Should a 9 year old girl be firing an Uzi?
Should someone be faulted, or is it just a tragic accident?
The anti-gun liberal media are all over this story to push their Anti- Second Amendment agenda.
These images show the seconds before a nine-year girl accidentally shot her gun instructor dead on Monday.
Recorded at the Bullets and Burgers shooting range in White Hills, Arizona, the edited 22-second clip plays up to the point where the girl loses control of an Uzi, striking 39-year-old Charles Vacca.
The shocking recording taken by the girl’s parents and released by police shows Vacca standing closely next to the girl when the gun recoiled as she fired on full automatic mode.
As the clip unfolds, Vacca is seen to instruct the girl to hold the weapon with two hands at all times and to take a perpendicular stance to the target.
Then Vacca asks her to fire one shot for him, which she does.
Then, Vacca tells the girl to adjust her stance and squeeze the trigger to let off a volley, but something goes wrong when she fires a second time.
His last words to the girl are: ‘Alright, full auto.’
The girl loses her two-handed grip on the weapon and it pulls to her left, striking Vacca in the head.
Charles Vacca, a father and veteran from Lake Havasu City, Arizona, was airlifted to hospital on Monday morning after the little girl shot him but died that evening.
Mohave County Sheriff Jim McCabe said the full video of the incident was ‘ghastly’.
He said that the girl had successfully fired the weapon several times before when it was set on ‘single shot’ mode.
However, the horrific accident unfolded in a split second when the Israeli made weapon was set to ‘full-automatic mode’ and caused Vacca his fatal injuries.
‘The guy just dropped,’ McCabe said of Vacca, who suffered more than one gunshot to the head.
McCabe told the Las Vegas Review Journal that no charges will be filed because Bullets and Burgers is licensed and legal as an operation.
‘It’s so easy for us to go back and look at something that’s very tragic and say, ‘Boy! Why did that occur? That should not have happened because of,” said McCabe to Fox News.
‘Well, maybe from now on, that ‘because of’ will be in place.’
A spokeswoman with Mohave County Sheriff’s Office said they were shocked by the shooting.
‘This is a rarity for something like this to happen,’ the spokeswoman said to the LA Times.
Vacca was airlifted to University Medical Center in Las Vegas, Nevada, where he died of his injuries around 9pm on Monday. An autopsy will now be carried out.
The nine-year-old girl, who has not been identified, was not injured. She was with her parents as they passed through the area on vacation from New Jersey.
The range operator at Bullets and Burgers told KLAS-TV he was shocked by the incident.
Veteran: Vacca, a staff sergeant, is pictured right with his best friend Robert Vera when they served
‘We really don’t know what happened. Our guys are trained to basically hover over people when they’re shooting. If they’re shooting right-handed, we have our right-hand behind them ready to push the weapon out of the way. And if they’re left-handed, the same thing,’ operator Sam Scarmardo said.
Social media was incredulous about the tragic accident, with most people posting comments as to why a nine-year-old was allowed to fire an automatic weapon.
Liz Matthews of the John Clayton Show on 710 ESPN in Seattle said, ‘A story involving a nine-year-old shooting an UZI at a place called Burgers and Bullets would have been appalling enough. Horrifying.’
Nikki Bateman simply asked, ‘why you’d even let a nine year old handle a gun in the first place?!’
Cameron Atfield directed his anger at the parents stating he ‘hoped the parents are charged.’
Friends paid tribute to Vacca, an army veteran and a married father, as a great friend and soldier on Facebook. Best friend Robert Vera said they often laughed so much that they couldn’t breathe.
Loss: Friends paid tribute to Vacca as a great friend, soldier and father who was always smiling
Another friend added: ‘A Soldier, a father, a mentor and a friend. SSG Charles Vacca will always be remembered with a smile and admiration.’
The incident occurred at the Arizona Last Stop, which is about 25 miles south of Las Vegas, the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office told AZFamily. It is home to a shooting range, Bullets and Burgers.
‘Our guests have the opportunity to fire a wide range of fully automatic machine guns and specialty weapons,’ its website states. ‘At our range, you can shoot FULL auto on our machine guns. Let ’em Rip!’
