By Francis Marion of Canadiangunblog.com
I used to write about this topic a fair bit when I was younger. It was part of a naval gazing exercise that hunters who write do in general. But as I’ve aged the novelty surrounding the process has worn off. I’ll admit I enjoy writing about the activity itself and how it relates to life in this world but trying to explain to others (especially nonhunters) the ‘why’ of it all has gotten old for me.
It’s an emotional topic mostly and when you are dealing with something that is emotional it is difficult to move people with either your own passion, reason or a combination of the two. Moreover, given the age in which we live, there are topics that concern me more that affect us all and create common ground such as culture (which this topic is arguably related to in a very narrow fashion), finance and politics.
But Stucky (who I know respects me but who I think is not a fan of what I do) suggested that I write about it anyways to create a break in the routine of discussing everything else. Although I politely thanked him for his suggestion and told him I’d think about it I’ll admit that inside I was thinking, “No fucking way”. I didn’t want the headache that the aftermath could create as such things consume time that I could better use either working, reading, exercising or hanging out with my family.
But then I thought, “I don’t have an editor.” I’m not writing for a publication that is concerned about ‘controversy’ (quite the opposite) and I don’t have to do things the way I used to or the way that others who are tied to major outdoor publications have to. I can be myself and write it the way I think it should be written. So here we go.
This is the TBP and the first rule when writing anything on TBP is, to be honest. So lets, because before we can get to the ‘why’ of things we have to tell the truth.
First. If you are emotional and you feel disgusted when you look at the picture at the top of the article then you need to know one very important thing: I don’t care. If you are that easily triggered then your feelings don’t matter to me. Whining, bitching, moaning, crying, outrage, swearing, and name calling will fall on deaf ears. That is the first truth.
The second truth will dispell a common myth espoused by almost every modern hunter and that is, “we need to hunt”. The truth is, we don’t.
‘Need’ has become a very nebulous term in the modern world and it is abused in ways that I cannot even begin to cover in an essay of this length. But man, and this applies to almost every culture from one end of the globe to the other, hasn’t ‘needed’ to hunt since he crawled out of the cave and discovered agriculture. For that matter, I consider the argument (from need) in favor of consuming meat equally as shaky given that man can survive quite well on a diet of nuts, fruit, vegetables, and grains.
But there is a difference between surviving and thriving and between observing and participating. Most hunters are poor passive observers. For me, a mountain is there to climb for two reasons: for conditioning and because there is something worth killing at the top of it. The view is nice but is a bit like the salad on my plate; it is a side dish of some importance but not the reason I came to dinner.
Most of the arguments for or against this activity are based on the idea of ‘need’. But very little we do in this world is actually related to ‘need’. What do we ‘need’ anyway?
To survive, at a very elementary level, we ‘need’ about three things: we need food and water, shelter and the opportunity to reproduce. Everything else after that is ‘want’.
‘Want’ is the window dressing on humanity. It is what leads to organization, molds culture and births civilizations.
Most of the things we argue over with regards to who we should be, both as individuals and as groups are centered around the conflicting wants of all. The argument for hunting is an argument over ‘wants’, not of ‘needs’ and should be addressed accordingly.
To the uninitiated and to those whose minds are filled with misinformation fed to them by the MSM and a variety of environmental groups they will distinguish between two different “types of hunting”: trophy and meat hunting or recreational and subsistence. That there is a dichotomy between the two is a myth. Since no hunting is based on ‘need’ and only ‘want’ all hunting is recreational. And all of it produces meat.
The problem is that nonhunters (and some hunters for that matter) have been conditioned to believe that recreational hunting is unnecessary and destructive. But modern hunting is neither. In fact, something that is based on ‘want’ which does no harm to other people can be neither unnecessary nor necessary. It only becomes one or the other based on the bias of either participant in the argument.
Hunting is a ‘want’ that is a mathematically sustainable activity. It can exist only in a context where the primary reason for its existence, game, is present. In order for hunting to exist, game must exist, ergo, its continued existence must be ensured through the process of conservation. Without conservation of the resource (game), there is no hunting and thus no hunter. Wildlife is valuable to hunters because without it we’d be like everyone else; passive observers. As such we have become quite adept at maximizing game populations where we can for our consumption. This model is based on want. It is sustainable and game populations as a whole benefit wherever it is practiced.
