Guest Post by Grace Country Pastor
It was suggested last week that I submit an article to the Platform. Seems as if I’ve raised a hackle or two on the backs of a few “big dogs” around these parts. Challenge accepted. I love dogs… 🙂 One might consider this an odd title for an opening salvo and in a way it is (hat tip to HF); why would I make a case against myself? Most every true Christian I meet, and every single “CINO” believes they have very strong arguments against the Jesus Christ I teach. Right away, some of you say, huh? “The Jesus Christ” I teach… as if there were more than one? Hold on right here.
If as a reader you are not interested in the things of scripture, this piece isn’t for you. Move on. There is a ton of amazing information to read daily here on TBP. I wish I had time to take it all in. I could learn many things about some subjects I’m not very much in tune with (investing for one – buy high, sell low, right?). If, on the other hand you have any interest in knowing more about Christ, I’d urge you to continue on.
There is a lot of meat gonna be served up and not much milk. I take scripture exceeding seriously as I believe is evident in my comments to many of the outstanding articles and commenters here. I believe understanding scripture is the key to understanding literally everything (past, present and future). Paul writes…
2 Cor 11:3-4… “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER spirit, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”
What does Paul mean when he speaks of “another” Jesus, “another” Spirit, “another” gospel? Do these words not imply that there is “another” triune Godhead of some sort? More than one gospel? Of course there can only be one true God in reality. Creation requires only one Creator. Anything else diminishes Him and He becomes something He is not.
1 John 5:7… “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.”
The Word being God manifest in human in flesh, Christ Himself.
John 1:1-3, 14… “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
Paul is speaking of the subtle art of deception which satan employed against the mother of us all, Eve. Satan asks of her (paraphrasing) ”did God really say/mean what He said?” ALL scriptural (religious) confusion begins here. If God does not say what He means and mean what He says, and, if people do not have access to what God says, then knowledge of His truth is impossible. Man (satan) is free to make things up as he goes (and that’s what he does). The preaching of Jesus NOT according to the truth of what God clearly says is rampant the world over. All true Christians would agree that it is Christ’s blood shed on our behalf and His subsequent resurrection from the dead that satisfactorily atones for mans sin. Without this firm conviction a man or woman is simply not Christian no matter how they might identify “personally” with Jesus. If I therefore preached a message that failed to contain the shed blood of Christ, I, in effect would be preaching “another” Jesus. If I preached a Jesus that required law keeping (and there is one… see the red letters in most bibles); I’d be the one the Apostle Paul warned you about. Let me be more specific and say something the vast majority of you have never heard (save perhaps from my comments here)… I preach Jesus Christ according to the mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul. I do not preach Jesus Christ according to prophesy as do the vast majority of churches. I do this because Jesus Christ revealed information to the Apostle Paul that He did not reveal to any other man nor angel prior to His appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts chapter 9. Not to Peter, James or John; not Michael or Gabriel… It is this specific information that demonstrates to man that he can be saved from the punishment of sin for all eternity by simply believing what God says about what He did on our behalf; the cross-work of Christ. Things were not always this way (feel free to object). Paul writes…
Rom 16:25-27… “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to MY GOSPEL, and THE PREACHING OF Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY, which was KEPT SECRET since the world began, BUT NOW is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to ALL NATIONS for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.”
A little about myself before I continue. Without knowing my testimony of salvation you really have no reason whatsoever to listen to anything I have to say. Most pastors and preachers I have known personally have been unsaved and therefore, not Christian. There’s some cognitive dissonance for ya. I am 55 years old. I began to read the Bible in earnest at age 45 as alcohol was getting the better of me; and, after a very tumultuous two years, got saved at age 47. A Methodist pastor had me studying the four “gospel” accounts of Jesus life and earthly ministry and I knew for sure there was no way I was going to heaven. The four books contain absolutely terrifying words and they literally scared the hell out of me. The sermon on the mount is meant to be taken literally. Christ was not kidding; nor was He allegorizing. He tells us specifically when He does and He wasn’t in that sermon. Does your eye or hand offend you? How many cheeks have you turned of late and thus indignities suffered gladly?
A church split brought my wife and I to a little Baptist church where we both heard the gospel of the grace of God clearly presented and knew right then and there what had already been done on our behalf. Christ took my place on the cross I where I deserved to hang! I so clearly remember singing “Victory In Jesus” as I’ve never before (or ever since…) had the ability to sing! To have learned that everything I was trying to do had been done by the Lord and was offered to me as a gift, lifted a crushing burden from my very weak shoulders. It was all written right there in the book of Romans. I just needed someone to point to it and say LOOK HERE, WHAT DOES IT SAY?
There are two “main” types of churches in the world… the church of “do” and the church of “done”. I had been in the church of “do” all my life and nothing ever got “done”. I am a son, a brother, a friend, a student, an entrepreneur, a husband, a father, a wannabe farmer, a grandfather (of three weeks!), a pastor of a small group of grace believers (akin to herding cats, I say lovingly…) and a member of Christ’s body. I’ve been self employed all my adult life; sometimes quite successfully and other times, not so much. I live in McKinney, Texas on a 7 acre micro-farm that I am trying to build. Veggies, chickens, cows and hogs this spring. I live with my wife of 30 years; my recently married daughter, her husband and my newborn granddaughter; a Great Dane named Moose, a Beagle named Tucker Bean and a Siamese cat named Snowman. My son and his best buddy live in my neighbors rented cottage 3/4’s of a mile down a little country road. I’ve both succeeded in life and I’ve failed miserably… I continue to press on as I am stubborn as a mule in that regard. I will make things work in my own way or I will die trying. With a new business venture straight ahead (ice cream with booze in it – Woohoo!) I feel very positive about the future provided the world does not collapse around us, but it is what it is and will be what it will be. Planning for collapse is no plan at all however; while preparing for the inevitable “turning” most certainly is. And prepare we do; physically and spiritually. Although I realize the unbelievably fragile nature of our existence at this moment in time, I remain an honest and absolute optimist. Though I see things in this world which daily upset me greatly, I know what my eternal future holds and it is glorious. I also know how to combat those upsetting things. Thus, come what may here in this world, good or bad, I am ready for my trip into the next. On one hand I pray that God calls His ambassadors home quickly as that is where I long to be; on the other I hope He tarries long, as there are so many here that need to hear Christ’s amazing gospel.
A few months back a reader on TBP emailed me privately that he was interested in some of the things I was saying about the Lord; things he had not previously heard. He sent me an article from the “Bible” based website www.GotQuestions.org. It was an article attacking the “mid-Acts dispensational” position I hold so tightly and speak so loudly. He asked that I take it apart piece by piece and refute the things that it was saying about my specifically Pauline theology. It makes A Case Against GCP and although long, with Mr. Quinn’s patience and permission, I reprint it here for this audiences perusal and hopefully in depth discussion. I invite any of you to attack, question or support my beliefs and to make your own Case Against GCP if you will. I know that the things I say are very uncommon and to many, unnerving. That’s all right. I will do my best to keep these verses in mind as I attempt to answer your comments, if any, to the best of my ability. I’m not afraid to say “I don’t know” if I don’t.
2 Tim 2:24-26… “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
My goal on TBP is not to toot my own horn and demonstrate my “advanced” Bible knowledge as some may unfortunately believe. My goal is to be bold as instructed and preach the stunningly phenomenal, simple, yet seemingly endlessly complex gospel news that has the power to save eternal souls permanently. I know full well that infuriates some. Oh well. Fact of the matter, TBP is a place where such can still be voiced and thus heard; thoughts argued and hopefully more efficiently organized in heads. A place where perhaps some learning among adults might occur. Rare, that…
Rom 1:16… “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
I’ve been saved for 8 years, I’ve learned all the Bible I have learned in that relatively short period of time. I’ve received no pastoral degrees from colleges or seminaries which churn out business majors destined to run church-corporations in the multi-billion dollar a year industry which is churchianity; nor am I ordained by anyone but the Holy Spirit Himself to speak the things I speak, as are all saved Christians. I am not paid one red or green cent to do what I do; that is to study and speak. There is no tithe today. I am owed nothing. On the contrary, I owe everything. It’s my honor to share His words with others. I am no more or less special than any other soul on Gods green earth. I am not the brightest light in the Platform’s night sky and if I can see what the Bible clearly says, anyone can (if they choose to). But there is someone who very strongly opposes the words I and many others have discovered since Paul, inspired by God Himself, wrote them down. What I teach is not taught in very many churches at all… even the churches of “done”. It is his ultimate embarrassment; his ultimate defeat in this world and in the heavenly places. He hates Paul in particular with a very purple passion. And no, it’s not Stucky I speak of.
The Bible says far more than the vast majority give it credit for. Grace and peace freely offered are so much more than the vast majority even remotely appreciate. The love our Creator has for us is beyond my ability to truly comprehend. We live in the most incredible and exciting epoch in the history of the world. God our Creator’s fully revealed will for mankind is made available to any and all who want it. A 2,000 year pause in the 70 week prophetic time clock at the end of week 69…! A mystery revealed. A new creature put back in the image of pre-fallen Adam, in Christ. Christ’s physical body on earth.
Eph 1:17… “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”
Unlike Israels past and future physical blessings and curses (95% of the Bibles text), God blesses us freely, spiritually… with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places (Pauls epistles, Eph 1:3 specifically).
2 Cor 4:7… “But we have this treasure (saved people are members of His body, joint heirs with Him, He who created everything – that treasure) in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”
The earthen vessels are our physical bodies, blessed with incredible spiritual truths we need to be aware of. The power is not ours, it is Gods. Christ tells us of these things via Paul. We are not Job, who, suffering terribly at the hands of satan (with Gods permission), cries out to God (whom he mistakenly believes to be his adversary…!)…
Job 31:35-36… “Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire is, that the Almighty would answer me, and that mine adversary had written a book. Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, and bind it as a crown to me.”
…we have the book y’all!!! And most ignore or belittle it. We simply need to learn HOW to read it; to rightly divide it between prophesy and mystery. Then, all things become clear. Paul writes, for very good reason:
2 Tim 2:7… “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.”
I say… consider what Paul says very carefully. You’ll be stunned at what is revealed.
The article “Doctrinal Attacks Answered” follows… Take your time (it’s gonna take some…) read; and fire at will. No matter how long it takes, I will reply to any and all honest queries.
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A brother asked me to read and reply to an article attacking the mid-Acts Pauline doctrine I attempt to explain on this (my own) website. Here is a link to it in its entirety from the website “GotQuestions.org”. I will go over it line by line hopefully demonstrating, with contextual rightly divided scripture, its failure and inconsistencies. This is a long but not exhaustive post. I encourage any who have specific questions to post them here or on the “Got Bible Questions” page for direct answers. Quotations in italics are taken directly from the article.
What is mid-Acts dispensationalism?
First sentence… “Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes various ages, or dispensations, ordained by God to order the affairs of the world.” Okay, so far so good, I can work with that. The word dispensation is used four times in the Bible (King James only of course – I wonder why?) all in the epistles of Paul (1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25). Each time it is used, with one exception, Paul is speaking of something given specifically to him. The one exception is in reference to a future dispensation; that of “the fullness of times”. The other three directly reference some “good news” committed unto him by God. A “gospel” in Biblical terms; for the word gospel simply means good news or “joyful message” according to Webster’s 1828 dictionary.
The word dispensation also carries with it the idea of a transfer of one thing to another. A dispensary is a place or store where medicine and medical advise is given (dispensed) for free. God therefore has given Paul a joyful message that was, prior to Paul’s knowledge of it (simple logic) unknown. It was a “mystery”, a secret hid in God until the “mystery” was revealed to Paul.
Ephesians 3:3-4… “How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)“
Galatians 1:11-12… “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.“
Also indicated is an aspect of time as well as “change” of some sort. The dispensation of the fullness of times clearly refers to a point in time somewhere in the future. The words “but now” (as we shall see) also directly indicate a change (of something) over time. Simple example; I used to be in my 40’s but now am in my 50’s. My own age changed over time. Back to the article…
“Classic dispensationalism sees seven dispensations, starting with the age of innocence in the Garden of Eden and ending with the age of the millennial kingdom.” I’m not going to argue how many dispensations may or may not be. Perhaps in a future post. Suffice to say that we mid-Acts believers do see separate and distinct dispensations in the Bible where God dealt with man in a certain specific way in time and then deals with us in a different way; the author argues this position to be false. Using the above definition of dispensation and a little basic logic let’s look at a scriptural example.
Romans 3:20-21… “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;“
Examining this verse we can see a change taking place. Whereas at one point in time some people (Israel) were required to follow Gods Law to achieve righteousness in His sight… “BUT NOW” (somehow) Gods righteousness is made available without the law. Something changed over time. In the past the nation Israel was required to keep the law. The old covenant IS law keeping via human effort. God the Father taught it to the Israelites who struggled mightily with it; Jesus Christ in the 4 accounts of His earthly ministry taught it to the 12 apostles. The believing Jews were doing it (supernaturally empowered) in the book of Acts (the New Testament actualized). The words Paul writes however (unless one is willfully ignorant or using corrupt “bible” translations) state clearly that Gods righteousness is NOW available without law keeping; and, that the law itself and the prophets that substantiated it were themselves witness to the change in terms.
Back to the article… “The current age, called the age of grace or the church age, is held by most dispensationalists to have begun in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost. At that time, the Holy Spirit came upon the believers and empowered them to fulfill the Great Commission, the church age began.” There are many “Acts 2” dispensationalists. C. I. Scofield is likely the most famous due to the “reference Bible” he annotated. Here is where mid-Acts begin to break away from the Acts 2 position. See also my response to James Perloffregarding his issues with the Scofield Bible. Author continues… “However, mid-Acts dispensationalism sees that event as still part of the dispensation of Law; the “church” in the first part of Acts was a Jewish congregation under Jewish rules, not the church of the church age. According to mid-Acts dispensationalism, the church began with the ministry of the apostle Paul in either Acts 9 (Paul’s conversion) or Acts 13 (Paul’s first missionary journey).“
This is a fair representation of the mid-Acts position (Acts 9 makes sense to this believer as Paul “straightway” preached Christ in the synagogues – Acts 9:20). Pentecost is first and foremost a Jewish holy day. Webster’s 1828… 1) “A solemn festival of the Jews, so called because celebrated on the fiftieth day after the 16’th of Nisan, which was the second day of the passover. It was called the feast of weeks, because it was celebrated seven weeks after the passover. It was instituted to oblige the people to repair to the temple of the Lord to acknowledge His absolute dominion over the country, and offer Him the first fruits of their harvest; also that they might call to mind and give thanks to God for the law which He had given them at Sinai on the fiftieth day of their departure from Egypt.” 2) “Whitsuntide, a solemn feast of the church, held in commemoration of the decent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles (Acts 2).”
