Several (or, many) folks here believe that the root cause of America’s social/cultural demise is related to an abandonment of Christian principles. As just one major example, folks believe the beginning of the end started when prayer was taken out of schools.
That seems to me that you are in favor of a MORE symbiotic relationship between church and state. The article below (from Russia Insider) makes a reasonably logical argument that the Church MUST cooperate with the State to achieve the end goals of Christianity.
Question: — Would you like to see more or, less, involvement between Church & State in today’s America ? Why?
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Me?
I want to see ZERO involvement between Church and State …. even to the point of eliminating all tax exemptions for the church and, removing all Ten Commandment displays from the public square.
I’ll state my reasons “why” in a future article — “Why The Ten Commandments Are Un-American“. Really.
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SOURCE ARTICLE
Separation of Church and State Violates Common Sense and God’s Will – It’s an Abomination
Summary: Russia is doing the right thing, striving for cooperation between the Church and the government. Meanwhile, America languishes under its pretensions of the “separation between Church and state”.
Before a President signs any law into effect, he should check the Scriptures first, to make sure it is a Godly law. Before Congress passes any bill, they should check the Bible, to see whether Jesus approves of that bill. Before the Supreme Court rules on any case, they should consult the Scriptures first, rather than the Constitution . . .
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“For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:4-5).
Which thoughts are we supposed to submit to Christ? According to the Holy Scriptures, we are commanded to submit “every thought” to Him. That includes our thoughts about politics and government. In other words, the “separation of Church and State”, as it is taught today, is both unbiblical and unorthodox.
What areas of your life does the State control? They control your money (through taxes), your homes (through building codes), your children (through public schools), and virtually every other area of your life (through numerous laws, some of which you know about, and many of which you don’t).
So, if we are going to kick the Bible out of politics, that means we have to kick the Bible out of almost every area of life. And that is just the way the State wants it. “Believe whatever you like, but don’t actually start DOING what the Bible says, or you will get in trouble.”
Not only does the State control your money and your children; the Government also controls many churches. In America, did you know that the IRS can revoke the tax-exempt status from churches who speak openly about politics? As a result, many churches hush up because they love money, and so they cease to be relevant.
The State doesn’t mind if you believe in Jesus, just as long as you do not think Jesus is in charge. The Government doesn’t mind if you think Jesus is King of Heaven. But if you start acting like Jesus is King of Earth, then you are going to ruffle a lot of feathers.
The Lord’s Prayer itself is very political: “Our Father, who is in Heaven, hallowed be your name. Your Kingdom come, Your will be done ON EARTH as it is in Heaven. . . .” Jesus wants God’s will to be done right here “on Earth”, including those parts of Earth we call “Russia” and “The United States of America”.
All people on Earth are commanded to live under the authority of Jesus. And Jesus teaches us that every high thing exalting itself against the knowledge of God must be brought into obedience to Christ. That includes the government. Before a President signs any law into effect, he should check the Scriptures first, to make sure it is a godly law. Before Congress passes any bill, they should check the Bible, to see whether Jesus approves of that bill. Before the Supreme Court rules on any case, they should consult the Scriptures first, rather than the Constitution.
Traditionally, the Orthodox Church has not called for a separation between Church and State. Rather, Orthodoxy has called for a harmonious symphonia of mutual cooperation between them. St. Justinian, an early Orthodox Christian emperor, wrote about the relationship between Church and state as follows:
If the one [the priesthood] is blameless in every respect, placing trust in God, and the other [the sovereignty] rightly and becomingly ornaments the slate delivered to him, there will be splendid harmony [symphonia] which will give to humanity whatever is for the best. (Novella 6)
.
Russia is doing the right thing, seeking for cooperation between the Church and the government. Meanwhile, America languishes under its pretensions of the “separation between Church and state”.
What do you think? In the Supreme Court, what should a judge’s priority be? Which document should be considered most important: the Scriptures, or the Constitution? How we answer that question reveals whether we are thinking as Christians, or as pagans.
For the longest time I agreed that religion was “the opiate of the masses”.
Now I wish that the masses would return to religion, it kept things so much more civilized.
For a time, TV was the opiate, it seems to be getting replaced by digital content, but it is still the same idea: A screen that focuses all your attention, to distract you from the world.
Why, at this very moment, we are all completely distracted by the daytime tv series called: “Shiffty’s Impeachemt”, while the Fed is busy printing us into another bubble, also at the same time that the Afghanistan Papers have been released, indicating that the War on Terror has been nothing but a multi-Trillion dollar boondoggle for the MIC.
But instead of discussing any of this, we are talking about religion.
go figure.
so, I vote to outlaw all religions, force every TV preacher to give up his tax free lifestyle, of asking for “A thousand dollar seed from you, and you will be re-payed in ways that only God can see”
Put all the pedo priests in the rectory basement, fill it with gasoline, and light it up.
Do the same to the sino-gogs, and the mosks, they are all filled with hypocrites, who believe in books that they seem to be willing to die for.
replace the entire construct,
with a new religion, that believes an atmospheric gas is responsible for all their problems, and make a little girl with fetal alcohol syndrome, it’s high priestess, and put her image on every screen.
It seems to me that in Western Europe, having an official state church has worked against actual religious faith. More people go to mosque each week in England than attend services at the Church of England. Same could be said of the Catholic Church in Spain. Because I don’t want Christian faith to subside in the US, I don’t want religion to be interwoven with government. They’ll just fuck it up more than it already is. I’d rather have Christianity be rightly considered subversive than taught in public schools where it would just bring about eye-rolling and contempt.
On the other hand, I don’t think we need to take “in God we trust” off of the currency or remove ten commandment artwork from the Supreme Court building. Why? Because fuck ‘em, that’s why.
I do think you are correct. I think the bigger problem is that so many have taken up the belief that the government is the religion of their faith.
We humans are a funny species, capable of doing the most heinous crimes against humanity, or the greatest testaments of selfless love. The difference being, in my opinion, the closer one draws to the eternal, the greater man is delivered from his animal instincts.
And so it is with civilizations, societies and nations; the greater the freedom to seek after the divine, the closer we become to living according to the image of our creator.
I will note posting of the 10 commandments, or any other type of outward show has very little to do with creating an environment conducive to seeking after God, but allowing the freedom to do so, or other freedoms such as being able to pray in school or other public places, allows man to draw near to his creator.
So, to sum up, the more you try to enforce the separation church from the state, the more man will act on his baser instincts and miss the opportunity to commune with his higher power and the greater your society will fall into disrepair.
“That seems to me that you are in favor of a MORE symbiotic relationship between church and state.”
no, you’re failing to grasp the situation. at america’s founding, christianity was presumed. “… we have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious (i.e. christian) people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” john adams. what they sought to avoid in separating “church from state” was intra-state warfare over church doctrines that were seen to be unrelated to governance, that’s all.
but in modern america the tribal exo-state has pushed to separate governance from christian morality, and in fact to define governance as outright hostile to christian morality, and modern american civic and popular culture has followed that lead, seemingly irredeemably. thus we have legalized theft, increasing drug pollution, and other moral insanity, ever increasing. this is unsurvivable (as was intended by the tribal exo-state). thus, if anything does survive this, yes, in the future you will see either 1) a unified church/state again such as typified european history for 1300 years, a sort of “repeat that school grade”, or 2) tribal clan factions (such as exemplified by li’l pooh and Nobody) warring with each other forever like europe until a unified church/state arises to pacify them all.
I would agree and the Constitution has been wholly inadequate to rein in those baser instincts of the fouler among us; Particularly inside the government. Religion is of little use without belief.
Separation of church and state is an oxymoron if you are a statist like most here on TBP are. Because they have turned to government for all the answers to societies problems and divided it up in classic Hegelian dialectic fashion into two camps called Left and Right. I am amazed at the leader worship here and their belief that salvation comes from their favorite ruler. It’s their cult and every cult needs a cult leader. So it’s leader worship. We already have in this country a theocracy. American’s god is government. The government knows this and works hard to conceal this fact from them.