But this begs the question: why do we want to do it if we don’t have to?
It’s a fair question and not necessarily an easy one to answer. Many of our ancestors hunted for the same reasons we do: to supplement our diet with game meat, for recreation and for cultural purposes such as rights of passage, camaraderie and the like. But I believe it goes deeper than that. Hunting kept our ancestors connected to nature’s cycles in a way that is similar to but more ancient than agriculture. Hunting, like agriculture, is a part of the natural cycles of the planet; of climate, season, time, birth, decay and death. Participation in its rituals and processes keeps us connected to those who came before and the natural world from which we come. And it does so in a manner which simply observing something cannot.
It’s no coincidence that we refer to the process of killing game as a ‘harvest’ or that the majority of it occurs in the fall and early winter of the year. In a sense, we farm game much in the same way that we farm domesticated animals. We do our best to steward the resource to ensure that populations are healthy and sustainable so that future generations can remain connected to the past and the natural world in the same way that all those who came before did.
If you are wondering what drives us on a personal level, outside of tradition, I doubt I can explain it to you. All I can tell you is that hunting is not for everyone. For example, my brother tried it on several occasions but found it is not in him to do. Thus over the years, I have concluded that some of us are simply wired differently in this aspect. We’re not all the same when it comes to how we view other living creatures and we’re not going to be.
So here’s the final truth.
I’m not an exceptional man. I live a relatively unassuming and humble life. But I am a rational apex predator that would travel to the ends of the earth, endure heatstroke, frostbite, dehydration and even risk death to go hunting. And in the end, so long as it’s sustainable (and it is) the only person I have to justify anything to with regards to this topic is a 5′ 9″ strawberry blonde that calls herself Mrs. Marion.
So there you have it. I hunt because I’m a hunter. And in a free country, that’s enough. Because unless you are one, you won’t understand. And I don’t expect you to.
Respectfully, whoever you are and regarding whatever you do, I wish the same for you.
Sincerely – Francis
*All Photos by Francis and hunting party.
I give no thumbs up or down towards hunting. If an argument is made for conservation, my question is who is this conserving being done for? Is it humans since we need ever more land for our “wants” or is it for the animals?
I do think I understand the hunter mindset though. I have met many a hunter. They seem to love nature and are conservatives.
In the area I live (Northern Virginia/DC/MD tri-state area), police are/have been hunting deer in parks close to homes/roads and commercial areas because nature is causing problems for human “wants”.
Personally, I would like to see human population culled just a bit.
Demorpheus think it goan come sooner you think. Morph worried. Some of dem crazy white peoples lose they computer job. They blame all de peoples not white. They hack the EBT cards. Doan work no more. The black peoples go crazy. Burn all the stores. Kill all de white peoples, black peoples, green peoples, everbody. When no more food, eat people. Do there be recipe for barbakue people?
Demorpheus lib 20 miles from Ferguson. Next time, Ferguson come here. DeMorpheus doan want no one eating him.
I hunt because I enjoy the meat, but I’ve never taken any particular pleasure in it other than it’s a challenge and being outdoors is always a good experience. Processing the meat is actually more fun for me. I like to know exactly where my food (vegetables and fruit included) came from and how it was produced. I’m not a big proponent of trophy hunting and would never spend a dime traveling to another country to hunt something to hang on a wall. I have a lot of friends who do like to have horns on the wall and fur on the floor. I don’t allow any black powder or bow hunting on my place because I believe in killing fast and as painlessly as possible. I also strictly limit how much hunting is done on our place and end up spending way too much time playing amateur game warden. Not all of the neighbors agree with my version of conservation, but I pay the property taxes, so I get to make the rules. I found a dead buck on the timber company owned land north of us this fall. Someone had shot the buck with a muzzleloader, cut of the rack, and left the carcass. Even though the coyotes need to eat too, that was an asshole move in my book.
Francis – you posted, so I will comment. I come from a background where hunting is ingrained. But here is the simple fact of it:
You do not need to kill for sport. There are times when there does need to be killing of wild animals, due to overpopulation, or because they are destructive, and of course for food. But that is not you, it seems. You do so for pleasure.,
I long ago abandoned sport hunting, or hunting done on the pretext it is for food.