One has to wonder where “whitsuntide” found its origins because it is certainly not located in the Bible. I found this online… “First recorded in 1175, Whitsuntide is from the Middle English word whitsone(n)tide.” “The seventh Sunday after Easter.” “Easter celebrated on the first Sunday after the full moon that occurs on or just after the vernal equinox.” Because we all know that’s “precisely” when Jesus was resurrected… the first Sunday after the first full moon past the spring equinox. Yea, right…
Looking at Webster’s second definition, it seems as if our religionist friends have once again created a compilation of Jewish plus pagan ritual to construct some amalgam they deem “Christianity”. A “solemn feast of the church”… which church would that be? It can only be Jewish if one is to believe the Bible. Who is our audience in Acts 2? Who is Peter addressing?
Acts 2:5… “And there were dwelling at Jerusalem JEWS, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.“
Acts 2:14… “But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:“
Our audience is clearly made of Jewish men of every nationality. Not to get way off track chasing “holiday” rabbits but it is apparent that anything which is occurring in Acts chapter 2 has everything to do with Jewishness and not what many today call Christianity. Jews recognized the prophesied Jewish Messiah. Therefore the “Acts 2 dispensational” position has serious problems from the very beginning if it wants to include the Jerusalem church in the body of Christ. These “Kingdom saints” have as yet unfulfilled prophesy to fulfill. They cannot be members of the church which is His body; they belong to the earthly Kingdom yet to come. There are also no holy days according to the mid-Acts perspective. Why would a non-Jew include himself in such activity? Paul is clear on these things.
Colossians 2:16-17… “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.“
Author writes… “Classical dispensationalism sees a biblical distinction between Israel and the church; mid-Acts dispensationalism takes it further, separating the Jewish congregation in Acts 1—8 from the Gentile church (the body of Christ) from then on.“
The distinction “classical dispensationalism” makes is that it transforms the Jewish believers into something other than Jewish (this is what pentecostal types call Christianity). That Peter and the 11 (and all the Jews with them) upon believing in Jesus left their Jewish religion and were “converted” to “Christianity”. There is no Biblical basis whatsoever for believing this. These were clearly Jewish men waiting for and finding their Jewish Messiah who showed up at exactly the prophesied time according to the book of Daniel. Clearly there is a difference between Israel and the church, but there is no difference between Israel and the Jerusalem church as the Jerusalem church WAS (believing) Israel. That church (called out assembly) which Jesus called “the little flock” (Luke 12:32). Clearly there is a Jewish church taking care of religious business in the Jewish temple; Peter preaches a murder indictment to them and compels them to repent of their evil deed (Acts 2:22-24, and 37-38). What makes people today (Acts 2 dispensationalists, pentecostals, methodists, baptists, catholics, etc…) think that these men “changed religions” rather than remaining true to their Jewish roots? Examine this scene in the latter chapters of Acts where Paul and James are speaking.
Acts 21:18-21… “And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
These men are still zealous of the law, walking after the “customs”; another word for customs is “traditions” and there’s a ton of trouble waiting in the wings of tradition as tradition remains for its own sake, not necessarily that of realities sake. If the church the body of Christ began in Acts 2, where is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in the shed blood of Christ alone? These thousands of believers, James included are following the law! Mid-Acts does indeed “take it further” and rightly separates out that which took place in Jerusalem from that which took place with Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul was hunting these Jewish believers in Christ down to capture and kill them. Paul is the one who scattered the multitudes from Jerusalem; but the apostles remained faithful to what Christ commanded and stayed in Jerusalem. Paul is the one who winds up going out into the world of heathen like me preaching NOT the Kingdom at hand as the 12 were commanded (Matthew 24:14), but the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24)!
Author writes… “According to mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement, the apostles Peter, James, John, and the rest were still operating under the Old Covenant in Acts 1—8.” This statement is flat out wrong. The apostles were operating under the New Covenant/Testament. The OT says man must obey the law to gain righteousness with God. Didn’t work out so well for man. The NT says that God will put His Spirit within the believer and CAUSE him to be able to follow the law (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27, and Hebrews 8:7-11). The author makes the grave mistake of assuming that there is either the OT or the NT in effect at any given time. He misses completely the mystery given to Paul which in essence is NO TESTAMENT whatsoever. The essential nature of grace alone through faith alone is that there are no covenant agreements between man and God at all. Grace is a freely offered gift which men can either freely accept or reject. The mid-Acts position recognizes the “mystery” time period (hidden wisdom – that which was unknown before Paul) between old and new testaments. The OT came to an end, the NT began to happen in early Acts. What the NT’s continuation was dependent upon is ALL Israel recognizing their Messiah which they failed to do; thus was the full implementation of the NT suspended. They were to be a nation of priests to the rest of the world (Exodus 19:5-6). Instead they killed their Messiah (Emmanuel – God in flesh) and God set the nation (temporarily) aside in order to do something new with Paul. But now…
Author writes… “They were still dutifully keeping the Law and still meeting as a Jewish body in Jerusalem. Peter and the other apostles preached repentance to Israel, but there was no church until Paul.” Though the author believes this to be fallacy, this is absolutely correct. God empowered them to keep the law and to perform miracles and they remained with the circumcision (the Jews) in Jerusalem (Galatians 2:7-9). They were a “church” but they were not the church, the body of Christ. A church is a called out assembly of people. Called out for what purpose? The Jerusalem church was called out to administer Gods earthly Kingdom. The church which is His body is called out to take up positions in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3).
He continues… “It was Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11:13), to whom the doctrine of the church—and the doctrine of grace—was revealed. It was only after Paul began to minister that the church actually began.” And that is exactly correct. So why does he believe this to be incorrect? His next statement follows the old vs. new testament confusion. “Thus, the only parts of the New Testament that are applicable to believers today are the Pauline Epistles. The rest of the Bible was written for Israel.” While it’s true Paul’s epistles are instructions for today’s church while the Hebrew epistles are not; and yes, both at the same time ALL the Bible (all scripture – 2 Timothy 3:16) is for our learning. The critical mistake the author makes here is that he divides the Bible where Bible publishers divide it, not where God divides it. The Pauline epistles are “No Testament” books. The New Testament does NOT begin in Matthew chapter 1 where Jesus is “born”. It begins with the death of the testator, ends in Acts 28:28 and picks up again post “rapture” (when God eventually rescinds His offer of free grace) in the book of Hebrews…
Hebrews 9:16-17… “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.“
…and the testator, Jesus Christ does not die until the end of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. When the author claims that the only parts of the NT “section” of the Bible which are for todays church are the Pauline epistles he is correctly identifying the mid-Acts position; but he wrongly believes the NT begins where publishing companies (including those who publish KJB’s) say it does. There is a page in every Bible after Malachi and before Matthew which in bold letters reads New Testament. THAT IS WRONG. A gross oversimplification at least. A satanic deception at worst.
Author makes broad and unsubstantiated claims here I’d encourage any to follow up with challenges. “There are some other problems with mid-Acts dispensationalism. In particular, its views on salvation, water baptism, and the church’s origin are based on misunderstandings of some points of Scripture.” And what might these problems be? Please demonstrate what exactly it is I am misunderstanding. Scripture please.
1.Salvation – trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as complete and total payment for sin. See Simple Salvation.
2.Water baptism – ritual cleansing for Jewish priests before entering into priestly duties. Spend some time “here“.
3.Churches origin – Paul. 1 Tim 1:15-16… “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
The article states… “Mid-Acts dispensationalism wrongly assumes that Paul’s revelation about the church equals the beginning of the church itself.” Recall how we defined a dispensation please. If what God told Paul about the mystery church had never before been revealed; had it been a secret hid in God since the beginning of the world (it was), how could this NOT be the beginning of something new? The nature of a mystery is that no one knows it. It is a secret. It is hidden… until the secret is revealed; in this case, until God revealed the contents of it to Paul. Recall the words BUT NOW… is the author mindless or perhaps just agenda driven?
1 Corinthians 2:7-8… “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, EVEN THE HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.“
Col 1:25-26… “Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HID from ages and from generations, BUT NOW is made manifest to his saints:“
Romans 16:25-27… “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, BUT NOW is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.”
It gets better… “Mid-Acts dispensationalism misinterprets Galatians 2:7, “I [Paul] had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.”“
It’s actually the authors perverted bible which does the disservice here. The KJB reads crystal clear.
Galatians 2:7… “But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;“
A single distorted etherial unidentifiable “gospel” in the former. Two clearly different gospel messages to two different groups of people in the later. “Things that are different cannot be the same.” This is why the King James only issue is so critical and so fiercely opposed by so many. The truth is deliberately obscured in “modern” bible versions and expounded perfectly clearly in the KJB. The last thing in the world satan wants a man to know is the mystery revealed to Paul because it demonstrates satan’s utter downfall and Gods perfect manifold wisdom.
Colossians 2:15… “And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.“
Ephesians 3:9-12… “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: TO THE INTENT THAT NOW UNTO THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS IN HEAVENLY PLACES MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.“
“The mid-Acts dispensationalist makes a distinction between a “gospel of circumcision,” taught by Peter, and a “gospel of uncircumcision,” taught by Paul. In reality, Paul is referring to different audiences, not different gospels.“
We do make the distinction because the Bible makes the distinction. Your “bible” distorts it. Get a copy of Gods Word and study it. You might learn something satan does not want you to know. Something that will alter your understanding of everything.
“The Jews whom Peter ministered to were saved by grace through faith, just as the Gentiles to whom Paul ministered.“
Is that why they were still zealous of the law in Acts 21??? Come on man… All are saved by grace through faith but some (the Jews) have works accompanying that faith. What is a covenant at all? It is an if/then contract entered into by two or more parties. If you do “A”, then I’ll do “B”. OT and NT in a nutshell. Grace alone through faith alone by the blood alone is exactly NOT an if/then covenant agreement. It is a gift!
“Mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement denies the need for water baptism for believers, thus ignoring Jesus’ command in Matthew 28:19.“
Exactly, we do deny the need because Jesus was teaching the law to priestly Israel in Matthew 28-19. The mystery had not yet been revealed to Paul. Some very special abilities follow that water baptism in this time period.
Mark 16:15-18… “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Did the author acquire such abilities after his water baptism? Show me a man that has and I’ll show you a liar.
Just above, author states that Jews were saved by grace through faith just as believers are today. Then why is baptism required? That is a work a man might boast in (Ephesians 2:8-9). They were only to go to the rest of the world AFTER they finished up in their own backyard! There is an order to be followed. Jerusalem first as they were a nation of priests!
Acts 1:8… “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.“
Examine Pater’s own words… the final written record of his speaking in the book of Acts.
Acts 15:11… “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” Shall be… Peter is expecting salvation to come in the future which makes perfect sense when we read about “enduring to the end” (Matthew 24:13) and hoping to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you” (1 Peter 1:13). Israel’s national salvation is a future occurrence (Acts 3:19-21).
“They exclude water baptism on the basis that the baptism of the Spirit, which occurs at salvation, has replaced water baptism.“
Exactly, and here is why. We are not priests that require cleansing. Christ’s shed blood has made me clean! How can water possibly compare?
Ephesians 4:5… “One Lord, one faith, ONE baptism,“
Which would ANYONE prefer, water or Holy Spirit? I’ll stay dry thank you very much and thank God He does the baptizing for me. You religionists keep your water baptism. Better yet, follow Paul as Christ commands.
1 Corinthians 1:17… “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” God the Father sent John the Baptist to water baptize; Christ did send forth Peter and the 11 to water baptize (prepare) a nation of priests. Even though Paul water baptized a few, that was not his specific commission as the above verse clearly states.
“Mid-Acts dispensationalism overlooks the fact that Gentiles were part of the early church before Paul was converted. Acts 2:10–11 makes it clear that the crowd listening to Peter preach on the Day of Pentecost included Gentile proselytes to Judaism.“
We overlook nothing. A Gentile who converts to Judaism becomes what exactly? How about (wait for it, here it comes…) he becomes a Jew. Therefore Peter was preaching to JEWS in the JEWISH TEMPLE.
“And Acts 8 shows how Samaritans and an Ethiopian were baptized into Christ before Paul ever started preaching the doctrine of the church or of grace.“
Many people were “in Christ” before Christ began the mystery church with Paul. People can be “in Christ” according to prophecy, as the Jews were; or we can be “in Christ” via the mystery as Paul
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enough of getting raptured up non-sense and the shoes left behind….it’s a mid 1800’s concocted fantasy by john darby
Based on what? How did he come to his conclusions? Ad hominem.
Plus, I trust no man about this. The KJV is my final authority on ALL things. And if you take the time to STUDY (2 Tim. 2:15) rather than read, you will find great treasures that await you.
Amen, Soup!
You give John Darby waaay too much credit, as do many. Mid 1800’s? Try a little 2,000 year old Paul instead (he ages so well)… 1 Thes 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:49-53. The dispensation of the law came to an end with him and the dispensation of grace began.
Eph 3:2… “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:”
Have you? It is the translation of the church (his redeemed physical body on earth, all saved – as Enoch and Elijah were (Heb 11:5), or is this nonsense too?) which closes this current epoch to usher in some very troubling times for the unbelieving world. You don’t want to be here.
Shoes left behind? Now you’re talking hollywood…
Speaking of shoes left behind, Ivan:
– Hey, new shoes?
– They were a surprise
– A surprise?
– Yes! Every once in a while she surprises me with a gift she hides under the bed. Last week she got me this shirt.
Excellent article GCP. Personally, studying the KJV Bible and simply believing what it said, in context, led me to the same understanding you have reached. It is now clear as day to me. While studying the Bible I was compelled to construct a time line, in order to better understand its’ unfolding history. Then I found resources that had already constructed these time lines and this helped tremendously. The Bible contains distinct patterns and milestones in its’ history, which we can uncover, if we study and allow ourselves to see and believe them. The religious system, for the most part, views these patterns through a glass, darkly and confuses people.
