how to find my way around without any form of navigation. Used to play “Indians” as kids… sneaking up on one another and wildlife without making a sound or cracking a stick. And it goes without saying that you leave the forest as undisturbed as you found it.
I guess I’d call all that fieldcraft… learning to get by in the wild, basic survival techniques. I see woodcraft as melting into the background, not being seen, taking cover for hours if need be. That’s what I want to learn more of. Sounds like we have a lot of experienced guys here, so hoping I can learn some more.
harry p.
“it literally could make someone who can’t hit the broad side of the barn at 200 yards be able to dissect watermelon sized targets from 1000 yards.”
I’ll believe that when I see it… take some non-shooting douche, stick him under that rifle and then watch him deck a bunch of grapefruit at 1000m…. it takes more than just some shit-hot cyborg rifle to make someone a competent predator…
I remember reading about that cyborg rifle last year. If I remember right, it has some connectivity, right? Heh, heh, heh… means if you have some ninja hacking skills, you can really mess with that scope, right? Veddy interesting…..
Ottomatik – almost no situations in combat with 1000 yard line of sight. Even fewer when there is a stationary target. And no one hits a moving target at 1000 meters. Fact is, even tho you are right and you are in deep poo, most likely scenario is sub-200 yard open sight scenario. That is why there are very few snipers – it is specialist work, and is suited only for very specific situations. In the US that probably means the desert and very few other places.
Another interesting factoid is in combat almost no riflemen actually shoot at the enemy. In WW2 I think it was one in seven. So the folks actually targetting and firing do have some advantage. That does not apply to pros like Billy, but in general folks just pointed the weapon in the air and fired off a few rounds.
It is a terrific skill to have and I congratulate those that can do it. Far beyond anything I ever attained. But it has limited application in zombieworld.
I am gonna post “keys to making 10 yard shots”.
1 – get out shotgun
2 – point to within approx 50 MOA
3 – pull trigger
I need to add some filler, but that is the rough draft. What do you think so far?
“Was..” — T4C
Stopped reading right there. Wasn’t interested in any fucking thing you had to say.
You have no purpose on this thread. Even your efforts at shit stirring are pathetic. Our subject matter is so far outside and above your skill set, we might as well be talking about teleportation, cold fusion or String Theory. Your casual treatment and dismissal of the subject matter illustrates your failure better than I ever could.
Get lost. Go back to being a breeder and a follower, relying on others for your safety.
Llpoh
Here in the Bluegrass, our farm is situated on top of a ridge. The hills roll away in pretty much all directions. It’s open fields mixed in with large stands of trees and even some forest.
I’ve often thought about our situation here. Close in, you can nail everything out to about 150 – 200 meters, but then the land is in defilade past that (going downhill). It picks back up again as the land rises away from you, usually around 450-500 and you have clear fields of fire to the top of the next ridge, which is (I’m guesstimating here) between 750-900 meters away… sometimes farther. I’d have to get out a reflective panel and a good laser rangefinder to accurately range the tops of the ridges around here, but they’re pretty far off..
Thing is, IF bad things happen, if we can see the next ridgeline over, then we can hit it… and stuff anyone who happens to be there. Because if they make it close enough, they have hundreds of meters of dead ground we can’t see from here and once they’re in the envelope of safety, they can go anywhere and do anything… if they only walk in a straight line, they pop up poo throwing close… and that’s bad.
Man, I wish I could post some pictures here from my laptop… you’d see what the terrain is like, and it does lend itself to longer ranged shots (beyond 500 meters). They’re either WAY OVER THERE, or they’re poo-flinging close… and that’s bad.
Once you get in the thick shit, depending on time of year, you’re limited to maybe 30 meters in any direction (summer). In fall, you can make out things moving farther out, but there’s so much shit in the way it’s useless to shoot at it…
Watch this video about making the 1000 yard shot, it is inspiring. Your welcome.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MQRpAxGVg4M%3Frel%3D0
Billy, out of curiosity, are you in the vicinity of Louisville KY? The countryside you describe is reminiscent of that area. Furthermore, I have work coming up in Leitchfield.
“…are you in the vicinity of Louisville KY? The countryside you describe is reminiscent of that area.” — Zara
No. We’re closer to Lexington than Louisville (thank God), but Lexington is still about an hour from here. Louisville is an hour and a half away, easy…
This area used to be the foothills of the Appalachia Mountain Range way back when, when they looked more like the Alps. These hills have been worn down to rolling drumlins, called the Piedmont, and it’s like this in Central/south central Kentucky all the way to the mountains proper, which are about an hour and a half East of here as the crow flies….