You can’t separate church and state if the state is your church.
“You are not Christians. You are not Jews. You are not Muslims and you certainly are not atheist. You all have the same god and it’s name is ‘government’ You’re all members of the most evil, insane, destructive cult in history. If there ever was a devil, the state is it. And you worship it with all your heart and soul.”
“So it’s leader worship.”
does self-worship fit into your ideology here? ’cause those who drivingly insist on complaining about “leader worship” and “the state” and “statists” seem to think very highly of themselves.
Self esteem is not the same as self-worship and neither is it the antithesis of leader worship or statism. That’s really just a strawman argument.
“Self esteem is not the same as self-worship”
what is on display seems to go WAY beyond mere self-esteem. got people reserving the right to kill whole populations on their own judgement and recognizance – this is not “self-esteem”, it’s not mere self-aggrandizement, it’s not even mere self-centeredness, it’s … well, self-worship just seems to fit the behavior observed.
Another strawman out of your barn. Nothing in my comment say’s implicitly or explicitly reserving the right to kill whole populations on their own judgement or recognizance.
You are making the strawman argument and assumption that if one does not worship the state, then it has to be the case that they are worshiping themselves. What a stupid argument with zero logic. Get through puberty first, then return for the debate.
“Nothing in my comment say’s implicitly or explicitly reserving the right to kill whole populations on their own judgement or recognizance.”
in your comments, no. in your comments’ practice, yes, as displayed on this board and many other boards by … well I can’t say by many, but by a fair number. as everyone sees and some eagerly anticipate.
“Get through puberty first”
would you address the actual issue then?
Stucky, do you want to make rules for others?
How can anyone in or interested in government avoid their own beliefs?
Even if they promise to avoid their beliefs, how can you be sure they are not practicing their beliefs?
What happens if/when Islam becomes the dominant religion in the country?
Keep them separate!
Total separation is key.
For The Churches benefit!!!
Stucky, I love you brother, but you’re an idiot on this one. The Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule are the foundational ideas behind Western Civilization, and there’s no other civilization that even comes close to the peace and prosperity of ours. Without the Ten Commandments, and a general acceptance of those ideas, guys like you who don’t own guns would be easy prey for guys like me that do. I would just come take your shit and you couldn’t do anything about it.
Is your belief in the Ten Commandments at the root of your inability to take Stuckys shit?
INABILITY? Stucky has written entire articles with hundreds of comments disparaging my almost supernatural political prognostications complete with illustrations of him gutting me. I think my ability to withstand withering fire coming from this direction has been proven over the years. Nobody lasts long around here with a thin skin.
That is simply not true.
I will make that crystal clear in the upcoming article I mentioned. (I won’t get to that article until next month … at the earliest.)
I think a truly great country needs 3 things.
1) homogeny
2) an agreed upon moral belief system.
3) hot blond blue-eyed women
So, I would say a state union with white, christian hot women and JUST ME.
I’d be the Ghengis Khan of white, blue-eyed western civilization.
Can we have a few redheaded women with green eyes?
EC, you have a front hole?
Simply put, Jefferson created the brilliant legal device of “God given rights” as a firewall to put those rights beyond the jurisdiction of political tyrants, who always chip away at those rights. He created a new category of rights and enshrined them in the Consitution. THERFORE, even if you don’t believe in the concept of “God”, you’d better support them as a matter of policy, as they’re defined as out-of-bounds to politicians, AND remain immutable.
“He created a new category of rights”
he didn’t create them, they were a product of developing protestant christian thinking.
Slowly, but surely our benevolent big brother has been taking those inalienable rights from us.
The commandments: thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not kill seem to preclude the very idea of government (which can not form or function without performing the former and the latter). So I a not sure where that leaves us.
Add Christ’s example of nonviolent resistance to political forces and I fail entirely to see how one (religion) can even relate to the other (government) on a logical level; much less how they would work toward a common goal.
Maybe it was the Catholics/Orthodox who invented the idea that opposites attract.
Now if you create caveats- like don’t steal unless the person with money is a greedy or incompetent asshole, then steal all you want as long as it will be controlled and distributed by smart and virtuous people. And don’t kill unless someone tries to kill you first or unless the greedy or incompetent asshole refuses to comply with the smart and virtuous people. Then maybe I can see how the two could work together.
But taking the example of Christ’s life and some of the commandments at face value, the state and religion do not seem to match up.
our Greta, who is of Soros
shallow by thy name
their kingdom come, their will be done,
in hell as it is on earth.
Give us this day, our daily carbon
and forgive us our emissions
as we virtue signal to others,
and lead us not into sedition,
but deliver us a pizza.
HA!
Had to do more for that than just upvote!
For wine is for drinking and for dancing forever and ever.
Say When!
Anything government touches turns to crap!
So, keep it away from my church and my religious beliefs.
Every dictator in history has not only first taken the guns away from the people, he has also removed faith in Yehovah God from them and replaced it with atheism. The results can be seen in the way the people behaved a generation or two down the road, when all hope was gone.
A German follower of Christ, who encountered the Russian soldiers conquering Germany at the end of WWII described these creatures as only the hull of a human. That is what is left when atheism is forced on a people. They turn into zombies without soul and spirit. One effect is a steep rise in mental illnesses and suicide in our days.
This is why one of the founding fathers stated that “This constitution is written for a God fearing people only and wholly inadequate for any other”.
The reason why the leftists and others, too are pushing so hard to get God out of everything, is accountability. When government officials are no longer accountable to our creator God, they can do anything they want totally unrestricted, and make people believe that their rights are given by the government instead of Yehovah. At least that’s what they believe and act upon. And that is the only reason why evolution was invented, to explain Yehovah God out of the picture.
This is also the reason why churches have been persuaded to become non-profit corporations. Because as a corporation the entity has entered into a contract with the state and is now bound to the state and ultimately controlled by the state.
Hitler, too had his ways of getting the churches to look the other way and not interfere with his atrocities and genocide. He simply threatened to confiscate their assets.
The word church, we commonly find in our English bibles, is a total misnomer and invention anyway. The Greek word commonly translated into “church” is ekklesia, which in the Greek understanding is a governing assembly, like a city council and court.
In the days of Moses the Hebrew word was “kahal”, which was translated into the greek Scriptures as ekklesia.
If one reads the Torah very careful, one can see that the kahal was not only a body of people coming together for worship. The kahal was the governing assembly already then. They selected judges, often referred to as elders, to have their disputes mitigated. Capital punishment was frequently carried out in the kahal, by those elders and judges. In difficult cases the high priest was consulted as the highest judge among the people. If the high priest struggled to decide the case, he would consult God himself, the supreme judge of the universe.
The assembly and government, or “church and state” as we would say today, was absolutely inseparable in the days of Moses. And that was and is what Yehovah wants.
But what is generally called “church” today has very little in common with the assembly in the days of Moses or the ekklesia, the apostle Paul was establishing.
Yehovah God gave us HIS commandments, because we are incapable to govern ourselves by our own laws. History evidences this. The further a people has strayed from the commandments of Yehovah the more brutal and bloody its society became. The French revolution is just one example of humanism’s finest. Cannibalism among natives is another.
But the diligent reader already knows how the story ends. Man in his Lucifer inspired rebellion to become god is now on fast track to throw off all remaining restraints to ascend the long aspired thrown. However, once arrived at Armageddon the participants on the wrong side of the battle will find out, that this throne is already occupied and the King will not render it, for the simple reason that HE created not only HIS throne but all of us. That will be the day when the true believer will finally be vindicated and their oppression will end once and for all.
On which side will you be on THAT day?
“This is also the reason why churches have been persuaded to become non-profit corporations. Because as a corporation the entity has entered into a contract with the state and is now bound to the state and ultimately controlled by the state.”
Nonprofits are controlled by the state as well — via the threat of removing tax exempt status if they say anything that disturbs the political status quo. Churches are enormously land rich and cash poor. Huge property tax bills (if tax exempt status was removed) would decimate nonprofits. The state has them by the balls too.