Thank you sir.
“It is now clear as day to me.”
When once seen it can never be unseen and everything changes.
“The Bible contains distinct patterns and milestones in its’ history, which we can uncover, if we study and allow ourselves to see and believe them. The religious system, for the most part, views these patterns through a glass, darkly and confuses people.”
Ain’t that the truth!?!
If I had a hammer….
The Bible is an interesting back story, some good points, some not good at all(the doctrine of the Atonement for example is the worst). If you really want to hear Jesus speak in words you can understand, there’s only one place for that – The Urantia Book.
Only because the atonement as taught in most churches has no resemblance to the atonement as taught in the pages of the Bible.
For one, it was never for the purpose of satisfying God’s justice by the bloody death of an innocent so His wrath could be appeased. The atonement is where God became a man so He could conquer death’s power over man. That by entering into death with us He could conquer death by the resurrection.
The atonement for sin is that God removed the law so sin no longer had dominion over Israelites who were under the law. And for Gentiles who have never been accountable to the law He defeated death so we could know Him. Leaving our idols behind to trust in the true God for eternal life.
Blessings:-}
I vote for the done. I was driving to work today and I was thinking to look up a question in my mind. The first commandment and freedom. The tithe question is a freebie, thank you for going into that. Always, when you ask a question, the lord gives you even more revelation.
I was invited out or dis-invited from church because of the tithe. It was heavily promoted from the first time I went to the last time. I consider it as buying the stairway, it won’t work. It’s almost a Catholic thing that Carlin mocks viciously.
I said recently that we all get a well deserved ass whipping sooner or later. It’s proof of God’s love. There are many God deniers here. I ask how they explain their awareness. Mere flesh cannot create a spirit, intelligence or self-awareness. All the computational power of a computer network will not give it self-awareness anymore than laws make corporations into people.
But I am digressing. Thank you for answering my question. The only quibble I have is your conflating satan with man. If the bible is true as you say, then satan is an entity apart from man; he is the enemy of man. Man is the heir of the estate satan lost.
“The only quibble I have is your conflating satan with man.”
Can you point me in the direction of the quibble? Perhaps I can clear it up.
“If the bible is true as you say, then satan is an entity apart from man; he is the enemy of man.”
satan is an entity apart from man (Ezekiel 28:13-15), he is the enemy of man (Acts 13:10), the father of lies (John 8:44). he has convinced (most) men that he is god as was his plan from the beginning (Isaiah 14:12-14). he is subtle and thus exceptionally dangerous (2 Cor 11:3).
Appreciate your thoughts El Coyote.
El Coyote-Serious Mode: I go a kick outta that ! Even when he’s ‘serious’, he does so in a way that can bring a smile…….Not trying to speak for him, but maybe he refers to this:.” Man (satan) is free to make things up as he goes (and that’s what he does). ” Located in about the ninth paragraph. I backed up when I read it, but soon moved on considering it to be a slight in proper syntax (which I am no authority on). I considered (avoiding the ass/u/me word) it to mean BOTH man AND satan……
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum-My guess is that ‘Coyote’ will be out roaming, stop by, and sniff it out for himself….none the less, I stuck my nose in.
You would be correct in your (non) assumption sir ordo… 😉
Thank you for the clarification, I’m not good at math. In English, a parenthetical comment refers to the previous subject, according to my third grade teacher.
For example: Double Dees (Maggie) will show up to tell us how she was almost seduced, like Eve, by an Anaconda.
Am late but I will try.
I do not know why this old post opened on my phone this morning.
It must be a SIGN.
Well this interesting read clears things up for me. No longer am I struggling Christian, but rather headed straight to hell according to the good pastor. You know Valhalla always sounded way nicer than heaven, so all is good except for my late Mom’s dissapointment. Then again her being an old school Lutheran, she probably didn’t make the pearly gated cut either.
Evangelicals might be the worst thing to ever happen to Christianity. Amazing given the gay Catholic priest scandal.
“No longer am I struggling Christian, but rather headed straight to hell according to the good pastor.”
Huge, huge statement! This is step one on the way to heaven. I was there too (dang was it fugly) and I thank God for the realization. The question now remains… where do you go from here Marian?
Romans 3-8 KJB… please. Oh, and I ain’t all that “good” either.
Rom 3:12… “They are ALL gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
All includes me. But God did something about our awful condition…
Rom 5:8… “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
My daughter was in 3rd or 4th grade when she asked what a lesbian was. Then she lowered her head in disappointment. Then I’m a lesbian, she said, because I like girls. I have to call her up to remind her. I always love to remind her of dumb things she said. It’s why I love her so much. I recall one time she offered me a cure for sadness, she said I should try some candy she had in her hand, “it makes you happy.”
There is this caramel fudge from the northern tier that contains happiness.
Debating the finer points of religion has always seemed a fool’s errand to me. Without the involvement of The Holy Spirit, all discourse is set at naught.
How many versions (not to be confused with translations) of The Holy bible are floating around out there these days? Hundreds? Thousands?
https://www.answers.com/Q/How_many_versions_of_the_Bible_are_there
Which one do you subscribe (preach out of) to? More than one? If so, why?
This isn’t a personal attack. I’m just in the habit of knowing WHERE the information I’m having preached at me actually comes from.
I was saved at age 8. I preached my first sermon at age 10. Then life herded me down the hoot owl trail. I was sent out as a sheep among wolves. I did my time in the wilderness being tempted. I earned my scars. I did better than some and worse than others. I have been forged, as iron is forged. I therefore have an inherent distrust of other’s interpretation of Scripture by virtue of experience as well as discernment.
“I therefore have an inherent distrust of other’s interpretation of Scripture by virtue of experience as well as discernment.”
Outstanding! King James. A transliteration from the Textus Receptus. Don’t believe a word I say, believe what the Bible says. I try to back everything I say with scripture and if I can’t, I keep my mouth shut. I’m not right, the Bible is.
Always good to find an honest broker. The Truth will set us free, but it is Prudence that keeps us from stumbling on the path.
“Sooner or later, Neo, you’re going to discover that there is a difference between knowing the path…and walking the path” – Morpheus, The Matrix
Sound advice in any Age.
The KJV writers used the same texts for their version as translators in our age. Why do Christians like GCP think those translators of this 1611 were somehow “more special, more learned, more numerous, more disciplined, more spirit-filled” in their production? Agree with Irish Lord, discussion of these finer points just tends to cloud the simplicity of the gospel: we are sinners, God is Holy, works are as filthy rags, Jesus conquered sin and death for all on the cross, we receive God’s mercy and love through faith in Jesus.
“The KJV writers used the same texts for their version as translators in our age.”
Simply not true. The confusion wrought because of it can be seen in all over Christianity in the various denominations throughout the world. Read up on the “majority text” and the “minority text”. The textus receptus and the textus vaticanus.
There is a universe of difference which clouds the simplicity of the gospel. Can one be saved or not? Let’s look at two versions of the same very important verse.
1 Cor 1:18 (KJB)… “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
1 Cor 1:18 (NIV)… “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
If that don’t make you wonder… Is salvation actual, something we possess; or is it a process?
I always sensed a tone of the agrarian in your comments. There’s a lot of theology to unpack, I’ll save that for later tonight, but the biography was very enjoyable. There’s nothing like having your family around you working in common purpose to help you really find your place in the world.
Thank you sir! I’ll look forward to your thoughts… 🙂
It seems as if the article “Doctrinal Attacks Answered” was somehow cut off mid stream. Perhaps mid-rushing tide is a more apt analogy…
Here is the bottom half beginning where the above leaves off. Perhaps admin might amend? I thank you very much for posting what I’ve written.
————————————————————————–
Many people were “in Christ” before Christ began the mystery church with Paul. People can be “in Christ” according to prophecy, as the Jews were; or we can be “in Christ” via the mystery as Paul (our pattern) and anyone who hereafter believed was. There are two overarching programs both of which are “in Christ” in effect. Gods earthly program involving the nation Israel and the Gentile nations who bless them; and His heavenly program which involves the church which is His body. Both the heaven and the earth are fallen. Both require redemption “in Christ”. God has both fully under control.
“Thus there was a joint church body of Jews and Gentiles before Paul began his ministry.“
This is accurate but misleading as the author simply want to mash all the people together under one unspecified mish-mash “gospel”. Any Gentiles who either became Jews or pledged allegiance to Israel according to Gods prophetic instruction could be included in this church. There were a few. This does not mean the Jerusalem church and the body are all the same church. It isn’t. Jerusalem was a church with a different purpose than the church of believers which exist today. They had super powers… we do not. They had those powers in order to enable them to endure to the end of the great tribulation. They are going to need them; things are going to get really ugly.
Genesis 12:1-3… “Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: AND I WILL BLESS THEM THAT BLESS THEE, AND CURSE HIM THAT CURSETH THEE: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.“
Cornelius in Acts 10 would be the best example of such a one. He blessed the nation by giving much alms to the people and prayed to God alway. He understood his position under the nation Israel as did the samaritan women that Jesus called a dog (Mat 15:22-28). She too understood her place beneath Israel and the Lord blessed her accordingly.
“Most importantly, mid-Acts dispensationalism or the Grace Movement claims there are “different gospels,” one taught by Peter and one taught by Paul. But the Old Testament (and the first part of the New Testament) does not teach salvation by works; the Jews in Galilee were not saved a different way from the Gentiles in Achaia.“
There are many different gospels in the Bible. Abraham has one referencing Genesis 12 in Galatians 3:8. Your “bible” intentionally obscures them that you (author) misunderstand that which satan least of all wants you to understand… the mystery revealed to Paul. To say that the OT does not teach salvation with works is beyond ignorant. It is dishonest. There was 600 plus points of the law to keep and sacrifices to be made if one failed. At the end of the day, this author is not a Bible believer. He’s not even all that bright. He’s an agenda driven religionist who wants people to keep paying tithes to a priest class he himself supports. Religion is just another way for man to control other men.
Galatians 5:1… “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.“
Christ died to free us from the law instituted to prove to man that he is a hopeless sinner who can’t possibly keep it. There is nothing a man can do to earn his salvation. Not baptism, not law keeping, not praying certain prayers, not anything. Such an article demonstrates beyond doubt that we all need to study the right Bible rightly divided or confusion at least, damnation at worst, will be the result.
“Mid-Acts dispensationalism is opposed to several elements of orthodoxy.“
We are opposed to all of “orthodox religion” actually. We simply believe what the Bible says, to whom it says it. Bible Christianity is the 100% absence of religion… religion defined as that which a man does to either please God or assuage His anger.
“Its downplaying of half of the New Testament, its unwarranted exclusion of early Jewish believers from the body of Christ, its disregard of water baptism, and its allowance for a faith-plus-works gospel make the Grace Movement an unbiblical view.“
Not downplaying as all scripture is for our learning, merely identifying to whom it was written. For example, who was James writing to?
James 1:1… “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO THE TWELVE TRIBES WHICH ARE SCATTERED ABROAD, greeting.“
I assume the author is not a member of a Jewish tribe scattered by Paul. The early Jewish believers have their own prophesies and an earthly program which yet remain unfulfilled. They have no business in the heavenly church which is His body. We have Gods specific promises to us and they have the specific promises God made to them. We need to learn the difference between the two. That most people do not know the difference is why there are so many “Christian” denominations and such Biblical confusion in the world.
Matthew 19:28… “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.“
The twelve Jewish apostles to the twelve Jewish tribes of Israel will sit on twelve Jewish thrones in the New Jewish Jerusalem come from heaven to earth, judging those same twelve Jewish tribes who collectively will be the worlds priest class at some point in history’s future. Today’s believers go to heaven to be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Heaven comes to earth “as it is in heaven” to Israel in the future.
We absolutely disregard water baptism as either an aspect of works based salvation or a means of glorifying the flesh which Christ has spiritually crucified (Galatians 2:20, and 6:13). And finally, to say that we allow for works based salvation is just plain idiotic and dishonest when everything we actually say is counter to exactly that. I will leave works based salvation to those the author would prefer we listen to: Jesus, James, Peter and John…
Luke 18:18-22… “And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Jesus preaches commandment keeping and He commands the wealthy man to sell all that he has and distribute to the poor. Does author “follow Christ” by commandment keeping and willful poverty? I thought not…
James 2:24… “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” Paul says the exact opposite in Romans 4:1-5 establishing the mid-Acts position of grace through faith WITHOUT works. Author should re-check his own work and his own thoughts.
1 Peter 1:13… “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;” Read that one again. The grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. That’s a future event. Mid-Acts teaches that we have that grace now – without works or endurance till the end (Romans 5:11).
1 Peter 2:12… “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, THEY MAY BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, GLORIFY GOD IN THE DAY OF VISITATION.” In the body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Galatians 3:28). Why is Peter speaking to Gentiles? Perhaps it is because he is a JEW. Why do they do good works? That the Gentiles might glorify God through them.
2 Peter 2:20-21… “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” Does that sound remotely like the condition-less eternal salvation mid-Acts teaches? We are COMPLETE in Christ, needing nothing else (Colossians 2:9-10). He did it all for us. We are tangled up in an evil world, and Christ has delivered us from it (Galatians 1:4).
1 John 1:7… “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” IF we walk… that is a conditional statement and thus implies works. In this case “walking in the light”. For, IF we fail to walk in the light, THEN darkness awaits, as we are not cleansed from sin. That is works based salvation.
1 John 2:3… “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” What else does John need to say to complete my argument? Author simply desires to make the mid-Acts position look bad and by doing so, only demonstrates his own ignorance of scripture.
I will close this very long yet still not exhaustive post with two last verses. The first is a verse of warning, the second of admonition. I warn you of Bible teachers in general, myself included though I hope to be helpful. It is you dear reader who must be persuaded in your own mind what is truth (Romans 14:5). No one will stand before God in your place. He wrote a book for each and every person to read and comprehend. Not one of us should listen exclusively to what any man says the Bible says. We need to open the book and let it read us while we read it. Bible study is interaction with the living Holy Spirit of God. That’s as monumental as it gets in this world.
Colossians 2:8… “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
2 Timothy 2:15… “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.“
YIKES!
Total words —–> 6,974
Bible references AND accompanying text ——> 28 references / 1,317 words
Addition Bible references ——> I stopped counting at 40.
============================
Someone out there kind enough to give me a one or two sentence summary? And is it worth slogging through? TIA
Gladly, happily and without reservation!