“The shooters tested their skills at the relatively close distance of 75 meters and at 150 meters, determined to be the farthest distance at which a marksman could reliably hit a moving target.”
Billy – you have little or no chance of hitting those zombies if the storm over the ridge and run/walk/skip down the hill. I do not know if it is treed or not, which would vastly compound the difficulty. Fact is, it is near impossible to hit a moving target at much more than a couple hundred yards, especially if they move constantly and a bit erratically. And that assumes they come in the daytime with the sun in their eyes. Even zombies may be smarter than that.
If they stop on the ridge, or on the downslope and you are totally aware of distances, have spotter, etc., then you are in with a good chance. Otherwise they are going to reach the near ground of 200 yards on in. Where the ability to shoot open sighted is going to be very valuable indeed.
Of course, you are likely to be much better than the average marine. But you will have extreme difficulty hitting a moving target several hundred yards out.
Most of you missed the point of my first post .You are not going to be shooting 1000 yards shots in a SHTF situation.Most will under 200 yards and the targets will be moving .Have any of you tried to hit a moving target ?Also people will be shooting back at you and it probably will be at night.Go to a range and give it a try .It is hard hitting a moving target at a 100 yards .
Go to you tube and look up civil war in Syria ,combat footage:sniper head shots.You will see most of the targets are less than 200 yards .Warning very hard to watch.
I think my best investment would be in some good body armor like bullet proof vest.Any suggestions.
I’m staying out of this post, except with this information, better heed it well folks…..
National Guard trains to fight 2nd Amendment supporters…
Ohio National Guard Training Envisions Right-Wing Terrorism
Documents from an Ohio National Guard (ONG) training drill conducted last January reveal the details of a mock disaster where Second Amendment supporters with “anti-government” opinions were portrayed as domestic terrorists.
The ONG 52nd Civil Support Team training scenario involved a plot from local school district employees to use biological weapons in order to advance their beliefs about “protecting Gun Rights and Second Amendment rights.”
Portsmouth Fire Chief Bill Raison told NBC 3 WSAZ-TV in Huntington, West Virginia that the drill accurately represented “the reality of the world we live in,” adding that such training “helps us all be prepared.”
read the rest here:
http://mediatrackers.org/ohio/2014/02/10/ohio-national-guard-training-envisions-right-wing-terrorism
In a war or SHTF situation most of the people causing you problems will be close to you and they will be armed.You will not have the luxury of laying in a field waiting to take shots at people and when they do come for you they will be in mass or more then one.What are you going to do then with your sniper rifle?Better to have M1a
With 20 rounds of 308 power backing you up.Am I right ?
Looks like it’s going to be a civil war—the Feds against the “terrorists” that support the constitution
T4C ,this is a post where real men are discussing real man subjects.If you want in you have got to show me nude pictures.of yourself.I know it’s against the rules but I am sure admin would make one exception just for you and me.
Lloph
I agree with all of your points, as they pertain to modern US military doctrine, find….pin…..destroy….mop up. Hence our military’s retreat from 30-06 and 308 and adoption of 223, flat shooting, high volume, short range. The scenarios you list are the very likely ones for a trooper to encounter and your analysis is spot on, hence the typical training regimine they experience. But….they have radios, more GI’s, air support, armor….on the way. If you dont have a radio, these tactics are irrelevant. Instead you need to embrace movement and Balistic Advantage. See Afganistan. Here is a definitive report for any interested:
Search Results
[PDF]
Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer – Defense Technical …
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA512331
If you find yourself within a 1/2 klick of an adversary you should be moving, or your fuct. If you have to hold up in a fixed position, yeah body armor and a shotgun are going to make for a glorious last stand. But you will undoubtedly succumb to either a, a numerically superior force that will find,pin, destroy, you or b, some one will set up on you with a balistic advantage and wait without fear for a mistake or an opportunity. Additionally plenty of long range shots have been made in every conflict the US has ever been in, including the black powder days. Its only a matter of opportunity and patience, oh and good dose of making the other guy die for his country, beliefs, hunger, greed, ect. If your of a defensive mind set some time at the range with an appropriate rifle couldent hurt, even at closer ranges. There are millions of bolt actions in America, and the latest rage is the AR platform, in the zombie appocalypse, my money is on the bolt actions and the thinkers, not the spray and pray crowd.
T4c ,just has no sense of humor today .Billy b bob from Kentucky hurt your feelings.?