When contacted by MailOnline, staff at Bullets and Burgers would not comment on the incident and referred questions to a nearby gun emporium, but would not say whether or not they were affiliated.
Arizona gun laws require a person to be at least 18 years old to carry a firearm, but the laws do not apply on private property or if the minor is accompanied by a parent or a certified instructor.
Promotion: Bullets and Burgers proudly advertises their offer of a cheeseburger and the choice of 20 automatic weapons to fire at the Nevada range
Weapon: The girl was using an Uzi (file picture) when the recoil send the gun over her head, shooting Vacca
Scene: The tragedy unfolded at Bullets and Burgers, an activity center 25 miles south of Las Vegas
What a moron. A 9 yr old shouldn’t be firing a full auto weapon. As you can observe, they don’t have the strength / coordination / awareness.
Agree… by all means, teach kids gun safety and how to shoot, but start with BB guns and .22s. Full-auto Uzi? Hell, I haven’t even done that.
Not the first time something like this has happened:
Father says boy who shot self at Westfield Sportsman’s Club had permission to use machine gun.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/westfield_police_release_name.html
Accidents happen, but I would think an instructor would have seen the article above and taken the necessary precautions to protect himself and the 9 year old girl. The above father was a physician, not some uneducated dolt, although I do not think I would let my kids at 9 try out an automatic weapon, even under professional guidance.
Bob.
I blame the parents and instructor. No nine year old has any business shooting an uzi. None. Period! Poor kid is going to be traumatized for life. Like Thinker said, BB guns and 22’s are where you start kids. My best friend and I are starting his grandson out with a pellet gun this fall and that is about all he is going to shoot for a couple of years.
To begin with that file picture above is not the gun fired in the video. The file picture is a mini UZI and the gun in the video is a standard UZI which has a grip around the barrel forward of the trigger.
The person responsible for this tragic incident is the instructor. It is his responsibility to insure that the entire process is done safely. It is his responsibility to only allow the shooter to fire the weapon in a safe manner. The girl did not have adequate control of the weapon. She was clearly relying on the instructor to maintain control. She should have had a death grip on the front grip and she did not, she was only lightly holding the front and when it started to climb it came completely out of her left hand. He should have had his left hand around her left hand and this tragic event would have never happened.
He screwed up and paid the ultimate price.
Good God, two deaths by machine gun fire–the media will go “gun-control crazy” over these.
I agree with ASIG–the instructor is to blame. That poor girl now has a horrible memory to live with.
My buddy went to Knob Creek Kentucky this summer and was able to fire a large variety of semi-auto and full auto weapons.
Didn’t matter you body size or claimed experience, the instructor always stood behind you with one hand on your shoulder, the other hand ready to stop you if you started to swing, both sides were clear.
Sonofabitch, this just sucks. This will haunt a lot of people for a long time, I really pity the girl and the instructors family.
Why is this a “liberal media” story and not just a “media” story? Anyone who has been around weapons knows that children and guns require either special care or total separation.
Should read instructor kills instructor with uzi. ……
I put responsibility on the parents first and foremost, what were you thinking??? That place is not the shooting gallery at the fair. These are big boy machines meant to be used by adults. The Bullets and Burgers place need to re-visit their minimum age and size policies. Hell Disneyland won’t even let kids on rides if they aren’t a certain height. Sad story.
“Nikki Bateman simply asked, ‘why you’d even let a nine year old handle a gun in the first place?!’”
Because education, that’s why.
My son has been shooting under my supervision since he was very young. Much younger than 9. He took his first deer at 10. Like card, we attended Knob Creek this year and he had the opportunity to fire an MG42.
Once upon a time, children 9 years old and younger – because they were too small for physical labor on the farm – were set to wandering the woods with a rifle, musket or shotgun, a game bag, powder and shot and told to bring home dinner. That was their JOB.
Yes, times have changed. People haven’t. Kids are perfectly capable of handling firearms safely and competently, provided they have competent instruction.
