If the economy has been recovering for the last six years, unemployment has declined from 10% to 5%, and Obama has educated millions of young people by doling out $500 billion of student loans, why has the percentage of 25 to 34 year olds living in their mommy’s basement increased by 50% in the last ten years, with the trend accelerating in the last two years?
There is the propaganda dished out by the government and their corporate media mouthpiece lackeys, and there is the truth. Young people were duped into taking on billions in student loan debt with the promise of good jobs at graduation. It was a lie. Now they are left enslaved in debt, working shit service jobs, with no prospects of ever owning a house, and living in mommy’s basement.
Young people are becoming a nation of basement dwellers.
I’m gonna call bullshit on the student debt being a factor in the raise of older Millennials (the statistics is for the first half on my generation, which should scare the shit outta everybody). The raising rents, food prices, and lowering of wages (Thanks Obamacare employer mandates) attributed to the increase.
Interesting parallels with Japanese youth who’ve had a 10-15 year head start living in a stalled economy:
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogoct12/exhaustion-consumerism10-12.html
It seems to me, based on an admittedly small sample size, that young adults today are about on the same level of maturity as young adolescents were several decades ago. People who are biologically 26 might be emotionally/mentally 14 and those that are 14 might as well be 7 or 8 based on how they act. I know this does not apply to everyone of that age, but I know enough of of them to make me think there is more to it than just the shitty economy that is resulting in ‘kids’ living at home with their parents well past the time that they should be out in the world on their own.
@Stephanie
Something else far more insidious than all of those.
They are a generation where everything is taken care of, so they honestly… honestly… do not know how to problem solve. Not as a cultural group at least. They can’t navigate without GPS, they can’t plan without instant communication on tap. They can’t feel like they’ve succeeded in spite of 10 failures.
It’s not really their fault… it’s the natural consequence of generations of very smart people figuring out how to do things so humans don’t have to. Most people will not build on top of that foundation… in fact the foundation has buried most people so that their minds and souls are automated for them.
I used to be kind of impressed when someone had a neat gadget that did something better than a person. Now I’m impressed when someone can still do something that we have gadgets for. No GPS… if it weren’t for The Lady I would be doing this cross Europe trip entirely with wits. Thankfully she’s open to putting the phone and GPS aside often enough. It helps her battery life is crap too and thus it makes sense to save it for emergency. Discovered more things by accident when exploring than we could have planned out.
Anyways, their financial burden is a factor… but fact is the kids/young adults who haven’t had their minds and souls automated aren’t having any problems staying out of their parents basements. They really have been rotted from the inside out… and it started from birth… which means those individuals are permanently handicapped because their critical development phase is over.
Well it can be noted that about 85% of this age group are not living in their parents’ basement. I find it interesting that the men have a bigger problem than the women.
Yes, they are victims of the student loan scam, but it is also true that many don’t pay on their loans, (a tactic that I could agree with under the right circumstances). These are not the first folks to have trying economic circumstances in the history of the world. They have a choice to get off their butts and work two or three part-time jobs, for example, to gain their independence from Mom and Dad. I suspect these young ‘uns were never allowed to experience the pain of hard work and self-discipline as they were growing up, so they have no frame of reference for dealing with their current circumstances.
I give you Hardscrabble Farmer’s son as an example of other kinds of choices.
@Gayle
— “I find it interesting that the men have a bigger problem than the women.”
When my girlfriend decided she wanted to learn programming… she commented about how many specialty programs, financial aid, and job seeking options were targeted specifically at women. She was a bit embarrassed to realize what that really means.
— “They have a choice to get off their butts and work two or three part-time jobs”
Many of them are retarded. I mean that precisely… they have had their development retarded. Held back. They have less choice than a 12 year old because the 12 year old still has the energy of a 12 year old and the development plasticity ahead of them. The 21 year old is facing an uphill slope that is hard to sympathize with (I don’t)… but isn’t about them being lazy the same way you or I are when we’re being lazy.
“…it started from birth… which means those individuals are permanently handicapped because their critical development phase is over.”
There’s a lot to this. My experience is that many kids today have almost no connection with the natural world. Far too many have been immersed in a digital one and while this makes them highly functional with digital equipment, they’ve missed out on many of the fundamental realities of day-to-day life.
Combine this with the insidious and morally bankrupt concept of PC-correctness, and they’re going to be in for a world of hurt learning to adapt to the “real world,” i.e., they don’t handout awards for simply showing up, and yes, there really are winners…and losers. Competition is a bitch and its not going away anytime soon.
I suspect there’s also something to the concept of stimulus and response wherein the longer the gap between the two, the greater the sense one has of personal control.
In contrast, digital stimulation is completely passive, nearly instant gratification, that develops a subliminal expectation of everything happening, “right now.” In fact, in some instances, even “right now” isn’t fast enough. Perhaps this also has something to do with the ridiculous increase in ADHD diagnoses and the run-amok Rx response in this country?
It’s sad really, because this message reinforces the concept that life is all about the destination (and arriving their ASAP!), and not about the journey. It also means adapting to the reality of delayed gratification will be that much more difficult. In essence, the response seems to be, “Why bother/”
Wonder how many gradates with degrees in, say, engineering are unable to find a job that will pay off the loans they took out to get that degree?