I have hunted. My family has hunted. My tribe. I am not one of those that does not hunt so cannot understand, because I did and do understand.
Many of those pics you posted – lions, elephants, rhinos – are of apex animals.
It is very simple – to destroy a feeling creature simply because it gives you pleasure to do so is a great wrong. Nothing you can say can make that right. And I believe you know it is wrong. But what the hell – you like it. That makes it all ok, right? Whatever.
Humans really need to evolve past this crap.
So you think your meat comes from a supermarket? A well-placed bullet to an animal is much more humane than being raised on “factory farms” in crate like enclosures with little means for movement and slaughterhouse practices, where the animals are stunned and bled out before they die. Hunting is a part of the human condition.
Get over your biases…
Anarchyst – when he eats the lions, let me know. Want to hunt for food – no problem. For the joy of killing a wild animal? That is a natural wrong.
Nature is neutral if not downright cruel. Of course we know that all wild animals die a dignified death, being ripped apart by stronger and empathetic predators. Those old lions that are taken by the game hunter realize that it is one of their options. The other options are less desirable, not because of cruelty, but because there is no cruelty in nature, there is only nature!
What does that have to do with shooting a lion, rhino or elephant?
On this I am in 100% agreement.
“It is very simple – to destroy a feeling creature simply because it gives you pleasure to do so is a great wrong.”
That’s exactly how I feel about it.
But, I will give Francis Marion a great big “Atta Boy!!” for being honest about it. He did a very good job writing about needs vs wants, and that all hunting is recreational. He spared us a lot of bullshit, and I appreciated it …. even though I don’t understand it.
Stuck – there are places where food game is plentiful, and cheap to get at to harvest, making it much cheaper to hunt than to buy meat. But those places are rare. But if people live in such, and can kill cheaply for food, I understand it.
But generally, those saying they hunt for food really hunt for pleasure, as they can buy farmed meat for far less than the cost of hunting for meat.
Perhaps Mrs Freud might have a thought about the motivations of those that hunt for pleasure.
i never felt that way as a young man and someone who enjoyed hunting. i have not hunted in decades but when i did the kill was part of it.
Your comment expresses well a respectable point of view. But, I ask you to consider this: is it better to let the deer grow very old, suffer from the diseases of degeneration, then be pulled to the ground to be eaten while still alive? I am able to deal with the degenerations that come with old age, but I don’t think I would like to lie helpless while a badger or troop of raccoons gnaw my legs off.
The woman who raises the rabbits provides a very good life for her rabbits. They have a safe place to live and plentiful, nutritious food. Then, one day, when they are still in their prime, she kills them suddenly and painlessly. Have a pleasant life, then die suddenly and unexpectedly, when you are still full of health and vigor, enjoying life.
It is correct that an individual human can evolve. It is called personal growth. If he does not write or makes a video sharing that experience with others, then that evolution dies with him. The human species, in general, does not evolve. False ideas spread because professors keep telling that stories to gullible students, who do not think for themselves.
Sometimes, groups or races will seem to evolve, when the uncritical observer sees them. Usually, what we see is a recessive trait brought forth by particular circumstances, or a dominant trait perverted by exposure to propaganda. An good example would be the Swedes tolerating the activities of SJW’s and making excuses for the murderous Somali’s because their altruism, normally a good trait, has been perverted to work their destruction.
Would your tribe, whoever they are, tolerate the importation of savage parasites to live off the resources of the tribe, and murder the young members of the tribe?
Incidentally, can you share some information about the tribe and your relation to it? Like many people whose family lived in Oklahoma, one of my remote ancestors married a woman from one of the tribes when he settled alone in Okie Homa. He needed a wife for all good reasons, and one of the men in the local tribe needed to marry off the remaining daughter who was growing long in the tooth. A marriage made in Heaven, no doubt.
Since I am only about 6% Siberian, and less than 0.5% Khazar, I choose to think of myself as a member of the Ice People. I do honor my ancestors, but personal growth or personal evolution has led me to understand that I only have a passing connection to the Siberians in the Americas, did not participate in any suffering they might have experienced, and have little right to own that suffering. Now that i have evolved, you will never hear me complaining about Four Hundred Years of Slabbury.