Takeaway is “competent instruction”. You don’t give a zero-experience 9 year old girl a select fire weapon and a two minute block of instruction… squirt guns have a learning curve and you need a solid foundation of skills before attempting such a thing. Also, each have their own quirks. Shooting a full size select fire Uzi isn’t the same as shooting am MP5K. Trust me, I know.
Dude was stupid for doing this. Dude got dead.
And the anti-gun mob will howl and use this to their best advantage… they just sit and WAIT – HOPING and praying for tragedies like this to occur so they can try to use it as justification to leverage some new and egregious anti-gun legislation that in the end won’t do shit…
Bunch of fucking ghouls is what they are… they need to be called on it.
Unbelievable stupidity on the part of the instructor !
I’ve worked with (built, used and sold) subbies for many years and know all too well the amount of recoil and muzzle climb they produce.
To hand one to a weak 9yo girl for, and let’s be realistic, amusement value on the girl’s part without any prior training or acclimatisation to the realities of recoil,climb or yaw is gross negligence and he paid the price for it.
At an absolute minimum he should have been holding the gun with her.
Another reason to be very, very cautious about public ranges. Common sense remains uncommon.
I’ve been swept by a kid with a loaded .22 pistol because the moron grandfather was busy chit-chatting with a buddy 10 feet away. I was not amused.
When my kids learned, it was on a .22 rifle. Why?
1. I can stand next to them and grab the rifle safely before it breaks the 180 if they forget and start turning it.
2. If a hot spent shell casing bounces into their shirt and down their back, I can…. (see #1)
3. .22 rifles have a mild report and almost no muzzle blast, so with standard ear plugs or muffs there’s no discomfort, no contribution to cumulative hearing loss.
Most people who are not apt to go on to become enthusiasts will enjoy shooting a 22 rifle…and that’s about it. The girl was patently mismatched to the firearm in question; they might as well have handed her a Desert Eagle.
The guy doing the instructing broke the first rule of gun instruction. He assumed that the gun would remain “in control.” I found even the much larger MP5 I fired years ago to jump all over the place in full auto, and I’m about 5 times the size of a 9 year old girl.
Too bad. Lots of sadness to go around on this one.
Concur with all of the above comments. The instructor killed himself, and the dimwit, dumbass parents set up their daughter to do it. Full auto? 9 yr old? Off the charts stupid. Nominee for the Darwin Award for parents and instructor.
You see these billboards on the way to Vegas; ‘fire a real machine gun’. It isn’t education when you do it on a whim while on vacation to Vegas anymore than having a hooker come to your room is sex education. The parents are dumbasses and they have probably damaged their kid for life. Child protective services will confiscate your kid for less on the basis that you put the kid in danger. I guess it is perfectly safe, it’s not like they were throwing hand grenades.
His mistake was letting a 9 year old girl fire the weapon. A boy would have had the strength to hold it in place .I should say most boys that age .
An actual photo of bb testing out the recoil strength of his overworked elbow..
[img]http://www.goldismoney2.com/attachment.php?s=f94d2747e130811a4ab673669bb9f14e&attachmentid=23533&d=1348506307&thumb=1[/img]
Guns dont kill people, bullets and stupidity do.
Surely bb dated a few Skandies in his day.
Poor judgement has bad consequences.
Agree, Darwin award there.
Poor girl had to experience that.
What was seen and experienced, cannot be undone.
Actually I am reminded of someone not used to say an accelerator pedal or a cable swedging device. They freak out by the sudden acceleration or the heavy impacts on the cable end.
Instead of letting go of the throttle/trigger, they continue to depress it.
First, the parents should have never let a nine year old, male or female, go full automatic, even trained soldiers cannot stop the barrel of the gun from climbing or changing its intended trajectory.
Ever try to hold a 9x rivet gun in place? Same thing.
I would not give a 9 year old, and many an adult, either one.
Should a 9 year old girl be firing an Uzi? Sure, but only if she kills her instructor, so now none of them will ever shoot again.
First the muzzle climb of the Uzi on full auto is notoriously hard to handle ,even for a full grown man and as a so-called firearms instructor this guy should’ve known better than to let little kids play with such a dangerous weapons.There is nothing cute about a kid firing full auto.If you want cute , get them a Red Ryder and then be careful they don’t shoot their eye out.