AWD, only a small percentage of those who say they support the constitution actually do. That said, the best part of the liberty movement don’t support the constitution either but see it as a failure, a theft of the revolution by the elite and a pathway to the death of individual and state sovereignty (which of course is exactly what happened).
Real patriots (god how I hate that term), support the Articles of Confederation, although a goodly number of them even abandon that and progress to anarchism. For myself, I’d be happy with either.
Otto – thanks. Movement is the name of the game, I am sure. I am talking, I suppose, about folks being prepared for civil unrest. In other words, defending against the Free Shit Army when their free shit gets cut off, and they start running around looting, raping, killing.
Folks will then try to defend what is theirs. Shotguns, open sights, etc.m will come to the fore in that scenario.
I suspect the zombies will tend not to be fine examples of bravery under fire. I have seen a number of vids where the yutes come under fire. None stood their ground. All ran away, at best firing blindly over their shoulders.
If a person can actually shoot open sighted, and has the balls or training to acquire targets, I suspect they will be in pretty good shape by and large. Hell, cops, who have a fair bit of training, are no better than a fifty fifty chance of hitting their target at point blank range – by that I mean less than three feet. At ten or twenty feet, if you boogie, odds are they will never hit you. And those pricks are trained, at least somewhat.
But movement is life, so I have heard.
Otto – great point re spray and pray.
Check out what Sgt York pulled off – makes for some interesting reading. He was calm under fire, and was a one man wrecking ball as a result.
“Billy – you have little or no chance of hitting those zombies if the storm over the ridge and run/walk/skip down the hill. I do not know if it is treed or not, which would vastly compound the difficulty. Fact is, it is near impossible to hit.. etc.. ” — Llpoh
I had this big involved reply all set, then read it, then deleted it.
Hitting a moving target at distance isn’t impossible. Difficult? Yep. But not impossible. We trained on moving targets on this big, motorized washline lookin’ thing. Kind of embarrassing when they would stop the target just as you touched a round off and it would wiff right by… oops…
Thing is, I seriously doubt any zombie swarms will make it this far…. the countryside is crisscrossed with barbed wire fences and touchy rednecks… but they might.
Which is why I’m following the advice in the book A Failure Of Civility (and Selco) in that nobody is an island and this Lone Wolf Strong Man vs The World stuff is a load of hooey… you got to team up with your neighbors, figure out what the zombies are going to do and then what you are going to do in preparation… if it comes to it, the guy across the street from me subcontracts with the county. He’s got earth moving equipment. Backhoes and dozers and shit like that.
With that, some manpower and a little imagination, we can make our little area here look pretty damn uninviting… I seriously doubt any zombie swarms will be running or skipping anywhere around here if we got our shit together first… vehicle traps, punji sticks, tanglefoot, caltrops, spike tubes, barbed and razor wire, Cheval de Frise, Abatis, spike strips… and then there’s this nasty little fucker I’ve always wanted to try out… the Romans invented it. Don’t remember the name, but it looks like a straightened out fish hook, and it’s about 6 inches long, made of forged steel. You stick them in the ground, preferably in high grass, barbed points up… nasty shit.
When you stop to think that FSA zombies will, like water, follow the path of least resistance, you can funnel them in certain directions… and be waiting for them…
Lloph
Yes, GLORIOUS!!!! Countless others as well, Hawkins at Tarawa, and all the rest, from the start. Not for me, though. Better to see it comin from far off and be a good shot, ha ha im a pussy!!! No offence to pussy’s. Jeff Coopers, Art of the Rifle, is high on the list for the skill set. I totally agree with your Hogleg analysis, its all a matter of terrain. Most people by far live in an increasingly Urban environment, a terrain favoring short range and fast reaction, gunslinger paradise. So for most….very solid advice. In all environs, accuracy counts, the riflemans skill set is advantageous at all ranges.
otto
I remember reading about York. Guy had a HUGE set of balls… he couldn’t get a bead on the machine gunner, so he aimed about 6 inches above the muzzle flash and fired…. while the MG was aimed at him.
Hard-fucking-core…
Check out Captain H.W. McBride… his book, A Rifleman Went To War, is a pretty damn amazing contemporaneous account of trench warfare. Guy started off a Captain in the US Army, resigned his commission and then joined up with the Canadians as a Private. By the end of the war, he was again a Captain… he was a machine gunner, and some of the info he puts out (like using trigonometry to figure out the correct firing angle to hit a road intersection a few miles away – he noticed the Germans were handing out chow at that intersection at night – so he did the math, had all the MG’s in his section dial in the same angle and, in the middle of the night, blaze off a few belts of ammunition. In the morning, the Germans shelled the shit out of them in retaliation because he wiped out dozens of Germans with that high-angle fire….)
