Libertarian Drivers…

Guest Post by Eric Peters

Libertarians are individualists. That means – among other things – we don’t collectivize people.

Libertarians don’t like collective (“one-size-fits-all”) traffic laws.

Why punish a driver who drives faster than you (or some government apparatchik) feels appropriate? Maybe that driver is a better, more experienced driver than you are and so is comfortable driving at a higher speed than you are comfortable driving.

And, competent to do so.

It may feel “too fast” for you, but that doesn’t mean it is “too fast” … objectively speaking.

Laws – much less punishment – shouldn’t be based on feelings.

So what would be an objective criteria?

Loss of control.

If the driver skids off the road or causes an accident then – objectively – he was not in control of his vehicle; he was obviously driving too fast for conditions, or above his skill, or the capabilities of his vehicle.speeeeeding

It’s hard to argue otherwise.

If, on the other hand, the driver doesn’t lose control then – on the face of it – he was in control of his vehicle. It’s harder to make an objective case that he was driving “too fast.”

Illegally fast, perhaps. But objectively “too fast”? Absent loss of control, that’s just an opinion.

A feeling

About what might happen rather than what actually has happened. 

And feelings and “mights” – as far as Libertarians are concerned – don’t justify punishing people. In fact, Libertarians oppose punishing people for anything. Instead, they support holding people responsible – but only for things (harms) they’ve actually caused.

As opposed to laws broken – or feelings hurt.vince-vaughn-quote

This is a foreign concept to most people – who have been conditioned to define “right” and “wrong” as being synonymous with “legal” and “illegal.” This conditioning is one of the essential underpinnings of authority – which is the pre-requisite for getting people to accept the bit and yoke of government.

Libertarians take a different tack.

To them, an action is morally wrong only if it causes harm to someone else or their property. But if an action hasn’t caused anyone any harm, then it isn’t morally wrong.  It might be unwise or not something you would choose to do yourself, but since no harm to others has been caused,  forbidding it (much less punishing it) would be a moral wrong. Because then, you (the government, authority) would be causing harm to that person, a person who had not harmed anyone himself.

Things such as “failing to come to a complete stop,” not “buckling up for safety,” having tinted windows, making a right turn on red – even “running” a red light – these are are not moral affronts. They are violations of law – but that is not a moral question, absent harm caused.

You may not like that people do these things, but you haven’t got the moral right to impose harm (i.e., punish) people who have not harmed you.

Even if they might harm themselves.rules-and-regulations

Some people don’t ride or like motorcycles – and think it’s “crazy” to ride one. They are entitled to their opinion. But they aren’t entitled to force their views on motorcyclists who choose to ride.

With – or without – a helmet.

Same goes for things like “speeding,” which is a purely arbitrary construct – driving faster than other people feel you ought to drive, or the law allows. It doesn’t rise to the level of a moral wrong – as such – if no one’s been harmed.   

Driving is an inherently individualistic activity. We each have our own pace, destination and timeframe.

It isn’t a moral failing to drive faster – or slower – than others. The moral failing is refusing to accommodate others who prefer to drive faster or slower than you prefer. 

Libertarians have their own honorific for such people. They are Cloversmove-lead

People who don’t care whether you’ve harmed anyone; only whether you genuflected before The Law – which they reverence almost like a savage reverences a totem pole. (Read more about them here. )

This form of intellectual savagery is necessary, not for “safety” – but to gin up the social pressure necessary to impose a one-size-fits-all regime on everyone.

If people began to think as individuals, there would be trouble.

The Libertarian way is to not think in terms of collectives and one-size-fits-all. Nor in terms of punishing people. Libertarians have this crazy notion…

Live – and let live.

blinker  

On the road, this entails much more than yielding to faster-moving traffic (and not bullying slower-moving traffic). It entails consideration and anticipation.

Example: You notice a fast-moving car coming up behind you (because you use your rearview mirror). You move right – if that lane is open – so the other driver can continue on his way uninterrupted.