My prayers are for the girl, she has one hell of a row to hoe from here on out. Soldiers have a hard time reconciling death, and that is their JOB.
The instructor, great guy and all around saint that he will be made to be, committed suicide. So sad he had to do it and destroy a child too.
If the gun range is encouraging/advertising this, bye-bye gun range. Insanity. One would think the “machine gun” you shoot would be bolted to some kind of a jig to keep this from happening. As a business owner that, in THIS country, has to be continuously worried about idiots – customer, employee, or trespasser – doing something stupid, getting hurt, then suing us, what in the HELL is this business thinking?
This incident will be used to create more laws, regulations, and run a few more instructors out of business. If the people involved in that industry are not acting like the ambulance-chasing lawyers and jack-booted-thugs are waiting at the door, then they are asking to be out of business. AND they will be the ones to usher in MORE unneeded, unnecessary and unConstitutional laws.
Sad situation, being made sadder by our 24/7 news cycle and liberal minded fools that blame always blame the hammer, never the fact that life itself is inherently dangerous. More so if you are stupid.
And by the point, when we have more laws, rules, regulations than has EVER been enacted on one people, it should be 100% apparent to even the most Progressive Statists amongst us. You CANNOT regulate stupid, nor law it out of existence. Impossible.
Prayers for both families, and curses for a media that uses any excuse or tragedy to further their evil agenda.
It’s a shame he got killed, but it was entirely preventable and I think it was his own fault. I assume some high roller wanted to blow some money on himself and his kids. Whoopy!
I was a licensed NRA trainer in handguns, firearms safety, and home defense and I would never have put that gun in that little girl’s hands. I’m all for shooting and teaching kids to shoot, but I’m also all for knowing their limits and not exceeding them.
I’m waiting to teach my little ones how to shoot, but I’m going to wait for them to turn 5 first. Then, after a lot of safety training, I’ll put a .22 rifle in their hands. They won’t be shooting something they can’t control and they won’t be shooting if they don’t seem ready. And they won’t be shooting full auto anything for a long time. If they’re unsafe or I think they can’t handle it, they won’t shoot.
If you absolutely must demand your little 9 year old princess fire a machinegun, could you please restrict her to a tripod-mounted one where you can limit the traverse? It’s a lot harder to muzzle sweep someone that way and if the gun runs away you can just twist the belt. No harm, no foul.
Ditto, Gilbert.
Kids are easiest to train with a 22 rifle. If a hot spent case goes down their back and they jump up to reach around behind their back, the rifle will stay pointed down-range.
Not so with a pistol.
I can’t imagine trying to grab a loaded pistol as it’s moving rapidly, probably with the shooter’s finger still on the trigger. A long gun, however, no problem.
Even adults cannot always be trusted to keep a pistol pointed down range if something VERY unexpected occurs (like that hot brass going down the back, or between the jugs
.)
Darwin Awards only go to those who check out while too young to have procreated.
I was teaching a girl to shoot once and I explained to her to keep the shotgun in firm contact with her shoulder when she fired. She didn’t do that. She decided to keep the shotgun 1 inch from her shoulder. The recoil put the shotgun into her shoulder at an uncomfortable rate of speed, causing her to yell “OWWW!” and turn around, still holding the shotgun, to point it at us with her finger still on the trigger. THAT was a frightening moment. Her friend shot much better.
Ah, that running start to the shoulder thing.
I had a son do that with an M1A. Left a bigger than normal bruise.
I strongly prefer self-loading firearms, but one has to admit that they present more opportunities for errors to turn bad.
BLANKS!!! it’s just stupid that they used real live ammo. Of course the parents and the instructor and the girl all of them are to blame. Who the hell thinks that a 9 years old should be shooting real ammo? None of them and their relatives should be allowed to be near any kind of weapon for life. There is someone else to blame and it is all of the americans, cause it is because of your war culture that your people walks the streets carring weapons as if they were in constant war. You love war, you love destruction, you create terror so you have to protect from yourselves.