The real scandal is the student loan debacle. There are real, viable alternatives to 4-6 years at a traditional brick-and-mortar campus for $100K in debt. Done with the proper planning there’s nothing wrong with attending a traditional campus, but far too many people would be better served pursuing certification instead
Case-in-point, cyber security is one of the fastest growing fields in the US that doesn’t require a BS (degreehttp://www.onetonline.org/link/summary/15-1122.00). While 65% of those in the field report having a BS, a young person with initiative can get a foothold in a potentially lucrative career with just certification. Entry-level is usually 12 classes (32-36 semester hours of credit). You can attend a local community college for 18-24 months and roughly $20,000 to get this done. Granted, you won’t start out making $80K but at least you’re through the initial program quicker and not six-digits in debt.
Or start in high school, take the 12 course MOOC online for free at (http://oli.cmu.edu/courses/free-open/nsc-stem-pathways/nsc-cyber-technology-program/) and the exam for $250.00 at http://certification.comptia.org/. Total cost?…a helluva lot cheaper than 4 yrs inside Ivy-covered walls.
Point being there are alternatives. Kids and their parents have been sold a bill of goods by a Nanny State government in collusion with the financial services/educational industries. It has been
a HUGE racket. But then what does the government touch that isn’t these days?
Most frequently the problem is that kids want to do what “everyone else” is doing so parents relent and go into debt to accommodate them. It’s just a continuation of accommodating their children since birth with potentially serious financial repercussions, both for child and parent (garnishment of SSI benefits, anyone?). This will stop.
Drop her before it’s too late. Basement dwelling generation.
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@Calamity – “I’m gonna call bullshit on the student debt being a factor in the raise of older Millennials (the statistics is for the first half on my generation, which should scare the shit outta everybody). The raising rents, food prices, and lowering of wages (Thanks Obamacare employer mandates) attributed to the increase.”
——————————-
Older millenial here, and I think you must be fucking insane. Sky rocketing student loan as effectively kept an entire bracket of potential high income earners out of the arena.
The US system requires upper-middle class consumption in order to continue on the charade. Unfortunately for us, they preceding generations got too greedy, and ended up saddling educated Millenials with debt before we even started kicking back into the economy.
Even well-off Millenials have been turned into spend-thrift misers by the miserable conditions of our absolutely shitty student loans.
We don’t buy new homes, we rent. Thats where your complaints about rent are coming in.
Bitching about food costs? Its the US, food is dirt cheap here, if you food costs are hitting you that hard then you weren’t doing well to begin with.
Lowering of wages? Yeah, that ties in pretty hardcore with the student loan fiasco. We outsourced the vast bulk of decent non-degreed jobs, and then glutted the market with sub-par degree holders saddled with obscene debt.
BUT….get rid of those fucking student loans, or at least lower them to what they were like for Boomers.
Well, what would happen then?
1 – More new home starts.
2 – More families starting that actually have a chance, instead of the welfare families that we currently have today.
3 – Appliance/furniture sales.
4 – Small businesses start up….
Damn man, the list goes on. Instead, we got greedy, and strangled the baby in its crib. The complete economic devastation of the middle class comes full circle with the Millenial generation.
@TPC
Gen-X here… I dropped out of college after 2 years and took a job in a risky field paying below minimum wage when you add the total hours worked.
You didn’t have to take the student loans… you didn’t have to KEEP taking them either when the end of the year approached. You either didn’t or couldn’t think the situation through.
You aren’t wrong… but you aren’t right either… because the percentage of boomers who went to college is much smaller too. Boomers were building careers without college, and if you look past the lie, so were gen-x and millenials.
TPC- I don’t know why you’re flipping out. Rents have risen, food has risen, and wages have been lowered. I don’t give a shit about debt. Let’s put this in perspective. If I am a brokeunderemployed with student loans which am I going to stop paying first, loans or rent? I am calling bullshit on the trope about student loans being the primary reason. No 20 something would willing move back home agter college unless they weren’t making enough money to pay rent, bills, and to eat. People always stop paying their debts first when they are poor.
Was supposed to mention that I built a (so far) lifetime career out of that risky field and was able to do so because I jettisoned the college path and cost burden. This was the mid 90’s before you could easily google “college is a scam”.
I don’t suppose anyone has given any consideration that it they don’t like paying on loans they shouldn’t take them out to start with.
No one forces it on you, you do it to yourself.
“TPC- I don’t know why you’re flipping out. ”
Hardly, just a disagreement.
You maintain the slowdown is due to food/rent costs, I maintain that the massive amount of student loans, coupled with poor job performance has had a worse effect than food/rent.
People can discharge all other debt in bankruptcy, but student loans are forever.
Food is cheap Calamity, you know it is. More than any other nation on Earth, the US has the cheapest food around.
Want to argue rent? Yeah, its overpriced, and that is a reflection of the massive difficulties in trying to start a new life for 18-29 year olds, the demographic typically responsible for new home starts. The demographic typically responsible for driving the economy.
The poor labor market forced people into college, and then the rug was yanked out from under them when it was set to make the top 0.01% the most money. As I said before, they got greedy and killed the cow for the milk. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
“Gen-X here… I dropped out of college after 2 years and took a job in a risky field paying below minimum wage when you add the total hours worked.”
Ah yes, you got lucky. PEOPLE SHOULD LEARN TO LUCK HARDER! Dumb fuckers. They should have lucked before they leaped.
Sarcasm aside, comparing the economy of the late 80s early 90s to post 9/11 is disingenuous at best, fucking retarded at worse. Since then companies have been quick to outsource everything possible, inflate healthcare costs through the roof, 14 years of solid war, 8X college costs, and a couple of nice recessions and stagnations to go with it.
Being a winner from 1987 – 1999 wasn’t really that hard.