Example: You are driving on a road with two travel lanes. There are other drivers waiting to merge from side streets on your right. You can see them up ahead. If you do see them, help them by moving over to the left lane (if it’s open and you can) so that the right/merge lane is free.

Example: You are waiting at a red light, with a left turn lane adjacent. Pull your car forward so as to close the gap between your car and the car ahead – so that cars behind you can pull into the turn lane.

It’s not “the law” but it is the morally right thing to do.clover

Libertarians are sometimes accused of being “selfish” – but doesn’t that word apply more fittingly to people who refuse to yield to faster-moving traffic? Who take no notice of other drivers and make no move to ease their passage, even when to do so would involve almost no effort and certainly no harm to them? Who deliberately ignore them – or purposely impede them?  

Libertarians are sometimes accused of being irresponsible – “anything goes!” – but the all-important qualifier – provided no one is harmed – is always left out.

Libertarians are all for people who cause harm being held fully responsible for the harms they cause. But they are just as forcefully opposed to harming people who’ve harmed no one.

Regardless of “the law.”

 

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36 Comments
Anonymous
Anonymous
October 26, 2016 7:35 am

It seems Libertarian drivers claim the law should apply to others, just not themselves.

Like, as in this article, when they gripe about slow drivers and apparently want rules applied to them for their own Libertarian benefit but don’t want rules applied to themselves for others benefit.

Or when they don’t want to wear a helmet on a motorcycle but don’t mind putting someone else at risk of a vehicular homicide or manslaughter charge in a minor accident that would be no danger to anyone in a car but gets them killed by a head injury that wouldn’t have happened with a helmet.

Fortunately, Libertarians don’t run things.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Anonymous
October 26, 2016 12:48 pm

are you fuckin retarded?
a libertarian court would rule in favor of the other person if the libertine motorcycle decided to not wear a helmet…
or maybe the other party would have also done something moronic but there would be an actual trial about it instead of just shoving you down the administrative law hole ASAP
and the affronted party would have to be affronted enough to claim damages.

but sure, lets just make as many individual innocuous actions as possible 100% reprehensible instead.

with the self driving cars movement, it won’t be long before it will be ILLEGAL TO HAVE YOUR HANDS ON THE WHEEL.
oh how I wait for the squeals then

Anonymous
Anonymous
October 26, 2016 8:04 am

I’ve read other posts by Peters. This asshole just wants to drive his Mustang as fast as possible. Love to read a story where Eric Peters, the ‘speedy Libertarian’ wrapped his car around a tree.

Credit
Credit
October 26, 2016 8:10 am

libertarian – just another label used to confine/ control personal philosophy. i will dance with libertarianism because i like its tits, but i won’t marry just for tits. the helmetless libertarian who crashes his motorcycle quickly becomes a collectivist when in need of physical therapy and disability checks provided by others.

starfcker the deplorable
starfcker the deplorable
  Credit
October 26, 2016 9:08 am

Credit, it would happen quicker than that, when he desperately needs the collectivist EMT’s to come scrape him up and take him to the collectivist hospital. I’m the opposite of a road rage driver. It’s a video game to me, i’m 360 degree aware and traffic barely slows me down. We haul ass down here, in Eric’s defense, Virginia is a whole different deal.

Overthecliff
Overthecliff
  Credit
October 26, 2016 9:09 pm

Thumbs up, Credit, but you just scratched the surface. What if that dummy killed someone crash into a vehicle because he was going “to fast”. Libertarians need to stop smoking weed and come back down to earth.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
October 26, 2016 8:19 am

I’m generally of a libertarian mindset at all times except when I’m behind the wheel. Behind the wheel I become every tyrannical dictator that ever lived rolled into one. My life’s dream is to have a very high caliber gun/cannon on what ever I’m driving just to vaporize the asswipes driving 5-10 under, riding in the left lane for eternity and trying to squeeze in when the assholes KNEW damn well that they needed to be in MY lane five miles back. I give no quarter!

