There he goes again. Hardscrabble Farmer with another comment that deserved its own post:
Virtually everything I have to say is viewed through a lens of who I am and what I do, it can’t be helped. To be honest in this world is to offer the insights you have on the subjects you know. Most people have all kinds of opinions, but they don’t know what they’re talking about or even how they came by their beliefs.
There are two ways of producing food- and by this I mean consumables which is produced via the natural process, not in a laboratory.
Sustainable farming is one means, Industrial agriculture the other. A vegetable produced through sustainable farming produces more calories for consumption than it consumes in production, examples of this are tomatoes grown organically in soil fertilized with rotted compost made from animal or vegetable matter/waste or beef that comes from an open range farm where stocking density never exceeds a carbon neutral fix. Sustainable farming produces more than food as an end product and most of these end products are either invisible to the end consumer- and so unimportant to them if they are unaware of them, or intangible to anyone outside of the process.
Some of these unseen products are carbon locked into the soil, increase in the tilth of soil, decreased erosion, improved water quality, improved pasture, humane welfare of livestock, improved bloodlines and overall health of animals, minimal use of hydrocarbons in production, zero use of chemical inputs to soil, water or foodstuffs produced, development and sustainability of rural economies, increased health and vigor of farm families, decentralized production, fewer food borne illnesses, etc In fact it would take a lot more than an essay to list all of the benefits. The main negative- especially in our current economic position is higher cost for end product.
Industrial agriculture is based on the premise that food is no different than any other profit making good and as long as the dollar value of the end sales exceeds the dollar value of production, any other effect is immaterial. It is less farming and more akin to strip mining calories from an acreage.
It requires an ever increasing amount of chemical inputs, it reduces soil health, erosion, water retention in soil, and fouls watercourse. It usually demands inhumane practices of livestock due to overcrowding, alteration of living animals (docking of tails and ears, teeth/beak clipping, muscle degeneration, unnatural life cycles, pharmaceutical supplementation, increased risk of food borne pathogens and fatalities spread rapidly via centralized distribution, destruction of rural communities, loss of generational knowledge of natural cycles and remedies, etc. The key to this type of agriculture is cheap hydrocarbons which have risen fivefold in price over the past fifteen years and are no longer inexpensive.
Bottom line? By continuing along a path of industrial agriculture as a means of providing cheap food we have lost virtually every supplemental benefit and maximized every possible deficit. The vast majority of lands now under industrial agricultural use would not be fit to farm in the event of a halt in hydrocarbon inputs. The vast majority of people involved in industrial agriculture would no longer know how to “farm”. It would be like taking newly returning combat infantrymen and placing them in a neonatal unit without training.
The fact that virtually anyone in the US can obtain some cheap food at any given moment is not indicative of a healthy or sane system- in fact it is just the opposite. It is evidence of a system so focused on keeping people fat and pacified through the consumption of non-nutritional calories put together through a combination of heavily centralized, soil and water damaging processes controlled by large corporations whose bottom line depends on inhumane treatment of livestock, environmental destruction, erasure of generational skills and knowledge and the malnutrition of its end users.
I understand where food comes from and how to improve the quality of soil, water and environment because my life depends upon it. I was called to farming the way a minister is called to the cloth and view my obligation as sacred having taken a vow of poverty (or near) in order to do it. I speak from limited, but deep experience and I can tell you that while this is not the same discipline as the one Jim has discussed in his piece about our economic situation above, it is tied to it and is an integral part of it.
I am not a predictor of collapses, I have no special knowledge of where our nation is heading, but I am observant and I can tell when something is unhealthy and when something is heading towards death and if our nation were a woodlot, I would anticipate that the next time a dry season came along and an errant spark drifted by that it will burn to the ground. Pretending that everything is right with the world because you happen to have a full belly and a working Internet connection is a shallow means by which to assess the current conditions. I have no idea what the elites know about the future that they are not sharing with us or if they know anything at all and are simply operating like the most ignorant EBT card holder in the hood, getting while the getting is good, but I do know that the path we are on is unsustainable, politically, socially, culturally, economically and naturally.
Make of that prognostication what you will.
SSS, Permit me to give you some friendly advice. Ignore this thread, just pretend it never existed.
Scrabble
You’re exaggerating the case on glyphosate (Roundup). It’s a friggin weed and grass killer, and it doesn’t hurt you unless you drink the shit. Won’t get into ground water because of the rapid degradation factor, but it can persist in surface water for usually up to a few months.
WTF is wrong with killing weeds in a field of corn, wheat, or soybeans? There is NO CREDIBLE scientific study that the use of Roundup is harmful TO YOUR HEALTH. None. You don’t want that stuff in your body? Fine. You have that choice. 99% of the rest of the U.S. population doesn’t have that choice. What’s your solution …… to a problem that doesn’t exist?