“The further a people has strayed from the commandments of Yehovah the more brutal and bloody its society became. The French revolution is just one example of humanism’s finest. Cannibalism among natives is another.”
Are you familiar with the history of Christian European and Christian American imperialism? Brutal and bloody may be one way to describe it.
“Are you familiar with the history of Christian European and Christian American imperialism? Brutal and bloody may be one way to describe it.”
not as brutal and bloody as the cultures they replaced. as I’ve heard one american-indian exclaim, “thank god for burger king”.
Thank You. The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.
The church is simply those individuals called out of the world system [ man-made and often demon-inspired ] into fellowship with their Creator.
“Hitler, too had his ways of getting the churches to look the other way and not interfere with his atrocities and genocide.”
Leave AH out of this. He did nothing of the sort. And, BTW, contrary to ((anti-German propaganda)), he did not confiscate guns.
The Greek word commonly translated into “church” is ekklesia, which in the Greek understanding is a governing assembly, like a city council and court.
First off, and most importantly: How’s Ms. Freud? I hope that she is getting ever better.
For my two bits: I think that a society would function best by:
1. having a moral foundation based on the tenants of religion, most especially the Golden Rule: “Do unto Others…”
2. having the smallest government possible, with its foundation being the US Constitution and the trifecta of preservation of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness (h/t llpoh). The US Constitution is based on the Anglo-Saxon Law, with a healthy dash of Locke, Cicero, the Bible, &c. That should be the only link between the functioning of the government and religion, most especially the cult of greta.
“Religion,” today has been fuckered by the leaders of the cult of personality, stating with (in my living memory) Jim Bakker and his wife mascara-smearsalot. Politics today has likewise been fuckered up by the NFL-ing of the main political “parties,” thanks to the 24 hour news cycle, the corporatization of the “news media,” in which most people rabidly support their party and rabidly piss all over the opposing party; just like pissing on the Dallas Cowboys and rooting for your team.
Same may hope for a large meteor, others may go down with their party. Me? I say fuck off, I’m moving to Grayson County. Either I live with my family in a self-sustaining/community-supporting way, or I go down to Solzhenitsyn’s Organs, guns blazing.
Which church? THERE is problem #1. Government needs to go altogether, thus rendering the point moot.
We have a government today that murders, steals, and covets, and elected officials that murder, steal, covet, commit adultery, and a lot worse.
One does NOT need any direct association between any essentially political organization called a “church” and the government, to achieve the goals everyone likely supports – protecting the rights of individuals, both personal and property. The FOUNDATION of Christian and other religious principles that the founding fathers drew upon to create the Constitution, etc. was certainly influential, but there are millions of profoundly moral people on this planet that do not espouse the Christian faith, or any other for that matter.
“I’ll state my reasons “why” in a future article — “Why The Ten Commandments Are Un-American“. Really.”
Looking forward to it.
I would like to see more actual Christians in our governments, especially at the top levels. Hell, I would like to see more actual Christians in the church.
It would be a better place.
Depends on what your definition of “Christian” is. And everyone has their own…thus the fundamental problem of using “labels” rather than principles, as a guidepost.
Nietzsche used to say the only christian was hung on a cross [ and the only Baptist was beheaded by Herod ]. Call me a disciple, good enough.
Did you know Nietzsche?
I agree the word Christian has lost all relevant meaning.
I’d like to see LESS involvement between the government and its unofficial but acting religion, Judaism. Just look at how many dual citizenship’s there are in congress and senate between Israel and the US. Just watched a 2009 interview with Ohio congressman James Trafficant asking why anytime a bill was being considered people were running around asking what Israel thought of it, if they were okay with it. He died in an ‘accident’ on his property a few years later. Read the Talmud, the only value jews have is what can be done for jews or what jews can get. They do not believe in US Constitutional values which is why they should have no voice in government, same for muslims.
I’d like to see MORE of Christian values, or at least permissiveness for them like YES posting the 10 commandments or nativity scenes on public property. The founding fathers were clear the the constitution could only be useful to a MORAL people.
What is the church? Today it’s a group of believers sealed by the Holy Spirit by their trust in the gospel revealed to the Apostle Paul by the ascended Christ. A gospel the 12 needed to learn from Paul (Acts 15, Gal 2). It consists of saved souls united by belief in the holy scriptures; levels of understanding varying across the board. The church in this physical reality is the pillar and ground of the truth. Paul speaking to Timothy…
1 Timothy 3:15 KJB… “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”
If a large society of people want to function constructively together, that venture cannot be accomplished with out truthful guiding principles. Chaos is the result, a result we see all around us at present. The state requires the truth which the church has if it is to be an effective protector of human liberty.
The church is not religion. Religion defined by that which man does (his own efforts toward achieving any righteousness whatsoever) in order to please God or to assuage His anger. In this dispensation, there is nothing man can “do” because Christ did it all. The offering of human works for salvation is an insult to the gift, freely offered. Christ crucified on the cross as our substitute.
I would therefore like to see far more involvement by the church (saved people) with the state, leaving religion by the wayside. Religion is poison. I would like to see the state far more involved with the church, consulting it for the wisdom it alone possesses and is MORE than willing to share.
The manifold wisdom of God is manifest in Paul’s epistles. Comprehending the distinct message the risen and glorified Christ (God) gave to him is the key which unlocks the scriptures. The vast majority of “religious churches” miss this entirely. Speaking personally, I am no political leader, not by a long shot. I do have much to share with any who would listen. The world would be a FAR better place if it listened to Paul.
Romans 12
The law was given to Israel to demonstrate their inherent unrighteousness.
Romans 3:20 KJB… “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
Most people walk the Left -Handed Path and do not even know it. Jesus states it in what is known as The Sermon On The Mount. Why? Paul explains:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16
“But we have the mind of Christ.”
Beyond incredible!!!
“A gospel the 12 needed to learn from Paul”
and not from jesus? if you compare jesus’ teachings with those of paul they diverge markedly. after all, “these taught me nothing.” paul was a pharisee of pharisees uninformed by anything jesus taught, and it shows in his letters.
“if you compare jesus’ teachings with those of paul they diverge markedly.”
That much is absolutely true. And for critical reasons. The rest, not so much.
Paul received direct revelation from Christ. Revelation that the 12 never could have known; as that information was hid in God since before the foundation of the world.
Galatians 1:11-17 KJB… “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.”
“Paul received direct revelation from …”
… something, yeah.
matt 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [b]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
vs
Icor 4:14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
and
piil 10 I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment
have you ever noticed that, in paul’s letters, jesus never is anything more than a doctrine, to be promulgated by paul, who in the jewish manner is god to his congregants.
John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
vs
Icor 14:37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. (contrast this with Icor 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? – paul solves the division issue by 1) leveling all divisions then 2) proclaiming himself the sole authority and leader)
You derailed your own argument when you quoted Paul saying that Christ is not divided and that people should not be claiming to be his (Paul’s) or Peter’s. You carefully omit those passages where Paul says to imitate him as he imitates Jesus. Where he admits that he is first among sinners. Where he says that he preaches Christ and him crucified. You concern yourself with Paul’s administrative duties and use his directives to dispute his gospel.
“You carefully omit those passages where Paul says to imitate him as he imitates Jesus.”
you’re not considering what he says in those passages. notice how he doesn’t say to imitate jesus or follow the holy spirit. jesus is quoted as saying not to have leaders or teachers, but paul sets himself up not just as a leader and not just as a teacher but as an absolute authority – because paul knew nothing of jesus’ teachings and was a pharisee of pharisees and in pharisaical judaism that’s exactly how it works. paul travelled over land and sea to make many christian converts, and when he made them he stuffed them right back into a synagogue under his personal direction and authority and control. where the church remains to this day.
“You concern yourself with Paul’s administrative duties”
he’s not supposed to have administrative duties.