GilbertS says:
“I was teaching a girl to shoot once and I explained to her to keep the shotgun in firm contact with her shoulder when she fired. She didn’t do that. She decided to keep the shotgun 1 inch from her shoulder. The recoil put the shotgun into her shoulder at an uncomfortable rate of speed, causing her to yell “OWWW!” and turn around, still holding the shotgun, to point it at us with her finger still on the trigger. THAT was a frightening moment. Her friend shot much better. ”
Damn dude! My number one rule when teaching anyone to shoot is they get exactly 1 (one) round only. Young kids of about 8 or older get one bb or pellet at a time with emphasis on proper handling. Never, ever give a noob more than one round.
Jav, please do share all your personal experiences of walking the streets among gun carrying Americans. How many times were you threatened or actually shot? It pains me to think I might be in a position to save someone like you who’d rather trust his govt to have the guns rather than free citizens. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Do you even have ideas of your own or do you just parrot the party line?
Please IndenturedS and GilbertS, do me a favor and go teach this 9 year old girl cause if you are lucky she’ll do the same. People with your mind and thoughts should be as far as possible of guns. There is absolutely no need that you go armed in the street, how many people have you saved by killing other people? please tell me why you need your gun, how many times you really had to use it, and why you never fix the real problem but stick with the false statment that “it’s your freedom right”. And sure it was frightening Gilbert, not what happened when the girl pointed at you, but how you managed to be in the position of having a gun and letting other people shoot. You should be in jail.
Damn, how do brain-dead idiots find their way in here?
[img
[/img]
Jav there will come a day, when all your liberal, statist, claptrap, is whisked away from the brutal reality you refuse to acknowledge.
I predict, that on THAT day, you will 100% understand the folly of your current belief system.
I’ll pray for you to have the strength, and sheer luck, to be able to tell others about your own personal revelation.
Until then, keep believing that criminals that kill people will magically decide ONE MORE law is the one they will follow.
Keeping guns away from the law-abiding only serves to make more of them victims. Victims of both the criminal, and statist, elements.
I so wished people like you still shocked me. Instead you just make me so freaking sad. Too stupid to see danger barreling down upon you and far too stupid to realize YOU could stop it. Good luck buddy.
Jav, had I been teaching that girl I would still be alive for numerous reasons. First off I’d never allow a child to use a gun like that anymore than I’d let a child do a million other things. Second, she’d only get one round at a time regardless of the gun type/caliber. Read my response to Gilbert above. Children should learn to shoot with low caliber long guns until they can repeatedly demonstrate proper handling.
I’ve carried a gun for 20 years or more. I’ve never needed it and that makes me very happy. As a matter of fact, no one has ever seen my gun in public. Only twice in all that time have I felt the need to place my hand on it in anticipation of using it but both situations resolved themselves before it got that far. Why do I carry it? Number one, I don’t want to become a victim. Two, having it and not needing it is preferable to needing it and not having it. Three, when seconds count, police are only minutes away. Four, I don’t want or need some dumbass govt drone, cop or otherwise, deciding when, if and how I should protect myself. I have a little something called personal responsibility and I’m capable of making rational choices. Hoping that I or my family is never going to be threatened is not an option. Based on your comments I sure as hell cannot depend on my fellow man to help me out and that includes cops as courts have ruled they are not obligated to help.
Do a little personal research on what happens to citizens who are disarmed (wholesale) by their government. Again, do you have any independent ideas of your own or is it just party line thoughts that fill your head. Retard!
Thank you for your tag TE, I didn’t know I was liberal. Dont you wish to end all this danger you are so afraid of? there are many ways to do it and none of them is that everybody carries a weapon, absolutely not.
You people don’t make me sad anymore, now you make me sick, you make me poke.
You all love “war for peace”, you defend yourself by killing others. What about taser?, why dont you go with a taser if you respect your life at least as much as the others. Dont you see how much more likely is that another of your “fellows” kills you by accident, that a real bad guy would ever want to kill you. I don’t say you can’t practice with a gun with safety in your home or range but living in constant state of war, thats not what I want for me or anybody.
