The event below, one of the very best known Jesus stories, appears in all three Synoptic Gospels. I would guess that 98% of Christianity interprets the story thusly; Christians, as well as all people, should pay their taxes to the government. I believe this is an incorrect application of the story. I believe the opposite is true; that Jesus in a round-about way instructed his followers to NOT pay taxes to Rome.
Let’s look at the full text from Matthew 22: 15-22 (New King James Version)
“Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher [Rabbi], we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.”
THE PLAYERS
The Pharisees: The Pharisees wanted to do more than just “entangle” Jesus. They wanted to see him killed for his response. But, they were cowards and didn’t go. Perhaps they were afraid of yet again being called hypocritical vipers and filthy rotten corpses. So, they sent “their disciples” and the Herodians. The Pharisees despised Rome, but would cooperate with them whenever it suited their devious purposes.
The Herodians: The Herodians held political power and they supported the Herods, and therefore, indirectly, Rome. To the Pharisees, this compromised the idea of Jewish independence. So, the two groups hated each other. The Gospels state that even Jesus avoided when possible the territory of Herod’s rule. But, the two groups were united in their hatred of Jesus. The Romans wouldn’t believe the Pharisee accusation of Jesus, because the Romans knew the Pharisees hated them. They needed pro-Roman witnesses to testify that Jesus was an insurrectionist. The Herodians were more than happy to go along.
Tiberius: Emperor Tiberius was reigning at the time of Christ. He was a pedophile, a sexual deviant, a murderer, and enslaved millions of people. Worse, especially to the Jews, was that he claimed to be a god. His portrait was on the coin.
The Tax: The Romans weren’t totally bad guys! They built roads, aqueducts, other public works, seaports, cities, and their soldiers/police kept the peace (for the most part). All this cost money. They imposed a series of taxes; property taxes, business taxes, income taxes, census or poll taxes. It was a heavy burden on the people which did, in some cases, leave the person destitute. There were violent tax rebellions both before and after Jesus’ arrival. Josephus recorded that it was the Jewish attitude toward the taxation problem that started the revolution of 66AD … which ended with the total destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
THE coin: The coin was a denarius – roughly a day’s wages for a common laborer. The specific coin would have been issued by the Emperor Tiberius, stamped from his personal mint, and containing silver, instead of copper coins issued by the Senate. It was used to pay soldiers, officials, and suppliers … and was the coin conquered people were required to pay the tribute. The front of the coin depicts Tiberius crowned with the laurels of victory and divinity. Circumscribed around Tiberius is an abbreviation, “TI CAESAR DIVI AUG F AUGUSTUS,” which translates to, “Tiberius Caesar, Worshipful Son of the God, Augustus.” On the other side sits the Roman goddess of peace, Pax, and circumscribed around her is the abbreviation, “Pontif Maxim” which means, “High Priest. It was a terrifically wonderful propaganda tool for the Empire, a constant and painful reminder to subjugated peoples as to who is The Big Boss.
This coin was anathema to Jewish sensibilities as the very first commandment forbids the worship of anyone or anything but God … which included the crafting of any image of a false god, such as that on the coin. It is difficult to image that Jesus, a most devout Jew, would approve of His followers paying tribute with such a coin. The extreme irony of the situation shouldn’t go unnoticed; Jesus, the Son of God, the High Priest of Peace, the King of Kings is holding a tiny silver coin of a king who claims to be the son of a god and the high priest of Roman peace!
It is interesting to speculate why Jesus needed to possess the coin in the first place. Surely, he could have answered their question without seeing it. This episode took place in the Temple. I suspect Jesus asked for a coin because by producing it, the Pharisee’s disciples and Herodians revealed their own religious hypocrisy … by bringing a profane object, the coin of a pagan, into the sacred space of the Temple.
THE TIMING
The tax story took place a few days before Jesus’ crucifixion. On Monday, Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a donkey, and the people hail Him as the Messiah. On Tuesday, he violently chases the money changers out of the temple. This likely confused the people greatly, as they were expecting Messiah to overthrow the Roman system, not the Jewish one. It is now Wednesday and Jesus is now back teaching in the Temple. He’ll be dead by Friday.
Of course, the Jewish leaders are furiously irate. He laid bare their hypocrisy, pride, and selfishness. He hated their brand of religion. He usurped their authority. Worse than all that … the people liked Jesus!! They nearly burst with envy and jealousy. Jesus needed to be stopped at any cost, lest they lose their place in society. So, they come up with a plan to discredit Him. In the previous chapter they ask Jesus; “”By what authority do you do these things? And who gave you this authority”. In other words, the plan is to prove Jesus is a fraud.
In response, Jesus then launches into three parables; 1) the parable of the two sons, 2) the parable of the vineyard, and 3) the parable of the wedding feast. All three parables point to the fact that they, the Pharisees, had no authority and were under God’s judgment. Talk about turning the tables!