John 3:
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Mick, Stucky is trolling you. The guy has the equivalent of a PhD in theology. Proceed with caution.
Ask and ye shall receive. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps he does, but you can assume by his own words that he doesn’t subscribe to any of it. Even Satan quotes Scripture when he thinks it will play to his advantage.
You don’t know me. You don’t know what I subscribe to, and what I don’t. But, be judgemental is one of the greatest strengths of most Christians, so I do understand where you are coming from.
I like how you implied than I am similar to Satan. Really, I do. I don’t deserve such honor. StuchenSatan at your service.
I’m right in the middle of a huge book on the history of castles based in no small part to an article some cranky guy from NJ once posted. I hadn’t really given castles much thought since 6th grade, but you never know what might catch someone’s attention and lead them to research further.
So there’s that.
To me, the Bible — in most places –reads like a piece of literature. I mean Christ taught in parables. Are there truths to be garnered from it? Most certainly. Are there indisputable and clearly demarcated doctrines and historical indicators that emerge from it? I have no idea. I have tried to make sense of it for a very long time within and without formal church contexts. I always run into magnificent beauty; opaque mystery; and sometimes what appear to be contradictions. Are we to follow Christ’s example of passive nonviolent resistance to falsehood and evil (even unto death)? Or do we flip tables and expel money changers from the temple? These are two completely different (and seemingly incompatible) modes of dealing with desecrators. Which do we follow? I would especially like to know in light of the ever increasing environment of political tyranny and violence. I would like to know what “render unto Caesar” means? Does this passage legitimize state authority? It certainly seems to especially if you read on from that short passage. Or does it mean something else—something more in line with “thou shalt not steal or kill”? Seeming contradiction like these may just mean I am not bright enough to grasp the big picture or they may be chinks in the armor of believe-ability. I have always been a black and white guy and yet there seem to be so many shades of gray. This song kind of captures my conversation with God these days:
I agree with your words, Morn, but your music video was immediately closed and rejected. That musician sold out and chastised normies w his denunciation of DJT & MAGA.
Music is his religion, and IMO, he is no longer creative or relevant. In music, theology, or in particular, social justice cause / narrative. He’s off my radar. A has been.
Last time I posted that guy’s Jungleland, because the title fit the theme of my comment, I caught more flak than a bomber in WWII.
I dwell on good lyrics in many tunes that resonate well, especially if the musicians have rare, creative talents overlaying great words.
But,
If lyrics are read into, then it’s sometimes tough to appreciate just letting the music do the talking.
– A big reason I’m fond of many instrumental pieces; classical in particular.
“I caught more flak than a bomber in WWII.” LOL!
A Swedish pilot recounts his experiences over the skies of 1944 Berlin…”As we neared our target the sky became filled with flak and fighters. There were Fokkers in front of me, Fokkers behind me and Fokkers above me…and every one of those Fokkers was flying a Messerschmidt!”
He sold out way before “he who pees in a golden toilet” took office. And I boycotted him for a long time too because he couldn’t keep his mouth shut on politics. But in doing so I missed a couple of pretty sweet albums (Magic being one of them). I would have to disagree that he is no longer creative or relevant. He is a master of combination: music (across a full range of instruments (just listen to the harmonica and trumpet in the posted video), lyrics, soul (emerging from the internal struggle), connection with band members and audience as well as being a savvy businessman. That being said I hated the Broadway show. It brought out a very unsavory and uncomfortable arrogance; a dickishness one might say. But I still appreciate what he is good at-reluctantly.
The ground is obviously shifting under your feet, I would suggest you move to a more stable area. What can you observe from a moving vehicle with much detail?
In better words, please refer to GCP’s comment about unsaved pastors. These are folks who have still got a veil over their eyes, sort of like you have.
I will be kind and not submit a verse but I will paraphrase one, the words are revealed to those who should receive it, everybody else will only be confused.
There’s a good example of this in the story of Paul’s fall, he heard the Lord’s voice, the others only heard thunder.
Where is the terra firma and how do you lift off the veil? You make is sound like it is a state of mind almost. I could be wrong, but the post above (yours and his) seems terribly gnostic. And maybe that is not necessarily bad. It is just not a concrete answer.
Terra firma is the rock upon which a person should build his house. The scales come off when you are invested with, here I will leave it up to GCP, suffice it to say – it isn’t the Urim and Thummin.
Born to Morn… “These are two completely different (and seemingly incompatible) modes of dealing with desecrators. Which do we follow?”
This right here is the million dollar question. Let’s see if I can do this in a small nutshell.
Gen 1:1… “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
You mention two completely different seemingly incompatible modes… well, heaven and earth are two completely different modes as well. In the beginning God created two things, heaven and earth. By way of satan and man, both realms are fallen and both require redemption back to God in Christ. Christ is the foundation upon which two different “buildings” are being constructed in the Bible. Again, keeping things very simple, Peter is building one and Paul is building the other.
Peter builds that which deals with the earthly realm. He was given the keys to “thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven”. That which was prophesied since the beginning of the world. 95% of your KJB deals with this subject and Israel is at its core. Israel is the mechanism by which God will redeem the earth back to Himself via Christ.
Paul builds that which concerns heavenly places. Peters building was suspended at the end of the book of Acts… it remains as of yet unfinished. If you are familiar with Daniels 70 weeks, 69 were completed with one to go. 2,000 years ago, out of nowhere God called the chief of sinners Saul who was rounding up and killing the believing Jews and gave him a new mission. A mission that had been hidden since the beginning of the world.
One foundation… Christ. Two buildings… Peter (earth/prophesy), Paul (heaven/mystery). This is the essence of what is known as “Pauline mid-Acts dispensational theology”. Coming to an understanding of “rightly dividing” Bible truth for one realm from Bible truth for the other realm is the key which will answer your every question.
The Bible is full of contradictions. None of those contradictions are untruths however. They are truths to one “building” or the other. Earthly truths involving Israel or heavenly truths involving believers today… the new creature which is the church His body.
Which do we follow? Paul writes to us…
Rom 11:13… “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:”
1 Cor 4:16… “Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.”
1 Cor 11:1… “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.”
We worship Christ. We follow Paul as Paul is our pattern, not Peter who is a pattern to believing Israel (of which there are none today).
1 Tim 1:15-16… “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
Every answer to every Bible confusion is solved by learning HOW to read the book. Knowing how it is constructed. 95% of the book deals with Israel and prophetic fulfillment. The remaining 5% (Paul’s epistles) deals with mystery truths given by Christ to Paul for us.
Gal 1:11-12… “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
1 Cor 2:7… “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:”
Past, present, future.
Old testament, no testament, new testament.
Prophesy, mystery, prophesy.
Law unkept, grace and peace, supernatural law keeping.
Genesis – Acts, Romans – Philemon, Hebrews – Revelation
If you email me privately (2 clicks away) I will be happy to send you a small book that will give you a wonderful start along this path. Or, you can begin reading now at…
…and follow the connecting links. Please feel free to question at any part along the way. Pauls prayer for you…
Eph 1:17-20… “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”
The fact that you see those contradictions clearly is fantastic! Most people pretend they don’t exist…
“I have always been a black and white guy and yet there seem to be so many shades of gray.”
Truth is white. Not black. Rightly dividing the Bible will wipe away all gray shades. Excellent thoughts friend! Dig in and you’ll be amazed at what you find!
I been around, man…in your introduction you mentioned a run with alcohol…..that’s like a tricycle to a straight line zero to 160mph quarter mile rice rocket compared to the ‘dance with the devil’ I partook of.
I think a person could never stop learning from what is found in Scripture, much like many on this blog, both posters and commenters, who produce words with sort of a ‘sotto voce’…there seems to be a plenary meaning that can be found if you ‘listen’ closely.
Gen 1:1… “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” Then, GCP says:
‘ In the beginning God created two things, heaven and earth. ‘ True enough, I suppose. But I have been shown, or rather learned, that He created the Trinity of trinities, the laws of creation itself.
“in the beginning”= time; with past, present and future
“God created the heaven”=space: length, width, height
“and the earth”= matter: solid, liquid, gas
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum-here’s a little 3 1/2 minute clip:
Amen, sir ordo! Time, space, matter… in the beginning.
“I think a person could never stop learning from what is found in Scripture”
It would take multiple lifetimes to get to the bottom of the KJB. I’m workin’ this one to the bone.
With all respect, my question did not concern what Peter or Paul said, but rather what Christ did. Which example do we follow? If you are unjustly accused of treason by the US government for say advocating the overthrow of a government run by Bernie Sanders and AOC and are condemned to death, are you going to submit to death (like Christ) or flip the tables of the money changers (like Christ)? Are you going to give Caesar what is Caesar’s or are you going to tell Caesar’s agents to head off into the woods to perform an anatomically impossible act? What does the Bible say to do?
@ Born…
Sorry, I’ll be more specific. What Christ said and did during His earthly ministry was directed to and for the nation Israel specifically. The red letters are not written to believers today.
“Which example do we follow?”
We follow Paul’s example.
“What does the Bible say to do?”
Our instructions are found in Pauls epistles. NOT in Jesus red letters – had prophesy continued without the mystery revealed to Paul, Jesus was about to utterly destroy worldly governments like Caesar’s; which is why He said render unto Caesar. Caesar was about to have nothing at all. His empire obliterated. The Kingdom of God was “at hand”, if only Israel had believed on Him…
Dan 2:44… “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”
In specific regard to government in this dispensation Paul writes:
Rom 13:1-7… “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.”
Note carefully that Paul is describing a just government. How ought we to treat an unjust government? Justly. Our rulers have clearly become a terror to good works. They are insane, evil. Treat them accordingly. First, give them the gospel that will save their eternal souls. Or… first tell them they actually have eternal souls (that’s how bad things really are – thank you “science”). Second, move them out of the way. Establish government containing people who understand Biblical reality. This is work that I personally do not believe can be done. satan is in charge of this world (Luke 4:5-6… not going there for doctrine but for definition) and things have gone according to what is written.
2 Tim 3:13… “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”
I feel that this train is going off the tracks and all we can effectively do is coax people off the train. Thus my activity here among intelligent people and elsewhere.
Eph 5:15-17… “See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
How do we wisely redeem the time? What is the will of the Lord?
1 Tim 2:3-4… “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
Show men the way off the train. Salvation by grace through faith. Our daily activities should resemble those found in Romans 12.
“Are you going to give Caesar what is Caesar’s or are you going to tell Caesar’s agents to head off into the woods to perform an anatomically impossible act?”
Currently, I am giving to Caesar as we all are. The times they are a changin’ tho… Each one of us has our own line in the sand. Thank God we are saved by what Christ did and not by what we do…
What do you mean by move them out of the way? Certainly Romans 12 does not authorize you to use violent force. That is apparently left for God. But then apparently Romans 13 does authorize God’s agents to use violence against wrong doers. Also, it is a very generous interpretation to say that Paul is only speaking of just governments. He uses no such language. Maybe I am missing something, but does someone else see a logical inconsistency here?
If God is real – and He is — then He is among us now. He is really and truly alive.
If God is alive, he loves every single human being on the planet, and wants us to know Him, and know for ourselves that He is alive, and He is Love.
God offers Himself to us, but never forces Himself on us (e.g. look at Jesus, who allowed Himself to be betrayed and denied by those whom He counted amongst his personal friends [see: Judas, Peter, Thomas], but even then He doesn’t hold any grudges).
I have a friend who has sent me letters over the course of the time I have known him, over forty years. There are many, many letters between us, where we talk about all sorts of things that are important to us, or at least were important to us at the time we wrote them. These are true letters — we shared true thoughts, and true things.
But my friend is not the letters we shared. My friend is still alive today, and if all the letters between us disappeared, he would still have lived among us. He still lives among us. He is beyond any letters, any stories I have about him. He transcends my own limited understanding of him. His life is connected to mine, but apart from mine.
My friend has many friends, and has many letters between many friends. But he is beyond all the letters that have ever been shared. People may read my friends letters and believe they know my friend, but until they experience him in real life, until they have a real, personal encounter with the fully living and breathing human, they’ll never know him. They’ll only imagine that they know him, through the letters he sent.
The letters are all true. The letters are all great.
The letters mean nothing, if they get in the way of you getting to know my friend for yourself.
God has no grandchildren.
🙂
I would note that one should never misconstrue God’s love of His Creation with His eternal enmity with evil.
I hear it all the time…”why would a loving God (fill in the blank here)?”
Because – EVIL! Unrepentant evil. We don’t make the rules…but we are ALL subject to them regardless.
“It was suggested last week that I submit an article to the Platform.”
I am the one who suggested it. Don’t be afraid to give credit where credit is due.
———————————————– –
“Seems as if I’ve raised a hackle or two on the backs of a few “big dogs” around these parts.”
That would be me also. Don’t be afraid to say what everyone already knows.
Is that greed or envy I’m smelling?
You’ve got a good nose for the written word.
Stuck has never been one to hold back his feelings, they bleed right through his words.
I have never been very trusting of any religious teaching NOT written first hand by the spiritual leader himself/herself. If there is a message or a teaching that is that important, write it down in your own words. That a student of the teacher recounts the teaching years later only means that their own lack of enlightenment and questionable memory become more a part of the narrative than the teacher originally intended. Relying then upon the exact words that are the result of multiple translations, unwavering control of the texts by political organizations playing a religious role as well, further brings into serious question just how accurate any of the text can be.
There may be something to be gained, but, I personally cannot put a lot of stock in it all. And yes, I absolutely believe in the divine.
“I have never been very trusting of any religious teaching NOT written first hand by the spiritual leader himself/herself.”
And I will never trust a religious teaching written by any “spiritual leader” him or herself. Thus we have the mormons, jehovahs witnesses, 7’th day adventists, etc… all who share a common thread. All claim that an angel appeared unto them and gave them “further” revelation than what the Bible proclaims and all also always diminish the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
I’m not that guy. I believe the book God wrote, not what men say.
