What you see in this video is an electric car at a charging station with a shorting cell setting off all the rest
The fire cannot be extinguished with water
No recycling place will take the car's remains because of the toxic chemicals the batteries contain
Feel The Green pic.twitter.com/yGXfzDwHlr
— RickyLee (@RickyLe80284150) July 12, 2021
-----------------------------------------------------
It is my sincere desire to provide readers of this site with the best unbiased information available, and a forum where it can be discussed openly, as our Founders intended. But it is not easy nor inexpensive to do so, especially when those who wish to prevent us from making the truth known, attack us without mercy on all fronts on a daily basis. So each time you visit the site, I would ask that you consider the value that you receive and have received from The Burning Platform and the community of which you are a vital part. I can't do it all alone, and I need your help and support to keep it alive. Please consider contributing an amount commensurate to the value that you receive from this site and community, or even by becoming a sustaining supporter through periodic contributions. [Burning Platform LLC - PO Box 1520 Kulpsville, PA 19443] or Paypal
-----------------------------------------------------
To donate via Stripe, click here.
-----------------------------------------------------
Use promo code ILMF2, and save up to 66% on all MyPillow purchases. (The Burning Platform benefits when you use this promo code.)
It is my sincere desire to provide readers of this site with the best unbiased information available, and a forum where it can be discussed openly, as our Founders intended. But it is not easy nor inexpensive to do so, especially when those who wish to prevent us from making the truth known, attack us without mercy on all fronts on a daily basis. So each time you visit the site, I would ask that you consider the value that you receive and have received from The Burning Platform and the community of which you are a vital part. I can't do it all alone, and I need your help and support to keep it alive. Please consider contributing an amount commensurate to the value that you receive from this site and community, or even by becoming a sustaining supporter through periodic contributions. [Burning Platform LLC - PO Box 1520 Kulpsville, PA 19443] or Paypal
-----------------------------------------------------
To donate via Stripe, click here.
-----------------------------------------------------
Use promo code ILMF2, and save up to 66% on all MyPillow purchases. (The Burning Platform benefits when you use this promo code.)
Click to visit the TBP Store for Great TBP Merchandise
Greta is seen here with a guy named Abas Abdikarim Bakar who was caught transporting automatic weapons in Sweden
Praise Allah for her understanding, infidel.
Wow how did you manage to get a thumb down in less then 15 mns?
Muslim hate?
Swedish actress from A-list acting family doing her bit at the direction of her handlers to make a black male/ white female photo so all da little white girls can follow her lead. How charming.
Petruchio and Katherine.
In my great state of Oregon, I’m not allowed to pump my own gas. But any electric car owner can plug in their vehicle for recharging. Something seems wrong with this.
Sheeeit! And it didn’t even need effing antifas to light it like in Paris
https://newsrnd.com/tech/2021-07-14-incidents-on-the-sidelines-of-july-14–294-cars-burned-in-france–nearly-250-arrests.B1grnXBhT_.html
When the left talks about going “green”, they mean the folding kind of green.
That’ll buff right out.
The sinking of the Conception and the deaths of 34 tourists who were unable to get out of their berths was most certainly caused by lithium-ion batteries. My sailboat was docked in the same harbor and I’d watch these guys heading out and these dive tourists would always be carrying ridiculous amounts of electronics so as to record, edit and share their “experience”. The guy who owned a sailboat next to mine worked on that ship for a time and would grab lobsters while the dive tourists were all busy filming each other. My female black lab would go hang out on his boat and eat lobster tail. Fun times for her.
Why does “going green” always involve my green going?
Why should we use readily available petroleum when we can pay China through the nose for rare earth minerals? /sarc Stop being so selfish and start putting China first.
Bahaha
Saw a story the other day where a fire department looked at their water usage after putting out a Tesla fire and calculated that it takes about 20,000 gallons to put out a fully engulfed Tesla. California is truly screwed.
Would have been 30,000 put the law says you got to save some for the Snail Darter.
Assuming the vehicle manufacturer isn’t liable (just spitballing here) would the insurance company of the car that lit off be liable? To an established amount, leaving the owner on the hook for the remainder of damages?
I think product liability only extends 18 yrs max so the mfgr would probably be liable in this case but what about the future?