Wow, you can really pump air into your argument. How do you reconcile the words of Jesus to the seven synagogues of Revelation? Oh wait, these are gentile churches, how is he turning them into synagogues? Paul strayed so far from that religious structure that he even forgot that he shouldn’t insult the chief Pharisee. He censured Peter for Judaizing and now you claim that Paul was doing the same on a larger scale. smh.
gman, respectfully, you need to study what Paul actually has to say. Not what you’ve either been told or read in a source outside of scripture.
Paul… the first actual Christian, the pattern for believers hereafter. Until the churches translation.
1 Timothy 1:15-16 KJB… “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
Not only did Paul not know anything about Jesus’ teachings ….. he hardly knew anything whatsoever ABOUT Jesus’ actual life and life story.”
Quite likely the most ignorant thing ever you’ve communicated on this site… congratulations. Paul knew more about the Lord that any other human who has ever existed. Bar none.
“have you ever noticed that, in paul’s letters, jesus never is anything more than a doctrine…”
Galatians 6:14 KJB… “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.”
Christ gave Paul a “doctrine” very different that the one He taught the 12 during His earthly ministry.
“ 2) proclaiming himself the sole authority and leader)”
Romans 11:13 KJB… “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:”
Paul is our apostle. Not Peter or the 11; they are the apostles of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Paul The Usurper!!!! I wish your post would have gotten 100 thumbs up.
There is a book, one of many I’m sure, that claims Paul promoted the story about Jesus being divine – that Jesus was in fact just a prophet. It relies on the willful ignorance of folks who are loath to actually read the bible instead of reading about the bible.
“For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
you should finish that quote, because paul goes on to say that he finally went to see the apostles to determine if his “revelation from god” was in fact legitimate. what kind of revelation from god inspires checking with a human to verify its validity? I’ll tell you – the kind of revelation that’s really just an idea that pops into your head. seeing the apostles paul decided he understood things better than they and from there on just barreled forward, travelling over land and sea to make many converts in the pharisaical manner, with himself as the patriarchal and final authority over a synagogue.
consider what he says to the corinthians, “test yourselves to see if you are of the faith! examine yourselves!” but saying of himself, “as for me, it is a very small matter to be examined by you or by any human court. in fact I do not even examine myself.”
Dude, what bible are you reading from?
nor did I go up to Jerusalem to the apostles who came before me, but I went into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. 18Only after three years did I go up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas, and I stayed with him fifteen days. 19But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.…
“you should finish that quote, because paul goes on to say that he finally went to see the apostles to determine if his “revelation from god” was in fact legitimate. ”
Dead wrong. Paul was informing the leaders of the Kingdom program that God had in fact “shifted gears”; that Israel was fallen and that the gospel Christ revealed to him was now “in charge”. Read 2 Peter 3… here Peter is explaining to the Kingdom saints why the Kingdom was no longer “at hand”.
Read Acts 15. Read Galatians 1-2. Slowly. The language is laser focused.
Uhm, you obviously never read Acts of the apostles. If you notice the story about the jail cells being opened by angels, the jailer says his Roman citizenship cost him a lot. In the same sense, Paul’s conversion cost him a lot. The disciples didn’t lose much and found it easy to go back to living as Jews. Paul is a symbol of the previously unredeemed who believed that we were going straight to heaven despite our being heathens. He says the disciples had nothing to teach him after he spent 3 years in the desert communing with god.
“He says the disciples had nothing to teach him after he spent 3 years in the desert communing with god.”
he spent three (fourteen) years communing with god, and then goes to the disciples to confirm it? gal2:2 “It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.” doesn’t sound like a revelation, sounds more like standard pharisaical practice – leadership by and authority of the most knowledgeable – and paul found the disciples not up to his pharisaical standards.
“god on earth” hand-picks and spends three years teaching these guys – and paul learns nothing from them? that he didn’t certainly shows in paul’s letters – he never quotes anything jesus taught, and says several things contrary to it but rather that are fully in accordance with pharisaical practices.
gman, you are a man after Stucky’s heart. He hates Paul with a passion. Again I ask, how do you reconcile the fact that Jesus addresses the Christian churches that Paul established? Where do we hear of the Jewish churches founded by the disciples? Did you notice that only one leper came back to thank Jesus? That leper didn’t establish any churches either but he is a symbol of each person since who has been saved. Faith would be so easy for you if you didn’t spend so much time building a protective wall around your heart.
There are three parts to salvation. We are justified [ saved ] by the blood of Christ, sanctified [ saved ] by walking as He walked, and we will be resurrected [ saved ] in a new body.
Spirit, soul and body are each saved.
Unnecessary complexity. I was saved when I realized I couldn’t save myself and trusted in Christ’s finished work on my behalf.
GCP, I agree with you. I have commented on occasion that this whole salvation business requires that you believe in a simple promise and thereby demonstrate that you believe God (that many find difficult to believe) and not the devil as Adam did.
I say Adam because both man and woman were Adam until after the fall when Adam named the woman Eve. Having pointed the finger at her, he separated himself from her and so showed how man is good and evil at the same time because of his divided self.
This business about there being none good reminds me that man’s good deeds are like used tampons. I have modified that verse with the admission that we are all niggers in the sight of god. To which Paul declares, who shall save me from this body of sin?
Jesus says “I and the father are one” – there is no division there. But I am speculating and I shall stop before Maggie comes in to call me an amateur. As we all are, of course, and anybody who thinks he’s not is puffed up.
Actually, it is all very confusing, the salvation and redemption clause that can be executed again and again until that final blasphemous commission of sin that can never be forgiven.
Which, by the way, is not really made clear. Some sin exists for which one cannot be forgiven. Don’t you think God might have defined THAT sin a little better?
What do you think? I’m pretty sure I’ve not committed it because God, Jesus or some minor saint like Jude, Thad or Simon Peter or one of the myriad (some of us are allowed to use myriad) forgotten apostles wandering around heaven with NO ONE praying to them has intervened on my behalf too many times. You might say, not unlike Blanche in Streetcar, I’ve always depended on the kindness of minor saints and angels.
Am telling you, old AF marching buddy, if you are going to decide to pray a freaking Novena to a saint who may or may not be in “position” to help, pick one of the less popular one. Am pretty sure John, Mark, Matthew and Luke are swamped with novena prayers,so be sure to pick one of the ones no one can name, but skip Judas; I suspect he may have committed the unforgivable one.
The rituals are calming. I get that. Most of the things going on in our world are completely out of our control, probably out of the control of any single entity of which we are fully aware. What can any single one of us do?
We can pray, they say. There is always Hope, Faith and (Agape) Love.
As far as a Union of Church and State?
Jeremiah 13:17-19 King James Version (KJV)
17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the Lord’s flock is carried away captive.
18 Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
19 The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive.
My aunt (Mary, not Martha… my grandmother covered all her bases) once sent me a cryptic letter which went to a lot of trouble to ask me if I understood why Rachel is weeping yet for her children.
Do you?
Does Stucky?
Donkey?
Preacher?
Anyone?
Here is how she phrased it to me…
“Why does Rachel yet weep for her children?”
Matthew 2:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
You can give it a shot (answering her) if you want, then I’ll tell you what I told her. It was GOOD.
I got an A+++
Mary was my sixth grade teacher. The school board made an exception for my father’s daughter… to be taught by my aunt. it was the only year I was NOT teacher’s pet.
“Some sin exists for which one cannot be forgiven. Don’t you think God might have defined THAT sin a little better?”
Not today, not in this dispensation. And its easily explained. It is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (strike 3) which the nation Israel AND Paul committed in Acts chapter 7 by the stoning of Holy Spirit infused Stephen.
And Paul was forgiven. That only works if God changed something up.
“….this whole salvation business requires that you believe in a simple promise and thereby demonstrate that you believe God (that many find difficult to believe) and not the devil as Adam did.”
Bravo
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—-== the planners are still believing that son of perdition
Would love your thoughts about Rachel … just skip to the last few lines of my post if you want to avoid the ramble toward the point.
Here is how she phrased it to me…
“Why does Rachel yet weep for her children?”
Matthew 2:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Maybe I should post a QOTD?