2 Tim 3:16… “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
Also, Paul warned us about angels giving us information…
Gal 1:8… “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”
Obviously you are unfamiliar with the rich, 5,000+ year history of religious tradition in the east (Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.) and the religious adepts and others who do not claim to have been “visited,” but who claim to have had direct experiences of the divine nature of the universe themselves, have written down their experience, have documented their spiritual method of attaining these states of consciousness, and have shared their direct experience of the divine with their students. More quotes from a book whose content has been controlled by political leaders of a church, does not further a case for blind faith. Everything is the divine and we are not in any way separate from the divine except as our perceptions and our contraction from reality prevents our tacit experience of our true nature. The Bible (in my opinion) comes up quite short in its teaching of these fundamental truths that all eastern religions have recognized (each in their own way) for centuries.
Not unfamiliar. I’m sure many have has experiences with the “divine” or at least what seems to them to be divine. These “states of consciousness” as you call them… what do they have to do with objective truth? Objective truth is that which all may perceive, not just an “adept” or someone taking blotter acid. Subjective truth is what you describe.
“More quotes from a book whose content has been controlled by political leaders of a church”
The book claims to have been written by God Himself. That’s something else entirely from the claim you make about it. Was it? Only one way to find out. What I see is a book that not only could man never have written (it predicts the future), but a book that man wouldn’t ever write even if he had the ability. It says nothing good about us; except that God loves His creation and wants His creation to appreciate what’s been done for it.
“Everything is the divine and we are not in any way separate from the divine except as our perceptions and our contraction from reality prevents our tacit experience of our true nature.”
That’s quite a statement. You are then divine unless of course you fail to perceive your own divineness. I have one last quote for you.
Gen 3:5… “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
This line of thought you present, as do the eastern religions, is older than old… “Man good.” No, he’s not. If man was good, the world would not be in the condition it is currently in.
For the record between us personally, I agree with the vast majority of the things you write in the comments section of this blog. Your moniker, Mr. Liberty is very fitting and I appreciate your thoughts. It is clear to me that you choose not to believe the book in the ways I do. Most don’t. I would compel you to examine it very closely before any final judgements are made. That’s all.
peace, sir…
Yours is a classically-monotheistic perspective on the divine. I understand that. The great tradition of religious teachings shows that at their core essence, ALL religious teachings (especially the esoteric teachings) are the same fundamentally. Many have looked at the teachings of Christ in the context of the great tradition, and find nothing of his words to be inconsistent with that tradition, but recognize that his focus was on the heart center of energy (love).
That you “blow off” the great tradition of saints, sages, and adepts as some guy taking blotter acid, shows that you do NOT understand this 5000+ year old tradition of spiritual enlightenment. You believe that god is outside of us all and separate from us all. I get that. That is the western tradition, and hard to escape. That is NOT the tradition of the east, where the divine is seen as all there is, and that direct experience of the divine state of existence (call it god if you want) is seen as attainable by all (how could it be other than this, as we all MUST be composed of the divine?).
My collection of religious texts is nearly as large as my collection of political and economic texts. When I came across the teachings that rang true for me, I knew I had found what I was looking for. My personal experience with the divine state of nature confirms and verifies what these teachers have written of (and there is a very common theme among them all). All paths lead to Rome as they say. We are all on our own unique path because of who we are and how the divine touches us personally. I was once an atheist who thought that science had all the answers. Then some personal experiences got me looking for answers and what I ultimately found, satisfied that search.
You write… ” When I came across the teachings that rang true for me, I knew I had found what I was looking for.”
Hard question. I see a bunch of “I’s” and a “me” in that short statement. How and why do “you” matter at all to what reality may or may not be?
Are you the arbiter of ultimate reality? For you? For me too? Do we all create our own realities? Would there then be any “reality” at all? Or is reality just plainly real and we need to learn to deal with it as we are able?
I enjoy conversations like this (must be the philosophy major in me), I hope you do too. Time to mow the lawn for the first time this year Mr. Liberty. Hope you have an outstanding day!
Well, as my ego is still intact and has not dissolved into the infinite that is the divine, the word “I” and “me” is appropriate. Maybe one could say that the divine within my being connected with the divine that was communicated through those specific teachings and that is how the connection was made. One way or the other, this current incarnation of my non-enlightened being did not make that same connection with the other religious texts I exposed this transitory meat sack to…including the bible (both new and old testament). And as the search for us all is a search to reconnect with the divine source of it all, one can only deal with the reality that one “creates” and what it provides as teaching.
Only about 1/3rd of the way through, but here’s a link to 6 videos explaining ‘Rightly Dividing’: http://gracebiblecommunitychurch.org/rightly-dividing/
It’s an excellent tutorial. Also, don’t forget Jesus told John, in Revelation, to reject all other gospels, even if proclaimed by ‘an angel’. Guess who (supposedly) gave Mo, the paedophile, his ‘gospel’… the angel Gabriel. Riiiiiight! I’m thinking it was a different one, using a stolen identity.
Awesome stuff P2… Rodney is an excellent teacher and I have him linked to my own site!
P2 – Something else along those lines:
2 Cor. 11:14 – And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Mo saw an angel of light. Paul’s words warned those who would listen 500 years prior to Islam’s establishment. Jospeph Smith saw an angel of light. Many others have seen “an angel of light”. Look where where we are now.
True that…
The Gospel of Grace released me of all the confusion and unanswered questions I had. The In Christ position and knowing that OSAS comforted me. Thank you for a great article.
Amen and you’re welcome!
OK, let’s talk about facts.
Fact #1: This is the most important one and key. Your always-on preaching button is “voiced and heard” for one reason, and one reason only; it is because of the good graces and extreme patience of the Administrator, who is slow to anger and loathes censure.
Fact #2: You have taken great advantage of Admin’s grace. You interject YOUR views about God and the bible constantly … as in, almost every day, … as in, out of context to the actual topic.
Fact #3: As is clear from this 7,000 word post, you feel it is your calling and duty to preach the Word. Conversely, you don’t give a rat’s ass about acting with reasonable decorum on a public forum. You literally act with No Boundaries. You’re gonna do what you wanna do when you wanna do it. Cuz, God! As I’ve said before, it’s an in-your-face tactic, and you seem to revel in it.
Fact #4: You’re on the right path here!! I hope your first article gets 500+ responses. Really. I hope people debate Dispensations, Paul, the KJV, and the other dozen topics you brought up until their fingers fall off. I hope a nice shit-fest ensues between pre-Trib and post-Trib folks that will result in an a-fib heart failure. I hope Odin worshippers mix it up with Paulites. I hope to see a few “fuck you and your mamma” type comments. I hope to see at least three people threaten to leave and never come back.
Lastly, I hope you continue to submit many original articles about god, Jesus, and the Bible — and cut back your preaching everywhere else.
But what about ‘in time and out of time’?
2T4:2
Richard Carrier
On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt
I am reading this book. It confirms my belief that there has been no historical evidence of Jesus. Not that the good news is wrong or bad. It is the way to live, do one to others…, mercy, and all that.
On the Historicity of the Holocaust: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt
I am reading this book. It confirms my belief that there has been no historical evidence of the Holocaust.
Outside of the NT, there is ZERO historical evidence of Jesus’ life.
That doesn’t mean he didn’t exist. It means there is no historical evidence.
Christians will scramble like crazy and point to 3 or 4 “outside” (i.e.; non-Christian sources)
—– The Joo historian Josephus in his “Antiquities of the Jews” ….. but that short parapgraph (in a work that spans volumes) has been totally debunked as a fraud
—– Pliny (a Roman historian) wrote a letter to the Emperor requesting his assistance in the proper punishment of a group of “Christiani”. However, the letter was written in 110AD! It only proves there were a group of people called “Christians”. A third party who wasn’t even alive during Jesus’ time certainly is not qualified to offer “proof” of Jesus actual existence. Here also, most (not all) scholars consider the letter a forgery.
Those are the two “Biggies” for believers. Off the top of my head I can’t think of the other one or two examples — but they are even more meager and questionable than the ones mentioned above.
========================= =
Let me say it again, — outside of the NT, there is ZERO historical evidence of Jesus’ life.
Now this is quite odd considering than the Roman era in which Jesus lived is one of the most heavily documented periods in ancient history. The Romans, like the Germans in WWII, documented everything.
You would think that a guy who walked on water, tore up a temple and started a riot, raised the dead, gave sight to the blind, was murdered, arose from the dead, followed by 500 (!!!) dead people arising from their graves and walking around Jerusalem, —- that, well, some Reporter from the Roman News Network would have noticed and written a word or two about it!!
But, noooo. Nada. Zilch. No historical record whatsoever.
RNN was known as the fake news network. They convinced people to deny the cave incident.
that’s a funny–
i loves it when you sit up on the hillside in the cool of the evening & yip away,yip away–
Does the book explain that the entire gospel is a hoax perpetrated by some clever Jews who decided to confront the Pharisees about their hypocrisy and reliance on the law instead of practicing mercy? And that money changers story is rich, who thought of that one and to what purpose? Were these rogue Jews some sort of Kesey Merry Pranksters staging some flash mob scene with folks pretending to be healed by a fake Messiah? You are onto something, Subwoe, please submit and article.
# 1 & 2 are total BS. If Admin was merely being indulgent and polite, he never would have posted such a long winded exposition.
You’ve been called, “big dog”.
You took several paragraphs to answer …. and somehow didn’t provide the complete answer.
—- There were MANY gospel accounts! Luke tells us so in the very first verse. –
“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,”
—- Even Jesus and his disciples competed with others not in their little circle who were casting out demons. I think the disciples wanted to kick their asses. But, Jesus told them to chill out, saying—- “For whoever is not against us is for us.”
—- True Fact: Latest archeological findings indicate there were dozens of various “gospels” during Paul’s time. There were even more competing groups trying to explain what Jesus was … for example, the various and sundry flavors of Gnostics. It was a wild wild west of competing ideas.
Bottom Line: What Paul meant by “another” Jesus was simply this: ANY teaching about Jesus that was DIFFERENT than Paul’s!! And goody for Paul! It was his version of what Christ was/is/will-be that eventually won over all the other competing ideas.
What I told you, Mick? Am I right or am I right?
To which Mick are you speaking? There appears to be several here.
You are the only one I call Mick. Unless you’re related to Hawaii 5-O, I don’t think calling yourself Irish Lord or Aztec God is a real title.
Good to know. And I’m surprised that you haven’t inquired as to how I chose that moniker.
I figured it was because Austrian God was taken.
I intended to cycle through the names of Mexican banda artists but Stuck said he liked EL Coyote. It works because it is spelled the same in English.
…and yeah. you were right.
“What Paul meant by “another” Jesus was simply this: ANY teaching about Jesus that was DIFFERENT than Paul’s!!”
True. Including Peter’s. Because Peter’s gospel of the circumcision/Kingdom was temporarily halted in favor of Paul’s gospel of the uncircumcision/grace. But now…!
“And goody for Paul! It was his version of what Christ was/is/will-be that eventually won over all the other competing ideas.”
Actually not… if that were the case my views would be far more popular and there would be little to no confusion in the church. No denominations at all.
2 Tim 1:15… “This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.”
The subject of men’s souls is of the utmost importance, although often the least considered in this ‘realm’, it seems. When I saw my dad pull his last breath, after the suffering he went through, I shook my fist at God and determined myself to ‘get to the bottom’ of it. That was twenty years ago. Ironically, today would have been his 92nd birthday.
I’ve read it in it’s entirety several times, but was brought up by a man who taught me a simple….”there’s nothing you can do about it son, Jesus Christ already did it”…..He lived his meager existence always putting someone else ahead of himself. Was an elder for decades in a Lutheran church, on my mother’s side those ‘Lutheran’s’ went back to Germany. But the Lutheran church services seemed to be few who believed, and many who enjoyed the ‘social gathering’ and the ‘goin out to eat crowd’
His own mother died giving birth to a still born daughter, my dad became the youngest of the remaining ELEVEN, and was orphaned at the age of 9 when his dad died. All he had ever wanted was a family of his own, and had looked forward to grandkids. My older brother, nor I, had any; and our little sister (at the age of 37) had a son. That son was born exactly one month after dad had collapsed, went to the ER, (only hospital/doctor visit I’m aware that he ever had) and was found to have a cancerous growth restricting his aorta, he was ‘ate up with it’. (never smoked, drank…). surgery was able to repair the restricted artery, but he was only given 3-6 months to live. So, for the next twenty months I watched him die, while he watched his only grandson grow…he never took a single pain pill, though he did try various chemo/radiation (may have ‘bought’ him more time) treatments. He never had a NOT ONE SINGLE BAD THING TO SAY ABOUT THE LORD ! Something I could hardly conceive !
I said all that to say this: I began with a man who taught me Faith by Grace Alone !
He lived it ! He was full of forgiveness ! During his decline, he told me that all a man had to do to become a preacher, was to own a KJV Bible, and be able to read ! In detail, I was talking with him about this very subject, as I had helped load him up in my truck, to go get him some Tylenol PM at Walmart (said he wanted to see if they helped any). As I was turning into the parking lot, he said “hell, son, if you want to preach, get your Bible and go stand on that corner and start readin it out loud”
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- I got a bit side tracked….I will try to address a couple of scriptural questions/thoughts.
“hell, son, if you want to preach, get your Bible and go stand on that corner and start readin it out loud”
I love it!
GCP,
Which day is the true 7th day? Who changed it to a different day? Why did they change it?
Btw, they admit to changing it.
I think this has a chance to get 400 comments.
Pick a day. Do you think it matters?
Saturday was the sabbath day according to the Jewish religion. But honestly, I don’t know. In 6 days did God create and on the 7’th, He rested. The days weren’t named as far as I can read; perhaps someone else has more insight into this. Could it have been Odinsday, er… Wednesday? Beats me.
Recorded in the Catechism, the Pope changed it to Sunday. Why? To get the Pagans to join Christianity. There is a strong belief that some Christian holidays are Pagan.
Oh, I get you… Yes, agreed as to why the pope altered it; to gather more people to his religion. I do believe that “Christian holidays” are pagan because there are no holy days in the dispensation of grace. I don’t believe the pope is Christian.
Col 2:16-17… “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
Believers today are a new creature. Members of His body.
GCP,
If you care to tell…are you 7th Day Adventist?
I’m a Bible believer DB. A saved Christian. If you want to put a label on my belief system call me a mid-Acts Pauline dispensationalist.
No, I don’t need a label. I just wanted to know your bent.
” I don’t believe the pope is Christian.”
Now you’re on to something!
this pope or any pope?
Pick a Pope. They do!