The attempt to discredit Jesus based on Torah fell flat on its face. The new plan is to discredit Jesus by bringing Rome into the picture. The plan was to trap Jesus into giving an answer that would make it appear to Rome that Jesus was inciting rebellion to overthrow the very foundations of Roman power. And that’s when the tax story is told.
THE ELABORATE TRAP
The opening gambit trap: ““Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth”.
Their obvious insincere flattery has a devious logic behind it. By addressing Jesus as “Teacher” (‘Rabbi’ or ‘Master’ in other translations) they are both acknowledging and challenging Jesus’ authority as a religious teacher. Their question now becomes one of religious law. Of course, the Pharisees believed only they, alone, were the authoritative interpreters of Jewish law. So, they forced Jesus into giving an answer. If he refuses to answer he will lose credibility with the very people who just proclaimed him King during the Triumphal Entry. They also forced Him to give an answer based on Scripture.
It is interesting to speculate why they asked the question in the first place. Like any good lawyer, they would only ask a question whereby the answer was reasonably expected and known beforehand. And they fully expected Jesus to say, “No, it is not lawful to pay taxes to Caesar.”.
Why did they expect that answer? First, because based on Jewish religious law, it was the correct answer. But, I suspect there is more to it than that. Jesus must have given the Pharisees and Herodians cause to believe that Jesus on other occasions taught that paying tribute to Rome was immoral. Don’t forget that one of the three charges Rome used against Jesus to crucify Him was that He did not pay the tax. That charge could not have been this particular instance because after Jesus answered them, the text says that the Herodians “marveled” (other translations say “perplexed”) and simply left, unable to accuse Jesus of anything. Therefore, I just can’t imagine there weren’t other instances where Jesus spoke against the Roman tax.
The “can’t win” trap question: “Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
They thought they had Jesus trapped!! If Jesus says “Yes”;
— It would have made Him a collaborator with the Roman occupiers
— It would have alienated the people against Him.
If Jesus says “No”;
— He would have been considered a political criminal of the worst kind
— He would incur the full wrath of Rome.
In either case, he would have likely been killed … perhaps on the spot. But, Jesus immediately recognizes the trap, and exposes the hostility and the hypocrisy of His interrogators.
THE BRILLIANT NON-ANSWER
““Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
The first observation, a painfully obvious one, is that Jesus does not directly answer the question. There isn’t a “Yes” or “No” response. Instead, He makes a comment that leads to question-begging; what exactly does belong to Caesar, what exactly does belong to God? He didn’t answer that either. Because …. the Jews already knew that answer.
Everything belongs to God! The heavens belong to God; “To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it.” The earth belongs to God; ‘the earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it’. Cows and animals belong to God; “For every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.” The land belongs to God; “The land shall not be sold in perpetuity; for the land is mine, and you are but aliens who have become my tenants.” The treasures in the earth belong to God; “’The silver is mine and the gold is mine’, declares the Lord Almighty”. Your very breath belongs to God; “You turn your face away, they suffer, you stop their breath, they die. You give breath, fresh life begins.”. And when you breath you last breath in this temporal plane, your very soul belongs to God; “Behold all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine.”
So, think about it. What is left to give to Caesar? Nothing!
Jesus surreptitiously (the Romans never caught on!) declares that the claims of Caesar (he thought he owned everything) and the claims of God are mutually exclusive. To those who have faith, God owns everything, and Caesar’s claims are, by necessity, illegitimate. Therefore, you owe him nothing! To those who do not have faith, Caesar is owed at least the coin that bears his image. Jesus invites the listeners, again surreptitiously, to choose their allegiance.
The Tribute story is very similar in form to the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery. Here, once again, the Pharisees attempt to trap Jesus by asking a loaded question; should the adulteress be stoned according to the Law? If Jesus says ‘yes, stone her’, then he gives a legally correct answer, but it undermines his message of mercy and forgiveness. If He says ‘no’, then he gives a morally correct answer, but it undermines his authority as Rabbi by not adhering to the Law..
In both cases, people would turn against Him. Instead, Jesus gives another non-answer; “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” No one in the audience was hoping Jesus would say, “Stone her!!”. Likewise, no one in the Tribute story was hoping Jesus would say, “Pay tax to the Roman oppressors!”. But, here is the very salient point; the audience of that day would have inferred the right answer embedded in Jesus’ non-answer response!
Absolutely no one would have mistaken Jesus’ non-direct response as the go-ahead to stone the woman. Likewise, absolutely no one would have mistaken Jesus’ non-direct response as an endorsement of paying Caesar’s taxes. In fact, the exact opposite is true; His Jewish audience would have understood that Jesus meant the tribute was illicit. It was only the Romans (and most Americans) who foolishly believed Jesus’ comments benefited government tax coffers.
Does Jesus Compartmentalize?? The other major flaw I see in the Jesus-endorses-taxes theory is that it artificially forces Jesus’ belief system into two compartments; compartment #1 is stuff that belongs to God and, compartment #2 is stuff that belongs to Caesar … two separate and distinct spheres of activity. How is this believable?? Where else does Jesus do this? He seems to me to be an “all in” type of Teacher. Pick one, or pick another, but you can’t pick both. If you believe that Jesus is teaching that sometimes we need to choose for God and against Caesar, then the opposite must also be logically true – that one can choose for Caesar and against God. Perish the thought!
