Dow 5,000? Yes, it could happen

 

Such a scenario can’t be completely ruled out

Don’t be surprised if stock markets stabilize or bounce back in the next couple of days. Markets are due at least a short-term rally after this week’s dramatic plunge. This usually happens after a sell-off, no matter what the next big move is going to be. It doesn’t mean anything.

But anyone who automatically assumes this is another easy “buying opportunity” is talking nonsense.

For the past couple of years, Wall Street’s perma-bulls have had it their way. They’ve been gloating openly as stocks went up and up and up, seemingly without pause.

It got to the point that those warning about valuations and danger signs had been mocked into silence — or were simply ignored.

Not now.

I don’t mean to be alarmist or to induce panic, but someone needs to tell the public that there is a plausible scenario in which the U.S. stock market now collapses by another 70% until the Dow Jones Industrial Average falls to about 5,000. The index tumbled more than 3% to 16,460 on Friday.

Dow 5,000? Really?

For 30 years, stock prices have been increasingly boosted by financial factors: collapsing interest rates and Federal Reserve manipulation, culminating most recently in ‘quantitative easing.’

I’m not predicting that will happen, but contrary to what the bulls tell you, it cannot be completely ruled out.

And even if that ranks as an outlier and a worst-case scenario, there are other, more likely scenarios where the Dow falls to somewhere between 10,000 and 12,000.

In other words, although this might be a buying opportunity, a serious reading of history suggests this week’s sell-off might also be the beginning.

Let me say on the record that I am not joining the perma-bears or extreme doom-mongers. I am simply pointing out that the perma-bulls have taken their own arguments way too far. The stock market is not doomed to collapse to oblivion, as some hysterics keep claiming. But it is not certain to keep going up by 10% a year, either. All those claiming that every sell-off is a buying opportunity, and that stocks “always outperform,” are lying to you.

A true understanding of stock market history shows that Wall Street in the past has moved in long, long swings upwards and downwards, often taking years or even a generation or two. There is a great deal of evidence suggesting that the upward move that began in 1982 is one of them — and that the downward move that first began in 2000 has not ended.

As stock market historian Russell Napier points out in his book “Anatomy of the Bear,” on five occasions in the past 100 years — in 1921, 1932, 1949, 1974 and 1982 — those big downward moves have not ended until share valuations have fallen to just 30% of the replacement cost of company assets. That’s using a powerful, if little-known, economic metric known as Tobin’s q.

And, to cut to the chase, if Wall Street stocks followed the same path today that would take the Dow down to about 5,000, and the S&P 500 Index all the way down to around 600. (The S&P 500 slumped more than 3% to 1,971 on Friday.)

Yikes.

The “q” is a valuation that they don’t even mention in the training manuals for the official “financial planner” and financial-analyst exams. Your money manager has probably never heard of it. Or, if he has, he probably ranks it with astrology and the mystic rantings of Nostradamus.

But the “q” happens to have by far the most successful long-term track record of any stock market indicator.

It’s been better than the price-to-earnings ratio or quarterly earnings forecasts or economic growth rates or long-term interest rates or Federal Reserve minutes.

Independent analysts — such as professor Stephen Wright at London University and Andrew Smithers at Smithers & Co., a financial consultancy in London — have tracked it back over 100 years.

And in the past there has been no better guide for the long-term investor. It’s been even better than the cyclically adjusted price-to-earnings measure, also known as the “Shiller PE” after Yale finance professor Robert Shiller (which also, incidentally, suggests U.S. stocks could plunge a long way from here).

The “q” looks at the net asset values of public companies and adjusts them for inflation. It makes some intuitive sense. Why would Widget Inc. be valued at $1 billion on the stock market if you could start the company from scratch for a lot less?

Right now, according to data from the U.S. Federal Reserve, the reading on the “q” is about 100%. (It was 106% at the last reading, on March 1, but since then the S&P 500 has fallen by about 6%.)