Any pope… My money is on the office of false prophet = pope, Tampa. This one, the next one, the one after that… I wish catholics were more receptive to scripture, but they place so much emphasis on man centered tradition. And Peter. And Mary, queen of heaven (look that phrase up in Jeremiah). My sister married a catholic and her entire wonderful family remain unsaved to this day. There is no (hardly any) talking to them. I grew up methodist. My parents remained. Neither are saved… Very difficult situation but people are responsible for themselves. All I can do is all I can do.
Catholics believe that salvation comes by grace through faith. So why are they not saved?
“Catholics believe that salvation comes by grace through faith.”
No, they don’t. I know many. They are members of my family. I wish it were different. If they did believe in grace alone through faith alone they would be saved (see the massive error of religion in general) and therefore not catholic; trying to earn salvation by re-sacrificing Jesus Christ every Sunday and (supposedly) eating His flesh, drinking His blood and confessing their sins to other men, praying the rosary hoping for eventual forgiveness, if they “do” enough to earn it.
Saved people ARE forgiven. They KNOW where they are going when they die. They don’t require “last rights”. There is no need to pay to get someone out of purgatory earlier than not as there is no purgatory. There is no tithe. There is no wealth. There are no priests. There is no laity. It is paganism cloaked in Christ. It is power and control over others, pure and simple. And it works. Why is it the catholic church DID NOT WANT the Bible in the hands of “regular people”? They murdered countless millions of innocent believers because they would not submit to the religious control grid.
Col 2:13… “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
If catholics knew they were forgiven all trespasses, why do they pray “forgive us our trespasses”? I used to do it too as a catholic lite – a methodist. Then I started reading. Now I know better.
Catholics call what I believe the sin of presumption.
There is no religion in grace. There is only thankfulness for what’s been done by God for me and anyone who wants the same. Crying shame more people don’t want it…
It’s church doctrine. Faith alone saves (we read St Paul too) but works can damn right? Isn’t the act of faith a work? If not, your theology contains zero level of moral responsibility. Maybe that is why you are not answering my question about proper moral action based on the example of Christ…because it doesn’t really matter. I have my issues with the church obviously but your theology is not making much more sense. I wish it were, but it is just not.
No moral responsibility???
Romans 6:12-18 KJB… “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
I am accountable to my Creator. My every action. This is serious business.
“Maybe that is why you are not answering my question about proper moral action based on the example of Christ…because it doesn’t really matter.”
I must be missing something… Christ (in the red letters) is not my example. He was specifically Israel’s example. Paul is my example as he preaches Christ.
Can someone damn themselves by their actions and works if they also simultaneously believe that they are saved by faith in God’s grace alone? Answer me in your own words if you will.
See where I am going with this?
You strike at the heart of Catholicism because of their many sacraments and intermediary rituals, and then discard the actual example of Christ in favor of a man’s interpretation of Christ. Does that strike you as hypocritical?
If someone cannot be saved by their works, works cannot damn either.
Works have been taken out of the equation entirely by Christ’s work. The issue today is not sin or the lack thereof. Sin was dealt with on the cross. The issue today (as it has always been) is “do you believe what God says to you?”
Today God says to man; “You are a sinner.” “You deserve to die.” “Because I want you to live, I will die for you.” “I offer this as a gift to you.” “Do you accept?”
Yes – heaven… (I choose God – He paid the price – He can, Rom 3:26)
No – hell… (I choose me – I’ll pay the price – you can’t, Rom 3:10-20)
Yes, I am saying that I could murder people and still go to heaven. Examine Saul’s life before he became Paul. Would I ever do such a thing? Not in cold blood, no. In self defense (I hope never to have to) but yes I would kill. Two shot 410/.45 long colt on my hip at all times.
“You strike at the heart of Catholicism because of their many sacraments and intermediary rituals, and then discard the actual example of Christ in favor of a man’s interpretation of Christ.”
What example of Christ am I discarding having heard what I say about the red letter deception; yes deception? And what “man’s” interpretation would you be referring to? Paul? Paul’s words are Christ’s words to us! It is in Paul’s epistles alone that we find Christ’s offer of peace with God by grace alone, through faith alone, in the shed blood of Christ alone.
2 Tim 3:16… “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
I’ve considered that myself, at times.
” One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. ” Rom. 14:5-6
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- so, there’s that
Indeed, we ought to handle the weaker brother carefully and with charity. Try not to get prickly with people, even though it does happen… but we can’t diminish truth to appease someones feelings.
Rom 14:13… “Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.”
Donkey Balls
I see what you are doing.
And I think it’s hilarious.
Grace Country Pastor,
When dividing of the scripture you have interpreted some of the division properly but ultimately with the wrong conclusion.
On your website you claim Peter was preaching to converted Jews. This would mean the Bible’s 1st Peter 1:16-17 was not speaking to gentiles when he said:
The word for “holy” in verse 16 was “kodesh” which means “separate”.
1 Corinthians 3:23 says:
Galatians 3:27-28 says:
If there is no division how could Peter and Paul be preaching to Jews and Gentiles respectively?
In Matthew 7 Jesus speaks about good fruit and bad fruit. Verse 22 & 23 says:
The word for iniquity in verse 23 is “anomia” which means “transgressors of the Torah”
Hebrews 13:8 says:
In Matthew 5:18 Jesus said:
Romans 3:31 says:
In 2nd Timothy 3:15-17 Paul tells Timothy the Tanakh “made him wise for salvation” and Galatians 3:24-5 says:
But in 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 Paul said:
Was Paul double-minded?
No! We are justified by faith in Christ but the Torah is still to be used for “instruction in righteousness” or how to act separately from the world.
Just as Paul in 2nd Timothy 3:17 said:
From the beginning how has God identified his people? By those who followed his law and who honored his feasts (compare 2 Timothy 3:15-17 with Deuteronomy 4:5-6)
In 1st Corinthians 5:8 Paul instructs us to celebrate the Passover! He said: “Therefore let us keep the feast”.
Christians should evangelize to unsaved Jews from their Hebraic perspective. The Passover’s Matzah is the example of the body of Christ. It has no leaven (shadow & type of sin), it is broken, wrapped in cloth and hidden.
The best way to reach others is to speak to them in ways they understand.
In Colossians 2:16 Paul said:
He was speaking to newly save gentiles who were celebrating God’s feasts in accordance to the Torah!
In Ephesians 2:8-10 Paul said:
Jesus and the early Apostles celebrated the Torah and the feasts of God. Including Paul. The spring feasts foretold of Christ’s 1st coming and the fall feasts foretold of Christ’s 2nd coming. Let those with ears to hear to rightly divide the word of God! Jesus Christ is the living Torah! (Philippians 2:12-13).
Roberto, I’ll just take one small piece of this because you are combining truths that should not be combined. We need to slow way down. You use the scripture:
Romans 3:31… “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
What was the law’s purpose?
Rom 3:20… “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
The laws purpose was to demonstrate to man his sinful nature. The law is perfect, holy, just and good. It also condemns absolutely because no one in time past (but Christ Himself) could keep it.
How do we who are not under the law (Rom 6:14-15) then establish the law? Not by keeping it… (we can’t). We establish it by realizing our sinful nature and thus our need for a Savior. Our inability to keep it drives us to Christ, thus we establish the laws ultimate purpose.
In the future God will have a people (believing Israel) who will be supernaturally empowered to keep the law. This will empower them to endure to the end of the great tribulation; their baptism with Spirit and by fire (Mat 3:11). This is the essence of the new testament promised to Israel. Why make one nation so powerful? Because they were always to be the channel of blessing from God to the world. At first (Old Testament) by their own strength. That didn’t work, because sin. Then, in the future (New Testament) by Gods Holy Spirit empowered (Acts 2) strength. That will work. That given Holy Spirit power in early Acts came to an end by the books close. And then begin Paul’s epistles…
Today, we are not under any covenants/testaments whatsoever. We are under grace. And yes, we should walk in good works as Eph 2:8-10 states. If such in Ephesians is true, that we are saved by grace through faith, not of our works; how then do you reckon claiming for yourself what Peter said in:
1 Pet 1:16-17… “Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:”
These will be judged (saved or not) according to their works. We are saved NOT according to our works, but by Gods freely offered gift. Do you see the contradiction? I would not want to be judged according to my works; I would much rather be judged according to Christ’s atoning work which is exactly what Paul explains to us.
The mid-Acts position holds the answers to ALL of these issues you bring up.
Matthew 5:17
The correct way to divide:
Kodesh or Qodesh
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/qodesh.html
Anomia (in relation to God’s Torah)
Anomia is used by Jesus. Plus by Paul in Romans, 2 Corinthians, 2 Thessalonians, Hebrews, etc.
See here:
https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G458/anomia.htm
Although we are saved by faith we are called to be holy. This means separate in accordance with the Torah. Jesus is the living word.
I don’t speak Greek. I have an English Bible.
“Although we are saved by faith we are called to be holy.”
True.
“This means separate in accordance with the Torah.”
False.
“Jesus is the living word.”
True.
Okay. Please elaborate/explain a little further. My understanding and belief is Christ accomplished all for me on the cross. With the passage of time … as a Christian my deeper understanding of His sacrifice compels me to engage in ‘good works’ not for public accolades (or any other reason) but simply due to my understanding of the gravity of the price He paid. It becomes my nature to help people …. to spread the word of God as I come to grasp the ‘greatness’ of Jesus Christ.
Boom! Beautiful!
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJB… “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.”
Paul can be snarky at times… ?
Serious topic. We are saved unto good works. We will not be judged for sin. Christ took care of sin. We will be judged by what we did with the knowledge of our salvation.
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJB… “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
Just as sin necessitated death, faith necessitates virtue.
The law was never a means for righteousness for Israel. Some in Israel took it that way, but Paul cleared that up in Rom.7 saying they must be dead to the law to be joined with Christ.
Israel’s righteousness was to be derived from the same source as their father Abraham. By trusting in God. This promise ran along side the law for Israel until it’s fulfillment when Jesus came. Gal.3:17-19.
The law was given to make them accountable for their sin. The reason for doing this was so they would stop behaving in destructive ways so they would continue as a people so the Messiah would come through their bloodline as prophesied. The law was a gaurd over Israel until faith came according to Gal.3:23. Nothing else. This is why Paul said that no flesh could be justified(righteous) by the works of the law.
So righteousness that brings life has always been by faith and never by the works of the law. Paul confirms this by saying that there was never a law given that could give life. Gal.3:21.
And we see several examples of those Israelites that had no trouble keeping the law blamelessly. Two in Luke1:5,6 when Luke writes “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”
And again in Phil.3:6 and Job1. So their ability to keep all of the law was not the problem with gaining righteousness for eternal life from it. It was because the law was never given for the purpose of giving life.
Blessings:-}
Thank you GCP and commenters. I’ve added a couple of new bookmarks.
Thanks for your article and the Admin’s graciousness in posting.
I have felt unworthy to respond to your posts, articles etc., as my simple words do not stand up to your researched, annotated, multiple verse referenced ministry.
I do not disagree with anything you have written, but for me, would be a distraction in following my Lord. In my understanding of living according to my faith in Jesus Christ, 2 verses come to mind:
Ephesians 2:14, 15a For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in His flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
Philippians 3: 13,14 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself to have yet taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Yeah, I know, NIV, but I had no other Bible available at my work.
None of this disputes anything you have taught, so please continue in peace in your walk. I would only add that there is quite enough for believers to contend with right now and still be found faithful to our calling, that attempting to define past dispensations seems a bit unnecessary.
My one question is: Does ones salvation depend on which dispensation one holds to? Or, what constitutes to you a false believer? Is it from which gospel or epistle (or Apostle; Jew or Gentile) they use to receive salvation?
not sure… “I have felt unworthy to respond to your posts, articles etc., as my simple words do not stand up to your researched, annotated, multiple verse referenced ministry.”
Oh man… that makes me feel awful. I sure wish you would feel free to speak your mind to me at any time. Please…! I can have you up to speed in no time as well. There are some excellent teachers that put out some phenomenal videos. See http://www.GraceAmbassadors.com and look for any “chart lesson” video you can find. Just start watching. Once this rightly dividing stuff opens the Bible up to you, the scriptures start to flow really easy. I’m not all that bright on my own…
“Does ones salvation depend on which dispensation one holds to?”
Yes sir…!!! The dispensation we live in defines what God is doing and therefore how we are to respond to Him. That’s why I am so insistent about it. If I am a gentile living at the time of Christ’s earthly ministry, how am I saved? By blessing Israel according to Gen 12:1-3. If I am a gentile living after the translation, how am I saved? By blessing Israel according to Gen 12:1-3. Why? Because Israel is to be the channel of blessing from God to the gentile world.
If I am living in this dispensation of grace, how am I saved? By trusting that the shed blood of Christ paid the price for my sin in full, and that His subsequent resurrection is proof of my eternal life. I know I can’t earn salvation. I know Christ did it for me. That’s salvation in a nutshell. If I’m working for salvation, I don’t have it… I can’t earn it. Nothing I can possibly do can ever equal what Christ already did. I am left to only say thank you Father in whatever way I’m capable!
If you believe that Peter, James, John (or even Jesus in the red letters) are the Apostles to follow, you are working to “bring in the Kingdom, as the Kingdom is at hand”. Unfortunately, for 2,000 years the Kingdom has not been at hand. Religious people are just plain wrong. That does not mean they are stupid, just deceived. The offer was taken off the table, for now. Hardly anyone seems to grasp this most basic fact and the resultant confusion among Christians is horrible. Critical stuff for sure. We are talking eternity here. The confusion that exists is testimony to the incredible job satan has done deceiving people about religious issues. he stands behind pulpits every Sunday.
2 Cor 11:14-15… “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
satan looks wonderful in this dispensation. he tells people how good they are. In the next, he will walk about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet 5:8). We need to know him too because he changes to more effectively counter what God does dispensationally. he is very powerful, but not powerful enough to break that which God has wrought in the believer today. Today’s believer is neither a Jew nor a Gentile. He is a new creature… a member of Christ’s body. There is some very deep stuff behind that fact. Think about this. Christ is not here on earth. He is currently seated on the right hand of God the Father. What then is “His body, the church”? It is us, we are here physically in His stead and nothing will get done on His behalf unless we do it. Yikes…!