“The woman who raises the rabbits provides a very good life for her rabbits.”
How the hell do you know?
All fucken day long those rabbits have to listen to — my Nick did this, my Nick did that, my Nick is awesome … my son is awesome … he can do everything better than your son and he speaks 34 languages … hell, I’m awesome … i got big hooters and am losing weight … I’m the best cook in the world … I’m a red rope and El Coyote is a dope … the USAF almost collapsed when I left … blah blah blah ….
Shit, by the time those rabbits are put in the pot they’re all crying out ‘Thank you jeebus!!’!. Some are even jumping into the pot on their own.
“How the hell do you know?
All fucken day long those rabbits have to listen to — my Nick did this, my Nick did that, my Nick is awesome … my son is awesome … he can do everything better than your son and he speaks 34 languages … hell, I’m awesome … i got big hooters and am losing weight.” Hats off dude. That’s world-class funny
Too funny Stucky..
Stuck,
That’s the funniest damn thing I’ve read on TBP in months!
Literally, laugh out loud!
This ain’t right. The comedian gets all the laughs and the guy that serves up the straight line gets nothing. I serve him an 80 MPH fastball down the middle at mid chest height, and he hits it out of the park. He gets a standing ovation from the crowd, but I don’t even get a tip of the hat.
Well, at least I get to be on stage, and am able to feed mama and the kids with food that I buy with the nickels and dimes the crowd throws onto the stage. Sometimes I find a quarter or old fifty cent coin, too. We get dessert on those days.
Max – you said “Would your tribe, whoever they are, tolerate the importation of savage parasites to live off the resources of the tribe, and murder the young members of the tribe?”
We did not tolerate it, but the white fuckers came anyway. Sometimes shit happens.
Choctaw.
Your analogy re dying of old age, etc., is flawed. It is nature’s way. Badgers gotta eat, too, and if the chain is broken, then there are consequences.
I understand culling, for instance, and killing for food, if it really is for food and not used as a cloak for killing for pleasure, which is predominately the case, given the costs of hunting generally far exceed the return in meat.
I have 2 adopted sibling twins. They both have American Indian lineage. One of them married a full American Indian. They had 2 daughters together. Both the mother and the 2 daughters collect money from the tribes casino as an entitlement.
They collect because they effectively own a piece of it. Guess who makes the most off the casinos? Umm, that would be the white guys that put up the funds for the casino. As a rule.
Casinos help. But Indians are far and away the poorest demographic in the US. They need to move on from the past if they want to dig out of it.
I do not begrudge them for collecting. As I said above, reading western novels growing up I always had a soft spot for the American Indian.
My AI sister in-law is a straight up loon. My 2 nieces are, sadly, in and out of all kinds of trouble/problems. Name the trouble/problems and they’ve been in it.
Mr. llpoh,
Ever been to Hugo, Oklahoma? Know what Hugos’s claim to fame is?
My great aunt was married to a Choctaw. Had two sons. Got some funny stories. Maybe the Administrator will gracefully let me post an essay. My brother and I went up to visit our great aunt a few times in the early ’80, before I went out to New Mex to follow work.
One time we were driving back through Hugo in the depths of the winter. Old Bro looked around and said, ” A place like this, on a cold, cloudy day like today, makes a guy think seriously about suicide.” Maybe that’s why people out on the Res, who have never lived anywhere else, are always offing themselves.
I laughed like a hyena and finally said, “Sheeeeit!”
We had the same reaction when we rolled through Paris, Texas. Saw two 2-story houses that were leaning, and would have fallen over, but they had fallen against each other and were actually touching.
Max
“Circus City”
Also, birthplace of
B.J. Thomas; musician,
And of Lane Frost; champion bull rider.
Est.1901 named for a French novelist and writer.
I have taken many deer from Choctaw county by all legal methods. When I was younger, it was a rite of passage into adulthood. The elders taught the younger men the ways of the woods. As I grew into my mid twenties, I found the hunt less and less about tradition and more difficult to express in those terms. The pool of interested youth began to shrink. I began to lose interest. Too much chest pounding and testosterone. I still hunt occasionally, and take time to impart my wisdom to those so inclined to listen.
Hunting isn’t about chest thumping and swagger, it’s about being alive and taking time to become one with your primitive origins.