That there are two separate and distinct realms, Caesar’s and God’s, makes sense to most Americans given our Constitutional decree … the separation of church and state. But, that doesn’t make the popular Tribute interpretation correct. It merely points to the fact that one should never interpret Scripture with “American eyes”, for doing so will inevitably lead you far astray.
IN CLOSING
I’m not trying to convince anyone to not pay their taxes. If you think it’s your patriotic and civic duty to pay taxes, then by all means do so. Just don’t think you’re doing God’s will! On the other hand, maybe someday you’ll be in heaven standing next to a young girl who was murdered via collateral-damage from an American Drone mission, and God will say, “Bob, your taxes paid for that.”, and I wonder how you will feel. What I’m saying is that if you need a religious reason to not pay taxes, maybe you have one now.
The pro-tax position of the Tribute story simply is not supportable historically, rhetorically, contextually, or spiritually. The only support for the pro-tax position amounts to little more than “it sounds reasonable”, while ignoring all other evidence against their position.
The Greek word translated “render” is ‘apodidomi’ which means “to give back.”. With that in mind, here is my paraphrase of the appropriate passage;
“Jesus looked at the coin and said, “Sure, that looks like his image. It’s his. Go ahead, give him back his coin! And, by the way, everything else belongs to God!”
That sounds more like Jesus.
Kudos, Stucky.
This is largely my interpretation of scripture as well, on this subject.
Render unto Guido (the mob’s extortionist) that which you must, in order to survive, while never forgetting that Guido is Not Your Friend, and everyone who sucks up to him is an asshole.
Society and the Political System are NOT synonymous. The political system is a parasite, and civil society operates in SPITE of Caesar, not because of him. Everything we need from our interactions with our fellow men can be provided best by the market, even so-called “public goods” like crime suppression.
Sadly, we are surrounded by slaves who love their servitude. They cannot imagine a world without slavery, so they actively consent to Guido, the extortionist’s demands. They even contribute their sons (and now daughters) when Guido insists that the Huns are coming over yon hill, and those sons (and now daughters) must be sacrificed on the Altar of Mars, God of War, so Raytheon and its many fellow travelers in the Military Industrial Complex can get paid, their engineers send their kids to college and Congressmen have their campaign contributions maximized.
Good work, Stucky. John
I suspect I won’t be see you folks in a while.
Revolution in one thread. Tax revolt in this one.
I got FEMA reeducation written all over me.
Awesome Stucky – Thanks
Stucky- Could you explain all this to the IRS . Thanks
When Jesus overturned the money changers tables in the Temple, it was not about taxes it was about paying for worship in the Temple (like tithing in Christian chuches). His point was you should not have to pay money to worship God. Even though the word tithe means a tax assessment of one tenth. The Egyptian priests made a killing off selling statuary and other things with the same grift that you pay the priest or you can’t go to heaven.
I have always believed Jesus was upset over the demand for money to worship. The money you put in the offering plate at church does not go to the IRS today and maybe Caesar had his hand in the plate, so tell me if I am wrong. You explained it perfectly about his answer about rendering unto Caesar and unto God .
“I have always believed Jesus was upset over the demand for money to worship” — Bea
I’m not so sure about that, Bea. Jewish law — derived from Torah passages — REQUIRED every man should pay a tribute of “half a shekel” …. a JEWISH coin.
However, being under Roman rule, the in-use money was a Roman coin.
So, “money changers” would provide the convenience of exchanging a Roman coin for the shekel. So far, so good. The text tells us exactly why Jesus was so angry — “You have made my house a den of thieves!”. Logical question; what thievery? I suspect it was because the money changers charged a tidy sum for their services. It was a very profitable business, and often resulted in fraud against the poorest.
According to the Law, the very poor could offer two doves to be offered in sacrifice. But it was difficult to bring birds if you lived from from the Temple. So birds were also sold, apparently at gouging prices. Lastly, cattle and sheep were also sold. The place was both a Bank and a freaking zoo.
All of this took place ON the Temple grounds. We know from another passage that Jesus did not condemn the Temple tax. So, I wonder if Jesus would not have been so angry if the exchange took place OUTSIDE the confines of the Temple. All these transactions almost certainly took place in an area defined as The Court Of Gentiles. As the name implies, it was were Gentiles could worship God. Jesus said it should be a “house of prayer”, but with all that activity going on, there was no room at all for the Gentile believers to pray.
Also, did you know Jesus cleaned out the money changers twice? The second time was just before his death. The first time (John 2 ) was after His first miracle.
I have no idea if I answered your question.
Stucky , I do appreciate you taking the time to write but…..There is no constitutional decree of Separation of church and state. THAT is nowhere in the Constitution .Second there are no separate realms in the bible.No separate and distinct realms at all .This separation is from the mind of men not God.