“You aren’t wrong… but you aren’t right either… because the percentage of boomers who went to college is much smaller too. Boomers were building careers without college, and if you look past the lie, so were gen-x and millenials.”
Those same boomers/gen-xers now are in managerial positions, and require college degrees for just about everything these days. Hell, most companies have outsourced their entire hiring process to a third party who screens applicants with a computer program. Which sucks, because even if you lie convincingly enough to make it to an actual human, they’ll toss your shit quick when they find out you don’t have that little piece of paper saying you went to DGIAFU.
================================================
New home starts were typically 18-29 y/o in a certain economic bracket. These people drove the economy forward as they bought new homes, appliances, and cars. They had kids, which resulted in new clothes, and toys, and more appliances.
Now they have to rent because the degrees didn’t do jack, and while I frequently blow the horn of skilled labor, those jobs aren’t exactly easy to come by. (Hard to build homes for a living when nobody is buying them…).
Its been a downward trend guys, and at the core of it has been the massive deflation in real value of a degree relative to the massive inflation of its cost.
The system is designed to get people into debt, and then keep them there! You are not supposed to pay off your loans, and graduating is entirely optional. You are meant to pay 10% of your income ad infinitum, at this point its basically another tax on the middle class, and it has completely broken the back of a generation in the process.
Food costs? Seriously? My wife and I eat for a combined $7/day, and thats with fresh vegetables, healthy portions of meat, and fruit as well. (Crock pot meals, and trade for service with neighbors….all the peppers/onions/cucumbers I can eat.)
Rent? Well, tie that back into homeownership again. People can’t afford a home because they can’t afford a downpayment because their credit sucks because they were force-fed the college lie. So, they rent. The more renters, the more demand, the higher the demand, the higher the cost.
Student loans are only a piece of the puzzle, but its a pretty fucking important one.
“My wife and I eat for a combined $7/day …” ——— TPC
Not calling you a liar. But, I ain’t buying it either.
So my son turned 24 in August. He was working for Apple in a Boston suburb (making 17 bucks an hour, no college degree, self-taught). Outrageously high rents dictated he had 3 other room mates and still his portion of the rent was $850. He doesn’t own a car (insurance rates in MA go by the city, and you can assume correctly Boston rates are ridiculous if your under 25. Think $2000 for the bare minimum on a junker). Apple was generous with some benefits, like health insurance was very cheap, and they actually provided free unlimited train/subway cards for employees. But after taxes, food, rent, and his portion of electric, gas heat, and cable, he was hand-to-mouth. The store he worked in was small and didn’t really offer any advancement. He wanted a transfer, which would have required a transfer to another state, probably mid-west or CA. With no money. So, guess where he is? Yep, in my basement. Thankfully it’s a finished basement with a bathroom.
He is working somewhat for me in property management right now, and I can pay $10 an hour cash, and he is taking odd jobs too.
He has applied locally to an electronics manufacturer that is hiring and he has a good shot at the job, which would start at $15 an hour. In my town, rents for one person are pretty cheap ($500 a month) but no public transportation. Gasoline and food is fairly cheaper here too.
He lucked out because my retired parents decided to sell their summer campsite/trailer and no longer need their “summer” car and gave it to him.
He knows college is a scam and waste of time, but also realizes his past work experience puts him way ahead of certification classes, which is what most employers in his field want no matter what.
Despite him being motivated to work, I find that others his age are behind the curve compared to when I was that age. I was a restaurant manager (through experience no college in that field) and making about twice that or so, but cost of living was far less at that time. Gas was about a 1.15 a gallon, car insurance was about $1000 for a whole year full coverage, and staples like bread, milk, eggs, etc far cheaper. Rent for a two bedroom apartment including heat and hot water was $450 a month.
All of his same- or similarly-aged friends except for 2 still live at home. One of them actually has a pretty good job and makes about $40 bucks an hour, yet has little to no desire to leave the nest.
So yeah, maybe some cannot afford to leave, but there are those who are not pushed out either.
I have already told him there is a time limit on the stay, and he still has to either pay me $50 a week to live here or work it off.
Their complete lack of privacy in their personal lives translates into not caring about privacy at home. They don’t care that mom and dad are just upstairs.
On the flip side, I don’t see them as materialistic as my generation. Yes, they like the nice gaming console and computer, but that’s pretty much where it ends. They don’t care about clothes, shoes, jewelry, vacations, none of it. They are utterly unsophisticated, and are happy drinking the cheap beer and eating pizza.
But this also means zero curiosity to travel and experience the world, too.
I also find men in this age range to be completely disinterested in women. Sure, they have female friends, but that’s it. Only one of his friends even has a girlfriend. Maybe it’s the internet porn.
My generation has not really meddled at all in their personal lives, so maybe they don’t feel the need to get out and be on their own. If no one is “up their ass” about their social lives, who they date, what they watch, then why bother?
My parents were on my like white on rice until I was almost 30 even though I didn’t live at home and had a son.
@Stucky – ““My wife and I eat for a combined $7/day …” ——— TPC
Not calling you a liar. But, I ain’t buying it either.”
Midwest man. The vegetables are about half and half, store/friends. The meat is about 90% through work/friends/family, and thus, cheap.
Eggs, free. Trade for service.
You gotta get out of Jersey man, life’s better out here.
According to the below graphic, a dollar is worth a lot more to us backwoods folks.
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[img
Please note, thats just by state. I live in MO outside of the KC-metro area, and my $100 was worth about $125 in big city terms.