You don’t even realize the real world you live in.
I know it would be fucking hard for you all but I propose you a game, please watch some of the history that you don’t know about and tell me what you think. You could watch the 9th or 10th episode of “Untold American History”, and if you can resist it maybe you learn something so you can tell me. Please point me out all the wrongness of my ways.
And yes IndenturedS, you sure would have let her shoot, if she asked you so badly and wanted so badly because she has seen her dad or some film, and you would be so amazed of her determination to shoot the uzi, you also would have let her shoot.
The entire world is on war now, and it’s not because people like me, guys it is all because of you.
Please stop listening to the same media all the time, stop your own brainwash.
See the real problem not just what they want you to see.
As V said ‘Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.’
It’s the goverment who is the major criminal of all and who wants you to keep supporting war. But it’s not with more guns and war how all this ends, at least not gonna end in the good way.
Jav references V when discussing the evil government and actually thinks we should surrender our guns to that same evil government. What a Moran.
Did you understand the fucking movie Jav the Dumbass? He blew up their fucking Parliament to make his point.
You must be some inbred European to believe your own drivel.
[img
[/img]
That was V for Voltaire, my fault, didn’t finish it. I am also totally against what Europe does in many aspects, and do feel that Switzerland has done as much for war as USA does. But taking back the Vendetta film that you like so much, my point is that there are many ways besides blowing things up and the neverending war for peace. The only thing that we need is to unite for once in peace, thats all. We all want the same, why dont we try the not killing way this time?
Voltaire had a healthy mistrust for government authority. You propose that citizens voluntarily hand over our guns to the very same people who wage wars across the globe, are militarizing local police forces, and use surveillance to monitor everything we do?????????
I’ve never heard anything so asinine.
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.”
― Voltaire
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
― Voltaire
“It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.”
― Voltaire
FUCK YOU JAV!
If it weren’t for people like me and our guns, you would be a beaten, soaking, sobbing mess in the corner waiting for the next guy to take his turn. I wouldn’t be surprised if you are one now.
–Anyone remember Orson Wells’ War of the Worlds?
STRANGER: All these little office workers that used to live in these houses — they’d be no good. They haven’t any stuff to ’em. They just used to run off to work. I’ve seen hundreds of ’em, running wild to catch their commuter train in the morning for fear they’d get canned if they didn’t; running back at night afraid they won’t be in time for dinner. Lives insured and a little invested in case of accidents. And on Sundays, worried about the hereafter. The Martians will be a godsend for those guys. Nice roomy cages, good food, careful breeding, no worries. After a week or so chasing about the fields on empty stomachs they’ll come and be glad to be caught.
PIERSON: You’ve thought it all out, haven’t you?
STRANGER: You bet I have! And that isn’t all. These Martians will make pets of some of ’em, train ’em to do tricks. Who knows? Get sentimental over the pet boy who grew up and had to be killed. . . And some, maybe, they’ll train to hunt us.
PIERSON: No, that’s impossible. No human being. . .
STRANGER: Yes they will. There’s men who’ll do it gladly. If one of them ever comes after me, why. .
PIERSON: In the meantime, you and I and others like us. . . where are we to live when the Martians own the earth?
STRANGER: I’ve got it all figured out. We’ll live underground. I’ve been thinking about the sewers. Under New York are miles and miles of ’em. The main ones are big enough for anybody. Then there’s cellars, vaults, underground storerooms, railway tunnels, subways. You begin to see, eh? And we’ll get a bunch of strong men together. No weak ones; that rubbish — out.
—Seems rather apropos to today…
And as for that 9yo, I would have her straightened out and on target in less time than it takes to scoop up that other dude’s brains and get him on the meatwagon to the morgue. So blow me.
The problem with pathetic testosterone-deficient liberal wussies, like Jav, is they believe peace and order are permanent and chaos is merely an atavism, not the other way around. The vast majority of human history is violence and mayhem, not peace. I had a prof once who stated that in all recorded history, there were roughly 200 years of peace. (I don’t know if he was accurate, but it’s “truthy.”) Violence, aggression, fear, terror, anarchy, and slavery are the default settings of mankind. Even now, when we are supposedly evolved, we live in a constant state of global chaos. Ferguson, Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Sandy, and other events illustrate just how fragile “order” really is. Plan your life accordingly. Get a gun to protect yourself while you still can.