One thing you seem to forget is Jesus Christ is God.The New Testament was written by Disciples of Christ inspired by the Holy Spirit .The apostles repeatedly tell the early church to obey the governing authorities. In other words … Render unto Caesar…..
The IRS — one of the most evil American institutions of all time — can go suck on my Harry Ballz.
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“One thing you seem to forget is Jesus Christ is God.” ———– bb
Two things; 1) no, I haven’t — 2) so what!
Although I write religious articles from time to time — two in the past weekl! — I don’t sermonize, preach, or do Bible studies.
I present my views … take it or leave it … it’s all A-Ok with me. I’ll leave the “Jesus is God” stuff to you. My purposes in talking about Jesus and the Bible, in terms of my articles, has to do with how it affects life in the here and now, on earth. I’ve said that before. You don’t seem to get it.
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“In other words … Render unto Caesar…..” ———– bb
I would expect no different from you. You’re not the independent-thinker type. You’re a follower. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. The world needs both thinkers and followers. Enjoy your servitude.
bb
The apostles did not tell the Church or Christ’s people -the collective body of which is the Church- to obey the authorities above God, in fact Jesus as well as the apostles always put God and his laws above any earthly authorities.
Why do you think Paul spent so much time in prison? or the apostles were hunted down imprisoned and and killed for speaking of God as supreme above all other authorities? Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo thrown in in the furnace, Daniel in the Lions Den, the early Christians killed in the arena, middle eastern Christians today being beheaded for refusing to worship under Islam, Christian bakers and florists legally persecuted and ruined for refusing to take part in the Satanic ritual of homosexual marriage, Christians fired from jobs and forced out of the military and government service and on and on and on ………… Do you really believe this is what is referred to when talking about obeying the authorities?
Jesus himself forbade rendering the things of God unto Caesar and restricted what could be given to Caesar only that which originally belonged to and was created by him, in the scripture this article references. There are some things that rightfully belong under the authority of the State, but those things are not above the authority of God and cannot be placed ahead of him. God demands some things and forbids others and the State has no authority to change this or to violate those demands and laws.
Stucky
You very clearly present a nuance that I was not aware of. —Thank You!
That is no small difference.
BB Says:
“The apostles repeatedly tell the early church to obey the governing authorities. In other words … Render unto Caesar…..”
Yet the bible warns us repeatedly about idolatry. Maybe the trick is to engage that which God gave you between your ears. Fear God, respect your fellow man as he warrants it and remember He knows what is in your heart. Eternity is a “heap” long time – check your conscience.
Respectfully,
Francis
Please keep writing Stucky. Very interesting
“Even most Christians believe in the state, though Jesus never urged his followers to take political action. A very devout and intelligent Catholic socialist friend of mine argues that Jesus legitimized the state when he said, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”
But that’s reading an awful lot into a few words. Jesus wasn’t preaching to his followers at that moment; he certainly wasn’t preaching statism, let alone the authority of pagan emperors who claimed divinity and demanded idolatry. No, he was retorting to a trick question from his enemies, and he answered with a witty tautology. It might have been taken to mean, “Give Caesar everything he claims, and also give God his due.” But it could also mean, “Give Caesar nothing, and God everything.” Or it might mean something else; Jesus didn’t specify.
It was a brilliant ad lib. Jesus’ enemies were trying to bait him into endorsing either idolatry or sedition, and he deftly sidestepped them with a sentence the world still remembers. Not exactly a hearty vote of confidence in those who wield power, it seems to me.”
Jesus’ Government
A classic by Joseph Sobran
https://tinyurl.com/4n9w
Thanks Stucky. Keep it up. If Christians (me included) were willing to stand up for what is right maybe there would not have been a 16th amendment to the the Constitution. I am not sure when they came up with the “tax-exempt” status for churches, but it wouldn’t surprise me to find out it was a payoff to the “Church” for support of the progressive BS income tax. There is no more immoral tax than the income tax and right behind it the property tax.
I agree God owns all land and a cattle on a thousand hills. We are stewards today of whatever gifts we have been given and whatever we “have” in this world is not going with us, but we just might be judged on how we used what has been graciously given to us. And those in power are accountable for how they use the ill-gotten confiscated tax monies.
Hey great stuff – very interesting. Loved it, many thanks.
And to bb – fuck off. So many of these lame fundamentalist bible thumpers getting all holier than thou, but in fact too fucking stupid to be anything other than an uppity sheep trying to get one up on the rest of us. But hey, peace & love 😉
Petro ,is that all you got ?*Prideful little turd .
As far as I can tell Jesus didn’t say taxes were illegal or against his wishes..Maybe when taxes become plundering then we no longer obey.
For the record , I hate paying taxes. I Bitch a lot here on BP about getting hit with new taxes .Every quarter I am reminded how much I detest paying taxes but I don’t see taxes as something against GOD or His will.Paying taxes is not really the problem. It’s government that’s the problem. It is unlawful plundering that is criminal.