I’d guess there are battalions of lawyers just itching to mine a new claim category.
Battery manufacturer. Dendritic growth (sharp needle like structures) cause internal short circuits in the battery, which overheats then catches fire. Manufacturing defect, usually caused by lack of clean materials (most battery types are best made in clean room conditions but are not).
Free marshmallows and wieners with every car purchased. Maybe they can install vending machines with them at all charging stations.
More pollution in 5 minutes than my 1992 Volvo has put out in 30 years. And much more toxic.
Aaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!! That was AWESOME! Can ya do it again?
Where is Ralph Nader when you need him?? Can you EVEN imagine the uproar if that sort of hazard went on in the 70’s?
Its like the Pinto, but you don’t have to slam into it from behind.
New book title for Mr. Nader: Tesla – Terribly unsafe at ZERO speed.
“Fuel cells directly convert the chemical energy in hydrogen to electricity, with pure water and potentially useful heat as the only byproducts. Hydrogen-powered fuel cells are not only pollution free, but also can have two to three times the efficiency of traditional combustion technologies.” https://www.californiahydrogen.org/wp-content/uploads/files/doe_fuelcell_factsheet.pdf
There is still much work to be done on fuel cells since they contain hazardous chemicals. But nothing like the energy storage batteries we see exploding all the time. With a fuel cell, the energy is stored in the hydrogen instead of the battery. So no more batteries. But what about all the wasted kinetic energy that is recaptured when the vehicle brakes are applied? Don’t we need a battery for that?
Is there an alternative to a battery? Air brakes that have been used extensively on trucks for decades store energy in the form of compressed air, created by a compressor system / tank powered by the truck’s engine. Could the kinetic energy be captured by a light-weight compressor place in service as the vehicle “brakes” are applied, and reused in a turbine connected to the wheels as acceleration is again demanded? Why not? It certainly would not catch fire.
Hydrogen is currently created by processing of oil and gas, but could also be created by the electrolysis of water. Electrolysis takes energy which could come from safe nuclear power. Yes skeptics, nuclear power can be safe and green and is in all of our futures, like it or not.
Is any of this easy? Nope, but it is not as difficult as some may claim. Let’s work on true “green” systems that make potential sense.
Henry- I have been posting the future of hydrogen fuel cells here for years, only to be told that it is not possible. I have posted videos of hydrogen powered cars, municipal hydrogen powered generators etc. that are actually in use today. I have shown H2 refueling stations next to gas stations where H2 is produced on site from natural gas and THEY STILL won’t buy it.
Nothing and I mean NOTHING will sway these peeps away from gas and plug-in vehicle.
Might want to investigate a little thing called The Laws of Thermodynamics.
Sure thing Anon, you may want to investigate your lack of knowledge.
The bottom line for ALL of it is that when you end the government free security services for foreign oil, free disposal and full liability protection for nuclear, massive subsidies for hydroelectric, wind, solar, ethanol, and all the rest of the bullshit, AND get the government OUT OF THE WAY, the market and the tens of thousands of creative inventors, will come up with countless alternatives that the market can then pick and choose from based on their personal needs, geographic suitability, cost, true environmental benefits, or whatever specific criteria that each consumer wishes to use. That pretty much ended the day the US signed the treaty with the House of Saud in the early 1900s, and its been downhill and government-manipulated ever since.
Fact check:
True; after all the Hindenburg didn’t explode, it just burned completely within a few seconds. /s
The original post showed a so-called green vehicle on fire in a charging station. I agree these cars are not green. My comment was to simply say there are options to fossil fuel vehicles, and true scientists / engineers would have no argument with that position. Hydrogen is one option, but it is a very good one. The hydrogen must not be produced from natural gas or we have gained nothing, still using fossil fuels. So I proposed electrolysis. Will fossil fuels run out some day? Yes, no question. Substitute technologies will have been developed long before then. Whether we develop these technologies because we know fossil fuels will eventually run out, or we want to curb anthropogenic harm to our planet now, or any other reason, it does not matter as it will have to be done.
The laws of thermodynamics have nothing to do with what I wrote. Here is a reference.
