Societal Collapse? Dream until your dream come true.

Guest Post by

This morning, you opened your phone and started scrolling. Your screen presented you with the usual updates: the nth wave of plague, the growing supply chain crisis, and two nuclear powers exchanging confrontational threats. You yawned and went to start your day. Collapse gets old fast. Chances are the threat of imminent destruction didn’t stop you from hurrying to work.

But to some, collapse can be a thrilling possibility. Keep scrolling, and you’ll eventually come across its devotees: they include backwood fundamentalists, deep green radicals, apocalyptic cults, and pessimistic online doomers, to name just a few.

The collapse of society can seem to hold an opportunity. Imagine no longer having to clock into work or pay taxes. Imagine money losing its importance when beans and bullets hold all the value. Imagine scheming lawyers and bankers getting their due when their wealth belongs to those strong enough to take it. Imagine a blank slate for those who see no place for themselves in our corrupt civilization.

Collapse enthusiasts tend to share a basic implicit assumption: if society as we know it ceased to exist, they and their ingroup would be better off in some important way. Sometimes, social ills seem so entrenched that no other way out exists than for the system behind them to self-destruct. Others see the social order as fundamentally stacked against them, with any hope for advancement requiring its total reset.

These collapse scenarios and the restructuring of society that follows seem plausible. One might logically assume that the complex legal and economic structures that allow for property, debts, lending, and governments to redistribute resources are extremely fragile. It would certainly seem that a physical disaster sufficient to obliterate infrastructure and kill large swathes of the population would leave the survivors in an unrecognizable world of anarchy.

But collapse is not a theoretical construct. Human history has seen both natural and man-made disasters many times before: the historical record offers us examples of deadly plagues, trade collapse, total war, and the dropping of atomic bombs. And contrary to popular expectation, the record of such disasters suggests that the legal and economic systems that we live under have, in fact, displayed amazing durability.

It is very difficult to identify natural disasters or wars that lead to the sudden end of civilization as it existed before—or even to a full collapse of everyday life.

Pushing Paper Through the Plague

If you heard today that a plague was coming that would rapidly kill between 30 and 50% of the general population, you might reasonably expect this to lead to the collapse of society. It’s hard to see how obligations and social accounting could survive such a massive event. Some might even see it as a chance for a new beginning.

But this catastrophe actually happened in the historical record, and when it did, the direct ancestor of our own society continued a remarkable level of its day-to-day functioning. The bibliography of any book about the Black Death in England is laden with references to tax receipts, court cases, and parish death records. Much of what we know about the plague comes from records generated by the continuous operations of the very institutions that one might expect to completely fall apart in a super-mortality event.

The English law courts sat with only minimal interruptions even during the brutal first wave of the Black Death from 1348 to 1349. The Court of Common Pleas conducted its full end-of-year term in 1348, while the Court of King’s Bench sat uninterrupted at York. In 1349, the Court of Common Pleas continued regular operations at Westminster. The King’s Bench operated at Lincoln, remaining “surprisingly busy.” It appears that the courts were forced to adjourn only for May and June of 1349, the very peak of the epidemic.

Evidently, the courts had busy dockets even as litigants, judges, and attorneys succumbed to the plague left and right. In fact, the very pace of the death was likely driving much of the litigation: property changed hands at an accelerated rate, heirs sued each other over their shares of unexpected windfalls, debtors died, and creditors disputed over who would seize the silver and furniture.

Arguments, legal nitpicking, and the cross-examining of claimants to estates went on as usual, even as the wagons of the municipal corpse collectors creaked past the courthouse windows. At the end of the process, the only result was paper in the form of writs and orders, bearing the wax seal of the court. The successful litigant would have taken these papers away, and traveled home through a surreal scene of fresh graves, shuttered homes, and people wandering the roads proclaiming the end of days. In all likelihood, the winner of the case would himself die later that year or in the next spring, and the process would repeat.

What is missing from this grim picture is the expected widespread anarchy. If a manor house is still standing in 2022, the current occupant’s chain of title likely traces back to orderly inheritance proceedings conducted during the Black Death.

Law and governance did not just persist as usual during the Black Death. The power of both the state and the courts actively increased in response to the challenge, much as they have during modern disasters. The ancestors of today’s credit securement processes evolved rapidly during this time: “Penal bonds, punitive remedies under detinue of charters, and uses all came into vogue because their utilization encouraged more members of the upper orders to stand by their commercial obligations.” Records show that by 1352 “the use of penal bonds increased dramatically, and they were also used to enforce debts.”

The executive function of government also remained largely unimpaired by the Black Death. Between 1348 and 1349 it was recorded that many laborers, expecting the imminent end of the world, had absconded from their jobs into idleness, or were demanding greatly increased wages to do any work.

In response to this disaster-holiday mentality, the Council of Edward III issued the Ordinance of Laborers in the June of 1349, which decreed that everyone under age 60 must work, and workers may not receive wages higher than pre-plague levels. The ordinance also imposed price controls on food and prohibited alms for able-bodied beggars. By 1351, a strengthened version of this ordinance was being actively enforced through legal prosecutions against violators, and the English state was largely successful in imposing mandatory employment, along with wage and price controls, during the remainder of the economic crisis.

The Black Death did not bring on any great social reset—in fact, survivors experienced the very opposite. In the chaos of mass death, the state enforced obligations to work and fulfill debts with increasing stringency. Eventually, laborers did gain financially from their increased bargaining power. But this was a slower process that took a generation or two to fully make itself felt, with no immediate dramatic reordering of society.

There was only one road to escaping financial and social debts during the Black Death, and it was traveled by plague carts carrying bodies.

A Pension Named Apocalypse

Modern states have had no more trouble than premodern ones in keeping up business as usual under adverse conditions.