I’m not an asshole about it though. I go out of my way daily to drive back roads, side roads, alleys or whatever it takes to avoid encountering the morons in the first place. Even when I can’t do that I’m usually in defensive driver mode so I just let it kill me slowly rather than pull out my gun and murder the assholes on the spot.

TC
TC
October 26, 2016 8:23 am

Tough crowd today. I agree with most of the article. Had to think about the stop light thing a bit though.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
October 26, 2016 8:35 am

In the UK some members of the crotch rocket club liked to drive the Motorways (Interstate equivalent) at ludicrous speeds. On two occasions I got passed by motorcycles going so fast that 1. I never had the slightest idea they were even there. 2. I was only aware of a very loud, yet exceedingly short doppler effect sound as they blew by me at ludicrous speed. 3. All I ever saw was a nondescript blur AFTER being startled by the curious sound of ludicrous speed. All it would have taken was a momentary bobble on my part towards their lane and the last thing to go through their mind would have been their asshole. No contact even needed. That’s how Peter’s will end up. How many he takes with him is open to debate.

Firesign
Firesign
October 26, 2016 9:15 am

Min-anarchists suck.
Ya’ll.

Stucky
Stucky
October 26, 2016 10:06 am

Sure, let’s just abolish all traffic laws.

If I want to drive 85mph in a school zone and no one gets hurt, what’s the big deal.

EP gives “Libertarian” a bad name.

daddysteve
daddysteve
  Stucky
October 26, 2016 10:46 am

So the only reason you don’t drive 85 in a school zone is because the sign says you can’t?

Stucky
Stucky
  daddysteve
October 26, 2016 11:00 am

No. I don’t drive 85 in a school zone because I know children can dart out into the street at anytime. I know children aren’t as cautious as adults. Children aren’t fully responsible for their actions. And, so on.

In other words, I have a fucken brain , as you do also, which informs us that 85mph in a school zone is insanely stupid.

HOWEVER, many many people do not have a brain. Just look at all the Hillary voters. And, feral utes. Laws are needed because of those dumbfuks.

Hey, if everyone was like you and me we wouldn’t need any fucken laws at all. But, they’re not, are they?

daddysteve
daddysteve
  Stucky
October 26, 2016 11:51 am

“Somebody might” is a lame arguement .

daddysteve
daddysteve
  daddysteve
October 26, 2016 12:26 pm

The nanny state is good at shielding us from our responsibilities until we can’t survive without shielding.

Firesign
Firesign
  Stucky
October 26, 2016 11:57 am

Stucky,
You give TBP a bad name.

daddysteve
daddysteve
October 26, 2016 10:10 am

Those EMT’s sucked the blood out of my property for their pensions. God damn right they can come scrape me up whether I’m wearing a helmet or not.

Credit
Credit
  daddysteve
October 26, 2016 10:27 am

chicken or egg. the base cause of your tax increase is directly attributed to a non-free market $10, 000 ride to the hospital, a collectivism expense no sane individual would pay for in a free market.
i know 2 EMTs making $12/hour at the same time.

daddysteve
daddysteve
October 26, 2016 10:36 am

Someone might abuse a gun. Let’s have gun laws….it’s for the children.
Someone might abuse drugs. More laws….it’s for the children.
Your child might not be educated properly. Laws…it’s for the children.
Who can argue against vaccination? It’s for the children.
Got to have a drivers license because that proves you are competent to drive. It’s for the children.
Got to have a business license because….I’m not sure but it’s for the children.
I don’t care what the posted speed limit is , you better teach your kids not to run out in the street.

Firesign
Firesign
  daddysteve
October 26, 2016 12:05 pm

I abused a gun once…
I had great balls of fire.

Gayle
Gayle
October 26, 2016 11:12 am

Traffic laws are not about morals. They are about odds.

Odds are, if you run a stop sign, you are going to hit another car, whose driver assumed it was safe to enter the intersection (I know about this because I was the one t-boned a few months ago by a driver who in Peter’s view committed an immoral act only because the outcome did not work in her favor. She must have been a libertarian, because she did not feel she had a moral obligation to obey the law to carry auto insurance either. And she did not feel a moral obligation to tell me, her victim, at the scene that she did not have insurance. She knew she carried Geico but “couldn’t find her policy number.”)