As for your statement, “Your net benefit is to enable the large scale production of three monocultures that are further stripped of nutrition through processing and age.” Bullshit. Total fucking bullshit.
How much protein, carb, and mineral nutrition is stripped when I eat some Conagra black beans, pinto beans, and kidney beans which I use to make my famous 3-bean chile? I submit ……. not enough to make a goddamned difference. I get ALL of my healthy nutritional needs from wise use of processed foods. I emphasize the word “wise.” My wife sees to that.
Let me be clear, Scrabble. Your lifestyle is admirable, and no one knows the benefits of what you are doing more than I. I grew up in a Mennonite farming community, and let me tell you, those people bring some absolutely smoking shit to the food market. Can’t be beat, anytime, anywhere.
But I don’t live there anymore. I have to do the best I can with what is available in a desert climate. That means eating sensibly with what’s available. And trying my best to stay away from the legal and global crack cocaine …. nacho cheese Doritos.
SSS – Continue to sensibly eat Monsanto’s gifts to humanity and when you assume ambient air temperature I will not come to piss on your grave because I made a vow when I retired from the Military that I would never again sand in line.
“when you assume ambient air temperature I will not come to piss on your grave because I made a vow when I retired from the Military that I would never again sand (sic) in line.”
—-Roy@SSS
My goodness, Roy. I’m going into the ground in a flag-draped coffin. Arlington National Cemetery. I’d love for you to show up there and try to piss on my grave. The line will be short. You. And that will be your last conscious act on Earth.
SSS, Arlington, geez. Why would you further pollute RE Lee’s ancestral estate with your remains? If it were up to me, I’d exhume all the yankee graves from it and ship them north for them to dispose of them.
“You’re exaggerating the case on glyphosate (Roundup). It’s a friggin weed and grass killer, and it doesn’t hurt you unless you drink the shit. Won’t get into ground water because of the rapid degradation factor, but it can persist in surface water for usually up to a few months.”
I was using glyphosate as an example of why GMO’s were created. The vast majority of genetically modified crops are altered not to improve nutritional quality, but to resist herbicides. An herbicide cannot distinguish between bluegrass of pigweed. It’s entire purpose is to kill all photosynthesizing plant life in order to allow GMO seed to get a head start (pre-emergent is the word they use). Yes, Glyphosate breaks down when exposed to air, but soils under no till or industrial agricultural production lack tilth- the complex structure that enables plants to grow without the application of NPK. Soils without tilth are not able to absorb water which leads to erosion and runoff. Since most Industrial Ag ops are forced to irrigate (because ground water and rainfall simply run-off rather than remain in the soil) the water, saturated with glyphosate runs into the nearest stream, pond or river where glyphosate CANNOT break down.
I am certain there are no studies about the effects of the chemical Roundup as a component in the human diet, but I know I don’t want it to be a part of my family’s diet. It’s one thing to introduce things incrementally until we can see if there are problems associated with the long term use of them- like GMO’s and glyphosate- its another to use it as a standard practice in the vast majority of agriculture simply because it makes food “cheaper”. And judging by the way Americans look these days as a result of their diet, I would offer that something is wrong. Seriously wrong and until we fix that maybe we shouldn’t be in such a rush to eliminate the last vestiges of the sustainable farmers left in this country because they cannot possibly compete against an industrial agriculture that can produce crops for less than the cost of raising them the old fashioned way.
“There is NO CREDIBLE scientific study that the use of Roundup is harmful TO YOUR HEALTH.”
———– SSS
You can thank Monsanto for THAT !!!
Did you know that once 4 out of 5 doctors preferred Lucky Strike cigarettes? It must be safe!!
A chemical company restructuring plant DNA so that only THEIR plants survive. Nah …. there can’t be anything wrong wif that!
Watching SSS get crushed …. it’s a beautiful thing.
[/img]
[img
That’s like saying the NSA will oversee spying allegations by the NSA.
That’s like saying congress will oversee the STOCK act preventing congress from illegal insider information.
That’s like taking wall street bankers and giving them jobs in the federal reserve.
That’s like taking federal reserve members and getting them jobs in wall street banks.
That’s like the DOJ placing a huge obama and dem supporter in charge of the IRS scandal.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Just a correction — Glyphosate is not a pre-emergent herbicide. It must touch and be absorbed in the leaves of the plants it kills. It also binds quickly with soil particles which leads to almost-immediate degradation with a resulting metabolite called aminomethylphosphonic acid (AMPA). AMPA can remain in the soil or run off, glyphosate does not (unless it is washed off leaves by rain before it dries).