At the close of the Second World War, Berlin was in ruins. Its residents underwent food rationing and the complete loss of luxuries like coffee and chocolate. Apart from a period lasting a few months, many essential employees and low-level bureaucrats continued to wake up, clock in, work, go home, and do it all again the next day. By 1946, reconstruction had put many of Berlin’s essential services back to work.

For those who stayed in the city, many features of life went on with remarkable continuity even in the face of wartime violence and destruction. A conductor who started his job in 1935 would likely have operated the streetcar, received a paycheck, and paid rent normally up until about April of 1945, despite the bombing of Berlin and intermittent destruction of the tracks.

If he survived and emerged from the rubble, he was almost certainly back to work by 1946, transporting workers for the reconstruction efforts. He would deposit his paycheck into his account at the same bank and likely kept paying rent to the same landlord. It is likely that our conductor never missed more than one filing, at most, for any tax year. By the 1946 tax year, revenues were stable enough that the occupation forces could run balanced budgets for domestic costs.

Despite the military defeat and a change in regimes, a number of bureaucratic bodies and obligations continued functioning after the war just as before. Pension schemes in particular have shown a surreal persistence. In 2019, the German government was still paying Third Reich-era German state pensions to foreign citizens in a number of different nations. A decree signed by Hitler in 1941 had established payments for foreign volunteers of the Waffen SS. In an example of bureaucratic persistence, the post-war German government went on to pay them for decades.

Hitler died in his bunker as Berlin burned in April of 1945, and his country suffered unconditional defeat. Yet the paper rolls of foreign volunteers were somehow preserved, transferred to the appropriate offices of Allied-occupied Germany, and in 1949 came under the jurisdiction of the newly-formed Federal Republic of Germany. Public employees somehow located thousands of foreign veterans in scores of foreign countries and began mailing out checks drawn on the West German treasury. Our hypothetical conductor likely retired in the 1970s with the same pension plan he had signed up for in the Third Reich.

Bureaucracies and other large institutions sometimes survive because of sheer inertia. Most people do not actually have better options than showing up to work, even when the paychecks stop. Afghanistan’s civil servants continued showing up for months after the Taliban victory despite not getting paid.

But in many cases, they also survive because they are actually performing important functions. Someone has to keep the lights on.

Why Trade Never Ends

If bureaucracy is resilient, then trade is eternal. Far from being a recent development of modern technology, archeological evidence shows global trade predating the Iron Age. In the 3rd millennium BC, tin flowed from modern-day Cornwall through central Europe and the Mediterranean. The Arabian Gulf connected Mesopotamian societies with the Indus. Weights appear to have met similar standards from Britain to the Middle East, staying remarkably stable for over 2000 years. In the long run, there is no disaster in human history that has permanently ended trade between regions and continents.

What makes our society unique isn’t global trade per se, but the level to which the average person is tied into highly complex markets spanning the entire world. The collapse scenarios for this system range from a supply chain meltdown to the end of cheap energy.

These scenarios could undermine trade as we know it. But shipping containers and oil did not spark the modern era of global trade, and they are unlikely to end it. The historical shipping empires such as those of the Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese rose and fell without a drop of petroleum. They were powered by wood, canvas, and humans’ insatiable desire for global commodities like sugar, coffee, and spices. The seas were often lawless—merchantmen fitted cannons for a reason. But the insecurity of long mercantile journeys was a risk many found worth taking long before global sea powers like Britain and America could guarantee safety on the journey.

Pre-industrial technologies persisted until relatively late in the modern economy. Later, the last great sailing ships conducted profitable world trade in bulk commodities, notably Australian wheat and wool. The famous “Cutty Sark,” one of the last merchant sailing vessels, primarily shipped wool from Australia to the mills of Britain at the end of the nineteenth century. The “Grain Races,” informal contests between sailing vessels, continued into the late 1940s and involved shipping bulk wheat by sail into Britain. In the event of any civilization-threatening energy crisis, it wouldn’t take long for the age of sail to return. In some market niches like the wine industry, sailboats are used for shipment even today.

Particular trading partners rise and fall, but trade endures throughout history. Partially, this is because trade is good at absorbing local disasters. The destruction of one territory, like Roman Judea in the first century or Iraq in the twenty-first, sends out waves of refugees that offer their labor elsewhere. The event usually entails the rise of new markets for opportunists. Expansions like those of the Mongols, Islamic armies, and European colonialists were responsible for such destruction, but also created massive new territories within which trade could take place.

Even during active wars, trade goes on. The Russia-Ukraine conflict is one of the most recent examples. The amount of Russian natural gas flowing through Ukrainian pipelines actually increased in the weeks following the invasion, with Russia paying transit fees to Ukraine in full even as it rained missiles on the country. While conventional state-on-state warfare is reducing cities such as Mariupol to rubble, Ukrainian and Russian bureaucrats are evidently working together, and are clearing payments. These fee payments are presumably being used to purchase military equipment to use against the other.

Despite this overall continuity, serious disruptions in global trade can create downward spirals for huge swathes of society. At a minimum, basic goods become inaccessible as prices stay high. In worse scenarios, societies might have to reorient themselves in major ways to access new markets. But often, these scenarios only reinforce existing institutions.

Following the Soviet collapse, both Cuba and North Korea underwent major food shortages, with the latter seeing between 1-2% of its population succumb to starvation. In both cases, both power structures and daily life stayed remarkably continuous. Cubans continued to work in the fields in order to survive, despite no formal jobs existing. In North Korea, food became a political tool used to reinforce state loyalty. Instead of heralding a new economic order, the historical examples of trade collapse show that they usually enforce the existing one. Rather than liberating alienated workers from their jobs, its effects usually drive them down to subsistence-level life.

The most cataclysmic scenarios for trade are events on the scale of the Bronze Age Collapse, a period of several decades in which the collective trade networks of the entire eastern Mediterranean all melted down due to invasion, war, and new technologies. This collective disaster prevented the ability of regions to absorb shortfall or displace each other. It left entire regions of cities depopulated. The worst-hit areas, like Greece, entered nearly four centuries of stagnation, while empires like Egypt and Assyria were forced to retreat for survival.