Do it Stucky. Move to the Midwest.
“Despite him being motivated to work, I find that others his age are behind the curve compared to when I was that age. I was a restaurant manager (through experience no college in that field) and making about twice that or so, but cost of living was far less at that time. Gas was about a 1.15 a gallon, car insurance was about $1000 for a whole year full coverage, and staples like bread, milk, eggs, etc far cheaper. Rent for a two bedroom apartment including heat and hot water was $450 a month.”
Adjusted for 3% annual inflation, those numbers 25 years ago were no higher than costs are now:
Gas $1.15 gallon = $2.25 today; annual insurance at $1,000 = $2,000 today; $450 monthly rent = $1,000 today. As far as pay, $7.00/hr = $15/hr. today.
There’s no doubt costs seem higher but everything is relative. Healthcare, education, and taxes (all the “value added” b.s. labeled “fees,” on your phone bill, property taxes, etc.), however, are higher today than 25 years ago, in some cases far higher.
The massive expansion of personal credit from the 1980s onward ran costs up, pure and simple. This in conjunction with crony capitalism, designed to put up barriers-to-entry and stifle competition, and the outsourcing of jobs overseas led to our present predicament. It was glaringly obvious in the early 2000s, when that cretinous reject in the Fed, Greenspan, cut rates 16Xs and turned homes into personal ATM machines, that the sole objective of the Fed was to keep America borrowing at all costs. All you had to do was scan the local Walmart parking lot full of Escapades and Infinitis to recognize it was going to end very badly. America was (is) addicted to debt.
The only answer is default and that’s coming. “Since the medium of exchange in a debt-backed system is debt, the only way to service a debt is with debt, and the only way this can be sustained is if the debt used to service the debt inflates by the required amount.” Put another way, our system is predicated on ever-expanding debt. When that no longer remains an option, the gig is up.
Some say we can print forever. I don’t buy it. In what financial universe has this ever worked? Certainly not here. History is littered with examples of why it hasn’t and won’t this time, either.
When default occurs, and it’ll be sooner rather than later, this generation is going to experience what their great-grandparents went through, mainly learning to live within one’s means. It’ll be a hard lesson but then this is why S&H’s book resonates so deeply: we don’t learn from history, so we’re doomed to repeat it.
I caint imagine life without Billy Jr livin in the spare bedroom. He has some funky shit goin on in there, and hell, no loans, no girlfriend, he’ll eat anything, and aside the occasional foreign object need in ter be extracted from the anus don’t need no medical.
It really ain’t that hard.
@Backtable:
some of your numbers are off. When I say $1000 for FULL COVERAGE I mean collision, glass, theft and the basic liability required by law. That same coverage for him today would be almost $3000 a year.
Rent for a two-bedroom apartment INCLUDING HEAT AND HOT WATER is now $1400 a month. I sell real estate and manage properties, I know the market. My electric bill was about 50 bucks a month. Now? lowest I have ever seen it is 275 a month. Basic cable was about $19-25 a month. Now? 55. Health insurance for me and my son was about $125 bucks a month for a decent HMO plan with $10 co-pay. Now? $800 a month with $30 co pays and a 2500 deductible I must reach before it even kicks in.
The biggest cost of living increases which have not kept up with wages is housing, particularly rentals.
I was making about 25 bucks an hour back in 1995, not 7 bucks an hour. That same $25 an hour today, which many, many people cannot even find a job in that range even after graduating college, doesn’t get you very much after taxes (which yes, you are correct those have gone up with all the BS extra crap we have to pay for).
I agree with much you have said (and it is regionally applied, some things are cheaper/more expensive depending on where you live but so are wages higher or lower) but incomes are stagnant when compared with the cost of living increases.
I have been fortunate to increase my business year-after-year, but many do not. My significant other has not seen a raise in 10 years. My ex-husband has not in 7.
TPC
— “Ah yes, you got lucky. PEOPLE SHOULD LEARN TO LUCK HARDER! Dumb fuckers. They should have lucked before they leaped.”
Trailer park/low rent apartment kid, lost count of the divorces, no financial help from parents.
Worked for divorced dad’s ultimately abandoned side business from pre-teen to teen. Worked as a grocery store sacker/checker/stocker in high school. Worked for Freightliner mopping up burned engine oil and all other nasty crap and washing 18 wheelers during summers outside of college.
While in college spent my hours not doing my class work, developing a body of self motivated self created work in a field that people NOW go into massive debt to learn but at the time there weren’t even tutorials telling you how to use the tools and entire communities dedicated to teaching every nuance. While in college took non-paying or absurdly low paying work in that side field and got to know people. First full time gig paid almost nothing. Worked 10 hours+ a day at that… then went home and worked 8-10 hours on expanding my skill set and building my body of work… living in a shitty apartment eating damn near nothing having no vehicle and bumming rides to work. No furniture, no TV, no booze, etc.
Used the body of work created in my off hours to apply for better versions of the same work, got turned down plenty, got accepted finally. Continued to make sure I was always worth more than I cost at every place I went, and consciously and pro-actively cultivated a reputation as someone that people definitely would want to work with again.
Or how about this:
Got a DUI a couple years ago. Had to do community service. By the time my 40 hours were up volunteering at Goodwill, managers were pulling to convince me to work their nights because I made their lives 1000 times easier and them look good the next day. If necessary rising up through Goodwill would be trivial… the competition is severely lacking.
— “Sarcasm aside…”
Keep thinking that everyone who gets a trophy you didn’t get got it because they were lucky and you’ll go far.