(I’m not available to reply much with construction ongoing in the house. It isn’t that I’m helping; I just feel a bit guilty at the computer with hardworking laborers working around me.)
Maggito, Do you recall the name of the ship that picked up Ishmael? It was the Rachel, the captain was looking for some of his men that had got lost at sea.
Joseph married an Egyptian woman and the people of Benjamin got thumped for that thing with the broad. Amazing how badly things went for Jacob’s favored wife but there is that law about having two wives and being partial to the prettier one. What could that be all about?
And what is going on with the repeated theme about the firstborn?
never mind
was me
As you know, I’ve written some fiction pieces, some of which would make you cry, if coyotes had tear ducts.
Rachel is a powerful name in the industry. You can bet you furry ass that if the heroine’s name is Rachel, she has powerful juju if she’s in one of my tales.
Genesis: Origins of Sibling Rivalry
Perhaps your aunt Mary wept for the children she would never have?
Front Hoolio? Do you know who Esau married to hedge his bet against Jacob’s entitlement to birthright and blessing? (I admit that was a crap blessing Esau got)
She was the daughter of Ishmael. How’s that for taking on the sins of the father’s father and sending them downchain to children’s children?
Admit it… that one was cleverer than yours.
In Ahab’s case, Rachel still has powerful juju. Symbolically.
Interesting clue to Melville’s ending where the Rachel picks up Ishmael as the lone survivor of the Pequod.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFd_KmAWn08
I will study that out and attempt to reply in a QOTD if you post one.
MG here… I think I will, but am not sure exactly how to phrase it to elicit responses from the decent people around here.
You’ll figger it out, I’m sure… ?
MG..
If I ventured to say, it would lead to several options.
Might be the simple curse Eve rec’d for all women:
“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children…” Gen 3:16
Benjamin was her last…a quick search of “was Benjamin Rachel’s youngest” resulted:
” was the twelfth and youngest son of Jacob. His mother was Rachel, Jacob’s wife. Benjamin was born during the journey that Jacob and his family took from Padan Aram to Canaan. His mother Rachel named him “Ben-oni,” meaning “Son of my sorrow,” before she died during the childbirth, but Jacob called him Benjamin.”
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p129.htm
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Matthew was a Jew and would have known what happened to Rachel as the Israelites were being led into captivity. He would have known she watched as her sons were being led to bondage….
Nothing in the Book is without reason, and Rachel may have been a foreshadowing to fulfill a prophesy (Jer. 31:15)….
and then a plenary of sort when Herod killed all the first born……?
I just looked into it a bit, don’t really know. What I might be having trouble explaining, I see fairly clear in me head….
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <<—-==
I will surely look for GCP's reply…thanks for bringing up the question, MG
As Maggie illustrated with her strop story, it is not wise to speak rashly. David’s sentence was transferred to the child. In Jacob’s case, his words condemned Rachel to death. David was talking about a hypothetical thief, Jacob was talking about a specific thief.
Okay, Front Holier than HooHooHoolio (sometimes us wordsmithers like to play with letters instead), I got another little tidbit of the riddle. Not that there is a riddle, per se or de facto, but in the way that our own travails in life, whatever they may be, are mirror images of the work already accomplished, those images are yet unfinished, much like the piecework in my aunt’s hand which will be the identical, yet much larger and more detailed, maze in her hands.
I am getting quite clever with illustration placement, eh? Even blogs have a certain architecture and structural rules.
Which specific thief do you think Jacob is talking about?
Rachel took her father’s idols. Jacob said that whoever had them should die. Maybe he was hoping Leah had taken them. Quick way to get rid of an unwanted wife.
You hit many of the points, ordie…
My aunt Mary is the quiltmaker and Bible scholar, an old maid schoolteacher who is the spitting image of her very German grandmother Martha Yerger, who married a Vollmar. Very successful merchants and scholars in the St. Louis area.
She made some spectacular quilts, some of which I own.
Not these, which are an a-MAZE-ing pair…
Initially, I thought my aunt was making a sly reference to the ongoing bickering between myself and my sister. The book of Genesis could easily be subtitled: origin of sibling rivalry…
I taught a class on Women of the Bible longagofaraway. It was kind of a tossed together project I did when I was “teaching” an adult class to see if I could hold their attention. I could, but I think it was more because they had NEVER HEARD most of the women’s names before and were fascinated to know there were women there.
So, Leah, the sister who married Jacob without his knowledge, was the mother of ten of the twelve tribes. Seems like she might get a little better press, don’t it?
Jer. 2:34…. what’s it mean?
On your clothes is found
the lifeblood of the innocent poor,
though you did not catch them breaking in.
Thanks for this.. am composing now… is not quite 6 a.m.
M G here…
I took a long drive yesterday and visited my Granny Fannie “clear up ta” Iron County. Past Ironton.
I don’t know if you’ve seen the GoPro Balloon video, but I saw it and it intrigued me for many reasons. Skip to ** to find the point and skip the ramble.
Only one time did I fly above 60,000 feet in an E-3 and it was on a deadhead back to TIK asap and we flew straight from Iceland to Tinker AFB in a lot less time than it took to get there. The navigator explained to me that the distance in knots (which roughly equate to miles but not really… find a sailor to explain it) at that altitude is much less in the upper atmosphere. He explained it pretty thoroughly… he was an “old school” navigator and seriously, after the airplane got into the air at altitude with radar operational, flying in a big racetrack orbit to see what it could see? The radar technician and the navigator were completely useless unless something quit working right. And Westinghouse engineers were that good then, so we had lots of time to chat.
He told me the reason it took less time at higher altitude was not only because the air is thinner, thus reducing wind resistance, but also because the distance is shorter. Think again of moving across a circle’s diameter midpoint or at its edge. The distance from perimeter to perimeter is less on the “edge.”
I debated with him… the earth is a sphere. There is really NO EDGE. He dismissed that with the explanation that the relative change in altitude wasn’t enough to change the perspective mathematically. That, he explained, is why we could deadhead from Iceland to Tinker (with special permission from Greenland and Canada ATC) in a shorter time at higher altitude.
I still say that was bullshit and I invite you to call ME a dumbass and prove me wrong here. Even though the air might be thinner at the “top” of the earth’s atmosphere, it is still the same distance away at every single point. So, the distance should actually INCREASE at higher altitude if the earth’s sphere has the same amount of atmosphere all the way around. While traveling faster at altitude (a lot more knots than we regularly flew) might account for the reduction in flight time, it doesn’t account for it all.
Does that problem make sense?
**The GoPro Video bugs me because if the balloon and camera were up in the air for three hours, it would have been of great relevance, to me, where the thing landed. In three hours, it should have drifted many miles/knots. Did it land a state away as I calculated it should?
So? Where did he pick the little camera up? Was it at least in New Mexico?
“and so showed how man is good and evil at the same time because of his divided self.”
The Bible is clear on this. We (our flesh) ain’t no good at all. When once saved, goodness can come from us as our spirits are quickened (made alive) by the Spirit.
Romans 7
I was reaching for a conclusion. My bad. I must have gone farther ahead thinking about the claim that when one person in a marriage fails, they are both guilty and thus become separated by divorce. That must have convinced me that although Adam was innocent before listening to his wife, he was guilty as soon as she took a bite of the fruit of knowledge.
“he was guilty as soon as she took a bite of the fruit of knowledge.”
I’m gonna have to consider that seriously. Had not seen the situation from that angle before. So many gems to be mined.
Jesus hadn’t said it, yet, but Adam was supposed to take care of Eve and love her and protect her as Christ loved his church (Greek meaning). He should have warned her about the snakes in the garden.
Definitely his fault.
Let’s not jump to conclusions. A very interesting notion for sure. A sure thing? I don’t know. Takes time to render these down to certainties. Need to hit it from all angles. See if it stands. Was that the pre-incarnate Christ in the garden? I’m thinking, yeah! This one just might stick! And that’s exciting to me; new insights.
That said, Christ didn’t love the church which is His Body till after His ascension because it didn’t exist previously. Gotta be careful so as not to handle the word of God deceitfully.