Events like the Bronze Age Collapse are the closest we have to expansive civilizational resets. For those who survived the invasions, the disaster entailed a contraction of daily life, enduring a harsh existence as local rulers fought to maintain themselves, and migration to other cities where life as most had known it still endured. Later generations did not view the collapse as a liberatory moment, but as the end of a golden age.

Generations later, the Mediterranean was once again a network of cities, ships, and markets. Trade has survived the collapse of civilization before, and we can expect it to do so again.

The Nuclear Option

There is one collapse scenario without historical precedent: large-scale nuclear exchange, with the casual assumption being that such an event would be the end of the world.

Official models of a nuclear exchange, at least, suggest otherwise. U.S. government estimates predict a death toll of between 13 to 34 million people for a nuclear exchange involving 3,000 warheads, with substantial additional fatalities that would result from a lack of medical care, lack of utilities, and ensuing food shortage. But even at a final death toll of 10-20% of the total population, and infrastructure destruction similar to the situation in Germany after the Second World War, the total shock of nuclear war could likely fall within the range historically absorbed by modern economies and governments.

It is not so difficult to imagine a very “mundane” sequel to such a catastrophe. Despite the horrendous loss of life and subsequent hardship, there would likely be no post-apocalyptic release from the mundane.

Given that most of society would have survived the exchange, with perhaps entire regions untouched by direct strikes, many of the same patterns as in other historical disasters would likely emerge. The chaos unfolding as people tried to contact relatives, take control of property, or enter other regions as refugees would actually overwhelm institutions like courts and essential infrastructure rather than making them irrelevant.

The largest problem faced after the nuclear strike could well be job abandonment by surviving workers on disaster holiday, feeling that ordinary things don’t matter anymore. More likely than a collapse of normal economic life is a scenario similar to King Edward III’s Ordinance of Laborers: a mandatory work requirement for all able-bodied persons.

In this scenario, it’s even unlikely that the phones and laptops go off for the last time in a nuclear conflict. Modern communications might come back online with strange rapidity due to the dispersed and durable nature of cellular networks—today, even extremely unstable regions like Somalia have cell service. Such technologies are autonomous from lower levels in the hierarchy of needs. Residents in cities that were not directly affected might well be posting on Twitter, even as they survive on thin rations of gruel unloaded from a truck each week.

Given the enduring nature of tax and financial authorities, Americans would likely be filing 1040s and paying taxes within a year or two of the event. Just like the Berlin conductor—or the citizens of post-war Nagasaki and Hiroshima, both thriving cities once again—young survivors of the event may well retire years later under quite normal conditions in a rebuilt city, drawing on social security and 401K accounts established before the war.

What Will End it All?

It is very difficult to specify any death toll or infrastructure destruction that would, in itself, make fundamental or lasting changes to our systems of governance. Even nuclear war may not reach the threshold.

There are a number of counterexamples to the persistence of mundane economic life, property rights, trade, and governance. One might ask about the fates of East German landlords. Or pre-1949 debts in China. What about paper farm deeds in Cuba? What about French Ancien Regime estates after 1790?

These counter-examples quite neatly answer the question of what events are actually known to radically change society. The real force that reorders society is always human action, driven by political or ideological coordination. Disaster becomes a moment for organized political actors to upset the existing order in a given place, either by foreign conquest or by revolution.

Without some human force ready to make use of disaster, neither plague nor destruction are sufficient in themselves to rewrite how society functions. Where these things occur without a strong existing revolutionary ideology, the status quo recovers with amazing speed. On the other hand, revolutions have succeeded repeatedly without requiring major physical disruptions at all, such as those of Cuba and Iran.

In this sense, the apocalyptic cults and radical militias may actually be closer to the truth than the docile pessimist who fantasizes about getting to leave his office job. The former, at least, understand that collapse is only ever an opportunity for motivated actors whose power survives or even increases after a disaster. But such people are rarely found among society’s malcontents. As history shows, those who benefit from collapse are often already among its heights.

Adam Van Buskirk lives and writes in rural New Mexico.

https://palladiummag.com/2022/04/11/collapse-wont-reset-society/

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Author: Glock-N-Load

Simply a concerned, freedom loving American.

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83 Comments
Paleocon
Paleocon
May 12, 2022 4:14 pm

Good to see more level heads prevail. Food will be available in the United States under the current regime. Just not affordable food.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  Paleocon
May 12, 2022 6:47 pm

and not for everyone.

Warren
Warren
  ran t 7
May 13, 2022 9:06 am

Plenty of baby formula. As long as you’re an illegal immigrant, otherwise not so much. Wait till it’s more than just baby formula.

Colorado Artist
Colorado Artist
  Paleocon
May 12, 2022 7:20 pm

Just got back from a spring turkey hunt with some sons.
Filled all tags easily. I saw over 600 in one flock.
My family won’t go hungry when the shit happens.
BTW, hunting turkeys is requires some skill as they are very aware.
I saw just as many deer too. Much easier to hunt. Could have killed dozens of them
had they been in season.
Deep fried the youngest tom. Just delicious.

Red River D
Red River D
  Colorado Artist
May 12, 2022 11:19 pm

“…BTW, hunting turkeys is requires some skill as they are very aware…”

So aware, in fact, that the last time I ate wild turkey, it was after I rode past a gaggle of em on my four wheeler, THEN ran inside to retrieve a shotgun, THEN rode back out to where they were and took a shot!!!

My only mistake was using birdshot. Jawbreakers, those little damn pellets. Always use buckshot for turkeys. Much easier to find and pick the lead out of the meat!!!

Warren
Warren
  Red River D
May 13, 2022 9:07 am

Try walking through Harvard Square. The turkeys hunt you.

Colorado Artist
Colorado Artist
  Red River D
May 13, 2022 11:41 am

Shoot for the head and neck.