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Thermodynamics/The_Four_Laws_of_Thermodynamics
Hydrogen fuel cell cars exist and look / operate very well. Here’s one from Honda , a 2021 model. Imagine that. It has a 360 mile range before a hydrogen refill is required. The median range of gasoline-powered vehicles in the US is about 400 miles.
Many countries are moving toward a hydrogen economy and the reasons for this trend are varied. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe; oil is not. Some countries don’t like fossil fuels, and some are just tired of being held hostage by oil-producing nations. Using the Hindenburg disaster (1937, over 8o years ago) as a reason to not move forward in this direction shows a very-limited vision.
Keep slinging mud or help with solutions whether they be in the form of resistance or support.
You are writing completely half-assed bullshiff.
From your original post:
>But nothing like the energy storage batteries we see exploding all the time.
Unfortunately hydrogen gas is also pretty explosive, if mixed with air.
From your last post:
> The hydrogen must not be produced from natural gas or we have gained nothing, still using fossil fuels. So I proposed electrolysis.
Oh great. And the electricity required to run the electrolysis comes from where exactly?
Also for someone who has a minimum understanding of chemistry: How do yo ensure you’re only cracking water molecules in your electrolysis process? Because for example if you have just traces of dissolved salt in that water, you will also produce chlorine gas and sodium. So the whole thing becomes a major problem of pre-purification of the water, which can be an energy-intensive step by itself.
>Hydrogen fuel cell cars exist and look / operate very well.
Great, but how do you store the hydrogen, large-scale?
Think about it from a chemistry perspective: why do you think crude oil formed over millions of years, and stayed like that in the ground, over aeons of time?
Because in an anaerobic environment, for a certain ratio of hydrogen and carbon, crude oil is the lowest energy level that can be reached by chemical processes. Which means -relatively speaking- crude oil is the stablest and densest molecular form possible.
So all other hydrogen-based molecular forms are either larger in volume, or less stable (=more likely to be explosive, also in an aerobic environment), or both.
In summary your [and the EU’s] “hydrogen economy” is just another pipe dream of uninformed do-gooders.
(I’m not proposing we should start producing synthetic gasoline now nor in the overseeable future – but one can for sure rule out gaseous “solutions”, and I’d also right away discard Methanol as it’s fucking poisonous, so maybe Ethanol even though that still has a too low boiling point.)
So think a little deeper before accusing others of cherry picking!
Yup, hydrogen is explosive. So is gasoline. That’s why it works in ICE’s.
The electricity for the electrolysis can come from relatively green nuclear energy.
Yes, electrolysis requires the water salts to be removed to work well. Desalination and reverse osmosis are two techniques, although they are energy hogs as you stated. So there is work to be done there. I believe in the ingenuity of humans to solve this problem.
Hydrogen storage is being solved and stations added “At the end of 2020, 553 hydrogen refuelling stations were in operation worldwide. 7 additional stations were added in the first few weeks of this year and concrete plans are already in place for 225 additional refuelling station locations” https://www.h2stations.org/press-release-2021-record-number-of-newly-opened-hydrogen-refeulling-stations-in-2020/. Hydrogen tanks for cars are in use, as evidenced by the Honda. I am sure storage can be improved, but there are obviously working solutions. At one time, there were certainly less than 553 gasoline stations, and look what we have now.
Liquid hydrogen is less stable than gasoline, no argument there. If you have the chemical expertise, solve it. Additives can add stability.
Crude oil is energy dense, but it will run out, and we can’t wait millions of years for it to reform, even if we did have the exact same conditions again. The only known equivalent to oil for energy density is the atom, which beats oil hands down.
CNG vehicles store natural gas in tanks where it remains in a gaseous state, so there are already what you call gaseous solution in place, so “ruling them out” contradicts facts.
Science communities are pursuing a hydrogen economy. It is one potential alternate to a fossil fuels economy. Again, whether one dislikes fossil fuels or thinks oil will run out or become too expensive makes no difference. A replacement to oil will be needed. This is neither “do-gooder”, nor “completely half-assed bullshiff”. If you were to design an alternative to oil, which still has us all driving around freely like we do today, what does your solution look like?
I have put a lot of thought into this, and will continue to do so.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-fuel-basics
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-electrolysis
Well you tried.