— “comparing the economy of the late 80s early 90s to post 9/11 is disingenuous at best, fucking retarded at worse.”
My graduating class walked right into the Dot Com bust. I watched as my Physics PHD friend couldn’t get a job in physics and eventually gave up and went into finance. I watched as my Civil Engineering roommate get laid off multiple times even though his companies always held onto him the longest of his co-hort and resort living off of renting out rooms for years before finally getting work again.
You may think it was all sun and roses but it wasn’t and it’s not as different as you think.
— “Since then companies have been quick to outsource everything possible inflate healthcare costs through the roof, 14 years of solid war, 8X college costs, and a couple of nice recessions and stagnations to go with it.”
ALL OF US HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT!
— “Being a winner from 1987 – 1999 wasn’t really that hard.”
Because I and everyone else haven’t had to continue to be employed from 1999 to 2015.
— “Those same boomers/gen-xers now are in managerial positions, and require college degrees for just about everything these days.”
You’re doing it wrong if that’s the wall you face. You may not like to hear this, but you are just following the herd… you can tell because they are using a herd culling technique because guess what snowflake… they have 1000 people who can do what you can do.
Perhaps you need to admit that what you are really saying is you didn’t look at the world and figure out what people needed, you went and got a degree in what you wanted and expected to find a job doing what you wanted and are now surprised that there are too many people trying to do what you wanted.
Have you considered plumbing?
— “Hell, most companies have outsourced their entire hiring process to a third party who screens applicants with a computer program. Which sucks, because even if you lie convincingly enough to make it to an actual human, they’ll toss your shit quick when they find out you don’t have that little piece of paper saying you went to DGIAFU.”
Yes, and you were stupid enough to fall for the scam and are now angry that you didn’t pick the shell with the ball under it. Better luck next time.
That’s the point. YOU took the loans.YOU followed the herd. ALL of us are dealing with a stupid economy, stupid wars, stupid everything else. You and your generation aren’t enduring them alone.
There are millenials who are millionaires, and there are gen-x and boomers who are bagging your groceries.
If student loans were like taxes I might sympathize. They aren’t… they are closer to bets on a race horse and your bet lost.
There were other paths than the college loan herd train.
I’m not proof reading this, I’ve got more luck to stumble into.
“You’re doing it wrong if that’s the wall you face. You may not like to hear this, but you are just following the herd… you can tell because they are using a herd culling technique because guess what snowflake… they have 1000 people who can do what you can do.”
I’ll pick out one piece, because your “I did it so everyone else can too!” shtick is just too darned cute.
I rather doubt it man, TPC = The Pessimistic Chemist. Last I checked there aren’t many non-degree holding chemists out there. I mean actual chemists, not the guys we train to weigh shit out while we are busy doing the math part.
As for your “bootstrap” speech….so? My own list isn’t bad (my ego isn’t as large though, so if you want to read it start searching the comment history).
There’s a lot of good stories on this website, yours isn’t special. Pull your head out of your vag and look around, you might learn something.
“I’m not proof reading this, I’ve got more luck to stumble into.”
Uh oh, I hurt his feelings. I look forward to when you tangle with someone who actually likes breaking in newbies, because that comment was fuck all nothing compared to what THEY will do to your psyche.
@TPC
To simplify it back down again… you aren’t wrong regarding the scam… but you didn’t have to play their game. It sucks you did… but anyone who is sympathetic to the idea you are in any way a victim when it comes to student loans is not your friend.
The world has never had a guaranteed path and working with people who were “college trained” to work in my field… they are of a far lower quality (and resiliency) than those who teach themselves.
@TPC
— “I rather doubt it man, TPC = The Pessimistic Chemist. Last I checked there aren’t many non-degree holding chemists out there. I mean actual chemists, not the guys we train to weigh shit out while we are busy doing the math part.”
So you’re a mediocre chemist then.
Are you suggesting there aren’t any millenials with chemistry degrees who found work? Are you suggesting you had no other choice in life except to be a chemist? What did your research into what the hiring prospects were and how you compared against them tell you?
You again miss the point: There are other paths through life. YOU wanted to be a chemist. YOU took the loans out. YOU gambled. Along with a whole herd of other people.
— “As for your “bootstrap” speech….so? My own list isn’t bad (my ego isn’t as large though, so if you want to read it start searching the comment history).”
I demonstrated that there was plenty of elbow grease that went into creating the opportunities for that luck besides “But… I got a degree?”
— “There’s a lot of good stories on this website, yours isn’t special.”
I didn’t say it was. That’s my point. A lot of people have figured it out. I don’t think I’m unique at all. YOU implied I was.
— “Pull your head out of your vag and look around, you might learn something.”
Stop assuming I’m trying to insult you and you might learn something.
— “Uh oh, I hurt his feelings.”
If you insist.
— “I look forward to when you tangle with someone who actually likes breaking in newbies, because that comment was fuck all nothing compared to what THEY will do to your psyche.”
I’ve tangled plenty around here and it was a pleasure.
“@TPC
To simplify it back down again… you aren’t wrong regarding the scam… but you didn’t have to play their game. It sucks you did… but anyone who is sympathetic to the idea you are in any way a victim when it comes to student loans is not your friend.”
Caveat emptor only takes you so far, we have things to keep financial predation in check for a reason, its all too easy to hook a lie deep in where its not likely to be uncovered for a decade or more.
Leave my personal story aside (the loans piss me off, but 4 degrees paid off in 5 years isn’t bad).