2 Cor 5:17-21… “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you BY US: we pray you IN CHRIST’S STEAD, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
God is not imputing mans trespasses to man today, IN THIS DISPENSATION. He’s not mad, He’s offering us the biggest “break” man’s ever been offered! He put mans trespasses upon His Son and His Son paid the price of those transgressions. Death. That we may live eternally! And it’s free…! Just take Him at His word. That’s all He has ever asked of man. Believe what I say. Adam didn’t, and here we are.
Read Romans 3-8 very slowly and deliberately online at http://www.biblegateway.com in KJB format. Digest a few chart lessons at the above website. Your understanding will increase 100 fold very quickly if you simply believe the words on the page. Let them say what they say and mean what they say. God does not lie.
Grace and peace to you and yours brother! Hit me anytime… 🙂
Do you realize how esoteric all of this is? Why would God make the path to salvation so elusive?
The world (satan) has made it so. Salvation is the most simple thing on earth. Perhaps mans ego prevents him from seeing the utter simplicity of it? Examine the utterly crazed complexities of worldly religions! Man does not naturally want to think poorly of himself. The world speaks non-stop of “self esteem” and how we are such “good people”. Sorry, we’re not. But God loves us anyway… we are His creation and He has future plans for us.
2 Cor 11:3… “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”
The gospel is this… “You are a lost broken sinner unable to fix yourself. Christ died for your sin on your behalf (God does not want you to die) as the penalty of sin is death; He was buried and was raised again from the dead, defeating death for your justification, all according to the scriptures. This is offered to you as a free gift.”
Take the gift, believe and be saved for all eternity.
Do you remember that likeness and image thing? Why did God create men if not to co-create and glorify God. We are sparks of the divine.
“Do you remember that likeness and image thing?”
Yes.
Gen 1:27… “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
“Why did God create men if not to co-create and glorify God.”
That’s exactly why God created. That His creation would multiply and exist with Him in perfect unity forever. The garden was declared “very good” and that’s what God intended; what God still intends for those that choose Him over self. Once sin is destroyed from earth and heaven, things will be very good once again. I so look forward to that and want as many as possible to join me!
“We are sparks of the divine.”
No. We were sparks of the Divine… Adam and Eve were in that condition before they ate from the tree. We no longer are. We are fallen out of Gods image and made in Adam’s fallen image. This is why we require salvation.
Gen 5:3… “And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:”
Noah came from Seth’s lineage. We all come from Noah’s three sons.
Rom 5:18-19… “Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
2 Cor 3:18… “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
Amen!
Amen and thank you.
+1,000… 🙂
We live in the most incredible and exciting epoch in the history of the world. God our Creator’s fully revealed will for mankind is made available to any and all who want it.
A 2,000 year pause in the 70 week prophetic time clock at the end of week 69…! A mystery revealed.
A new creature put back in the image of pre-fallen Adam, in Christ. Christ’s physical body on earth.
GCP,
What are your thoughts on Hosea 6:1&2 now in regards to our current timeline on near future event’s regarding the translation of the body of Jesus, the 70th Week of Daniel and the second coming of Jesus?
Certainly the prophet is speaking of “thy Kingdom come”, the end of the great tribulation. This last week of years is divided into two parts. The first 3.5 will likely be a time of great deception, “peace and safety” will be proclaimed. Israel will be “saved”. In the middle of that time period anti-christ will enter into the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and declare himself to be “the christ” they have been waiting for, god. Then all hell breaks lose on earth. If I remember correctly Mary Christine mentioned something about Trump and Kushner overseeing the rebuilding of that temple. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit. Can’t put money on it though.
The two days in Hosea 6:2 could very well be speaking of the first two years of the second 3.5 and the third day could be the last year. Not 100% on this one…
As to attempting to predict the translation, I don’t see that as possible at all. The whole business of the church today (the body of Christ) was a mystery hidden in God since the beginning of the world. Not even satan could have known it. Christ would never have been crucified. This had to be hidden. The best kept secret ever. Until Paul…
1 Cor 2:7-8… “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”
It will happen when God has had enough of us. Once the translation occurs, I imagine things will progress very quickly. The prophetic time clock begins ticking once again. Might there be a “gap” of some sort in there? Maybe?
Honestly, it’s not for us to worry about. We have our job to see souls saved and brothers and sisters come unto the knowledge of truth.
1 Thes 5:1-11… “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”
Hahahahha! I ain’t reading that shit.
i was just about to make a comment about a certain expat who has tremendous amounts of biblical knowledge & insight,and what are his thoughts about this–
why ain’t you reading it?
Tampa – this is seven thousands words, including untold numbers of Biblical references. Come on, get real. No matter what I say, or do not, no one will cahnge their minds from what they already believe, or do not. Talk about on a hiding to nothing.
I abandoned all organized religious groups long ago. GCP runs an organized group. Good luck to him. My experienece is that the hypocrisy runs deep in organized religious groups. Hey, maybe his is an exception. I hope so.
I lived in a small east Texas town. The richest person in town was the Baptist minister, complete with mansion and Mercedes. And yet he called himself a man of Christ. Whatever.
I believe what I believe. I know I am a hypocrite and sinner. But I will not lower myself to join with those too dishonest or blinded that they do not see that of themselves.
I hope GCP does good.
Thank you, sir! I drive an ’05 F-350… and my house is about 2,200 sq./ft. No great shakes but it does the trick.
peace to you and yours.
gcp,
good article,(i think)–there’s a lot to unpack there–
some questions–
in the bible where jc tells peter that he is the rock upon which his church will be built,is he differentiating between the “jewish” church & the “paulian” church?
does the bible say where,when or how the apostles died?
are there any contemporary accounts of their deaths,or are the stories such as being crucified upside down so as not to be seen as equal to christ just feel good stories like george washington & the cherry tree?
Thanks (I think)… 😉
A ton to unpack. But so worth the effort!
“in the bible where jc tells peter that he is the rock upon which his church will be built,is he differentiating between the “jewish” church & the “paulian” church?”
The rock is Christ and the knowledge Peter had that He was the Son of God as prophesied. It is that gospel to Israel, the circumcision (Messiah is here! Scripture was right!) that was the foundation of their salvation. So yes, Peter went on to found the early Acts church which was Jewish. A completely different assembly than what we are today. Many, many Christians believe that the body of Christ began in Acts 2 but that is far, far from true. We are an unprophesied assembly, the body of Christ. Peter was just figuring these things out when he was writing to the other Kingdom saints as to why the Kingdom didn’t come.
2 Pet 3:13-16… “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
Imagine fully expecting the Kingdom… and God pulls Paul out of thin air. WOW… Imagine the job Paul had in trying to explain to Israel that they were no longer Gods chosen… that He was moving on, at least temporarily. All those unfulfilled promises to Israel will be fulfilled. Israels salvation comes when Christ physically returns for the second time.
Acts 3:19-21… “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
When will their (national Israel’s) sins be blotted out? Second coming. Prophesy. Ours are blotted out NOW. Mystery.
“does the bible say where, when or how the apostles died?”
Stephen was stoned to death in Acts 7. Paul speaks of his impending death.
2 Tim 4:6-7… “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:”
That’s about it though.
“are there any contemporary accounts of their deaths,or are the stories such as being crucified upside down so as not to be seen as equal to christ just feel good stories like george washington & the cherry tree?”
I lean towards that, yes.
Interesting post and comments.
Late to the party, but as I’ve stated on more than one occasion here:
All debates are rooted in theology. One way or another.
Reality is Bible based…
Hey, BL ….. I can now give you an update on Ms Freud’s heart condition.
Last week Dr. Dothead did a quickie EKG. He looked at it and shook his head, and said in a somber voice —– “This is not good. She has an abnormally low heart rate. It’s in the low 50s. She may need a pacemaker. And there may be other issues … perhaps a ‘leaky valve’. She needs an electrocardiogram as soon as possible, and we need to put a “harness” on her for 24 hours.”
We kind of freaked out … and stayed freaked out. Who wouldn’t be?
The asshole Dr. Dothead did not tell us what her condition is called. I had to look it up — Bradycardio. He refused to elaborate on this “leaky valve” stuff. Anyway, we did the ECT and harness earlier this week. He called us today with the results.
He said the ECT showed no issues. WTF???? I asked about the “slow heart rate”. It’s slower than normal, but not so slow as to be concerned. Okaaaaay. What about the “leaky valve”? There’s no indication of that, don’t worry. Okaaaay. What about her elevated blood pressure even though she’s on amlodipine? Make an appointment for next month and let’s see how it looks then. Okaaaay.
Make an appointment? FUCK YOU YA FUCKEN DOTHEAD FAKER!!! We already found another cardiologist, and we will never ever set foot in Dr Dothead’s office again. BTW, the new guy is a Joo. Not kidding, my friend. Joo cardiologists …. ya can’t go wrong wif dat!!
=============================================
EDIT: This was post #100. Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
How is it you can post such serious stuff and make it sound funny? I’m glad to hear Mrs F is doing better. I hope you can relax now. Go take a big dump, you earned it, my friend.
“It’s a gift. And a curse.” —— Adrian Monk
I will tell you the truth, Amigo ….. tonight will be the FIRST good night rest I’ll have since the original bullshit session last week. I mean, really, I’d wake up at 2, 3, or 4 in the morning just to see if Ms. Freud was still breathing. I’m no doctor. But, when a doctor is concerned about slow heart rate, and makes a frowny face to show his concern, well yeah … I’m imagining her heart slowing down to ten beats per minute. Which would probably kill her.
Thanks for your concern and kind words, El.
Dr. Dothead should count himself lucky he didn’t get a dotted eye…….? It’s been two yrs. now, since cardioman said my wife has a leaky valve between two chambers….”not to be too concerned, but we’ll monitor it”…..so far, no change.
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum- lotta clowns in the shit parade
Who would vote this down? Assholes.
Good evening. Your article has opened a rather large can of worms with a multitude of accompanying questions. I’ll try and contact you via your webite. In the mean time, please address this issue if you don’t mind. … my understanding and belief is Christ accomplished all for me on the cross. With the passage of time … as a Christian my deeper understanding of His sacrifice compels me to engage in ‘good works’ not for public accolades (or any other reason) but simply due to a greater comprehension regarding the gravity of the price He paid. It becomes my nature to help people …. to spread the word of God as I come to grasp the ‘greatness’ of Jesus Christ. Or …are you of the opinion that the entire Book of James is non-applicable … to Christians that is. Your thoughts?
Here’s another question. As I study 1 Corithians, Paul is encouraging the church to honor their previous financial declarations of support. The funds they were raising were to be distributed to the church in Jerusalem … to their christian brothers located therein. So how can one interpret this in any other way than ‘the church’ was also established in Jerusalem as well. Please reconcile this for me.
One last question. Your position maitains that Israel’s redemption/salvation will happen at a future date. I do not refute this. But what about Jews that live and breath this very moment? Are you suggeting that they have an alternative pathway to salvation/eternal life than the acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior in the present.
(I must say …. I am looking forward to your explanation to this question).
Thank you for your time
Please do feel free to contact me. You have a very good grasp on salvation and I would enjoy the private conversation.
“Or …are you of the opinion that the entire Book of James is non-applicable … to Christians that is.”
I am of that opinion. Why? Because it is not written to Christians, but to believing Israel who must endure the great tribulation to the end to be saved at Christ’s second physical coming to earth. Christians are not “Israel” spiritual or otherwise.
James 1:1… “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.”
Mark 13:13… “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
There is a great deal of information we can learn about the nature of God from the books of James and Mark, but it is not doctrine for us just as Ark building is not doctrine for us. Paul is the apostle Jesus sent specifically to us and in his epistles is a great deal of instruction on how to “do good works”. We are not saved by our good works, we are saved unto good works.
What has James to say on the matter?
James 2:17-20… “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
Is this the same thing Paul writes?
Eph 2:8-10… “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”. The people James is writing to ARE saved by faith AND their good works.”
They are polar opposites. And that’s fine. Both are true… just not at the same time, nor to the same group of people. This is the essence of dispensational theology.
I mentioned above that certain words are meant to those able to receive them. Di you ever see Robert Mitchum in a story about ninjas? He had offended a boss and wanted to atone for his unknowing offense. Another one tells him, if you feel guilt then you can atone, if not then it isn’t necessary.
Born to Morn makes the ‘works’ mistake of trying to fulfill the law. He is getting confused as so many do because they try to bypass repentance and go straight to trying to buy the stairway with fulfilling the law.
Here’s the deal, Born to Morn, step one is repentance.
You can call it whatever kind of mistake you would like to call it, but please answer me this: can you be damned by what you do (i.e. your works) if you simultaneously believe that you are saved by grace through faith alone? Or is your argument more Platonic in that: if you have true faith, it is impossible to act unjustly? Do you see logical problems with the answers to those questions? If you answer no to the first question, what penalty is their for bad behavior?
I have often pondered on the verse: a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways- something like that. You seem undecided, double-minded, even.
Saved people are “saved” from the penalty of sin, not from its presence. To be saved from sins presence will require a great deal of destruction. Thus God offers grace and peace before the destruction commences.
Works are off the table. This is what you fail to realize.
Being saved from sins penalty, should we then go out and sin like crazy? Of course not! If killing people were legal would you go on a killing spree? I sure hope not…
GCP – You make some excellent points, about a doctrine with which I am not familiar, so thank you for educating me. I will continue to digest; this is one of those articles that sticks with you. That said, here is my initial response:
Context, context, context.
In regards to the dispensation of the gospel by Paul to the gentiles, that the term denotes a “’change’ of some sort, ” you cite
but, if we keep reading, in verse 13, Paul states “For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted THE CHURCH OF GOD, and wasted it:”. . . so Paul himself differentiates between followers of Judaism and between Jewish believers, so your statement, “there is no difference between Israel and the Jerusalem church as the Jerusalem church WAS (believing) Israel, ” is more black-and-white than, according to the KJV, Paul is.
Along the same lines, you state:
but neglect, per verses 8 and 9, “(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”
SO, apparently, they were preaching the same gospel, hence FELLOWSHIP, to different audiences. Of course, later, Paul and Peter had a sharp disagreement regarding this issue, and Paul called Peter out on the subject. However, please note that Peter also had a run-in with gentiles, which introduces my next point regarding baptism by the Holy Spirit; we see an awesome example in Acts 10, when a centurion in Caesarea, Cornelius, has a vision of an angel who instructs him to send to Joppa for “Simon, whose surname is Peter” . . . while, the next day, Peter has his own vision regarding “common and unclean”. When he goes to Caesarea and preaches to these gentiles, verse 44-45, “the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
So . . . different gospel? Really?