His story of “the flag” is pretty fucking funny… I won’t tell you that one unless you really want me to… save it for later… no spoilers..
Billy, do you mean Roman pilium? The Japanese makibishi were great, portable defensive weapons, too.
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And then, unpleasant as it sounds, you have the advantage of psych warfare on the zombies… kill the first few and leave them hanging around and the others tend to just keep walking.
Keep up that 1000 yard shot practice, because when the vibrant youths FSA cupboards t get bare, they’ll be on the move for the long pork chop fer shure..
Hotel Selling Cooked Human Meat Found In Onitsha *Police Arrests 11 With Fresh Human Heads.
http://www.osundefender.org/?p=119765
Thinker
As I remember, the Roman Pilium was a spear. The Roman infantry would throw them and they would stick in the shields of their opponents. They were made ‘soft’ on purpose so they would bend and weigh down their shields.. which actually fits with the picture you posted.
No, what I’m thinking of is a short piece of steel about 6 to 8 inches long, thin and sharp. Barbed on the end just like a fish-hook. As I remember, Caesar used these during the double encirclement of the Gaulish army. The romans stuck them in the ground randomly, points up, so the Gaulish soldiers would step on them and spike themselves in place, making them easy targets for the archers….
I’ll see if I can track down the name of it and a picture…
Yeah, think you’re right, Billy. And the Roman tribulus became what we know as caltrops now.
Not that it matters, either. Don’t waste too much time looking it up. I’m just fascinated by historical tactics and weaponry.
Nah dude… now it’s stuck in my head… It was Caesar at the battle of Alesia. He had his guys build a double fortress… an inner ring and an outer ring. One of the things they used was that spikey thing… and it wasn’t a caltrop.
Saw some english guy talking about it on History Channel when they were trying to see if Caesar’s guys really COULD build a double fortress in the time allotted… heard about them before, but the example he had was mean looking as shit… about as thick as a pencil. 6 or 8 inches long and a wicked barb on the end… you step on that, it would go right through your boot, your foot and come out the other side… leaving you jumping around, voicing your displeasure at the inventor of such a thing, but unable to get away…
I remember reading about Alesia in a book on the 10 greatest battle strategies of all time. As I recall, Alesia was on a hilltop and the Romans dug two trenches all the way round it, channeling water into one. They starved the Gauls out, for the most part, but the fighting was brutal, with Gauls outnumbering Romans 10 to 1.
Could you be thinking of stimuli?
“When the Romans were besieged or sometimes as preventive measures against possible enemies, they organized different recourses against the besiegers: in front of the walls they put stimuli –stakes with iron points stuck in the ground like spikes-, strobes –funnels in the ground with a pointed stake at the bottom-, lilia –wooden obstacles full of iron points-, cippi –pointed stakes that simulated bushes-; after these obstacles, they used to make a fosse –fossa- that they filled with water, becoming a marsh that avoided the besiegers to pass; after that, a rampart –agger- full of thorny bushes; finally, a wall reinforced with battlements and defensive towers.”
http://catedu.es/aragonromano/artillen.htm
When a platoon charged at York, he picked ’em off from the back to the front. Said he learned it shooting ducks or somesuch. If you shot the first duck in line the rest would scatter. Figured it worked the same way with men. By picking them off back to front, none of them ever saw a comrade fall and so kept on their same line.
Fucker had ball the size of watermelons.
Another deadly ass prick was Audie Murphy. I think they are still counting the Germans that little prick killed. And the time he called the artillery in onto a German tank battalion – with him perched in the middle on one of the fucking tanks – defies belief. He must not have given a shit whether he lived or died.
I live out West, ie east of the sierra mountains, not to be confused with the ilk on the other side. In my club, I shoot twice a year at ranges of 100-500 meters. Old time ballistics, .45-70, 415-500 grain lead bullets. Ups and downs throughout the range, of course, mother nature has provided crosswinds of 10-15+ mph, intermittently. After 3 days I’m hitting the 400-500 m targets, sometimes on target, 1 sq ft. 100-300 meters, got it. And this is all on iron sights. No glass allowed. It can be done, not magic nor voodoo. Just practice. And that was just the first outing.
To Zarathustra, I knew a guy, now deceased, was a flame thrower, USMC in the Pacific theater, WW2. He had no illusions about who would not be taken prisoner. My guess if I were the enemy, he would have taken top honors before snipers/machinegunners. Hot topic no doubt.
ralph
I’m just starting out on the path of seriously playing with charcoal burners…
Got an 1871 Remington Roller, the NY Militia version, in .50-70… MAN! And I thought that making accurate smokeless ammo was complicated!