I assume a good libertarian would cheerfully accept all the consequences accrued because his or her moral views conflict with laws they choose to ignore. But what if I had been killed?

daddysteve
daddysteve
  Gayle
October 26, 2016 11:55 am

Lucky the authorities put that stop sign there because…..

Firesign
Firesign
  Gayle
October 26, 2016 12:16 pm

” Traffic laws are not about morals.”

Everything is about morals, even the ideas about telling a person how they should live according to some stupid idea of a social contract. Ever hard of the NAP?

BUCKHED
BUCKHED
October 26, 2016 12:27 pm

The laws that give me a bad taste are those in which there is no victim…no victim…no crime .

The other is the douche bag building inspectors and the county offices that run them . I own 60 acres in the country. I should be able to get up one morning,plans tucked under my arm,head to Home Depot with a supply list and build a building on MY PROPERTY without permission from the county .

starfcker the deplorable
starfcker the deplorable
  BUCKHED
October 26, 2016 1:25 pm

Buckhed, in Florida, with an ag exemption on your property, you get to do just that. Design it, build it, enjoy it. No drones needed.

Overthecliff
Overthecliff
  starfcker the deplorable
October 26, 2016 9:15 pm

Stucky gives TBP a bad name???????wtf!

Anonymous
Anonymous
October 26, 2016 12:58 pm

to people who are defending the laws here with the case of “but stupid people, lack of stop signs can be abused so we can’t have that”
TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW OUR CURRENT LAWS ARE IMMUNE TO ABUSE

Stucky
Stucky
October 26, 2016 2:00 pm

I think Libertarian-ism is a good idea.

Well, correction, I thought it was a good idea. Then I read this thread.

Now I’m thinking they’re mentally unstable.

YEAH, BABY!! LET’S BAN TRAFFIC LAWS!!!! IF IT FEELS GOOD TO YA … like, driving through a red light … THEN DO IT!! I just wanna be free —FREEEE!!!!

Fucken maroons.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
  Stucky
October 26, 2016 10:29 pm

Stucky, Firesign and daddysteve are as clueless as Peters. I used to ride along with a friend who drove a wrecker in SC. Every single day the effects of people ignoring the laws was quite evident. Every single week we encountered at least one fatality as a result of dumb asses like Peters. More often that not it was some innocent guy that got creamed rather than the moron. One moron got his though in a particularly gruesome way when he exited the roadway in an old 70’s era battle tank of car at ludicrous speed. He hit a tree, drivers door first, which ripped the front and rear of the car completely off leaving just the drivers door and passenger door wrapped around the tree with him as the meat in the car door sandwich. I laughed. At least he only killed himself. We had to go back and pick up the roll back truck because the state patrol never told us the car was ripped in two.

the tumbleweed
the tumbleweed
October 26, 2016 2:18 pm

This article belongs back in 2012, when we were all a little more naive and still high on freeze-dry salesman Ron Paul.

Organized Libertarianism seems to fall apart in two main ways. The first is the crazy extremes they go to when defining “harm,” coupled with the suspension of common sense. For example, in this article the author would argue that a motorist doing 100 MPH on an interstate designed and graded for max speeds of about 80 MPH, while all other cars is doing the same is doing no harm. Wrong. The motorist is greatly increasing the odds of a collision. If the interstates had been designed as the Autobahn then he could go 100+ with relative ease. On Monday the speed demon flies down the highway and nothing happens. He gets to his destination 10 minutes earlier. Libertarianism for the win! On Tuesday the speed demon kills himself and 4 recent high school graduates on their way to college. It’s ok though, because his estate will be forced to make restitution to their estate. Libertarianism for the win! Not.