Modern day Jesus
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Admin start paying Stucky to keep writing stuff like this and the make him do it once a week. Say 15.00 a week. Really Stucky thanks for your time on your writings. Bet you could make a living with this stuff.
Thanks Stuck for clarifying the issue of what Jesus declares belongs to the state versus what belongs to God.
The are clearly two minds on this question. One, Jesus demands obedience to the state and the other , Jesus declares nothing but coin for the state, and in the end game, even that belongs to God.
The interpretation of Jesus ambiguous answer , when put to various Christians friends , family and acquaintances is very useful in determining those in whom you can or cannot place your trust.,especially in these days of exponential police state growth.
For example, take bb.He believes that all things demanded of the state , should be turned over tot eh state, no questions asked..He is the classical confused Christians statist and should no be trusted with personal information that could leave you destitute or incarcerated.
He first loyalty is to the state , and should be duly noted for personal safety reason.
All who declare that God is the first and foremost authority in our lives and we owe it all to him, is the one Christian you can trust. And , so it goes, the interpretation of this ambiguous answer of Jesus serves the most important purpose of all. It brilliantly separates the untrustworthy Sunshine Statist Christians from the Winter Christians, the true servants of God.
I did my best, it wasn’t much
I couldn’t feel, so I tried to touch
I’ve told the truth, I didn’t come to fool you
And even though it all went wrong
I’ll stand before the Lord of Song
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah
—Leonard Cohen
bb says: Maybe when taxes become plundering then we no longer obey.
For the record , I hate paying taxes. I Bitch a lot here on BP about getting hit with new taxes .Every quarter I am reminded how much I detest paying taxes but I don’t see taxes as something against GOD or His will.Paying taxes is not really the problem. It’s government that’s the problem. It is unlawful plundering that is criminal.
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Actually, you’re wrong on (at least) two counts: Taxes ARE plundering. Taxes are very simply stealing from you at the point of a gun. That is the very definition of plunder. Which is why taxes ARE the problem.
They’re stealing from you, bb. Can’t you see that? If I do not have the right to come and take 25% of your salary because I have less than you, it is no more a right for a group of people to take your money.
If one person doesn’t have the right, many people don’t make it a right.
You’ve gotta see this for what it is.
flash
You’re welcome. Excellent comments.
“Hallelujah” is a mighty fine song … and Cohen does it as well as anybody.
24 million hits, man! I know it’s been posted here before … enjoy it one more time.
Stuck, regarding the adulteress story. Anyone who chose to throw the first stone would have been claiming to be without sin. This is the highest form of blasphemy. Punishable by……stoning. It wasn’t just embarrassment that caused the crowd to filter away. It was self-preservation
actual tweet from bb’s god.
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That’s a great song but that has to be the worst version I have ever heard.
“That’s a great song but that has to be the worst version I have ever heard.” —- HF
GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!!
He sings it with PASSION and FEELING. 83,706 likes on youtube … so I ain’t alone in thinking so. I like ya, HF … but I never understand why anyone takes the time to write one-liner shit-on-your-parade type posts.
Taste in music is highly subjective, for sure. Maybe you’ll like Bon Jovi’s version better.
~ Orson Scott Card author of “Speaker for the Dead”
“A Great Rabbi stands, teaching in the marketplace. It happens that a husband finds proof that morning of his wife’s adultery, and a mob carries her to the marketplace to stone her to death.
There is a familiar version of this story, but a friend of mine – a Speaker for the Dead – has told me of two other Rabbis that faced the same situation. Those are the ones I’m going to tell you.
The Rabbi walks forward and stands beside the woman. Out of respect for him the mob forbears and waits with the stones heavy in their hands. ‘Is there any man here,’ he says to them, ‘who has not desired another man’s wife, another woman’s husband?’
They murmur and say, ‘We all know the desire, but Rabbi none of us has acted on it.’
The Rabbi says, ‘Then kneel down and give thanks that God has made you strong.’ He takes the woman by the hand and leads her out of the market. Just before he lets her go, he whispers to her, ‘Tell the Lord Magistrate who saved his mistress, then he’ll know I am his loyal servant.’
So the woman lives because the community is too corrupt to protect itself from disorder.
Another Rabbi. Another city. He goes to her and stops the mob as in the other story and says, ‘Which of you is without sin? Let him cast the first stone.’
The people are abashed, and they forget their unity of purpose in the memory of their own individual sins. ‘Someday,’ they think, ‘I may be like this woman. And I’ll hope for forgiveness and another chance. I should treat her as I wish to be treated.’
As they opened their hands and let their stones fall to the ground, the Rabbi picks up one of the fallen stones, lifts it high over the woman’s head and throws it straight down with all his might it crushes her skull and dashes her brain among the cobblestones. ‘Nor am I without sins,’ he says to the people, ‘but if we allow only perfect people to enforce the law, the law will soon be dead – and our city with it.’
So the woman died because her community was too rigid to endure her deviance.