Glyphosate is often mixed with a pre-emergent herbicide for the very reason that it does NOT work on yet-undeveloped leaves and does not remain in soil in its active state. Someone posted something about beets here several months ago, claiming that beets had glyphosate in them just because they were grown in soil treated with the herbicide. Simply not true.
As for studies done on glyphosate in food, there have been many. Most have been done in Europe, including several that have been discredited due to biased research methods. Most of these are quoted by activist groups. Other studies are available from the U.S. NIH and the journal Nature Biotechnology has a selection here.
Glyphosate is a safe, effective product. The REAL issue with glyphosate is over-use and resulting resistance that is developing in some species. This is not unlike the issue with modern antibiotics; over-use is what leads to superbugs and reduced efficacy, not the antibiotic itself.
I have to clarify my statement that “glyphosate is safe…”
There ARE studies that show that it, and its byproducts can be endocrine disruptors in sufficiently-high concentration. This is what led to the government’s standard of 40ppm. That was increased in July 2013 from the former tolerance level of 20ppm.
“Glyphosate is not a pre-emergent herbicide”
Perhaps I was unclear, it is used to kill plant life while giving GMO Roundup Ready seed a chance to grow before anything else can grow back. It is Ag Industry standard to use in conjunction with pre-emergent herbicides as well.
http://www.minnesotafarmguide.com/news/crop/research-shows-value-of-pre-emergent-herbicide-in-glyphosate-systems/article_04ee61d8-ca52-577b-95a9-5f044c5cdab5.html
“Glyphosate is a safe, effective product. ”
No it isn’t . Because of what you wrote below.
“The REAL issue with glyphosate is over-use and resulting resistance that is developing in some species. This is not unlike the issue with modern antibiotics; over-use is what leads to superbugs and reduced efficacy, not the antibiotic itself.”
Like all the noxious crap Monsanto peddles to farmers using its corporate might to bully them into buying it,, this product only works until someday it won’t anymore.
What then? Some new chemical? It is the height of hubris to think we can keep going down this road forever.
No one is suggesting we go down this road forever, Eddie. But, like the antibiotic example, would you advocate for discontinuing all use just because a segment of the population uses it incorrectly?
Oh, and it’s important to note that it’s not Monsanto peddling this. Glyphosate went off patent in 2000, almost 14 years ago. The companies who peddle it now include Bayer, Dow AgroSciences, Du Pont, Cenex/Land O’Lakes, Helena, Monsanto, Platte, Riverside/Terra, and Zeneca.
Personally, I’d be happy just seeing it removed from consumer retail application, as that’s where the most environmental contamination comes from. Keep it limited to farmers who are trained and licensed to use it properly, and who have the most to lose from incorrect application.
Did you all know that the earth is now producing fewer calories than man is consuming?
There would be no way to do that without chemicals, and fake-food.
This is bullshit.
Loved your opinions Hardscrabble, thank you for sharing.
I’m in the camp if we ate real food in the proper quantities, then there would be enough. The problem then would be getting food from farmland to the deserts and other areas that man is inhabiting that are unable to support life. In the word’s of Sam Kinnison, maybe they should move to the where the food is.
SSS, bless you, you never tire of your spoonfed beliefs. There is a reason that the “nutritional” information on produce has not been updated since the 1950s, and it isn’t budget cutting or a mistake.
I’m sure our tax dollars have paid for this information, it just isn’t being released which tends to mean the results would be bad/shocking.
@Stucky, if you start canning, start with tomatoes first. As they are highly acidic they do not require as much fret and worry as other items. After you feel confident with that try jams & jellies.
My dad’s parents were massive canners (even though they lived in a big city for fifty years). Going down into their basement was a treat to see the hundreds of jars lined up on grandpa’s homemade shelves. They canned tomatoes, pickled beets, pickles, cauliflower, peas, carrots, corn, you name it. Never used anything but an open-boil method and not one of their 10 kids died from food poisoning – even though the “experts” say you shouldn’t do things that way.
I learned at my granddad and mom’s knees.
Back in the early 90s I was regularly putting up 100 quarts of tomatoes a year, then I got busier, made more money and for awhile allowed propaganda to flower my opinions.
Now I’m back canning again, I just wish I had a partner in it. Instead, all I hear is how cheap commercial is. Though he does admit to a higher quality, he just refuses to help get it.
Trying to get ‘murkins to give up their crap food isn’t going to happen.
Besides, how else do you think millions of breeders will be controlled once all hell breaks loose?
Doritos and Cokes for all.
Nutrition and health for none.
[img
.cms[/img]
In the long run, resistant weeds are a worse problem than the pollution with glyophosphates, most likely. Suggest reading Restoration Agriculture, by Mark Shepard.