Red River D
Red River D
  Colorado Artist
May 13, 2022 9:05 pm

Indeed. But I only had time to grab a Mossberg 590 and run out the door. No choke. Hardly a hunting shotgun. So when I took my shot I hit the bird in the legs and shattered both femurs. He tried to take off, but nothing doing.

Then I walked up on him and took my headshot. Gutted and cleaned him while he was still warm!!!

Yum.

Anonymous
Anonymous
May 12, 2022 4:42 pm

Fuck it, eat your steak, guzzle your beer and bourbon, drive that diesel and go down shooting

ran t 7
ran t 7
  Anonymous
May 12, 2022 6:41 pm

kind of a short term plan ….

Colorado Artist
Colorado Artist
  ran t 7
May 12, 2022 7:26 pm

Not necessarily.
Depends on your redoubt, arsenal, and your marksmanship.
If all 3 are buttoned up, your steak, beer, and bourbon will abide.

Stuart
Stuart
  ran t 7
May 12, 2022 9:14 pm

Didn’t read the article did you?
I know… had a lot of big words.

Colorado Artist
Colorado Artist
  Stuart
May 13, 2022 2:06 pm

Hey Amazing Kreskin, I was responding to the post just above, not the article.

Get it now or do need pictures to understand? I do those for a living.

LOL!

Spanglin
Spanglin
  Anonymous
May 13, 2022 7:27 pm

I am with you on this one. Beef its what’s for dinner

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
May 12, 2022 4:44 pm

If bureaucracy is resilient, then trade is eternal. Far from being a recent development of modern technology, archeological evidence shows global trade predating the Iron Age. In the 3rd millennium BC, tin flowed from modern-day Cornwall through central Europe and the Mediterranean. The Arabian Gulf connected Mesopotamian societies with the Indus. Weights appear to have met similar standards from Britain to the Middle East, staying remarkably stable for over 2000 years. In the long run, there is no disaster in human history that has permanently ended trade between regions and continents.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  hardscrabble farmer
May 12, 2022 6:42 pm

“global trade predating the Iron Age”

those people were born into such already-functioning systems, and grew them. our present population will be regressing into isolation with few skills for adapting to such and no attitude for doing so.

bug
bug
  hardscrabble farmer
May 12, 2022 9:15 pm

The bulk of the population during all ages preceding ours lived off local products, locally produced tools, and healed with locally produced medicines. Trade was more akin to some slave running snow down from the mountains so the local prince could have a cold drink than delivering a “pizza” to the common peasant. Ancient trade consisted of spices, perfumes, finer cloth, slaves, gold, silver, gems, and then-high-tech like gunpowder, etc. All of which was intended for the wealthy. Spices to preserve food and hide the half-rotted taste, perfumes to hide body odor, clothing for status, slaves to do the work, valuables for status and art, technology to keep the commoners in line, etc.

The lowly commoner did not benefit from trade, unlike, the lowly resident of, say, Baltimore, who gets gov’t housing, food, energy, health care, and ‘Bama phones.

What will happen in Baltimore and similar locations, when things go south?

Red River D
Red River D
  bug
May 12, 2022 11:26 pm

“…What will happen in Baltimore and similar locations, when things go south?…”

The uppity residents will be armed and given transportation to Rural America.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  Red River D
May 12, 2022 11:34 pm

Katrina comes to mind. Roving bands of splivs pulling into driveways in a plain van.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  Red River D
May 16, 2022 11:38 am

the ones behind all this are doing that right now.

Anonymous
Anonymous
May 12, 2022 5:01 pm

How many socialists and joggers lived in England during the Black Death?

Stuart
Stuart
  Anonymous
May 12, 2022 9:15 pm

Apparently some survived

Anonymous
Anonymous
May 12, 2022 6:16 pm

Interesting premise, but completely off-base. Populations of the past worked with their hands. 95% of our current population are crippled retirees, obese welfare recipients or electronics addicted zombies. Moreover, all means of production center around the instant flow and recall of data. The collapse would be total and unimaginable in any of the scenarios laid out.

bug
bug
  Anonymous
May 12, 2022 8:58 pm

I agree. While nothing says we have to go back to caves in a societal collapse, I can see no way that things will keep going after a short blip.

During the Black Death, almost every last thing was made and consumed locally. Intensely locally, like within the same village, on a day to day basis. Trade, and Caravans, etc. all simply transported luxuries for the upper classes. All food, tools, medicines, clothing, etc. was made in the local village and consumed there.

The world saw no real “technology” as we know it today until the beginning of the 20th century. No computers, phones, etc. Television, radio, air travel, personal automobiles, one-bedroom apartments*, ethnic food, super markets, and so on, were still rarities across the world on the eve of WWII. Even indoor plumbing was only common in situations in which it would be deadly to lack.

And today, that is still the situation, to a significant extent, in areas of even first world countries. It is certainly so in many areas of third world countries.

Today, our products and tools are both extremely more complicated and extremely more diverse than 70 years ago. It will be difficult to scavenge and adapt even similar parts to repair others. Supply Chains are longer, and will be non-existent during and after a societal collapse. There will be a huge convulsion as we adapt to once more creating local supply chains.

I’m guessing that for the first decade after a societal collapse, we’ll be living in a society that is more of a cross between a medieval village and a pre-civil war society, than anything resembling what we have today. I do expect, however, that our bounce back may be startlingly quick.

What happens really will depend upon human capital. Since the water treatment, medicine, and HVAC that keeps older folks alive may disappear and take them with it, we may have no store of wisdom, knowledge, and experience with which to rebuild easily. Most knowledge today is stored (or at least accessed) on the internet. If the lights go out, you won’t have that anymore.