The famous version of this story is noteworthy because it is so startlingly rare in our experience. Most communities lurch between decay and rigor mortis and when they veer too far they die. Only one Rabbi dared to expect of us such a perfect balance that we could preserve the law and still forgive the deviation.
So of course, we killed him.
-San Angelo
Letters to an Incipient Heretic”
pauncho,
That scripture is also a teaching that condemns the hypocrisy of a double standard (something widely practiced in today’s world).
It is, I think, one of the most out of context scriptures used by non Christians (some of whom call themselves Christians but are not) to quiet Christians who bring up the laws of God and sin.
They never seem to read the part of that scripture that says you will be judged by the standard you use to judge and realize they are using Biblical standards into their own judgment when using it and bringing those standards on themselves by doing it.
This scripture also brings the forgiveness of sin for the repentant, and points out that sin and law are still sin and law when Jesus says “Go forth and sin no more” even though most out of context quote’s seem to ignore this and use it to claim that the sin is really OK. It in no way sets aside the law and allows consequence free sin as some would have us believe.
There are numerous other lessons in this scripture as well.
When chickens commit adultery.
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Before Jesus said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”, he bent down and wrote something in the dirt. The Bible does not say what he wrote, but I like to think that he wrote the names of the woman the pharisees were sleeping with….
Great read Stucky. I think even though you are done with the modern ‘church, that’ you still have a part to play in The Church.
Stucky, honestly it just sounds like he didn’t want to be there. It sounded wore out rather than uplifting.
I love this version-
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I am not good at that.
Rufus Wainwright version, best I can do for you.
Thank you Stuck. Thank you so much, very well thought out.
The paying of tribute to the Jews, Romans, Italians, French, Germans, English and now, Americans, has been around since, well, forever. In nearly EVERY society, culture and religion, the rulers are either gods, or put in place by god’s will. And that is why you must pay them, your duty is to pay your god, in his earthly form.
What is interesting is that our New 21st Century Gods, The Almighty/All-knowing State(s), are using some of God’s rules to take our property from us and/or limit our use of God-given substances and the sovereignty of a body owned by God, not other men. Inheritance laws are being solidified for the very, very, elite, and eliminated for us little guys that can’t afford the exemptions. The statement about the land in perpetuity got me really thinking.
The other night I awoke in the middle of the night (exhausting fun, eye-opening, adult-type weekend including an event with the Long Island Medium, kid you not, I slept most of the day Sunday) and ended up watching a few minutes of a middle of the night preacher. He is the guy that preaches about God’s promise of bounty to those that plant seeds. Anyway, he was praying for healing and being debt-free (how I love that part), and I grabbed my HB and read along. When he was done I shut the tv back off (3 am) and randomly thumbed open the NT.
What do my eyes fall upon, but Mark’s telling of Jesus’ teaching and travels. I had not read those exact passages since my young teens, and the message resonated within.
In Mark, I believe it is 7, verses 6 & 7, Jesus curses the “believers” that are making the prophesies be true (sounds more like news stories hidden under the guise of “God-given” prophesy to keep your head attached to your neck. Christianity fixed it by outlawing prophets, mediums and seers, a few centuries later)
He and the Apostles are asked why they are committing blasphemy by not pouring water over their cupped hands before eating.
He gets angry and says those that worship with lips and ceremonies, but do not follow God’s law, not the flavors of man, are not pure in the eyes of his Father.
These are also the passages that tells us God made NO edible animal unclean, that demanding acquiesce to the State or the Church/Temple is the SAME thing as telling God to f*ck off. He also warns of doctors that do nothing but drain the life of His people. Doctors that were mandated by the Temple and/or by Caesar.
I blame a Church who’s very existence is dependent on the centuries long intentional misrepresentation of scripture. From the beginning we mere mortals were taught to worship the Church first, for without it we would have no shot at God. Then, we have faced an eternity of flames, and possibly a death of one too, if we didn’t follow the laws of man.
If you read, and re-read, and see again, the ACTUAL words, it never, ever, ever, says it is okay to place the State’s will before God’s. In fact, time and again, Jesus tells them that they are creating earthly gods of men, and that men were not meant to rule other men (ever think THAT might have been the real Garden of Eden outcome, not sex? nah, God subjugates and blames women).
Anyway, I have been immersed in exactly these points of internal contention for the past few weeks/months. I should thank @bb and a few other fundies around here.
Without their, and some close family/friends, bigotry, close-mindedness, judgement and hatred, I wouldn’t felt the need to soothe my soul, and my consciousness, and find the words of God to show me that I am on the right path in wanting, so very desperately, to show and see, love and compassion towards our other flawed co-inhabitants. The constant death, revenge, forced suffering under the guise of medicine and herd protection (drug laws), the constant hate and demands for justice, has driven me to try and find some peace with all that I cannot, in good conscious, agree to.
Bless you bb. While reading My Lord’s words the other night, it came to me that the next time I saw you spewing Statist-propaganda or hatred, I am supposed to tell you that no matter what, Jesus still loves you and we both bless you.
thanks again Stuck.
but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.