The liberal view of violence is utterly silly and childish. Violence is nasty and force might be brutish, but in reality we live in a violent, brutish world where only the threat of violence in return can prevent violence from being done. Don’t believe me? Why do you follow the law? What stops rape, murder, and thievery? The threat of violence by the police. If you don’t follow the rules, men with guns will come get you. If you hurt others, men with guns will come get you. If you don’t pay your taxes, men with guns will come get you.
When you consider the men with guns are usually not around when bad people resort to violence, your only option to protect yourself is to be prepared to perform violence against those who would do violence to you. It’s all very simple and I think some old dudes named Locke and Hobbes explored this all a few years ago. It’s on the internet somewhere. Some other dude named Lott also addressed more recently in his study using DOJ statistics, “More Guns, Less Crime.” Lott proved using the govt’s own official numbers that crime goes down where civilians arm and protect themselves. That’s “Settled” fact and no amount of arguing will disprove it. The statistic I saw was firearms are used more than 1,000,000 times a year to prevent violence. In many cases, they aren’t even shot, just brandished. The #s don’t lie-unless you accept the DOJ’s own admission that most gun-related self-incidents are probably not reported, meaning there are MORE than a million cases of firearms being used in self defense every year. THAT is why guns are important.
For a gutless wonder, like JAV, owning a firearm is more important than for a real man, like myself, since JAV is probably much less capable of protecting JAV’s self. When you consider the police are not necessarily required to protect you, it is only more important to be able to protect yourself. (Police are really more like historians, in that they try to figure out who offended the state and then try to capture them for punishment. They are not required to actually protect you. Police chiefs have stated this defense in court. Cops are not your bodyguards. You are your bodyguard)
“why dont we try the not killing way this time?” ——- Jav
It’s been tried. It just doesn’t work. Humans are “wired” for war.
Jesus taught peace … and a few dozens of billions and two thousand years of history … how did that work out? Buddha taught peace …. how did that work out in their neck of the woods? The Mennonites and other pacifist groups in Europe HAD to leave for America because they were persecuted by bad people with guns.
Your idealism is so ….. cute. And, deadly.
PACIFIST. Those who “abjure” violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf. -Orwell
Jav Forgets the past:
In 1931, Weimar authorities discovered plans for a Nazi takeover in which Jews would be denied food and persons refusing to surrender their guns within 24 hours would be executed. They were written by Werner Best, a future Gestapo official. In reaction to such threats, the government authorized the registration of all firearms and the confiscation thereof, if required for “public safety.” The interior minister warned that the records must not fall into the hands of any extremist group.
In 1933, the ultimate extremist group, led by Adolf Hitler, seized power and used the records to identify, disarm, and attack political opponents and Jews. Constitutional rights were suspended, and mass searches for and seizures of guns and dissident publications ensued. Police revoked gun licenses of Social Democrats and others who were not “politically reliable.”
During the five years of repression that followed, society was “cleansed” by the National Socialist regime. Undesirables were placed in camps where labor made them “free,” and normal rights of citizenship were taken from Jews. The Gestapo banned independent gun clubs and arrested their leaders. Gestapo counsel Werner Best issued a directive to the police forbidding issuance of firearm permits to Jews.
In 1938, Hitler signed a new Gun Control Act. Now that many “enemies of the state” had been removed from society, some restrictions could be slightly liberalized, especially for Nazi Party members. But Jews were prohibited from working in the firearms industry, and .22 caliber hollow-point ammunition was banned.
The time had come to launch a decisive blow to the Jewish community, to render it defenseless so that its “ill-gotten” property could be redistributed as an entitlement to the German “Volk.” The German Jews were ordered to surrender all their weapons, and the police had the records on all who had registered them. Even those who gave up their weapons voluntarily were turned over to the Gestapo.