If today’s people can’t cook, change a tire, fix a toilet, etc. how will they grow and preserve food, jury-rig a steam engine, or obtain clean water? Of what use will be a mid-level administrator, tax accountant, marketing executive, or web designer be when things get tough? How attractive will Feminism, LGTBQ+, or Libertarianism appear when life gets nasty, brutish, and short? How can we possibly jump start and maintain our energy infrastructure if it were to go down?

I think there will be a big, and horrifying die-off. And I suspect, being in my mid-fifties, I’d prefer to be a part of it, rather than try to eke out an existence through the transition, only to die of old age at the end of it.

(*One-bedroom apartments housed whole families. Now, two DINKs live alone in 5-bedroom mcmansions.)

falconflight
falconflight
  bug
May 13, 2022 12:11 am

You forgot coal and steam power. Greatly enhanced life through industrialization. Certainly not compared to today’s standards, but a significant improvement in life in the West.

Stuart
Stuart
  Anonymous
May 12, 2022 9:16 pm

Bullshit

VOWG
VOWG
  Stuart
May 13, 2022 5:31 am

Until it happens.

bob in apopka
bob in apopka
May 12, 2022 6:28 pm

The wife thinks the Democrats are creating a fuel shortage to justify mail in ballots for the mid terms, or to make voting harder. ( yeah right,and what’s next “a fake pandemic” not likely ) My guess is that killing us off creates new democrat voters because dead folks always vote blue.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  bob in apopka
May 12, 2022 6:44 pm

their goal is to kill off anyone who will not serve them. “the nation that will not serve you shall be destroyed.” any method and excuse will do.

ran t 7
ran t 7
May 12, 2022 6:39 pm

“But to some, collapse can be a thrilling possibility”

indeed, there’s quite a few on the “right” who have 100,000 cartridges of ammo and who talk about “one shot one kill”, and they’re deadly serious. they hate people – they talk about how they hate government and hate leftists and hate busybodies and hate police and so on, but it’s really all a cover for hating people as such – and they can’t wait for an end to the rule of law when they can just open fire on all that oppresses them, on everyone that isn’t “on their team”, on everyone that doesn’t acknowledge their superior wisdom, on everyone they just plain don’t like.

these guys will dominate any grid-down landscape for years.

mark
mark
  ran t 7
May 12, 2022 8:01 pm

You keep GRINDING that point…thread after thread after thread…WTF???

Yea, there are loons on every fringe…but anyone who, to quote you…as you like to snipe comments with sentence quotes:

“can’t wait for an end to the rule of law when they can just open fire”

Are already in power.

You do realize that…right? The real killers, murderers, are already in power?

If there is any ‘THRILL’ because of the coming collapse and the ability to finally openly KILL…that upcoming ‘THRILL’ is really harbored by TLPTB (L= Luciferin) who have been ‘THRILL’ killing undercover for generations…but are now taking their MASKS off.

Don’t worry about those who refuse to submit and can back up that defiance with weapons, ammo, and death to tyrants…they won’t bother you…unless you THREAD on them.

Don’t worry about one shot one KILL…that will be done in retaliation by a miniscule number of people on both sides who are trained and have the ability.

Worry about the traitors in power who are herding U.S. into this controlled demolition that will force those with guns and ammo to protect themselves and their families.

You post like an evolved g-man.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  mark
May 12, 2022 8:32 pm

Indeed he does and just as damn irksome. Throws shit over fences then acts offended if you throw some back over.

mark
mark
  Fleabaggs
May 12, 2022 8:45 pm

Shades of g-man Flea Flicker.

Same sniper style, approach, and bottom line hidden agenda/message.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  mark
May 16, 2022 11:41 am

“hidden agenda/message”

sorry, I didn’t mean for it to be “hidden” ….

ran t 7
ran t 7
  mark
May 16, 2022 11:52 am

“You do realize that…right? The real killers, murderers, are already in power?”

killers and murderers are everywhere. those who intend to open fire after grid-down pose as being the righteous opposing evil, when in fact they’re just another kind of evil. I “grind this point” because there are new people on this blog every day who have never given the matter a second’s thought, and they need to be made aware of it so they can start looking at their fellow participants a little more objectively.

(I also “grind this point” because no-one ever answers it. they attack the messenger, but they never address the issue. because they know it’s true.)

“then acts offended if you throw some back over”

feel free to throw whatever you like. maybe some of it will address the actual issue.

Oruval
Oruval
  ran t 7
May 12, 2022 8:49 pm

Most of those preppped who have “bullets” will be the only ones helping keep some form of social cohesion you jackass. As most are conservative leaning Christian minded folk who actually believe in the ideals of a constitutional republic.

bug
bug
  Oruval
May 12, 2022 9:21 pm

I’m guessing that for most of the supposed “fringe” people that he is on about, prepping and such is actually more of an escapist LARP, rather than a concrete desire to take out politicians and bureaucrats.

Anybody who gives serious thought to a grid-down situation knows that their time will be spent on providing shelter, food, and water, and certainly not revenge fantasies against oligarchs and their minions.

mark
mark
  bug
May 12, 2022 11:25 pm

Naw…he has been grinding that axe since he showed up.

n
n
  bug
May 13, 2022 1:29 am

Trying to live until those fuckers who started it all come crawling out of their hole to “take over”

Ken31
Ken31
  bug
May 13, 2022 7:33 am

I know you are correct, because that is how it plays out in an actual war zone, too.

Ken31
Ken31
  Oruval
May 13, 2022 7:31 am

I believe in the ideals of of an ethno-Christian nation and some Articles of Confederation. You can take your constitutional republic and shove. Look up the definition of insanity.

Stuart
Stuart
  ran t 7
May 12, 2022 9:20 pm

No they won’t my friend. They are the acolytes of Walter Mitty. They will prevail at first but in the end will be wiped out as the normal people get on with the process of living. If it weren’t so, we would have never settled the West.

n
n
  ran t 7
May 13, 2022 1:27 am

Newsflash!
People hate people or hadn’t you noticed.
Left, or right, black, or white, people hate people.
What you just described sounds like human history.
Fuck, you can be dense sometimes.

ran t 7
ran t 7
May 12, 2022 6:40 pm
mark
mark
  ran t 7
May 12, 2022 8:52 pm

Troll on.