I did see one of my favorite words in bold FM,
“Steward”…..
Great article …..
I meant it is where the headquarters of the Choctaw Nation is located. Completely forgot about the circuses.
Had no idea about BJ Thomas or Lane Frost. Hard to imagine, but everybody has to be from somewhere. BJ Thomas had one of the greatest singing voices in this benighted country. Still not bad. Lane Frost was a great guy, too.
Choctaw Indian Nation is headquartered in
Durant, OK. about sixty miles west of Hugo.
It too is part of the original Choctaw Nation. That said, the CIN is the major employer in Choctaw county and has offices there. They do good things for people of all colors and creed.
Dang!! Been close to 40 years since I have been to Durant or Hugo. All my cousins there told me the HQ was in Hugo. Wonder if the HQ was moved or if my cousins were setting me up to look like a dumbass 40 years later. Should’a been suspicious. One of them seemed honest and guileless, the Choctaw one, but the others made me wonder about them brewing moonshine out those little country lanes they lived on.
Conejo – your knowledge of the history of the Choctaw is severely lacking. The original Choctaw nation was Florida, Mississippi. They were forced on the trail of tears to Oklahoma. Choctaw are not native to Oklahoma. There is still a branch of Choctaw in MS.
Max – Durant is the HQ.
Llpoh,
I meant the part of Indian territory that was granted by the government after they were driven from their ancestral lands. I am aware of other existing enclaves as well. I never would have brought up the connection until the subject was breached by max1001 and his mention of Hugo, OK. I know the history well. Lived there, worked there, had to leave to get an education, came back, made a family and built a life there.
Conejo – alrighty then. Clarity is your friend!
LLPOH,
You are welcome to comment on anything I post. And you are certainly entitled to your opinions. I’m glad you’ve hunted. I’m glad you discovered it is not for you and in light of that you probably shouldn’t do it again. If an activity of any kind goes against your conscience it is unhealthy to continue it. That has been my experience.
Hi Francis,
Good article. I too used to hunt. As I aged it dwindled and finally evolved to this.
Different Drummer
Some years ago I visited A friend of mine Bob, in Arizona. He had been a drummer in a band I was in and he was a different sort of fellow. He always had a twist on every thing. Wide open country has always been a joy to both of us. I had still lived back east at the time. Since we are both gun enthusiasts the conversation eventually came around to varminting in his area.
He said he would take me out for a demonstration of jack rabbit hunting.
The drive out in his ratty old pick up was filled with western desert eye candy. You can drive for miles in this area and it never seems to take long because there is so much of interest to see.
We came to his favorite spot dismounted and pulled out our MINI-14s. He said now I want you to watch what I do before you get into actually shooting. As we talked a very large whitewall as he called them hopped out from be hind a bush probably curious about us.
My friend took aim and fired. The bullet struck about a foot behind that rabbit. That caused it to launch about 15 feet into the air – feet going a mile a minute – as though it were on the ground. The rabbit returned to earth and took off full blast to our left. Bob fired again and again the bullet landed about a foot in front of the rabbit which put on the emergency brakes and reversed course – still at the furious pace. Again Bob fired and again the bullet landed about a foot in front of the speeding rabbit. Again the rabbit reversed course and the dust flew great distances behind him. Bob fired again and this time the rabbit stopped. He sat panting heavily looking at us one ear drooping.
Bob said not do shoot at him, he’s out of gas. And right on cue another big guy came out to see what all the racket was about. Bob said to me “Don’t hit him, just get close”. For the next ten or fifteen seconds the scene replayed itself. We came across two more rabbits and played the game again. We loaded up and on the way back I asked him how he had come to that process. “Well, I kind of got out of killing stuff and as you saw it just was great fun. I bet the rabbits like it too”. I have killed deer, ducks, pheasants, rabbits and ground hogs. I came to varminting because I wanted to be able to go afield year round without a bunch of government red tape to deal with, and feel as though I was doing some good. I used to get calls from a dairy farmer frequently about ground hogs. I always selected the varmint that was not protected, and consequently had lots of really great adventures outdoors. I am not by any means a tree hugger and would be glad to help out any farmer having issues with coyotes or other critters. But in the end schooling is to me a lot better than killing them. Who knows, I might come across the same old boy again.