“Definitely his fault.”
Definitely his fault.
Romans 5:12 KJB… “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
Adam left her alone while he went walking and talking with his buddy God. It was his fault.
??
Funny thing about fruit; sometimes if it is bad on one side, you can just turn it over and find something worth eating.
Well said, Pastor.
Nonetheless, it is best for both the Church and government that the Church accept no special benefits such as tax exemptions from the government. The moral authority and cultural influence of the Church is, to a significant extent, related to its independence from government largesse or regulatory entanglements. It is best that goverment just leave the Church alone. Let it be.
Thanks Lars. I don’t disagree regarding the benefits. Once we take from any entity we are somewhat beholden to the same. That said, the time may come when an intelligent accountant advises me to turn my homestead into a formal 501c3 church thus taking legal advantage of certain tax benefits. My message of freely offered grace to any and all will not change.
GCP….
Might not be long ’till the bean counters get it all simplified….lol
Amazing….the king will let a village establish a sanctuary to aid and abet interlopers who break the king’s laws…..
But talk about a sanctuary on a little piece of God’s creation, to worship Him in Peace…???
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum
Did you catch that gopro/balloon video?……no worries.
I hear ya. I did see the balloon video. Fish eye lens… make a cube look round. This topic takes a goodly amount of time to digest. Lots of dis-info out there. Much sifting required.
I went to the ‘global’ thread after I typed that comment, and came back here when I was done reading it to let you know…..quite a lengthy and detailed response.
Describe this ‘new creature’ to me, if you will…..from the sound of it a snow-globe like helmet….
After the works of reading, rightly dividing, and entrusting….or did Christ die for the ungodly and it’s basically a waste of time to indulge in the scripture?
And all this time I considered the omipotent Creator of Lucifer to view him as a piss ant to be stepped on at His will……..
Jews, Gentiles……..and reprobates like me
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <<—-== looks like these boys have a shot at winning, after all
“Describe this ‘new creature’ to me…”
BREAKTHROUGH question!!! The new creature is the body of Christ. Something Peter and the 11 had no possible prior knowledge of, till Paul explained it to them. A “mystery” kept secret in God that the devil would follow through his sinister plan and have crucified the Lord of glory! Little did satan know the crucifixion would be his ultimate undoing.
Colossians 2:15 KJB… “And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”
I will allow someone far more eloquent than me to explain most thoroughly the answer to that phenomenal question. Take the time to open a Bible and follow along.
Grace and peace sir ordo…
Where did it land?
Religion is good as a guide for people. A fellow at work thinks the lack of ass whippings in school is the problem. When I was in school large plexiglass paddles were used.
In Jr. High, our baseball coach was also the shop teacher and he would take the broken bats and plane them down to 3/8″, leaving about 6″ of handle and 14″ of paddle. If he drilled holes in them, they whistled their way to the target and left little round red spots. His swing was more golf like and he would connect with the underside of the buttocks. You did not want to cross that man. He also made sure all of the teachers had one for their own use.
3/8″ paddle? That’s barely enough to put a crease on your drawers. Our shop teacher had a 2 foot paddle about 3/4″ thick and the thing was like Cassius Clay, it floated like a butterfly and stung like a bee. It put the fear of god in many a freshman.
When I was a kid, the principal had a leather strap/strop with holes in it. I only saw him use it once… I tattled on a kid in my class for giving the principal the finger after he lectured our bus about giving the bus driver grief. Mike, who NEVER forgot it. Mentions it every time he sees me. And, perhaps rightfully so, flipped him off AND stuck his tongue out. We were in second grade. I told him I was gonna tell and he flipped ME off and stuck his tongue out at ME.
I told my mother when I got home and she called Mike’s mom and then she called the principal and the next morning, Mike and I got called to the principal’s office and he got three licks with that strap in front of me.
I cried for him because I could hear how much it hurt. As I said… he never forgave me.
I learned a lesson. Not so quick to tattle. Still do it. Not so quick.
actually maggie,
a 2nd grader flipping someone off really is a big deal,esp back then–
your story reminded me of when i was in 6th grade & was on the safety patrol–i turned in my best friend 4 smoking at the bus stop–
Well, to be honest? I thought the tongue sticking out was the worst thing. I had NO CLUE what the middle finger thing was.
EC…
Hahaha…sounds just like ours, and he supplied them to a couple other teachers…..one a coach, and to the assistant principal.
I got two swats in gym shorts from Sgt. (the coach, that lived two houses up the street from us) I came home, had to tell the ole man cause I couldn’t sit down…welts from the holes in the paddle like blisters in a sunburnt pattern of the paddle.
Dad showed quite an interest, as he hollered to me a couple of times from the garage…. ‘how thick was that board?’…..how long was that paddle?’….’it had holes drilled in it like this?’….
I thought he was going to go use on ole sgt…….’and you had to bend over and grab your ankles how?……SMACK…
“Mr. H..already called and told me what you did”……..I had fibbed.
Several of us had been playing ‘basketball’ with rolls of toilet paper in boys bathrooms after lunch for weeks. Instead of a ‘swish’, we got a ‘splash’…Back then, quarters were made of silver
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <<—–==
3/8″ (thick) of hickory was quite enough to make its mark on many young butts. I only felt it once, and not from the coach, but I saw him wield his with precision.
Needless to say, there was not a lot of disruption in the classrooms. Even the frail, older lady teachers were respected.
Fear is a great motivator.
Sissy, 1/4″ plexiglas does not connect solidly like a 3/4″ pine paddle.
Victorian Leather Strop…
https://victoriancollections.net.au/items/58b8ccb4d0ceee1c508d75fb
Why my friend from 2nd grade is still not my friend.
When I was in 2nd grade, the elementary school principal had one of these leather strops hanging on a nail on the outside of his door. The leather had some holes in it and there was a bit of a whistle before the crack when he slapped it against my childhood friend’s (past tense) blue-jeaned buttocks. I believe the man had practiced the move many times.
The sign above the strop? “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” Proverbs 13:24
How’s that for Union of Church and State?
I’ve never forgotten those three licks and I didn’t receive them, only witnessed.
I don’t feel threatened by religion. The reason is this: ask them why some of them get pissy over suggestions of removing “In God We Trust” from a money whose construct is an abomination to Christianity. If they are stupid and many are, explain what that means. There should be a little noise and confusion after that.
Personally, I think the 1st Amendment has it right. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
It is pretty simple. The government cannot establish an official religion and it cannot prevent you from worshiping as you please. This opening freedom in the Bill of Rights has been so contorted by the courts that it is no longer recognizable.
I am with that.
I think the problem isn’t church and state, but rather Satan and state. State is inherently evil and sans a God centered populace who control the state, there isn’t a force capable of preventing the complete takeover of state by nefarious forces. Are we there yet?
” Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
“He promises you illumination, he offers you knowledge, science, philosophy, enlargement of mind.
He scoffs at times gone by; he scoffs at every institution which reveres them.
He prompts you what to say, and then listens to you, and praises you, and encourages you. He bids you mount aloft. He shows you how to become as gods.
Then he laughs and jokes with you, and gets intimate with you; he takes your hand, and gets his fingers between yours, and grasps them, and then you are his.”
J.H.Newman, The Times of Antichrist
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I’d planned to return to this and edit, but best laid plans of men and mice quite often burn the rice.
Every single clause of the first amendment has been violated by Congress Critters.
Unless you are a stinking bar-blessed whore of a lawyer, you cannot even file a petition in court for a redress of any grievances and, since the Federal Tort Claims Act protects just about every stinking legislator, burrowcrat and sigil servant from accountability for anything, there’s no accountability in any government agency anywhere beyond the individual level.