Let’s constantly point out all the bad dangerous armed and fully prepared to fight…all those 2nd Amendment types as you said on the “right” who will as you said:

“these guys will dominate any grid-down landscape for years’

All the HATERS as you said above.

” they talk about how they hate government and hate leftists and hate busybodies and hate police and so on, but it’s really all a cover for hating people as such – and they can’t wait for an end to the rule of law when they can just open fire on all that oppresses them, on everyone that isn’t “on their team”, on everyone that doesn’t acknowledge their superior wisdom, on everyone they just plain don’t like”.

Tell us MOUR about the real HATERS ran t 7???

Praise the Lord for the men and woman of the Bible and the Constitution and their families…please Father pass them the ammunition, and when TLPTB come for me…may my aim be true and just…when the fight comes.

n
n
  mark
May 13, 2022 1:33 am

You try and take him seriously but then he just…..glows.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  mark
May 16, 2022 11:57 am

“Tell us MOUR about the real HATERS ran t 7?”

sounds like the shoe fits. does it?

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
  ran t 7
May 13, 2022 6:49 am

Imagine how much more you would be able to do if you were caring for herds and flocks instead of sitting around waiting for some kind of Red Dawn scenario.

Since I got up I have fed and watered over 500 meat birds and turkey poults, collected and boxed 12 dozen eggs, baled the cattle and topped off their water, put new bedding in the piggery and come back in to make coffee and opine on a couple of threads while my wife makes breakfast. I don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, but I know we’ll be eating food, so at least I took care of that prep.

The world has always had some kind of conflict and there are always insane power hungry psychopaths plotting the genocide of people they don’t like, but if you look at the bigger picture most people emerge unscathed and everybody continues to eat throughout.

Positive outlook costs you nothing. Living in a state of perpetual anxiety over things that haven’t happened seems pointless.

“He who fears death will never do anything worthy of a man who is alive.” – Seneca

Ghost
Ghost
  hardscrabble farmer
May 13, 2022 7:31 am

I chased down four little rabbits loose in my yard, and removed a big buck from their mother’s cage and pen, where they escaped obviously when the guy (their uncle!) dug in.

So, I will be having lots of giant rabbits next month. Again.

It is vital to have animals to care for and I’m pretty sure that’s why God made them first.

mark
mark
  Ghost
May 13, 2022 10:38 am

I’m trying Peking ducks this year. Raising 8 along with 10 new chicks…have 14 mature layers, some who are getting long in the tooth. They have quickly grown enormous and having zero experience with them I was amazed how much faster than the chicks (been wrangling layers for a decade) the Peking quackers grew! I have heard their eggs are huge, pungent, and delicious.

Tractor Supply wanted me to give my address when I bought the chicks and ducklings because of the phony PCR bird flu lies…I refused…explained why…and the 50 something sweet Southern Belle at the register understood and put in a phony address. (A fellow freedom fighter!)

Almost have a homemade two part Duck coop finished by the pond to transfer the 8 into, they share a run and a pen with the 10 chicks the last month. Once I get them acclimated to their new home by the pond I will release them into it.

If anyone has experience or suggestions I’m all ears Peking ducks are completely new to me. I’m thinking leaving them in the pen at the pond (it’s under a shade tree – will run a hose to it) for at least three weeks before releasing them into the pond that will be just a few feet from their two connected wire covered cages/runs.

Planted more fruit trees (5), more berry bushes, using one side of the 8 foot chain link fence surrounding my main garden as a trellis to grow Issai Kiwi, planted a massive amount of three different types of Sweet Potatoes (the most calorie dense veggie) 55 plants in total (36 in a south facing tree line that are invisible while growing as blend in with the underbrush), largest garden I have ever put in, upping every aspect of my food production this summer considering what the enemy is doing.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  mark
May 13, 2022 10:51 am

I have a little experience trying to roast the fat out of them. Takes a lot of btu’s because there store a lot of fat below the skin.

Ghost
Ghost
  mark
May 13, 2022 11:50 am

I picked up a pair of ducklings last December from the farm and ranch store for a buck-fiddy each when they outgrew being cute, thus went 75% off.

I ended up bunking them with the chickens and now they will not make the transfer to the pond.

However, Disco, the Pekins/Peking, is a double-yolk egg producer. We haven’t seen a single yet.

Maynard, the Mallard, has just figured out he likes Disco better than the hens, which is a good think because he was wearing the feathers off the backs of a couple hens.

My rooster is a bit confused now, submissive to Maynard.

We love the eggs… they are truly delicious.

But, my chicken flock needs to be straightened out and the ducks need to move to the pond instead of splashing all the water out of all the tubs in the chicken yard.

Idiot ducks.
Handsome couple though.
comment image

mark
mark
  Ghost
May 13, 2022 12:22 pm

Hmmm…well after I get them into the pond shoreline coop and give them a few weeks of being cooped up with almost a 1/2 acre Duck heaven pond a few feet away (they go crazy for the two baby pools I have for them now) I’m hoping I can get them back in the protection of the shoreline coop at night…and that worries me…otherwise the coyotes will have a feast.

I could set up from my second floor window it’s a 60 yard shot to the pond’s closest side and their heavy wire coop and portable run I will have attached by then…but gotta sleep and there are many other predators around.

Have a SightMark night scope I was thinking of putting on my Mini 14 for the Coyotes.

I need to get going on night shooting technology…know nothing about it…never been a hunter…any suggestions from the experienced?

Colorado Artist?

Ken31
Ken31
  hardscrabble farmer
May 13, 2022 7:38 am

How do you even process and market poultry at that scale? I could use that many birds for the land, but I would have no idea what to do with them besides pasture improvement and pest control. I am genuinely curious.