J Ashton, that’s a good story. Francis, I believe every male child should hunt. And kill. And butcher. I’ve always been an animal lover. But I decided to hunt for a while. I’ve always been an outdoor kind of guy, even as a kid. Hunting didn’t seem fair to me. I kind of instinctively understood how to find things, and how to get the jump on them. Too easy. I watched a lot of animals trot away down the barrel of my shotgun without shooting them. But I think it’s a rite of passage. Part of growing up. I used to love duck hunting. Every part of it, except shooting the ducks. I liked being out in the swamp, watching the sun rise. I liked watching the swamp wake up. It’s cold that time of year, I like the thermos of coffee. I like the steam rising from the water. I like wearing warm camouflage, and building the blind. And I like the success that comes when ducks are lured into range. I like springing up out of the blind and blasting away at them. And I like wasting shotgun shells and not hitting anything because I aim straight at them. And the guy that I used to hunt with the most was kind of the same way. It was fun. We didn’t kill shit. If I ever go to Africa, I would go as a hunter. It’s only because I want to walk around with a gun on my shoulder. I want to see animals bigger than me that could kill me. I don’t want to be in a jeep with a bunch of f****** people with Nikon’s. I scuba dive and spearfish, and I love fishing offshore. Plan to do a lot more of both in the coming years. But even there I’m going soft. I don’t like cleaning fish anymore. Haven’t speared anything in quite a while. Had plenty of opportunities. I just like observing things nowadays. If I had to feed myself tomorrow by hunting, I could do it no problem. That’s why God made steakhouses, so I don’t have to. Francis, your last article about the old dogs was a good one. I’ve watched some of the hardest dudes I know cry their eyes out when their dogs die, it’s a guy thing I guess. Like I said before, you’re getting good at this.
It would be interesting to meet you. So far you are the only one who has gotten the drift of my tale and then suddenly you write a parallel. None like us……
Thx Star,
If you ever decide to go to Africa contact me. There are sharks there that should be avoided. The last outfit I was with was amazing, they even invited my son and one of the other boys that were there to come and live and work with them. He thinks he might take them up on it and I wouldn’t hesitate to send him.
I will definitely do that, Francis. I’m not a bucket list kind of guy, I pretty much done most of what I want to do. But Africa still has some lure
Francis – I tried to let the above comment pass, but in the end could not. I know you were being hospitable, and thank you for that.
But the fact is I do not need your welcome. I am free to post anything on the TBP I so desire, unless the Admin banishes me, which has not happened in the many years I have been here. I chose not to post on some of your other hunting posts, but felt I would present a different view this time.
While I am at it, I also think that your “I hunt because I am a hunter” statement nonsensical. I rape because I am a rapist? I murder because I am a murder? I steal because I am a thief? It is absurd. I believe such a statement is indicative of an inability to reason, and in my opinion exhibits an unevolved belief system – that you do things because it is in your nature. I find it difficult to reconcile that statement against your many evidences of advanced thinking.
Man has the ability to overcome his nature. That is the true glory of man. Society generally expects man to be able to overcome his nature.
I understand what you are saying. Thanks for you input.
I now declare this thread to be closed. I have much to do today and won’t be able to respond to further comments or questions.
Thanks to all for participating with such lively terrific comments. If you do need to make more comments, please do so in Stucky’s god thread.
Happy New Year.
PS; Again, this thread is now closed.
Stucky, you troll, quit trying to squash my comment count. You already got me beat.
It does appear that you have been Doppleganged.
But, why assume it was me? Do you have proof? Evidence? Do not appeal to Admin to check the IP address. That’s cheating.
Nevertheless, in a show of good faith and camaraderie, I henceforth issue a proclamation that this thread is still OPEN!!”
I hope this proclamation assures continued peace between me and thee.
Let there be peace between the great tribe of the Austrian New Jersyites and the humble but observant tribe of the Northern Fox. Let us speak of this matter no more.
Shalom.
“Let there be peace between the great tribe of the Austrian New Jersyites and the humble but observant tribe of the Northern Fox. Let us speak of this matter no more. Shalom.”
Lol LMFAO
You’re a great guy, really. I pray when all the dust is settled, that peace pipe is smokem’ with another great warrior, Chief Loopy. Two alphas going at it is always a good read.