If you know an honest person who works in government, I wouldn’t count on it and if you know an honest lawyer currently “practicing?” (I know there’s a few here, but I assume you are settled into shuffling paperwork for a few hundred dollars an hour which really amounts to glancing over the work your legal secretary has done, initialing the memo to show the time is “billable” to you and sending the form letters filled in by a temporary typist and proofed by an editor, all of whom make a tenth of your salary, at most, on their merry way to court to get a date, for which you will charge billable hours to every single one of your clients for going to because you will stop by the clerks’ office and enquire as to any changes in scheduling, thus warranting a quarter hour charge to each of your current clients.
https://www.justia.com/injury/federal-tort-claims-act-ftca/
Putting lawyers in charge of petitioning for redress of grievances is the wolves being put in charge of the shearing.
Pretty complex and demanding question. I had to sleep on it before responding and even now I’m not sure I’m up to it.
What the Framers envisioned and where we are now are so radically different in both theory and practice it is almost irrelevant to discuss the Constitutional principles of the separation of Church and State. Suffice it to say that every fear they envisioned of the State has come to fruition.
In the modern era Jefferson’s idea of a “wall of separation” between Church and State has come to mean only half of it’s original intent; the right of individuals to profess, believe, accept, practice or refrain from a religious belief of any faith. In Jeffersonian perspective this was the secondary and lesser provision for protection, in that it is a subordinate clause in the reading of the 1st Amendment, but that the greater threat was the government establishment of religion by law. And this is exactly what has happened.
Religion, by definition, is not predicated upon a belief in what is demonstrably provable, but upon faith and a worship of God or the supernatural. Go ahead and read the definition in any dictionary and see for yourself that this is not about Christianity as so many in the post modern world will caution, but about any official authority or institutionalized system of attitudes, beliefs or practices– as government policy or laws. And that is precisely what we have today. The old Christian faith has been supplanted by the new doctrine of human equality (supernatural) enforced by laws passed by the State. For example the State demands that people believe that a man in a dress is a woman and enforce this practice via legal protections that nullify the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. Trump just did it the other day with an EO that is a tortured redefinition of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, preventing private institutions- like colleges who receive Federal Aid- from discriminating against people based on those protected classes listed in the Act. It has now been expanded to include a prohibition against individuals who attend those institutions from expressing their opinions, a clear violation of the 1st Amendment in order to establish yet another plank in the State Religion.
The State is the new Church and all the laws that compel the population to believe in a supernatural system of faith- Equality, Diversity, Globalism, AGW, etc. are the very thing that the Founders were most concerned with and the one thing that managed to occur while everyone was asleep.
Gosh, I made a throw away comment along the same lines, that people are now worshiping Trump as some sort of diety. So, yeah, the unity of state and religion has come to pass like the mother and child reunion of lore.
Job Laments His Birth
…25For the thing I feared has overtaken me, and what I dreaded has befallen me. 26I am not at ease or quiet; I have no rest, for trouble has come.”
Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong.
Corinthians 16:13
I ever tell you about the enormous quilt my aunt made for me composed of more than a hundred Bible quilt (named) blocks? Let me go find the Job blocks and get them here… may be a bit. Is a recently opened file of photos.
Some people have albums… I have file folders from different decades. From different centuries. Three centuries. Think about that…
I can look at the same people in the same places over the course of more than one hundred years through the eyes of camera lenses. Eventually, the mountains do move.
Ok…I’m going to go deep here as is my wont. I just like to go down to the most fundamental levels of abstraction that my mind allows.
So, with Church and State, let’s first think about what these Institutions really are. First, they are both clearly, unquestionably Human Universals. Everywhere Human Beings have lived and formed even the most basic societies these things have existed. So, the next obvious question would be: What fundamental Human need to do these institutions fulfill?
It’s a complex question, but as far as I can tell, it is all about Authority and Meaning or Purpose. We all, to some degree, have an implacable need to told what to do–whether we acknowledge it or not. And it’s not really a mystery…we’re thrust into this thing called sentience, in which we have some agency (Free Will) but no real control. Vonnegut does a much better job of describing what I mean than I ever could:
“To the as-yet-unborn, to all innocent wisps of undifferentiated nothingness: Watch out for life.
I have caught life. I have come down with life. I was a wisp of undifferentiated nothingness, and then a little peephole opened quite suddenly. Light and sound poured in. Voices began to describe me and my surroundings. Nothing they said could be appealed. They said I was a boy named Rudolph Waltz, and that was that. They said the year was 1932, and that was that. They said I was in Midland City, Ohio, and that was that.”
Now, there is a segment of every human population (call it 6-8%) who also have a great desire tell other’s what to do and they will make use of the natural desire most have toward authority. These people will always rise to some form of dominion over others and some of their ilk will then join and sooner or later you have a full-fledged State.
Now, for meaning, we are small, ridiculous creatures in the grand scheme of things, but also the only creatures that anyone knows of that are aware that there IS a grand scheme of things–able to conceptualize grander concepts that ourselves and our immediate surroundings. The existential weight of that would be unbearable without the notion of having some Purpose greater than keeping ourselves alive and seeking out any immediate pleasure that presents itself. But how can we possibly learn what brings us some of this Meaning when we only have the one life to live. The only answer is that we must learn, cumulatively, from all the generations that went before us. The only way this could be done in ancient times was through story.
This brings us to one way to determine what is True, in the most fundamental sense, and that is the Truest of things are those practices that iterate well for the longest periods of time and the broadest swaths of society. Let me know if some of these ring a bell:
Forgiveness – Vengeance makes all the sense in the world, but how does it iterate?>
Reciprocity/Compassion – At the very heart of civilization one could put the words “Do unto other as you would have them do unto you.”
Service – Real meaning can only really be found here.\
Balance – Reality itself seems to be set in the zone between some di-polar opposite concepts: Order/Chaos, Stasis/Change, Creation/Destruction, etc, etc. Balance iterates well.
Continual Improvement – Religions set up an unattainable ideal. It is the striving toward this ideal that both provides meaning and something worthwhile to do while we’re alive.
Mercy – hand in hand with the ideal, since none can attain perfection, all must be forgiven their imperfections.
Anyway, I have made the case and reiterate it here, that civilization is primarily a Psychological Construct and not the intellectual one that we all take it to be. Religion stands much closer to being the cornerstone of civilization that the State does.
That all said, in some answer, Separation of Church and State is a good idea, if for no other reason than to separate the Zeal of religion from the raw power of State.
That said, ideally, and Jefferson and Paine would agree, it should be a moot point as the State should have so little power as to represent little danger to religion. In an ideal society the State should be both the red-headed step-child and whipping boy of a Free, Robust and Responsible Collection of Critically Thinking Individuals known as society.
One can dream.
That was a superlative analysis and an enthralling read. You drew me in right from the get go and had me in agreement with almost every word even though I would probably have defended some counter points before I read your take. That almost never happens these days. Impressive.
If I were you and you have a little time available, I’d use that as an outline for a complete piece, flesh out a few of the bullet points with examples, maybe explain how and when you discovered some of these points with your own experiences.
Top shelf, really.
Thank you, Sir…high praise indeed.
I would very much like to hear your counter points, as they will probably contain some ideas I’ve missed.
Someday I will do some completed piece on something….the lack of time ting is an easy cop out. I don’t know exactly what stops me. Plain fear and the notion that I have absolutely zero to say that hasn’t been said better before have something to do with it.
I put some italics in your piece where I would love to see a bit more of your comments/thoughts and if you answer them, I’ll elevate it myself.
Or someone else can co-write it. Where’s sodapop? Doug?
You just write it and leave the criticism to us, the professional critics.
+10,000 x 10,000
In fact, if it could make a difference, Drud, I would get on my hands and knees and beg you to write such a piece ….
Don’t do that Stucky. I’m am interested in trying for sure. My real fear i think is that i could never get it done… there’s just too much. Just off the top of my head…i would need to go one level deeper to our need to form communitties in the first place. Somehow, way down the line i would have to work back to the idea that for liberty to present itself a society must hold ther individuals identity higher than the group. That alone is a ridiculously complex topic.
I know exactly how you feel.
I’ve written several articles that overwhelmed me. Two that instantly come to mind are, 1) the “Castle” pictorial essay and, 2) the article about why Islam is compleely incompatible with Western civilization.