The government as a whole outsourced the jobs at the behest of a privileged few. Then, the government as a whole crammed college down everyone’s throats, insisting it was the only path. Hell, they even made it easier to attend!
Its a financial trap. Much like liar loans, sub-prime mortgages, and the most recent idiocy involving the auto industry.
This particular bubble hasn’t burst yet, but when it does its going to be a doozy, thats one of the reasons I rail on about it so hard….it pisses me off more than the others because if our government took action RIGHT NOW to ease this shit, we could save a lot of grief.
When someone trots forward and says “they deserve it because I didn’t fall for these shenanigans!”….its pointless, ya know? It changes nothing, and it sure as hell doesn’t erase the trillions of dollars of debt keeping an entire demographic under the bootheel of the government.
PS: Also, the cost ballooned wildly, quickly. It was easy to enter college paying your way with a parttime job, and then find yourself in your junion/senior year having to pull out tens of thousands of dollars to finish the degree because costs jumped double digits each year.
@razzle:
totally agree with most of your post. The 80-early 90’s were a slam dunk for anyone with charisma, a marginal degree, and a work ethic.
Now, you cannot just show up for a four-year college and expect to get a decent paying job.
Plumber? You betcha. One of my good friends who gets a lot of work from me went to a tech college. Worked as a journeyman plumber, just got his master plumber’s license. Booked solid. Has plenty of money. Ever met a poor plumber or electrician? (unless they had the “contractors curse” i.e. a pill habit).
Real estate has been good to me BECAUSE I saw the foreclosure boom writing on the wall and jumped on very early despite my first broker’s protestations (she was a traditional broker which is also going the way of the dodo).
Are foreclosures going away? Not from what I have seen, and I am in a state with a relatively low FC rate. The next wave? Reverse mortgage foreclosures. Am I on that bus? Hell yeah.
My ex-husband had the foresight to get into the wireless boom…he was installing wireless when companies that are gone (Proxim) were GIVING AWAY FREE CERTIFICATIONS because no one knew how to do it! This is a guy who barely graduated HS. Now he’s a wireless network engineer with way more experience and know-how than the guys with all the certs because he has real-life working experience.
So the bottom line is this: Drink the kool-aid and you will end up with just piss at the other end.
Realestatepup
You’re right, regionally prices do vary, sometimes significantly (e.g., Peoria v. San Francisco). I live in northwest Florida, where the the cost of living equivalent is much the same for the rural south. And you’re also right, incomes nationally, again adjusted for inflation, have basically stagnated since 1980. It used to be a single wage earner household. Then it went to two-earner households. When that didn’t cut it, debt came into the picture. A three-legged stool, so to speak.
Nowadays, wages are stagnant, people are tapped-out for debt expansion, and the last asset that provided additional credit, the home itself, isn’t a viable option anymore (in a functioning economy, it never should be). With nearly 70% of US GDP predicated on domestic consumption, I’ve often wondered just where in the HELL the Fed thought America was going to find the money to start spending again? The answer to that question lies in the fact they (TPTB/Elite) don’t live in the “real world.”
Believing this country is suddenly going to revive itself with discretionary spending is a pipe dream. We’ve way over-developed this country these last 20 years and contraction to a more realistic size is inevitable. That means significantly adjusting expectations for the near-future, and perhaps then some.
The greatest tragedy is what Jefferson warned of national debt more than two centuries ago: no generation has the right to indebt future generations for its cost of living in the present. Just look to Europe to see how this is playing out – in some regions, near 50% unemployment in youth under 30. That’s a travesty, a national disgrace for any country. Youth ARE the future and robbing them of that with national debt they didn’t run up is a crime, and the bastards that bailed out the system and were in turn also bailed out by it in 2008, are STILL collecting…and none have been jailed for it.
As a culture we’ve been steered to believe, “debts don’t matter.” Turns out they do, especially for those saddled with paying for it. I have three children. My anger stems from having watched this entire traveshamockery unfold for the last 30 years and since 2008, when it finally blew, recognizing that absolutely nothing has changed. In fact, it’s only been made worse. And nothing is going to change until it blows in even more spectacular fashion again. How can I be so sure? Easy. They’re doing the exact same things that led us into the problem in the first place and spewing hallucinogenic b.s. that any day now it’ll all come up roses.
My kids may be fine but that’s not good enough – they’ll have to live in a world that won’t be, at least not for some time to come, and THAT pisses me off because it wasn’t necessary. In the trite phrase of the day, “It is what it is,” but that doesn’t make it any easier to accept.
@ Stucky:
“My wife and I eat for a combined $7/day …” ——— TPC
Not calling you a liar. But, I ain’t buying it either.———Stucky
I feed my family of five (wife, myself and three boys ages twelve, nine and seven) for comparable numbers.
Wife buys a whole chicken for about $6 or $7 and roasts it. Add a couple of sides like rice & beans or vegetables for a couple of bucks more. There’s always plenty of meat left to be used for tacos or maybe a chicken pot pie for lunch the next day. Even after all that, the carcass will be boiled along with veggies and seasonings for chicken soup which is served as a side dish for a later meal.
She can buy a 66 oz. can of Albacore tuna at Costco for under $13. With about half the can, she makes two Tuna Pot Pies; we eat one and she freezes the other. The leftover tuna makes tuna melts the next day. Also, the tuna can be sprinkled on a salad with grated cheese, croutons, nuts or what have you, for a lighter budget friendly meal.
Spaghetti: Eight or ten bucks worth of Italian sausage, with a $4 pack of spaghetti, homemade sauce, and we feast for about $15.