The whole “cast the first stone” story? Yeah, about that…
Jesus Forgives a Woman Taken in Adultery
This story, beloved for its revelation of God’s mercy toward sinners, is found only in John. It was almost certainly not part of John’s original Gospel. The NIV separates this passage off from the rest of the Gospel with the note, “The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53–8:11.” That is, the earliest Greek manuscripts, the earliest translations and the earliest church fathers all lack reference to this story. Furthermore, some manuscripts place it at other points within John (after 7:36, 7:44 or 21:25), others include it in the Gospel of Luke (placing it after Luke 21:38), and many manuscripts have marks that indicate the scribes “were aware that it lacked satisfactory credentials” (Metzger 1994:189). Furthermore, it contains many expressions that are more like those in the Synoptic Gospels than those in John.
It appears to have been a well-known story, one of many that circulated orally from the beginning yet that none of the Gospel writers were led to include. But some in the later church thought this one was too good to leave out. The controversy with the teachers of the law and the Pharisees (v. 3) is similar to stories found in the Synoptics, as is the theme of God’s mercy mediated by Jesus.
Those who believe that authorship is a primary criterion for canonicity will suspect or even reject this passage. Most of Christendom, however, has received this story as authoritative, and modern scholarship, although concluding firmly that it was not a part of John’s Gospel originally, has generally recognized that this story describes an event from the life of Christ. Furthermore, it is as well written and as theologically profound as anything else in the Gospels.
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Jesus-Forgives-Woman-Taken
NOT trying to torpedo or sharpshoot Stucky’s nice article. It is well-written and thought provoking.
However, citing the parable of the adulterous woman – the whole ‘cast the first stone’ story – and using it as an example to backstop his point is dubious, being as that bit does not appear in any of our earliest scriptures (those that would become what we now know as the “New Testament”).
Even though the above passage states that “modern scholarship, although concluding firmly that it was not a part of John’s Gospel originally, has generally recognized that this story describes an event from the life of Christ.”, knowing that the origins of the ‘cast the first stone’ parable are dubious and murky, what is the alternative at this point? Those stories were accepted as being part of the “New Testament” 1500 years ago and certified genuine by “infallible” Popes (infallible insofar as matters of spirituality are concerned).
If the story is admitted to be made up, then by default the Popes are not infallible. If the origins of the story are ignored and the story is accepted as genuine, then those “infallible” Popes are guilty of perpetrating a fraud.
Neither option is particularly attractive, so the whole matter is often ignored and buried.
Again, NOT attacking Stucky. Just saying that if you’re going to write an article, just make sure what you use to backstop your points cannot be attacked and impeached successfully.
Other than that, good post Stucky.
Heh… no pleasing some people, apparently.
Just make sure what you use to backstop your points cannot be attacked and impeached successfully. – Billy
___________________
The cast the first stone story, is not a parable.
What a great way to explain all the players involved, about as bad as all the players in Game of Thrones you need a running tally.
Wish I would have had you as a teacher in my early Catholic school days, I bet you would have made religious education fun and entertaining, not dull, repetitious and boring.
But at my age (17) the only good thing about religion class was the 18 year old brunette that taught me many ways of satisfaction without intercourse. Oh God indeed, she was very talented and I was a very attentive student…
My son, best friend and I know many others claim there is no historical evidence Jesus ever existed. I’ve always argued the man may have not existed like the animal spirits of the Native Americans, but the teachings are what is more important not the proof of existence.
TE
I never feel fully satisfied reading comments on my posts until you comment. Excellent commentary, and thank you or adding your unique, interesting, and helpful thoughts!
The cast the first stone story, is not a parable. – dilligaf
You mean it’s not a parable for us, not a parable when Jesus allegedly said it or not a parable in general?
parable noun
“a short story that teaches a moral or spiritual lesson, especially one of those told by Jesus as recorded in the Bible”
Source: Oxford Dictionary
Because it most certainly fits the definition of “parable” for us, especially in light of the ABSOLUTE FACT that the events portrayed in John 7:53–8:11 WERE NOT INCLUDED in the earliest scriptures.
Which means someone made them up after the fact, THEN included them into the gospels at some point several centuries later…
Which means it IS a “story” meant to teach a moral or spiritual lesson.
It’s just not a true story.
Nice try though.
You have failed to correctly appreciate the conditions of the time of Jesus. Rome, just looking for an excuse to obliterate the troublesome Jewish state, would have done so in a heartbeat if the Jews refused to pay taxes. Taxes kept the empire alive, one province allowed to escape taxes would have given the others ideas… this condition Rome would not tolerate.
Jesus as well instructed the people to obey the Pharisees even though he knew the state of their corruption – until the Most Highs removed them from power. Jesus never preached rebellion, always to follow the law and adjust one’s resentment so that peace could be maintained for he knew that eventually “they” would be removed from power… the Jews failure to do so removed the protection that had safeguarded them for so long resulting in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.