Remember reading about the 2nd Battle of Adobe Walls and that insanely long shot made by Billy Dixon – 1,538 yards! With open sights! I am soooo not worthy…
Pretty cool that you shoot an old thumper on a regular basis… +1
Had to look that one up…
Second Battle of Adobe Walls
Thinker
Yeah, the indians picked a fight with a bunch of buffalo hunters.. guys who made their living making long range shots with really big, powerful rifles… and they picked that fight in open, rolling country…
Not the best plan, IMHO…
Dixon never claimed that his shot was anything other than luck…. but like the old saying goes “Luck will often save a man, if his courage holds”…
I think confidence and courage are the better parts of luck.
Think
Oh, I’m not so sure about that…
If not for luck, I wouldn’t be here.
Example: I remember once, my wife and I were driving back to Germany from Italy. Had to go through this really long tunnel in Switzerland, and it was snowing/raining a bitch…
When we popped out on the Germany side of the tunnel, there were all these big fucking rocks in the road, scattered around. Biggest one, about the size of a large loaf of bread. It was almost midnight.
We were the only car on the road at the time, so we stopped at the exit of the tunnel and debated driving through the rock field… we decided to go for it. Bounced and bumped our way through and kept on going. We got home (Stuttgart) a few hours later and, because it was so late, we unplugged the phones and went to bed.
Got up the next day and turned on the news.
At about 10 minutes after midnight, the hillside next to the German exit of the tunnel let go in a landslide, sweeping several drivers to their deaths (including one family in a motorhome). The very same place we stopped and debated continuing on. We missed the landslide by less than 10 minutes…
Oh yeah, I believe in luck… fate… the X Factor… whatever you want to call it.
You’ve got a point there, particularly with that story.
I was thinking more in the context of the 1500+ yard shot, which must have taken some confidence on Dixon’s part to even attempt. And yeah, luck that he actually hit someone with it and maybe changed the course of history.
But luck, as in it’s not your time until it is… that’s another matter.
Think
As I remember, the indians had those hunters dead to rights, or so they thought..
So, they decided to taunt them some. One brave decided to show his ass, and I guess Dixon didn’t take too kindly to that…
That’s just all sorts of wrong… you’ve got your enemy way outnumbered, they’re holed up with no escape, you’re almost a mile away and so you decide to wave your ass at them…
ZAP!
Actually, it’s pretty fuckin’ funny, now that I think about it… 🙂
A new form of irony….
“A new form of irony….” — Thinker
Booooooo! 🙂
Stoked this thread is still on the list, after a few days out of town.
Re high-end handloading: Machines are pretty good. But all commercial ammo, so far as I understand, measures powder volumetrically. Some with tighter tolerance than others, but still by volume. A handloader can use a powder measure, which also measures volumetrically, but can adjust more frequently, tightening the tolerance. Better yet, he can weigh each powder charge, as closely as he wishes. Volumetrics vary depending on the powder type, but weight (mass) of powder is the key. The precision handloader can sort brass by weight, which reflects volume (for a given brand/alloy), which closely controls chamber pressure for a given charge. If he chooses, he can sort projectiles by weight (if they are high-end match quality, this may not be necessary, except between lots). I have never weighed primers, and I don’t think it worth the effort, at least not at my level. Point is, each round (for a given batch) is much more consistent than a factory loading. Also, the load can be tuned for a specific rifle.
Billy observed that rifles are finicky-I will attest that they can be, but it depends. I have a rifle that shoots any premium quality ammo (of comparable ballistics) to the same point of aim, and all with sub 3/4 MOA accuracy-very fucking nice!. Another that will shoot any premium load to 3/4 or so MOA, but different loads may group may +/- 3 MOA or more. Other rifles that group well with one load and suck with others. Bottom line, you need to shoot the damn thing to find out. Hopefully you don’t wear out the barrel before finding the right load!
Final thought-for reaaaallly long range anti-personnel shots, 338 Lapua or 416 Barrett are the top choices, but these suckers are EXPENSIVE to shoot-top end brass is $2/round, and can only be loaded a few times at the extreme pressures they are designed for. Cheaper brass lasts even fewer reloads. Projectile choices are limited. 50 BMG, on the other hand, is relatively expensive and specialized, but surplus brass is readily available, and the projo choices are truly amazing. With the right projo, 1,000 yard shots can do a lot more than take out an individual.
NSA-Kiss my ass, you traitorous bastards.