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
  Ken31
May 13, 2022 8:45 am

The most important part is having a place to put them until you can sell/eat them, so freezers are a must- plus the electricity to power them.

Birds are a Summer product. We get the chicks in the Spring, fatten them up and slaughter when they hit weight- about 5-8 pounds each for the broilers.

We just ate our last bird from 2021 two weeks ago so no chicken for us for at least two months except for yardbirds (roosters we keep around over the Winter) and they’re only good for pot pies and cacciatore.

We have a scalder, a plucker and a couple of stainless steel tables to process. If I have someone knowledgeable working alongside of me we can process about 25 birds an hour from slaughter to cooler.

In years past we charged enough per bird to pay for the cost of raising them and for the ones we keep for ourselves. This year I will be following the drift of inflation.

It is a lot easier than it looks.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  hardscrabble farmer
May 13, 2022 9:48 am

I only wish we had a plucker. Us kids were the scalders and pluckers and scooper outers of innards. Another unpleasant job was picking up the heads. We ranged 1,00 layers and only confined and fed grain in the dead of winter until factory farming put all us little guys out of business. That was a lot of eggs to weigh and candle by a 100 w bulb which was my big sisters job. Dad worked off farm like most others around us but that chicken income determined whether I wore my brothers shoes to school or a pair of my own. One or two sizes too big of course. Never knew we were deprived until we moved to the city and the new school told us we were.

Gmpatriot
Gmpatriot
  hardscrabble farmer
May 13, 2022 9:55 am

We had a small processing business where we traveled to farms all over the State. Cost of travel has limited our processing to only dedicated customers. I would have to charge more for travel than the rate we charge to process! Effing Biden!

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  Gmpatriot
May 13, 2022 10:15 am

Sadly enough “They” know that and want to drive the remaining independants out. Same as the selective lockdowns.

brian
brian
  hardscrabble farmer
May 13, 2022 10:36 am

Loved the morning farm routines…. miss them dearly

It ain’t work when you love you job…

Ken31
Ken31
  brian
May 13, 2022 10:47 am

The only job I ever had where I didn’t mind getting up before dawn (or any time for that matter) was the couple of years I worked on a large angus farm. I am very happy and blessed to be transitioning back to that kind of work as a lifestyle.

This year infrastructure and prep, next year animals and planting.

Ken31
Ken31
  hardscrabble farmer
May 13, 2022 10:43 am

Thank you for the reply, HF, it is very valuable information to me.

Freezer space and expense has been on my mind.

ran t 7
ran t 7
  hardscrabble farmer
May 16, 2022 11:59 am

“’He who fears death will never do anything worthy of a man who is alive.’ – Seneca”

sure. but he who ignores problems will be blindsided by them.

Horseless Headsman
Horseless Headsman
May 12, 2022 8:00 pm

” understand that collapse is only ever an opportunity for motivated actors whose power survives or even increases after a disaster. ”

What a depressing thought.

There are a number of differences this time around that may have some effect. First in my mind is that what ‘we’ are opposing is the society itself that allows such control as they imagine to be exerted. Continuation of the current setup means that the freedom loving peoples have lost. To rid ourselves of this plague of billionaires, the system must be destroyed utterly, or as you say, they will come out stronger and more in control than they are today.

Another difference is that this will not be a clear-cut them-vs-us struggle with a start and an end as it would be with a war. It will have similarities to the Afghan effort, except a lot bigger. They will have difficulty identifying the resistance from the sheep. They currently imagine a Ukraine that will be able to sap Russia to the point of collapse while ignoring the reality that they will be in a worse situation in the US when they try to assert control here.

I figure they will get their shot, but I expect it will go badly for them, especially if they are overcome.

bug
bug
May 12, 2022 8:14 pm

“Imagine money losing its importance when beans and bullets hold all the value.”

Same Ol’, Same Ol’.

When money is important, I have no money. When beans & bullets are important, I’ll have none of that, either.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  bug
May 12, 2022 10:00 pm

Bug, the biggest lesson I learned in Nam was the beans and bullets theory. It’s no theory. Since we had lots of water it was just beans and bullets. When the 68 tet hit we were trapped for 3 weeks and could only get sporadic drops of Ammo and C-Rats. What ever you happened to have the most of that day was the least valuable. It would change every two or three days depending on what the chopper dropped. You could not buy even a tin of hinder binder cheese with money.

mark
mark
  Fleabaggs
May 12, 2022 11:20 pm

Flea,

Had four cans of this my Mom would send me monthly…always humped it into the bush in place of the RATs…most popular grunt in the platoon at least once a day.

Some guys stopped by my hole just to see the label and drool.

comment image&f=1&nofb=1

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  mark
May 12, 2022 11:31 pm

We quit scoffing at the guys who always had a jar of hot sauce on them. Anything to kill the taste. Only thing consistently edible in a case of rats was the spaghetti and meatballs and the pork and beans.

Oruval
Oruval
May 12, 2022 8:59 pm

If the alternative is gender reassignment and tranny pedo groomer book hour at the local library while the average narcissist feminist slut brags about her 21st abortion on Twitter, as 50% of my wealth is stolen/taxed by a central federal government bank then a complete collapse seems somewhat agreeable. Call me a dreamer.

bug
bug
  Oruval
May 12, 2022 9:30 pm

What I wonder is how they can get a semi-educated, semi-literate society like we have today, to go back to being slaves and serfs?

The only way that I can imagine is through controlled famine, but if the slaves and serfs are the ones growing the food, then how do you get today’s people (raised on hollywood movies) to reliably comply?

For the entire history of the world, slaves and serfs were complete illiterates who pretty much knew nothing but slavery and serfdom, and lived in a world where slavery and serfdom were the common and accepted order of things.

Sure, peoples were forced into slavery, but this always involved transporting them to a new and foreign society that would enforce the slavery. And, they were illiterate.