Hoka Hey!
I have not ” gone after him”. Imrespect Francis a lot. Just not in this, and I decided not to keep my opinions to myself.
If he can post this, where even on a pro gun site like TBP general opinion is against him 2:1, then he must have known he was going to take some flak, and has broad enough shoulders to take it.
“But the fact is I do not need your welcome.”
That was my point. Maybe it was a poor choice of words on my behalf?
FWIW I find your posts challenging and I am happy to engage you as you like to push people, particularly the regulars like me, to think. I’m just not overly interested in tossing dung so I try to keep it cordial. Which is what I was trying to do.
That you and I will not agree on this (although I will say I read most of what you post on TBP and agree with you more often than not) is not important to me and not worth fighting over. I knew what your response would be to this piece before I even posted it. We have both been writing here long enough to understand how the other views the world.
However, I will address one thing.
I find your comparison to rape specious at best. Rape is a crime for obvious reasons which both of us understand, hunting and turning animals into meat for human consumption, be it for my own or for others use is not. It is no more so than when HSF slaughters a pig for his or a neighbor’s use. The animal is different and perhaps the motivation is to some degree but the process, with the exception of the challenge involved, is the same. ‘Grow, slaughter, consume’ at its most elementary level. And it is done with an eye to the future in both instances and for the same reasons.
A better comparison would be sex with my wife. I have reproduced and my offspring are getting close to the age where they will do so soon as well (but not too soon I hope). I no longer need to harass the Mrs. It serves no rational, biological purpose other than the satisfaction of my libido. Yet I do. Not simply because I love her (which I do very much) but because it is my nature and I want to. And while I believe our nature is something we should control, we should not be wasteful or abusive, I also believe it is a part of who we are and when focused and controlled (for a variety of reasons) is something that is beneficial to both the individual and the civilization in which we live. Game, has benefited from the stewardship that hunters throughout history provide for the reasons I laid out above. I benefit because of the reasons that have been laid out by many who have posted here and for the reasons I listed in my essay.
Which is the reason I didn’t post a lot of responses here to the objections that were made, including by you. I knew that through general discussion between the posters that most things would get said and covered so I didn’t need to. I also knew there would be logical fallacies and errors on both sides and the posters from both view-points would point them out. That’s how this place works. Stucky said a lot of things in this thread that were correct because a lot of hunters fail to distinguish the difference between needs and wants.
In fact, this article was not really about hunting. It was simply the vehicle I used for delineating the difference between ‘need and want’ and how we should sort out what is and is not acceptable behavior with regard to ‘want’ in a civilization that respects the individual. It was, for all intents and purposes, an exercise in libertarian philosophy. Uncola got it right away, and so did Rins. They are smart chaps and saw through what I was doing fairly quickly.
With regards to the vehicle I used to lay out my argument I respect your position on the matter. But I highly doubt one of us will ever sway the other with regards to their point of view.
‘I hunt because I am hunter’ isn’t an explanation it is a statement of position.
Respectfully,
Francis
Thanks Francis. The point I was making, as I know you understand, is that man can overcome his nature. It is what makes us special.
I think Stuck has you beat. Nothing beats a religion type article. Bad luck coming up against that. But this thread has done great.
Stuck did it on purpose, I am sure. He is a prick that way. He has a competitive streak as wide as he is tall.
Beat schmeat.
We WILL get this to the Holy Grail of 200 — where everybody is a winner!
WTF? This thread is still alive?? Do I have to shoot the damn thing or what???
Chop this one up & 200’s rearview mirror.
The perniciousness of easy credit – in the realm of currency, interest rates – is a granted around here. Malinvestment, right?
But easy credit is not constrained to the monetary domain. Nor is the perniciousness of ‘the easy way.’
False or incorrect premises lead to false\incorrect conclusions. And confounding false positives serve as often as not (more often I’d say) as modelers glue. (Did you build styrene model cars, etc, as a kid? I did. & no, I didn’t huff the stuff.)
Or, for another good image, false positives are like what happens, all too often, when someone jumps in to save the falsely positive anchor, who is going under for the 3rd time, and the anchor cements himself to the would-be savior, drowning them both.
Or, the parable of the scorpion & the frog.