Please also note also that Jesus DID heal a Samaritan leper, the servant of a Roman Centurion, a demoniac in Gadarene, and a Canaanite woman once, appealing for her daughter, said,” Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.” (Matthew 15:27-28)
And of these people, he asked nothing; he healed them because he could, and that is GRACE, not covenant, as you explained. So, one could argue that the black-and-white case you argue is not so black-and-white.
Also, by extolling the virtues of the KJV, you neglect to mention that the “new” testament was not written in King’s English but in Greek. So, there is a higher authority than the KJV, and I suggest you get a copy of an interlinear (word for word) translation with the Greek (and Hebrew) text, a Strong’s Concordance, and an actual Greek dictionary. Then you can focus on semantics without worrying about what the Anglican James may not have wanted you to know.
And I hope this was a typo:
“Better yet, follow Paul as Christ commands.” No, thanks. I will follow Christ.
And I just caught the additional text that got cut-off from the main body, but I can’t read or type anymore tonight, so I beg pardon if it addresses some of the points I mention….
I appreciate your time and your thoughts!
Yes, different gospels and different churches. The Bible is full of them. Here is the gospel of Abraham…
Gal 3:8… “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
The church in the wilderness…
Acts 7:38… “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:”
“No, thanks. I will follow Christ.”
You can’t and you’d be out of Gods will for you if you tried. God is not building earthly Kingdoms today. He is not providing you the ability to “follow Him” in this dispensation. That’s why He sends Paul as our pattern. Christ commanded those who followed Him to sell everything they owned; and they did. Have you? Those who followed Christ had incredible supernatural abilities. Do you? Can you raise the dead? In time past, people could! Paul could too…! Why? Because he was sent to the Jew first and, since they require signs in order to believe, they would not have thought Paul’s activities were of God had he not those abilities. He lost them by the end of the book of Acts…
Christ told His followers “don’t worry about what to eat, drink or wear; all will be provided”. How does Paul instruct people today?
2 Thes 3:10… “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.”
No wonder liberals hate Paul… 🙂
Seriously, do you see a HUGE problem in the world surrounding this very issue? Everyone here does! We have entire generations of people who feel that they don’t need to work in order to survive! Every other article posted here is on this topic. Why is this? One reason: because people think it’s right to “follow Jesus” when Jesus wants them to follow Paul. We worship Christ correctly and in truth by following Paul.
Let’s examine the verses in Galatians you mention.
Gal 2:7-9… “But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”
Is the “circumcision” the same as the “uncircumcision”? No. One are a group of Jews, the other a group of Gentiles. If there is a gospel of the circumcision (committed unto Peter) AND a gospel of the uncircumcision (committed unto Paul) and the groups are different, why should the gospels be the same? Things that are different cannot be the same. Why Paul at all? There is no need for him if they were all preaching the same gospel.
Notice the last few words of verse 9. They say Paul will go to the heathen (Gentile nations) and Peter to where? The circumcision. The Jews. I thought Peter was to go to “all nations” in Matthew 28. What changed? Something did. It’s that change this whole article is about. That change that so few people see. That change which is critical to salvation today. That change satan tries so desperately to hide. That change which opens the entirety of scripture to the eyes of whomever wants to see.
God has a plan of salvation for the earth which Adam corrupted. It involves Israel and the Gentile nations. It takes place in the past and in the future.
God has a plan of salvation for the heavens which satan corrupted. It involves the body of Christ made up of neither Jew nor Gentile. It is taking place now.
“And of these people, he asked nothing; he healed them because he could, and that is GRACE, not covenant, as you explained.”
God has always been graceful toward His creation. Please don’t hear me say otherwise. Being graceful and the dispensation of grace are two completely different things however. This is what we need to learn. “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8).” God is grace but that grace has not always been dispensed freely. Israel had to follow the law to be blessed, otherwise they would be cursed. If/then. Covenant arrangement. Contract. If you do this, I will do that. Is this the relationship you currently have with God? Can you actually live up to such? I surely cannot…
Mat 6:14-15… “For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
This is an if/then arrangement if there ever was one. Or, are you forgiven, as in:
Col 2:13… “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
Which sounds better to you? The first are literal followers of Christ in His earthly ministry. The second are followers of Christ via Paul in His heavenly ministry.
You quote verses in Matthew to make your point, lets look at the whole situation.
Mat 15:22-28… “And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
Sweet loving, kind, nice, Jesus called this woman (who KNEW who He was when most of Israel didn’t) a dog. The apostles who in Matthew 10:5 were told to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel want her to go away. What is her faithful reply? She knows she is a dog and thus subservient to the nation Israel (her masters) thus she fulfills the gospel of Abraham (grandfather of Israel) in Gen 12:1-3 and gets a blessing from God. What a testimony against Israel that a Canaanite woman know who their Messiah was and most of them rejected Him…
I hope you keep reading and exploring. Feel free to question all you want. These things can be upsetting to deeply held views but they all make perfect sense at the end of the day and your appreciation for what Christ has done for you will increase exponentially. To not follow Paul is to disobey Christ today. While God Himself does not change, the ways in which He deals with mankind over time does. We need to understand what He is doing today that we respond accordingly.
“SO, apparently, they were preaching the same gospel, hence FELLOWSHIP, to different audiences.”
That is what the NIV and other “new versions” will demonstrate. One gospel to both groups. The NIV is a deliberate perversion of truth in so many ways it’s not practical to go into it here.
“Also, by extolling the virtues of the KJV, you neglect to mention that the “new” testament was not written in King’s English but in Greek. So, there is a higher authority than the KJV, and I suggest you get a copy of an interlinear (word for word) translation with the Greek (and Hebrew) text, a Strong’s Concordance, and an actual Greek dictionary.”
I don’t speak Greek. I’ll never learn Greek. I couldn’t care less about Greek, or Hebrew for that matter. God speaks English. I have a word for word transliteration of Gods word in the KJB. Language does not equal authority. God confused the languages in Genesis chapter 11 at the tower of Babel. God unconfused the languages in Acts chapter 2 during Pentecost. Language is not a problem for God. He can communicate effectively in any language. Choose the right Bible (translation from the textus receptus) in whatever language you speak and you have Gods word in your hands. In English that would be the KJB; and James the King had nothing to do with the crafting of the text, he simply authorized the project.
30 minutes, give a listen. This guy is a riot and very smart too!
GCP . . . your views have in now way upset my “deeply held views”. I have my beliefs through my own studies, my own prayers, my own salvation (through fear and trembling, thank you), and my own revelations – and your experiences have no bearing upon mine in any way, outside of this forum, and, frankly, I am not one to judge another man’s servant, even though I may agree with, disagree with, consider, or reject your perspective.
“But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.” – Paul, Philippians 1:18
But as for what Christ has done for me and for humanity, I have a simple question for you (FORGET all of the parsing and dogma and crap that separates Christians from one another) . . . WHY was Christ obedient unto death? That is, WHY DID GOD send Jesus to die for the sins of Jews and Gentiles?
Uhm, wasn’t disobedience man’s original sin? Didn’t Paul say we should emulate him as he did Christ? Didn’t he also say that to die is to live?
I gather just from those words (there are more but I will leave that up to GCP) that we should look forward to dying as we are transformed from this body of death.
There are many clues to what we can find after death, hell is the complete opposite of heaven. There was no room to the north of heaven but there was plenty of room in hell, heck it keeps growing even.
Anyway, here’s the thing, the reward in heaven is to be in the presence of the Lord, to see the beauty more beautiful than Lucifer ever was and to rejoice in such that Helen of Troy was a skank by comparison if I would even dare to compare.
Sorry for my paucity of words, I have not the bible teaching of Stuck or the study of GCP.
There is no sun in Heaven. . . .
“And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it
for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.”
Revelation 21:23
I appreciate your response, EC, and I do not mean to be cryptic or short, but my question was for GCP. If he responds, I will further and explain why I asked the question to begin with. If he does not . . . then I will explain, to you. That said, yes, “original sin” is at the heart of it.
. . . And as for what teaching or learning you may lack, well, please remember that Christ recruited some fishermen (and others, of course), and together they changed the world. Because they were pure in heart. “Blessed are they . . . ” And, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians, love – “charity” in KJV – is the greatest of all gifts – “knowledge will vanish away.” 1 Cor 13
“They will know (us) by our love.”
“(through fear and trembling, thank you)”
I am sorry you fear so.
Romans 5:1 KJB… “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”
Salvation is a huge relief.
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.”
Paul, Philippians 2:12
I sort of thought you would recognize the words of Paul
Once again, nubian, I say that not all words apply to you but only if you can recieve them. I believe GCP’s outlook hinges on this word:
Love Comes from God
…17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.
“7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.”
1 John 4:7-9
We could do this all weekend, EC, but we are not in opposition to one another; my point to GCP is that Paul is NOT Christ, and we are to follow Christ (as Paul did)(as Peter did)(as John did), even if we fail miserably in the process.
A preacher I know once had a kid stop him outside the grocery store and ask, “How do I know if I am going to Heaven?” He smiled and said, “Kid, that you even care is a pretty good start.”
And regarding original sin . . . “mankind” did not choose to sin. The state was thrust upon us through our “mother” Eve, who was deceived. Adam followed. The account in Genesis is quite sketchy, so we have no record exactly of what happened between them (so I am paraphrasing here), except that Eve gave Adam the fruit and he ate of it.
Prior to that moment, Eve walked with God. She was holy and pure, as God made her. She was not separated from Him by sin (yet) . . . which means that Eve DID NOT know what a lie was, when the serpent cornered her in the garden. He approached her and asked “Can you eat of every tree?” She was NOT standing at the foot of the tree of knowledge, pining for a bite.
When the serpent told her, “Ye shall not surely die . . . ” she believed what he said because she was innocent, NOT because she believed that God was liar (which the serpent implied) . . . because she did not know what a lie (or liar) was, because she did not know good and evil, only good.
Regardless, one may argue, she “chose” to sin, right? So, she chose to die, in essence. But the rest of mankind never got that choice. We were born to it. Doomed to it. Condemned to it. WE NEVER CHOSE ORIGINAL SIN; IT WAS CHOSEN FOR US.
Christ is God’s blood sacrifice for the rest of us. His blood reconciles us from the separation (exile from the garden) that WE never chose for ourselves, so Christ is proof that God’s love is stronger than a lie, than death, than sin. So . . . all we have to do is accept the truth.
Anyway, I have never heard anyone break it down like that, neither pope nor preacher nor pastor, and I have numerous verses to prove my point, and I will stand toe-to-toe with anyone who wants to complicate the message, because God loves us enough to set us free, and anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher.
“my point to GCP is that Paul is NOT Christ, and we are to follow Christ (as Paul did)(as Peter did)(as John did)”
It is not possible to follow Christ BOTH as Paul and Peter did; or Paul and John or James or even Christ Himself during His earthly ministry. Their purposes are completely different. Until you understand this most basic fact, scripture will continue to elude you. Clearly you are a saved brother in Christ and well worth talking to.
Of course only Christ is Christ. Peter is not, Paul is not, James and John are not. Each one had certain marching orders from Christ. Paul’s orders were different from that of Peter, James and John’s and a serious look at each demonstrates the point clearly.
Everything I have written here is testimony to exactly this point. The Bible has contradictions, yet all of it is true.
James says a man is saved by faith plus works. James 2
Paul says a man is saved by grace without works. Romans 4
Polar opposites. How can both be true at the same time for the same person? Answer: both are true, but not for the same people at the same time. Both are true for different people at different times for different purposes.
To work out ones salvation with fear and trembling is to take the salvation one already possesses and to “work” it accordingly. We are not “working for our salvation” we are working salvation out in our lives. A continual process one can never find the end of by the way.
Phil 3:12-14… “Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
It stops when we cease to physically be. Knowing the serious nature of the things we speak, we ought to move carefully, deliberately, with fear and trembling especially for those who know not peace with God.
“WHY was Christ obedient unto death? That is, WHY DID GOD send Jesus to die for the sins of Jews and Gentiles?”
Because God Himself is the only one who can satisfy the judgement we (humanity) deserve. He is not only Just. He is the Justifier as well. That makes Him very, very good to us. We are unworthy of the gift He Himself provided. Only a fool would not accept that which is now offered.
Rom 3:26… “To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”
GCP . . . WE – you and I, your parents, grandparents, all of humanity since the garden – do NOT deserve judgment; we DID NOT choose to fall; this fallen state was FORCED upon us. We were born into sin because Eve chose to partake of the fruit. Adam did likewise. They chose death. WE did not.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
And yet, we die because THEY chose to sin and thereby condemned us to it. The death of Jesus is an act of justice from God, BY God, on our behalf.
HE set us FREE from the death that we were/are born into.
Rom 3:23… “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Rom 5:17-18… “For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
YES – we ALL sin, because WE NEVER HAD A CHOICE. We were innocents . . . condemned to death by OUR MOTHER AND FATHER.
You would have chosen the same. We all would have. To say otherwise is to avoid personal responsibility.
Adam and Eve were created in God’s image; as close to perfect as ever humans were, and still they fell short. We’ve been devolving ever since.
I don’t understand what makes you think you’re any better or even different then they.
If you never had a choice, you’ve nothing to be sorry for; thus no need of a Savior. You’re innocent after all.
“My parents made me do it!”
Sound familiar?
Genesis 3:12-13 KJB… “And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”
paul’s ministry
beautiful song, full of truth.
There’s enough bullshit in this thread to power AOC’s Green New Deal for a month.
This thread is almost gone and it isn’t my intention to revive it. I simply want to say that my preference is for less. Less is more. Sure, it’s fun to explore all the ramifications of various scenarios but in the end, it’s quite simple even a caveman could understand that all people are sinners and they need to repent. The Catholic deal is that you can fuck around all your life and then hit the saved button a minute before croaking. The Viking deal is no salvation needed, Odin is cool with it.
Again, it’s my opinion that folks aren’t interested in the whole case studies thing before conversion, that comes after. I like reading some portions when they answer some question I might have but I do not care for dispensationalism, or any of the other stuff. A degree in theology is not going to save me.
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38 Then Saul dressed David in his own tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. 39 David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.
“I cannot go in these,” he said to Saul, “because I am not used to them.” So he took them off. 40 Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.
Excellent point!
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