And Monsanto may not be the only producer of glyophosphate anymore, but their fate is inextricably bound up with that product, because of their dominance in the seed market. Selling “round-up ready seeds”, which are of course genetically modified, is their greatest evil.
Nothing personal Thinker. But I am convinced that companies like Monsanto, Dow, and Chevron start the whole process by inventing a new poison, and then figure out ways, using the proven technique of expensive lobbying, to make damn sure it gets a market. The whole industry is built on products we never really needed, and the whole conduit scheme has ruined farming as a business and driven many, many American farmers off their land by bankrupting them.
“Get big or get out” is what those companies told farmers a generation ago now. Farmers did get big, using borrowed money. Unfortunately all the hydrocarbon based fertilizers and herbicides and other chemicals never created enough return for most farmers for them to pay their loans off.
Most farmers today who use Round-Up and GMO seeds are trapped in a vicious cycle of debt that they cannot escape. They are under the thumb of the corporate interests and slaves to the system. Meanwhile Monsanto (just one example) makes about 12 billion a year in profits. And when they poison the earth so badly that the ground is permanently salted and won’t grow anything, they’ll quietly go out of business (like Union Carbide and many others) and leave us with their chemical mess.
Not going to dispute that, Eddie. They definitely got big and that’s how they stayed in business.
Those are also the ones getting the Farm Bill handouts, for the most part. There are a slew of “small guys” out there who get nothing, but are still criticized as if they’re the massive, Big Ag conglomerates. They may not be organic, mom-and-pop shops, but they still produce a lot of great food in local areas all throughout the country. They’re well aware of the fact that (1) killing their customer is bad for business and (2) raping the land and polluting the environment will kill their business. And so they’re responsible, just the same.
On average the human life span increase about 3 month every year.
How is this possible?
Once again, TeresaE stops by and takes a giant shit on a thread about food with …
“SSS, bless you, you never tire of your spoonfed beliefs. There is a reason that the “nutritional” information on produce has not been updated since the 1950s, and it isn’t budget cutting or a mistake.”
FACT. 1990: Nutrition Labeling and Education Act requires all packaged foods to bear nutrition labeling and all health claims for foods to be consistent with terms defined by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. The law preempts state requirements about food standards, nutrition labeling, and health claims and, for the first time, authorizes some health claims for foods. The food ingredient panel, serving sizes, and terms such as “low fat” and “light” are standardized.
Tessie missed it by nearly two generations. Fact. Who’s spoonfed, cupcake?
Theresa – When dealing with SSS there are things to be taken into consideration. First he allegedly graduated from the US Air Force Academy with a “BS” in Political Science which all other Universities give a BA for nonobjective courses. All the other Service Academy’s, Army, Navy, Coast Guard and Merchant Marine Academies graduate only engineers. The Air Force wants pilots with the main requirement being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. The AF Academy’s rationalization being the core requirements have enough science courses to justify a “BS”. As you can see the lowering of standards results in something like SSS.
In an earlier reply to me SSS set up a straw man if I did something I said I would not do he would like to see violence by proxy against me. This exemplifies what Chris Hedges spoke of in “the Menace of the Military Mind” partially extracted below.
“ Repetitive rote learning and an insistence on blind obedience—similar to the approach used to train a dog—work on the battlefield. The military exerts nearly total control over the lives of its members. Its long-established hierarchy ensures that those who embrace the approved modes of behavior rise and those who do not are belittled, insulted and hazed. Many of the marks of civilian life are stripped away. Personal modes of dress, hairstyle, speech and behavior are heavily regulated. Individuality is physically and then psychologically crushed. Aggressiveness is rewarded. Compassion is demeaned. Violence is the favorite form of communication. These qualities are an asset in war; they are a disaster in civil society.”
Read whole article here: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37535.htm
SSS states he will be buried on Robert E Lee’s old estate which was converted to a cemetery by the Sadistic and vindictive Lincoln, Arlington. Isn’t that special? I will be cremated and have my ashes spread on my garden thus returning a bit back for a useful purpose. SSS will use up a small portion of good farm land to satisfy his selfish self-centered ego. Symbolism over substance
.
A better plan would be to do as the French did at Verdun, a major WWI battlefield where they built the Douamont Ossuary. The French took the bones of 130,000 and put them in the basement with small windows around the building where you can look in and see all these human bones. It gives you a different prospective on war than Arlington and uses much less good farmland.
SSS retired from the military and being greedy as well as probably to incompetent to do something constructive latched onto another Government teat. He is the ultimate parasite, a despicable individual i incapable of who should be recognized for what he really is, who being incapable of managing his own affairs but believes he can tell others how to manage their affairs.