“I bet you would have made religious education fun and entertaining, not dull, repetitious and boring.” ——– card802
Thank you. I don’t toot my own horn very often …. because I don’t have all that many useful skills, honestly …. but, teaching is one I do have. My Bible classes/studies were always packed full … and people kept coming back!
I taught quite a few classes while with HP, and they were almost always full, and I rarely received a score lower than a perfect ’10’ in the post-class reviews. I even had a small following around the Midwest as some folks who needed a specific class, would wait however long necessary until they saw I was the instructor.
So, when I read your words … it was music to my ears … because sometimes I still wonder ‘what the hell am I good for, really?”
You fuckers are something else.
The situation so far:
Me: “The “Adulterous Woman” story has dubious and murky origins and was never part of our original scriptures. Here’s proof. Stucky shouldn’t use that parable to backstop his points.” (gets thumbs down)
dildogaf: (Ignores everything else, focuses on one thing he thinks he can get traction with) “It’s not a parable”. (Apparently because he says so, being as he offers no proof. Gets thumbs up).
Me: “Here’s the definition of “parable”. It fits and doesn’t change the fact that it’s still made up.” (Gets thumbs down).
No satisfying you thumbs-down douche canoes, proof or no proof…
I bet if I went back to 33 AD in a time machine and brought Jesus Himself back here and He said “No, I didn’t say that.”, you fuckers would STILL downvote that shit…
You’ll sit there and thumbs down shit, but won’t DARE square off against me in open forum… fuckin’ cowards.
Y’all can kiss my chocolate starfish. Buncha zealot shitheads…
Stucky,
You wrote one helluva article. Good on ya. +1 all the way around.
I just want you to know my efforts here are not designed to take the focus off of what you wrote or hijack the thread. It’s simply a sub-argument about a bit of Christian canon that has dubious origins and my posts are not intended to discount everything – or even anything – you’ve written. Because I agree with what you’ve written.
Just wanted you to know that.
HA!
Three days ago the temps were in the upper 70’s, watching it snow right now and I was feeling gloomy until Billy just made my day. Chocolate starfish! You have great passion, thumbs up!
@Billy, without your actual citations as to where your info came that the verses were added to the gospels and when they all came together nicely, truly, yours is but one more opinion. An opinion my research would lead me to guess is right, but I have absolutely no basis to say so.
So, in order to rebut you, I would have to go forth and find your information, and then find other information, and then come to a conclusion. I’m in the middle of a big work project and have enough of my own ideas to flesh out, so if you want to help out, I’d be happy for it!
@Stuck, aw shucks. I swear you were put in my virtual path.
Billy +Stucky , I wrote you guys something over at the 10 things I am grateful for post .You people of Germany background need to read .
@Card, for your kids, I used it on mine too, he no longer argues that Jesus was never a real man.
The Annals, which are the only “official” Roman info from that time, referred to Christus and the Christus cult.
Later historians also felt the need to talk about his “cult” and to find scientific/naturalist/Roman God ways to explain away the darkness that was recorded as having fallen across the land the afternoon of his death.
Here is a link that show where Christ has shown up in secular historical documents.
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/Historical%20evidence%20on%20the%20exhistance%20of%20Jesus.htm
If he didn’t exist as a man, then why the big deal made of him from Jerusalem all the way to Rome?
Why would the ancient Roman rulers solidify his existence if he never existed? They wouldn’t, the reason they were killing Christians is because they could not stamp out the truth that they allowed the Jews to convince them to kill the man. Or kill the Son of God. Whichever, it happened.
And it is historically verified. Hugs!
card,
Thanks.
You say you’re 17.
Thirty years ago when I was your age and was studying scripture (both Catholic grade school and high school), it dawned on me that the Douay Rheims Bible was composed of books that were approved for inclusion.
Which meant that there was a list. And that list was comprised of books that were also not approved for inclusion into the Catholic bible…
Which led me to researching which books had not made the cut, and why. Moreover, it led me to researching the backstory on what was approved for inclusion and why.
This stuff is all ancient history, literally. The guys who approved the inclusion of the Adulterous Woman story 1500 years ago knew the provenance of the story was disputed and murky, but they included it anyways because 1) it made a good story and 2) taught a lesson they thought kept with the teachings of Christ.
By the way, provenance means “the place of origin or earliest known history of something”.
This puts the Church in a bind, literally, as cited above.
That all of this is known to anyone who has done any amount of historical research into the matter is not important to people who like to believe that the Bible – whichever particular version they champion – is word-for-word truth. That you can point out obvious fallacies, contradictions and errors does not matter. Any word spoken that challenges their puny world view is taken as heresy and you are to be punished for it.
Even if that punishment can only be a thumbs down in a forum somewhere… this is how small their minds are and how pathetic and petty these people are.
It is good and right to challenge everything about the world, to seek proof and discover the truth for one’s self. It is how the Almighty made us. The people who do the thumbs down thing are the types who never seek truth, never challenge or test anything, and would probably still be living in caves, cowering at the sky gods that brought storms and lightning, thinking they did something wrong if it wasn’t for the rest of us dragging their sorry asses along with us…
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