Since World War II, the average “q” reading has been about 70%. So if Wall Street tumbled just to its modern average valuation, that would take the Dow Jones Industrial Average down to about 12,000.

If we just look at the period 1949 to 1994 — in other words, before the gigantic, off-the-charts boom of the late 1990s — the historic average “q” reading for stocks was 57%. If the market falls to those levels, that would take the Dow to about 9,500.

And if the market fell to its historic bear market lows, namely 30% or so, that would mean a Dow of about 5,000.

Why might such a scenario happen? It’s not just about China, or Greece, or slowing earnings, or the “death cross” on Apple’s stock. It would be because, for the past 30 years, Wall Street stock prices have been increasingly boosted by financial factors: collapsing interest rates and Federal Reserve manipulation, culminating most recently in “quantitative easing.” But at some point, that game has to come to an end. When it does, it is possible — not certain, but possible — that valuation metrics could unwind all the way back down again.

Past performance, as they say on Wall Street, is no guarantee of future results. And that means there is absolutely no guarantee that share prices in the future will follow a similar path to the one seen in 1921, 1932, 1949, 1974 or 1982. I would consider that to be very much the outer range of possibilities.

The real reason to be worried right now isn’t that these scenarios are guaranteed or even likely. It’s that 99% of the people managing America’s money, probably including yours, assume that they are completely impossible. And no, they aren’t. Have you factored that into your plans?

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19 Comments
Stucky
Stucky
August 22, 2015 10:54 am

Hard to follow article.

So, what does it mean if the dow drops to 5,000? Is that a SHTF moment? Another Great Depression? Mass riots? The end of TBP? Or, does life just go on, somehow?

BEA LEVER
BEA LEVER
August 22, 2015 11:03 am

5000-5800 is where the Dow should be, everything above that was purely an illusion.

Anonymous
Anonymous
August 22, 2015 11:27 am

The DOW could go to 2,000 but to answer Stucky, the social impact would be proportional to the low and the time it stayed there; if it started clearly going up again, then a minor disaster. It would be the millionaires sucking air about 3 days to start SHTF, one week starts a depression, one month starts the urban jungle riots because they are primed by the MSM to go already.

unit472
unit472
August 22, 2015 11:34 am

Yesterday I had CNBC on and one of the guests blurted out the reality of the situation. “If people can’t make money in the stock market where can they make money?” That is a very big problem isn’t it and it wasn’t as if anyone else had any alternatives. No one said well bonds are a good buy or that real estate or commodities are the place to be. There is no place left that the financial industry has not already strip mined the wealth from. Interest rates can’t go any lower. Credit cannot be expanded any further. Who’s left?

To keep this game going kids just out of high school are encouraged to mortgage their future with loans to buy a credential from a diploma mill or, even worse, a for profit trade school that advertises on TV. Then there are the car loans with 7 plus year payment plans to subprime borrowers. Good luck with that because the type of person who buys a car on those terms is the type of person local governments are also targeting for traffic fines and auto insurance companies for hefty premiums to keep that vehicle insured.You can bet somewhere in that 84 month payment plan the borrower will face an insurance premium, auto payment and traffic ticket all coming due in the same month and something’s going to give!

Nope, the financial people have squeezed the juice out of the US economy and if they can’t get a fresh dollop of QE to trade stocks back and forth to ever higher prices or corporations have to stop borrowing to finance share repurchases to goose EPS higher the game is over. Maybe that CNBC guest can enroll in a for profit trade school and learn how to work on motorcycles to make money!

Anonymous
Anonymous
August 22, 2015 11:44 am

Look at the average P/E, not the high and low numbers.

A stable market should run from about 8 on the bottom end to 12 on the high end.

Below that signifies we are in dire straights as an economy and above that indicates a speculative boom that is subject to sudden crash.

Current average P/E is 16.9 which indicates a speculative bubble based on easy money, only way to go from there is down no matter what bounces happen in the process since money can’t stay easy for an extended time.

If you’re in it, get out now and stash your money till it goes below 12 again.