Were there any examples of a literate people who were enslaved and lived within their own countries?

On the other hand, the 1984/Brave New World trick does seem to be working out for them. Why risk it with food and energy shortages, supply chain collapse, and other current buffoonery?

mark
mark
  bug
May 12, 2022 9:54 pm

Demonic over reach, evil hubris, and a vain attempt to bum rush God’s prophetic timing.

PSBindy
PSBindy
  bug
May 13, 2022 6:47 am

Bug asks: “Were there any examples of a literate people who were enslaved and lived within their own countries?”

Ans: Yes indeedy. The Greek city-states would often vote to attack another city for the usual spoils and to enslave the citizens. Good way to get a top-notch math teacher for your kids.

Per Victor Davis Hanson.

mark
mark
  PSBindy
May 13, 2022 11:06 am

I have read many of his books…discovered him years ago, ‘Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power’ was my favorite of those I read.

Anonymous
Anonymous
May 12, 2022 9:09 pm

The Court of Common Pleas conducted its full end-of-year term in 1348, while the Court of King’s Bench sat uninterrupted at York. In 1349, the Court of Common Pleas continued regular operations at Westminster. The King’s Bench operated at Lincoln, remaining “surprisingly busy.”

IF ONLY TIME TRAVEL WERE POSSIBLE…A catapult, some flea-ridden victims, A few lucky shots…

A9racer
A9racer
May 12, 2022 9:26 pm

“prohibited alms for able-bodied beggars”
Ha! Every street corner in Dallas would be empty again.
That right there is justification enough for me.

Undeniable
Undeniable
May 13, 2022 12:03 am

If trade were a boat, sales are the sails.

falconflight
falconflight
May 13, 2022 12:23 am

That is so wildly mind fcked that I can hardly believe that any model that wasn’t purposely underplaying the casualty count could exist. 3,000 targeted locations between North American, Europe, Russia, and China would be easily sufficient to immediately kill over one billion. These aren’t Hiroshima/Nagasaki level ‘ordinance.’ Insane
====
“…Official models of a nuclear exchange, at least, suggest otherwise. U.S. government estimates predict a death toll of between 13 to 34 million people for a nuclear exchange involving 3,000 warheads…”

javelin
javelin
  falconflight
May 13, 2022 7:49 am

not to mention fallout, uninhabitable lands, electro-magnetic side effects, loss of growing seasons/famine from several years of impeded sunlight, radiation sickness, the targets being the most populated cities, etc etc…

His nuclear scenario is WAY off. Excellent piece overall but our low-skilled society and complex supply chains would almost ensure an 80%+ die off. Our current society simply has very few people capable of feeding themselves if the grocery stores are closed, that has not been the case throughout history.

We would probably lose 34 million people just from lack of medical services, nursing homes, medicines, O2 deliveries, diabetics and water tx facilities..

I do not pine away for an apocolyptic event and have no illusions of a great come-uppance for TPTB. They are better stocked, secured and supplied than any of us- face it. Plus, if I am fantasizing about civilizational collapse and a fresh start, why don’t we just call it a ….ummmm..Great Reset?

n
n
May 13, 2022 1:38 am

“It wont take long for the age of sails to return” Does this mf ever work with his hands?
Even hollowing out a log take more effort than the average current person has the skill or stamina for.
Most people can’t even sharpen an ax properly let alone use it. Hard to progress when you spend all your time trying to do the basics.

Warren
Warren
May 13, 2022 9:20 am

If there’s no credit system, trade doesn’t happen. If the supply chain breaks down theEre is no manufacturing. If the truckers can’t get that one thing that has broken in their rig that it can’t run without because it is sitting on the dock in Shanghai, or because the plant in China that makes it can’t get that one part that keeps it going is sitting on a dock in the Us because without credit it can’t bet a bill of lading to ship.in

Then those truckers can’t move fuel, food, spare parts that keep our civilization moving.

The collapse will happen because the system is too brittle and when one cog in th world wide system breaks it puts pressure on the back alternatives.

Does this result in a global societal collapse. Actually yes. Because unlike other times, things are not made locally. Once the supply chain breaks down, modernity will quickly end.
But why would that equate to a civilization collapse?
Because at that point civil structure would disintegrate, probably some locals may last longer, but things would disintegrate to the point where we would have to start over, but without the knowledge of our ancestors. It would be worse than the Bronze Age collapse, because then economic activity was localized, people had the ability and knowledge to work without power tool for example. Even a generation ago things were made locally. Now we buy ChiCom crap, or American made things “Assembled using world wide components”

The EMP commission reported that 90% of Americans would die with a year without power.

A grid brakedown is baked in as almost a certainty in any economic breakdown scenario.

Guest
Guest
May 13, 2022 9:35 am

Well I agree I get sick of seeing the posts of the few who gloat over vaxxx deaths for instance. Even of teenagers and kids. They are either filled with fear or psychos like the psychos.

What if everyone just ignored the economic collapse? Money is just faith based. I mean you would lose your stock/bank money but just keep on going. Say, you banks failed- I didn’t.

Warren
Warren
  Guest
May 13, 2022 9:59 am

The collapse is different this time, because it’s being done deliberately especially in the FUSA. The Biden Regime and the rest of the Davos crow d believe that they have to collapse the system in order to enact the Great Reset and bring in a new feudal system. With them as the new nobility.

The problem with that is it’s the humpty dumpty scenario. Once the system breaks down it won’t be possible to fix it in their hubrus they can’t see that .

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  Warren
May 13, 2022 10:12 am

Yup. Welcome to Neo Feudalism. Same as old Feudalism only worse..

Warren
Warren
  Fleabaggs
May 13, 2022 11:28 am

It’s going feudal, just not in the way the folks driving it think. They are thinking a world based on the Red Chinese social credit system. It’s more likely to be medieval style feudal system. But worse for More like The Postman than the hunger games.