Somehow you made the curious omission that as a basic requirement for your hydrogen economy we’ll need to build dozens, maybe more than a hundred new nuclear power plants [just in the US.]
Newsflash: a hydrogen refuelling station doesn’t store hydrogen.
And interestingly you skipped the only feasible approach for a hydrogen distribution network: switching the existing natural gas pipeline system to hydrogen.
“ingenuity of humans” cannot make desalination much less energy-intensive, as it would need to overcome thermodynamic laws. A salt, when it is dissolved in water, releases energy when doing so, and that means at an absolute physical minimum you need to reinvest that energy to get the salt out of the water again.
CNG is actually liquid. It takes a lot of energy to compress natural gas so much that it goes into CNG (or LNG) state. So you need to add that to the energy balance of CNG cars, when comparing to gasoline driven cars.
The “do-gooder” applies, as the superficial onlooker only sees ‘when I burn hydrogen only water vapor comes out of it, so it’s the perfect fuel’ – which isn’t true in the first place as parasitic oxidization of nitrogen (which is 78% of the atmosphere) always happens at higher combustion temperatures, and then you have all the hydrogen supply network problems I mentioned and many more I didn’t mention.
I told you some before:
At minimum it would still be a liquid at room temperature and some distance above.
Ideally it’s boiling point is at least above 100 degrees Celsius. (This makes the creation of explosive mixes of it’s gaseous form with the atmosphere highly unlikely.)
It’s self-ignition temperature is higher than 200 degrees Celsius.
It can be extinguished using water.
It’s not poisonous to humans, animals, and plants.
The molecule only contains hydrogen and carbon, plus if needed oxygen atoms, so burning it releases no extra problematic substances.
It doesn’t self-decay, neither in enclosed storage nor in open contact with the atmosphere, even at higher storage temperatures.
It can be completely degraded by naturally occurring bacteria etc. within a few years, to make impossible any long-term ecological disasters from it.
It’s relatively easy to synthesize large-scale from water, coal or similar basic carbon sources, and/or air, with little purification of the resources required, and without any poisonous or otherwise excessively dangerous intermediate products (or needed catalysts) in the chemical process.
Now choose yourself from the existing known chemicals! (No, humans will not be able to invent a new, unknown-in-nature chemical compound covering above requirements.)
I gave my suggestion already, with my rather limited knowledge in the chemical synthesis field: Ethanol (but too low boiling point), so even better 1-Butanol.
Thanks to the TBP site for allowing this conversation to happen.
Again, the original post showed a so-called green vehicle on fire in a charging station. This was a battery fire, and there are few products more toxic than today’s batteries, especially burnt ones. I was looking for alternative energy storage devices to toxic batteries, and discussed compressed air. That morphed into a discussion of alternative fuels; companies spend lots of money in that arena, so many people consider this necessary research for many reasons.
Yes, production of hydrogen requires a significant amount of energy to produce and compress, and so many more power plants. But if we are producing hydrogen instead of gasoline, the amount of energy required to produce gasoline from oil (from pumping it out of the ground to the finished product) must be subtracted from the requirement.
Many articles that I have read show hydrogen is stored in tanks at refueling stations. Some may store the gas in a metal hydride. The method of storage matters not, but yes, hydrogen is stored on site. If you have a link that contradicts that, please send it; I am always willing to learn.
Natural gas refueling stations are supplied (I believe, have not researched this) via a low pressure utility pipelines, like to homes. Could this be used for delivery of hydrogen? Why not? The use of existing natural gas pipelines to transport hydrogen is certainly a potential.
The energy required for a desalination plant is nowhere near the thermodynamic minimum to remove the impurities. That is the area where we may be able to improve the process and energy efficiency.
CNG vehicles that run on natural gas have the gas stored as a gas (not a liquid) around 3000 psi when full. Methane makes up ~90% of natural gas The critical temperature of methane (temperature which above, a substance cannot exist as a liquid, no matter how much pressure is applied) is -117F.
.
This temperature has rarely been recoded anywhere on earth, so the millions of CNG vehicles in operation have CNG tanks, not LNG tanks. Maybe the small amounts of propane, butane, etc in the natural gas are liquefied at that pressure and typical ambient temperatures, but most of the volume by far is gaseous. There are LNG trucks and tankers, where the tanks are supercooled to -260F to transport the gas, but that is a different topic. Hydrogen critical temperature is even lower, at -400F. NASA uses liquid hydrogen, cryogenically cooled. Road vehicles use gaseous hydrogen.