This took place in the weeks before what became known as the Night of the Broken Glass, or Kristallnacht, occurred in November 1938. That the Jews were disarmed before it, minimizing any risk of resistance, is the strongest evidence that the pogrom was planned in advance. An incident was needed to justify unleashing the attack.
That incident would be the shooting of a German diplomat in Paris by a teenage Polish Jew. Hitler directed propaganda minister Josef Goebbels to orchestrate the Night of the Broken Glass. This massive operation, allegedly conducted as a search for weapons, entailed the ransacking of homes and businesses, and the arson of synagogues.
SS chief Heinrich Himmler decreed that 20 years be served in a concentration camp by any Jew possessing a firearm. Rusty revolvers and bayonets from the Great War were confiscated from Jewish veterans who had served with distinction. Twenty thousand Jewish men were thrown into concentration camps, and had to pay ransoms to get released.
The U.S. media covered the above events. And when France fell to Nazi invasion in 1940, the New York Times reported that the French were deprived of rights such as free speech and firearm possession just as the Germans had been. Frenchmen who failed to surrender their firearms within 24 hours were subject to the death penalty.
You americans have chosen war “because it’s in our history” you say, “because it’s in our nature” you say. I say our nature is intelligence and reason, and while we are still the Sapiens human, the only choice will always be Peace.
Jav
In what peace loving country do you live?
Stuck
Jav’s IP address points to Spain. I guess he never heard of the Spanish Civil War. His country was ruled by a dictator for decades. It’s a socialist paradise with 40% unemployment. There has been non-stop violence in the streets for the last five years and the country is beyond bankrupt. And he’s telling us how we should live.
“In what peace loving country do you live?” —————– Admin
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
YES, Jav, please DO tell us in which magical kumbayah kingdom it is where you reside. Seriously. Or, are you afraid to say so?
And for fuck sake … I hope it’s not England. Although …. that would be hilarious.
Ahhhh …. Spain. That’s almost as funny as being from England. Spain is a Most Peaceful nation. They love everyone …. except bulls, which are fun to torture.
Maybe El Coyote can translate this for me; “Hey, Jav, blow me!”
Countries Spain invaded between 1580–1640.
[/img]
[img
Jav said:
“And yes IndenturedS, you sure would have let her shoot, if she asked you so badly and wanted so badly because she has seen her dad or some film, and you would be so amazed of her determination to shoot the uzi, you also would have let her shoot.”
Fuck you Jav, you hijo de puta. You don’t know the first fucking thing abut me. I said what I meant and mean what I say. There is no fucking way I’d allow a nine year old child to fire an Uzi. No one benefits from that. Not only that but it gives the gun control assholes, like you, another example of irresponsible use of firearms.
If you are from Spain like admin suspects, I can can tell you that Spain is the only country I’ve ever been attacked in while in public. I got robbed and stabbed walking home in Torrejon de Ardoz one night. If I had been allowed to carry a gun there, I would have killed the bastard. As it was I just stabbed him with his own knife and walked away. Wanna tell me again about violence in America you fukstain?
I’m still waiting to hear about all the gun violence you endured walking the streets of America.
You can’t be sure IndenturedS, you still have the option and that’s the problem. A 9 year old girl should never had the option of drive a car, and we all agree on that, neither should have the option of shooting the uzi, and that should be for law, and it’s a fault of legislation, which in turn is caused by a very dangerous way of interpreting the freedom that there is in the american way of living.
And I am sorry for the assault that you suffered on that country, but you can understand how much more likely it was that you had it when you look like a tourist full of money, that in your home. But I am sure that even if the total amount of assaults in that country is bigger than in USA, the injuries and killing is much less.
You really thing that the way to end the street insecurity is that everybody has the right to kill someone that frightens him? you think so because is your american way of living but it’s proven to be totally wrong and don’t solve the cause of the problem.
Ooops.
You can’t make an Omellette without Breaking a Few Eggs.
in reality, the girl was an IS Terrorist faking she did not know how to shoot and took out the instructor to prevent him from teaching Christian 9 year old girls how to shoot an Uzi full auto.
RE