As you rightly said— “there’s just too much”. Well, let me ask you a question; How do you eat an elephant? Of course, you know the answer: one bite at a time.
It took me a month (elapsed time, not total time) or so to write each one of those articles. I simply would write about ONLY ONE CONCEPT at a sitting. I would write about it … and forget about it. That way that concept no longer occupied space in my head. When it was ALL done, only then would I go back and make all the editing/revision changes. Yup, writing about just one concept per sitting … this is what works best for me.
Then there’s also this from Isaiah 41:10 … “Do not fear, I will help you …”. In other words, just make Jeebus write it for you.
Be Still…
Am offering editing/formatting services if he answers my italicized comments above.
I agree with what HSF said. That’s some really interesting stuff there from a really unique point of view.
Title here…
With any discussion of Church and State, a good definition of what these Institutions really are might serve a good starting point for mutual understanding from which debate and discussion can begin.
First, they are both clearly, unquestionably Human Universals. Explain what you mean by human universals… I assume you mean that all human societies form some form of both. Are there “other” universals?
Everywhere Human Beings have lived and formed even the most basic societies these things have existed. This could easily be cited to anthropological studies on the topic. I’m betting you could even add an interesting thing or two here from a good study on the topic.
EDIT: Here’s a decent quote from Durkheim… whole article linked below.
” For instance Emile Durkheim, in his book, The Elementary Forms of Religious Life, defines religion as “a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things…which unite into one single moral community…all those who adhere to them” (1912, p.46). ” I would accept Emile Durkheim’s comment as support for the idea it is vital to community building and helps establish moral authority. (Just some of my thoughts)
https://www.longdom.org/open-access/how-useful-is-religious-belief-in-the-anthropology-of-religion-2332-0915.1000e116.pdf
This brings us to the real crux (I admit to liking “crux”)
What fundamental Human need to do these institutions fulfill?
It’s a complex question, but as far as I can tell, it is all about Authority and Meaning or Purpose. We all, to some degree, have an implacable need to told what to do–whether we acknowledge it or not. And it’s not really a mystery…we’re thrust into this thing called sentience, in which we have some agency (Free Will) but no real control.
Vonnegut does a much better job of describing what I mean than I ever could:
from Vonnegut, Title.
Now, there is a segment of every human population (call it 6-8%) who also have a great desire tell others what to do and they will make use of the natural desire most have toward authority. (I would elaborate here to explain why so many people accept illegitimate authority when the choice is conflict.)
These people (clarify it is those who would be king, perhaps a certain type of personality?) will always rise to some form of dominion over others (or be dominated/arrested) and some of their ilk will then join and sooner or later you have a full-fledged State.
Now, for meaning, we are small, ridiculous creatures in the grand scheme of things, but also the only creatures that anyone knows of that are aware that there IS a grand scheme of things–able to conceptualize grander concepts that ourselves and our immediate surroundings. The existential weight of that would be unbearable without the notion of having some Purpose greater than keeping ourselves alive and seeking out any immediate pleasure that presents itself. But how can we possibly learn what brings us some of this Meaning when we only have the one life to live. The only answer is that we must learn, cumulatively, from all the generations that went before us. The only way this could be done in ancient times was through story.
This brings us to one way to determine what is True, in the most fundamental sense, and that is the Truest of things are those practices that iterate well for the longest periods of time and the broadest swaths of society. Let me know if some of these ring a bell:
*Forgiveness – Vengeance makes all the sense in the world, but how does it iterate?>
*Reciprocity/Compassion – At the very heart of civilization one could put the words “Do unto other as you would have them do unto you.”
*Service – Real meaning can only really be found here.\
*Balance – Reality itself seems to be set in the zone between some di-polar opposite concepts:
*Order/Chaos, Stasis/Change, Creation/Destruction, etc, etc. Balance iterates well.
*Continual Improvement – Religions set up an unattainable ideal. It is the striving toward this ideal that both provides meaning and something worthwhile to do while we’re alive.
*Mercy – hand in hand with the ideal, since none can attain perfection, all must be forgiven their imperfections.
Anyway, I have made the case and reiterate it here: Civilization is primarily a Psychological Construct and not the intellectual one that we all take it to be. Religion stands much closer to being the cornerstone of civilization than the State does. (I would add a statement as to why you believe religion to be a stronger cornerstone (and maybe why you use the term “cornerstone.” Shoot, now that I’ve included the anthropology link, you can pretty much cite to that article. It really does support this idea.)
That all said, in some answer, Separation of Church and State is a good idea, if for no other reason than to separate the Zeal of religion from the raw power of State. This could use some more elaboration, as well. Also, think about rewording “if for no other reason” because that is a weak ending to a very strong essay.
That said, ideally, and Jefferson and Paine would agree (I can find a quote from each of those dudes if need be), it should be a moot point as the State should have so little power as to represent little danger to religion. In an ideal society the State should be both the red-headed step-child and whipping boy of a Free, Robust and Responsible Collection of Critically Thinking Individuals known as society.
There, DRUD… halfway to a full piece!
You’d make a great writing instructor. That’s almost exactly how I saw it in my mind.
Maggie is a published author and has outlined her writing background. She is a patient teacher and has put up with a lot of my nonsense. I should bring her an apple but as the rebellious student, I normally opt for putting a tack on her chair.
I am less published as an author than as an editor.
I prefer criticizing other people’s writing.
If Drud can answer just a tad of my questions, it will be a winner.
I am planning the Rachel question… I think I will review and see what the Preacher Man came up with…
You would make a decent comic.
My wife had a great one liner the other night-
I had spent the day slaughtering and butchering a big hog all by myself in 10 degree weather and by the time I came in I was beat. I’ve been whittling a chess set piece by piece in the evening but I told my wife I was too tired to whittle.
To which she replied in the cutest voice, “You a whittle tired?”
I thought it was extremely funny.
didn’t even have to be there..
Thanks Maggie. I’ll see if i can get anything done on Monday.
Thank YOU… It is wonderful when such a well composed comment pops up. Especially in one of Stucky’s posts. LOL…
Keeping drud’s comment up
good article,senor stucky —
i’m not commenting directly on what you wrote but this 2 minute clip dovetails w/what you wrote–
during last night’s democratic debate,moderator judy woodruff asked the candidates if they would like to ask forgiveness from any of the other candidates or would they rather give a gift to another candidate–
there was stunned silence,and most made fools of themselves–
https://dailycaller.com/2019/12/19/democratic-candidates-debate-gift-apology/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=11332
Pleased as a pig in shit to see another QOTD with 100+ comments.
ummmm ….. AWESOME comments in this thread!!!
I wish I could have participated in the debates. I wish I had the time to even now respond to comments. But, I can’t due to issues I’m facing …. (not to mention this thread is dead.)
[Note: I responded to “flash” because he said he “loves me like a brother” and to “gman” because of his brilliant comments about Paul the Usurper.]
================
Last Sunday Ms Freud was transferred from an LTAC hospital to a sub-acute (rehab) facility. By Wednesday they almost killed her. Seriously.
I will write an article about it …. not to bore you but, to expose Ashbrook Nursing Home (Scotch Plains, NJ) for the frauds they are. Not to mention that I am going to file official complaints with Medical Boards here in NJ, and also see if I have legal recourse, etc etc
Ms Freud was transferred to a wonderful facility just this morning (Dec 21). She is doing well.
Am glad to hear that. You are still in my thoughts… I visited Granny Fannie yesterday.
Had a couple little rocklets to place. Is Holy Ground.
All is good creekside and pondside.
Granny Fannie got a nice plastic wreath with butterflies. The pink scarf is mine. Grandpa was a World War I veteran. He warranted my other scarf. The rocklets and tulip bulbs are placed.
By the way, since I visited Baby Dau Hasty’s little grave and posted a photo of “her” and her mother’s grave (from Mary Christine’s article about abortion that almost broke YOUR comment count record?), someone has been taking care of BOTH of their graves. I placed a pink monkey there for the little soul, but someone had already been there.
I think that is nice.