There are always by-products, like that produced from the nitrogen interaction, but in a fuel cell, it is very minimal. I agree, no fuel is perfect. Again, if you were looking for a replacement for oil and gas for whatever reason, are hydrogen-powered fuel cells a potential? Looking at all the car companies pursuing this, I would argue yes. Here is an article discussing a fuel cell power plant in South Korea. Are the Koreans kidding themselves? I doubt it.
Your discussion of the properties of methane is interesting, but unless we can efficiently produce methane from hydrogen, that requires the continued use of natural gas which is not an alternative fuel. I have read some articles about converting hydrogen to methane, so maybe it can happen. It would certainly eliminate a lot of the problems. Someone much more knowledgeable than me will have to come up with that. Maybe if we again get serious about teaching our kids real science and math, it can happen.
Ethanol C2H6O is already in use from corn, and makes up about 10% of current gasoline content. But it is produced using massive amounts of oil. Some believe the energy derived from the entire process is net negative. Can ethanol be synthesized from hydrogen or some other non-oil-based material? How about 1-Butanol C₄H₉OH? I don’t know. I leave that to others.
>the amount of energy required to produce gasoline from oil (from pumping it out of the ground to the finished product) must be subtracted from the requirement.
Yeah, so little much is that?
And what about the energy needed to build those new nuclear power plants?
>Many articles that I have read show hydrogen is stored in tanks at refueling stations.
Useless statement, without noting how much is stored at those stations. Keep believing it’s as much [energy] as in the underground tank of a gas[oline] station.
>Some may store the gas in a metal hydride.
That tech has the problem it cannot store/release at high speeds, i.e volume rates.
I learned something here: I wasn’t aware CNG is completely gaseous still.
I had driven a CNG car from a tiny rent-a-car in Australia while on vacation but wasn’t able to make range determinations as the tank level “indicator” were three LEDs (car falls back to gasoline when CNG is empty, just as every engine start happens with gasoline, as explained to me by the owner.) The refueling hookup [available at about every third gas station in Melbourne area] seemed so flimsy I assumed from that it must be mostly liquid passing through.
>Natural gas refueling stations are supplied (I believe, have not researched this) via a low pressure utility pipelines, like to homes.
No. The longer-distance natural gas pipelines run on high pressures, only on the local distribution network it is reduced to low pressure (for safety reasons.)
>The energy required for a desalination plant is nowhere near the thermodynamic minimum to remove the impurities. That is the area where we may be able to improve the process and energy efficiency.
Well the difficulty is to direct the invested energy only to the few salt ions, not to the vast majority of water molecules. And it’s not like the Middle East sand states wouldn’t have paid lots of money decades ago already for improvement of their desalination plants.
Reverse osmosis with pressure recirculation is the best we got, and that once again ignores the massive difficulty that if your to-be-treated water contains other nasty contents it will quickly ruin your semi-permeable membrane(s).
Read the user guide for the Katadyn Survivor 06.
>There are always by-products, like that produced from the nitrogen interaction, but in a fuel cell, it is very minimal.
I wrote combustion. A combustion engine running on hydrogen is not a fuel cell.
>Ethanol C2H6O is already in use from corn, and makes up about 10% of current gasoline content. But it is produced using massive amounts of oil. Some believe the energy derived from the entire process is net negative.
It is net negative, no belief necessary. The whole show is just an indirect farm subsidy.
I repeat: all “solutions” for mobile power (cars, planes) running on gaseous sources (meaning gaseous at room temp) are a dead end.
For the ground-based transportation, it would be easier and more effective to build [European] railway style trolley cables above every long distance street than to go large scale with this hydrogen crap.
When the green machine can’t be recycled because the burnt by products are too toxic…Priceless! *Snort*
Could they be ground up and suspended in that ice dam over at the Fukushima Nuclear Plant? Of course the machine that ground the vehicles up would have to be ground up, along with the shipping containers, maybe the ship that carries them. Sounds complex, but Elon Musk is up for the job.