The same with the mega pet peeves of Libertarianism, seat belt and helmet laws. It takes one second to put on a seat belt. This in most cases prevents you from becoming a missile in an accident and harming others. It may prevent the roadway from becoming clogged with ambulances and forensic investigators. The same goes to a lesser extent for the motorcycle helmet.

At the same time as Big L Libertarians argue that seat belt laws cause great harm, they give degenerates of all kinds exemption from causing any kind of harm. “If it doesn’t harm you they are free to do it,” says the hipster bearded thrift store Libertarian. Sorry, but a bunch of homosexuals marching down Main Street wearing next to nothing and engaging in sex acts harms me. Homeless people cooking, eating, drinking, shitting, and pissing in every public park harm me. Hordes of non-English speaking invaders crossing the border in search of welfare benefits and jobs, in that order, harm me.

Yet the Libertarian denies any of these harm society. In fact, they would extend similar protection to a disgusting cadre of society’s fringe elements. Homosexuals, transgenders, the homeless, nudists, polyamorists, refugees, drug addicts, drug dealers, pedophiles, pornographers — these people would all be given free reign to run amuck in the Libtopia, with the weak caveat that they not set foot upon your property or invade your personal space.

Which brings me to the second great failure of organized Libertarianism, and the most important. It’s inability and/or unwillingness to account for IQ differentials in human beings. This lack of understanding was what really held me back for the roughly five years I subscribed to the philosophy. I imagine most reading this blog have IQs in the triple digits, and many over 120. It is difficult for us to imagine what life is like for our counterparts on the other end of the IQ scale. It takes a lot of work and imagination (Stefan Molyneux was the one that helped with this, btw) to realize that the bulk of the world functions very differently than intelligent people.

You will never, never, be able to explain the value of the Non Aggression Principle to someone with an 80 IQ. You will never be able to teach a 65 IQ Somalian refugee the importance of property rights. Morals are constructs of the high IQ. Low IQ individuals lack future time orientation, and are essentially opportunists doing at the given moment whatever suits them. Low IQ individuals know that knocking off a liquor store is wrong because “it’s against the law.” They really don’t understand why it’s morally wrong. And they never will.

And in this way, Libertarianism fails mightily, because it essentially borrows the leftist philosophy of “we are all the same.” No, we’re not. Not even close.

Stucky
Stucky
  the tumbleweed
October 26, 2016 5:08 pm

Extremely well stated.

Looks like Libertarians are hovering here waiting to thumb down. I never knew they were such whining little pussies.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  the tumbleweed
October 27, 2016 3:47 am

“”Morals are constructs of the high IQ. Low IQ individuals lack future time orientation, and are essentially opportunists doing at the given moment whatever suits them. Low IQ individuals know that knocking off a liquor store is wrong because “it’s against the law.” They really don’t understand why it’s morally wrong. And they never will.””

I dont think you quite get what is morally wrong about this either.
anytime someone tries to bring up IQ as an argument… idiocy is hiding in the wings for sure..

Anonymous
Anonymous
October 26, 2016 2:36 pm

the show The Wire sums it up perfectly.
the only true source of power in this chain is the cop on the beat, he alone was given the power of discretion on enforcement.
laws are fine when enforcement is discretionary. the fucking irony of this whole bodycam cop cameras thing is that it forces the cop to act one way… his discretion is overruled by the mob of armchair cops. essentially rendering his own skill of profession meaningless. its no surprise many borderline cops have stopped giving a moral fuck

daddysteve
daddysteve
October 26, 2016 3:39 pm

They say most men don’t want freedom , the best they hope for is a just master.
Electing one is always a difficult proposition.

Anonymous
Anonymous
October 26, 2016 4:58 pm

Ever driven in Mexican traffic

That would be a Libertarian’s dream, or so it seems from this article.

Stucky
Stucky
October 27, 2016 10:26 am

“Stucky, Firesign and daddysteve are as clueless as Peters …”
——- I_S

Concerning me …. what the goddamned fuck are you talking about?????

I think Peters is nuts concerning this topic. So, exactly WHY am I clueless??

End the Fed!!!