Fiatman60
Fiatman60
August 22, 2015 11:49 am

The article simply states that a DOW 5000 is quite possible given the manipulation that has occurred over the last 30 years. In fact a DOW 5000 would be a proper representation of the current market valuations of corporations.

However, interest rates would need to come up to lofty heights to compensate for that. NOT happening.

So many variables to consider, that the only reason were seeing this action, is because “smart” money is coming off the table, followed by “dumb” money in the very near future.

The take away…… expect MASSIVE fed intervention in the coming weeks to prop up the stock market, at you and I’s expense. The 1% will not allow this game to end without a fight.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
August 22, 2015 12:47 pm

Stucky says:
“So, what does it mean if the dow drops to 5,000? Is that a SHTF moment? Another Great Depression? Mass riots? The end of TBP? Or, does life just go on, somehow?”

Basically it’s a repeat of the last crash or to be more precise, another opportunity for our owners to implement more drastic measures to transfer all of their losses to the public thanks to apocalyptic…..too big to fail……the system will crash…….all jobs will be lost for eternity……predictions that are complete and utter bullshit. Oh yeah, all the sheople who are playing in the rigged Wall Street casino will get fleeced again.

The reality is that the only real threat will be to those who fucked things up in the first place but the sheople will never catch on. As a result, the status quo will be maintained.

I’m a sick bastard but I’m actually looking forward to it all. Gonna be quite entertaining! (This must be how TPTB feel when they start a war.)

NickelthroweR
NickelthroweR
August 22, 2015 12:56 pm

Greetings,

After what happened in 2008-9, I am no longer willing to gamble against the PTB’s ability to kick the can down the road. Given what I’ve seen at some of the “events” I’ve worked, expect some over the top “miracle” technologies to be announced should things get too bad. Technology that these people have been sitting on for decades. They’ll give us all a taste of it just to keep us calm.

gungadin
gungadin
August 22, 2015 1:41 pm

Lock n load Bitchez !

Overthecliff
Overthecliff
August 22, 2015 2:21 pm

4th Turning crisis coming up?

kokoda
kokoda
August 22, 2015 4:11 pm

agree with Flatman – the last paragraph

BEA LEVER
BEA LEVER
August 22, 2015 5:24 pm

I_S

I don’t think you are a sick bastard at all, many of us are hoping for an end to this “Groundhog’s Day” loop of hell that never seems to end. In the past the best qualities of humans were displayed during the darkest hours. This time we have been niggarized so there is no telling which way the wind will blow.

I hope you never have to take back these words of “bring it on”.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
August 22, 2015 5:39 pm

Bea, I’m planning to actually laugh out loud at the misfortune of others. I’m that fucked up. I’ve had enough. I won’t have to take back those words because even if I get smoked in the coming melee I’m good with it. At this point I have “gone round the twist”! It’s an interesting place to be. Whether I get smoked or make it through it will represent movement away from where we are at present.

BEA LEVER
BEA LEVER
August 22, 2015 5:44 pm

And I’m good with that and respect that I/S. Here’s hoping we don’t get smoked.

DaveAgain
DaveAgain
August 22, 2015 6:03 pm

In 2008, the only reason it didn’t drop to below 4,000 was premature action by the feds seeking to somehow save Wall Street. Had they allowed it to just crash, it would have shaken Americans from their stupor and caused them to demand changes other than the dubious and temporary ones that were taken.

It might have sparked a fundamental change in the way we look at financing and finances and we would have become much more mature in our decision-making. As it is, though, they stuck a temporary bandage on it and made sure banks wouldn’t lose any money, completely ignoring citizens in the process. All this has done is set us up for an even bigger and longer crash, and one with few solutions left. Stupid, stupid, stupid economic move.

I can only hope they will learn from the next one, but it seems we really don’t get smarter with time.

Westcoaster
Westcoaster
August 22, 2015 6:32 pm

This might also have something to do with “mark to fantasy”. When the chickens come home to roost, mark to market may be way out of proportion to the daily bullshit show on Wall St.