She just bought a whole ham (not glued together pieces, but an entire ham) on sale for $1.99/ lb. I de-boned it and sliced it; thin slices for sandwiches, thick for ham and egg breakfasts. Rough estimate, breakfast or lunch for a family of five: $7-8
Chuck roasts are very cheap but can be tough as an old boot. Until it’s slow cooked, loooong and slooooww. They are actually very flavorful cooked this way, one of my favorites, and can be used in a variety of ways. (Tacos, anyone??)
Turkeys are cheap at Thanksgiving. Wifey stocks up and freezes, then uses them like chickens as noted above.
Meat pies (Chicken, turkey, tuna, beef) are a great, wholesome, budget meal.
Nothing goes to waste at our house. Leftovers are somehow used in subsequent meals. All plate scrapings go into the “muck bucket” and are fed to our chickens to reduce the cost of egg production.
@Dirtscratcher – We do a lot of crockpot stuff, and there is always some sort of soup/stew near the end of the cycle that sort of acts as a “catch-all’ for everything that didn’t get used previously.
I beg to differ with posters who characterize young people still living with parents as “losers”.
I believe we can all agree that our standard of living in the U.S. has dropped steeply since 1975, and the only way that we have squared the gap between dropping incomes and inflating costs, driven by the financialization of our economy since that time, is by ever-increasing household debt.
Worse, we have far fewer job niches than in that era, thanks to the loss of our manufacturing to offshore low-wage, semi-slave labor havens, and increasing automation. It really IS different this time, folks. While technological advancement between 1750 and 1990 added more jobs than it took away, our information technology really IS reducing the number of jobs available. Our economy just does not need nearly so many hands on deck.
Now that we’ve hit a wall on debt and can add no more, our population is forced to squarely confront a very nasty equation- more people for fewer jobs, and drastically dropping incomes. This means we are being forced to revert to more “traditional” household arrangements, such as multi-generational households. Go through the typical lower-middle class subdivision outside some of our most expensive cities, and count the cars parked in driveways and on the streets in front of the houses to get an idea of how many multi-family households there are, because they can no longer pay the bills without doubling up.
The one generation household headed by a young person is actually an historical anomaly, and it was not until the 20th century that it became commonplace for young marrieds, let alone young singles, to set up housekeeping in their own house. And it was extremely rare for them to actually own their own home, which was something most people weren’t able to do until they were in their late 30s, if even. It is only the prosperity conferred by an extremely advanced industrial economy, underwritten by a vast resource base, that made it possible for so many young people to live prosperous middle-class lifestyles on their own while in their 20s. My grandparents lived with my great-grandparents in the 30s, until my mom was 5 years old,even though my grand-dad had a career track job and became pretty successful by age 40. In earlier times, you and your mate usually lived with one set of parents or the other on the family farm, and aging grandparents were often under the same roof.
We might be reverting to this pattern out of necessity, and it might be very advantageous for some people. I personally don’t like it, and consider myself lucky to have been able to afford the great apartments I had in my 20s. But it is a boon for a young person starting out- a relative of mine, whose son graduated college recently, scored a great job, and has little college debt to pay off, is encouraging him to hang around until he pays it halfway down and has a nice savings account. Is that horrible? For others, a multi-generational household can mean better housing and a lower work load for everyone. It is handy for a young mother of 2 or 3 kids to have Mom or Grandma to watch them while she takes a bath or lies down for a nap after a morning of tussling with toddlers. On a farm, another grown man in the house is a boon to a man who otherwise has to handle all the heavy work himself. And it provides companionship and safety.
Chicago says: “I believe we can all agree that our standard of living in the U.S. has dropped steeply since 1975”
No sir, I do not agree. The average sheeple lives much better than in 1975. All kinds of luxuries are had by the sheeple. The difference is that in 1975 people actually had savings and only bought what they could afford.
Not so today. Today, the sheeple live a very affluent life, paid for by debt.
When the debt no longer is available, and when the jobs evaporate because there is no longer capital investment, when the infrastructure fully crumbles, THEN the real standard of living will become evident.
As Buffett said – only when the water runs out can you see who has been swimming naked. And the vast majority of Americans are swimming naked.
A couple of charts to illustrate my point:
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Home ownership as a % is up, while private debt has gone up around 250%.
Uh-oh.
Chicago also says: “we have far fewer job niches than in that era, thanks to the loss of our manufacturing to offshore low-wage, semi-slave labor havens, and increasing automation. ”
That is true enough – but it needs to be said that manufacturing is a cooked goose simply due to automation. It is over, fini, the end. It will continue down, and it will never rebound. What has been squandered has been that opportunity that presented itself when the US was the world powerhouse.
That was the time to invest in the future. To not spend on welfare and government drones, but to spend on infrastructure, to demand that kids were educated, to invest in new tech and the future. But no, the opportunity was wasted.
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That chart seems to indicate we have spent tens of trillions of dollars on welfare over the last few decades. Add in the cost of government drones and the amount is perhaps, what, $100 TRILLION fucking dollars that could have been invested in the future.
Can you imagine what the situation would have been if that capital was INVESTED instead of spent on the Free Shit Army and on drones? And if the sheeple had not borrowed tens of trillions more?
We would not now be talking about China, India, etc. as threats. They would be bowing at the feet of the US. The entire world future would be different. Perhaps the entire energy issue could have been dealt with. Perhaps cancer could have been defeated. Etc ad naseum.
The opportunity to change the future of the entire human race for the better has been lost. It was quite possibly a one time only opportunity.
And we fucked it up.
That masterpiece above was by me. Hold the applause, just throw money.
@TPC
— “(the loans piss me off, but 4 degrees paid off in 5 years isn’t bad).”
No, that’s astounding actually. *thumbs up!*
People don’t have sympathy when a person goes into debt to become an actor or musician…. because it’s understood it is a large group of people competing for a small pool of options.
The same isn’t as well communicated regarding careers in chemistry, physics, etc… but it’s the same circumstance. It certainly sucks that outsourcing, government favoritism, etc is a factor… just like it has sucked when new inventions put people out of jobs. This is planet earth.
— “When someone trots forward and says “they deserve it because I didn’t fall for these shenanigans!”….its pointless, ya know?
I wouldn’t necessarily deserve… but I also am not going to put people burdened with student loans anywhere near my ACTUAL bucket of victims.
— “It changes nothing, and it sure as hell doesn’t erase the trillions of dollars of debt keeping an entire demographic under the bootheel of the government.”
It contributes to the proof through action that people don’t have to follow the college program to build a life and career…. and it stops pussyfooting around people treating them like children to be protected from the reality that “Yes… sometimes your plans or even entire way of life might be disrupted on this planet and it will NEVER be fair when it happens”.
Sounds like you actually turned out ok? Upset at the cost of the loans… but you knew the cost going in right? You knew you were going to be going up against millions of other graduates in the same field with millions more every year entering the field… AND a connected world?
Anyways, as I mentioned earlier my point isn’t to insult you… at all. However we are all dealing with the problems you mentioned and though you were sold one of the biggest lies regarding the college scam… you also had access to one of the biggest tools to figure out if you were being hoodwinked or at least have a firm understanding of what you were getting into to avoid being surprised.
Take care… I’ve got some train riding to do and will be unlikely to engage again for a couple of days unless I sneak some in tomorrow morning. 🙂
Razzle says to TPC “Anyways, as I mentioned earlier my point isn’t to insult you…”
Razzle – that is simply unacceptable on TBP. The point in these things is to insult them. TPC can take it. He has thick skin. Insult away.
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“Sounds like you actually turned out ok? Upset at the cost of the loans… but you knew the cost going in right?”
Knew the cost? I feel like you are horribly out of tune with how that cost jumps around….
Anyways,
“Razzle says to TPC “Anyways, as I mentioned earlier my point isn’t to insult you…”
Razzle – that is simply unacceptable on TBP. The point in these things is to insult them. TPC can take it. He has thick skin. Insult away. ”
This is the most accurate thing said in the entire thread.
He got riled up pretty easily earlier on guys, I think we have something to work with!
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TPC ,I’m glad you are finally growing up.All this time you complained about your student loans I thought you were just a big pussy.Now I see you can take a punch.Good job.
llpoh says:
Razzle says to TPC “Anyways, as I mentioned earlier my point isn’t to insult you…”
Razzle – that is simply unacceptable on TBP. The point in these things is to insult them. TPC can take it. He has thick skin. Insult away.
Everything I know about insulting folks, I learned from bb.
bb – That was a borderline coherent thought from you. Holy shit.
@TPC
— “Knew the cost? I feel like you are horribly out of tune with how that cost jumps around….”
Except for the part where I detected the problem and dropped that gold digging college before she could take me for all I was worth.
I guess the answer is no, you didn’t understand the fixed costs and variable costs.
— “He got riled up pretty easily earlier on guys, I think we have something to work with!”
I have a feeling you simply haven’t been around the threads I have until this one.
By emphasizing I wasn’t trying to insult you, I insulted you. 😉
@llpoh
— “that is simply unacceptable on TBP. The point in these things is to insult them. TPC can take it. He has thick skin. Insult away. ”
Fine.
TPC… we don’t need more chemists spending their careers designing food additives to cover the garbage other chemists are designing to kill us so other chemists can design pills to kill us. You might as well work for Unit 731.
“TPC… we don’t need more chemists spending their careers designing food additives to cover the garbage other chemists are designing to kill us so other chemists can design pills to kill us. You might as well work for Unit 731.”
Blow me.
Just one example:
Me: 29 year old male, white, not retarded (arguably)
Situation: I worked an electrical apprentice gig in South Florida for $10/hr a couple years back. I got to talking with a older guy from New York in his 60s with over 30 years experience and he said that he used to make $150K a year ( 70k on the books and 70k off). Now he is making $13/hour.
Another guy I ran into on the job site in his mid 50’s, told me that in the 1990’s he was making $25/hour doing drywall work. Today, he is making $15/hr as an on-site manager and the same job he did back then is being done for $10-12/hour.
I have other examples that essentially mirror these stories. There’s a ton of people out there that are making 1/2 of what they used to 20 years ago, even though they’re way more experienced. The labor market is flooded with desperate beggars that will take anything they’re offered.
razzle, don’t mess with TPC
Where the hell is Maggie in all this? When it comes ter havin a total loser offspring suckin off yer teat til he’s way past 20 she’s the expert. Good gawd that boy uh hers aint ever movin out. If he was in bed with a tijuana hooker he’s say sorry but I need ter finish mah math. When Maggie don’t press his polyester slacks just right he yells at her and smears shit all in his hair, well, that’s conjecture based on mah experience with Billy Jr.
Maggie, it’s time to kick that loser to the curb.
No need to drag fambly into this, BW. I’m surprised chirrens services hasn’t taken your boy away.