The idea of overcoming one’s nature is one of those easy credit sorts of things that leads to false conclusions. Your nature, my nature, each person’s nature is bounded. As is human nature in toto. Not unbounded. No getting outside it, no transcending it. Whatever you’ve done, accomplished, was not the result of you going beyond yourself; that is an impossibility (& not just logically, but physically).
Humanimal is “special” is easy credit. I am “special” – basis whatever hands dealt\played — is even easier credit.
“If there is anything unique about the human animal it is that it has the ability to grow knowledge at an accelerating rate while being chronically incapable of learning from experience. Science & technology are cumulative, whereas ethics & politics deal with recurring dilemmas. Whatever they are called, torture & slavery are universal evils; but these evils cannot be consigned to the past like redundant theories in science. They return under different names: torture as enhanced interrogation techniques, slavery as human trafficking. Any reduction in universal evils is an advance in civilization. But, unlike scientific knowledge, the restraints of civilized life cannot be stored on a computer disc. They are habits of behavior, which once broken are hard to mend. Civilization is natural for humans, but so is barbarism.
The evidence of science & history is that humans are only ever partly & intermittently rational, but for modern humanists the solution is simple: human beings must in future be reasonable. These enthusiasts for reason have not noticed that the idea that humans may one day be more rational requires a greater leap of faith than anything in religion. Since it requires a miraculous breach in the order of things, the idea that Jesus returned from the dead is not as contrary to reason as the notion that human beings will in future be different from how they have always been.
In the most general terms, humanism is the idea that the human animal is the site of some kind of unique value in the world. The philosophers of ancient Greece believed that humans were special in having a capacity for reason lacking in other animals, & some of these philosophers – notably Socrates, at least as he is described by Plato – believed that through the use of reason humans could access a spiritual realm. A related aspect of humanism is the idea that the human mind reflects the order of the cosmos. The spiritual realm in which Socrates may have believed was composed of timeless forms – in other words metaphysical projections of human concepts. A third aspect of humanism is the idea that history is a story of human advance, with rationality increasing over time. This is a distinctively modern view, nowhere found among the wiser thinkers of the ancient world.
Not everyone who is described as a humanist has accepted these ideas. The 16th century essayist Michel de Montaigne has been seen as a humanist because he turned to classical learning & a life of self-cultivation. But Montaigne mocked the belief that humans are superior to other animals, rejected the notion that the human mind mirrors the world & ridiculed the idea that it is reason that enables humans to live well. There is no trace in him of the belief in progress that would later shape modern humanism. As a good sceptic, Montaigne left open the window to faith. But there is nothing in his writings of the mystical ideas that underpin assertions of human uniqueness in Socrates & Plato.
Humanists today , who claim to take a wholly secular view of things, scoff at mysticism & religion. But the unique status of humans is hard to defend, & even to understand, when it is cut off from any idea of transcendence. In a strictly naturalistic view – one in which the world is taken on its own terms, without reference to a creator or any spiritual realm – there is no hierarchy of value with humans at the top. There are simply mulitifarious animals, each with their own needs. Human uniqueness is a myth inherited from religion, which humanists have recycled into science.
The hostility of humanists to myth is telling, since if anything is peculiarly human it is myth-making. Every human culture is animated by myth, in some degree, while no other animal displays anything similar. Humanists are also ruled by myths, tho the ones by which they are possessed have none of the beauty or the wisdom of those that they scorn. The myth that human beings can use their minds to lift themselves out of the natural world, which in Socrates & Plato was part of a mystical philosophy, has been renewed in a garbled version of the language of evolution.
There is little in the current fad for evolutionary theories of society that cannot be found, sometimes more clearly expressed, in the writings of Herbert Spencer, the Victorian prophet of what would later be called Social Darwinism. Believing the human history was itself a kind of evolutionary process, Spencer asserted that the end-point of the process was laissez-faire capitalism. His disciples Sidney & Beatrice Webb, early members of the Fabian Society & admirers of the Soviet Union, believed it culminated in communism. Aiming to be more judicious, a later generation of theorists has nominated ‘democratic capitalism’ as the terminus. As might have been foreseen, none of these consummations has come to pass.
The most important feature of the process of natural selection is that it is a process of drift. Evolution has no endpoint or direction, so if the development of society is an evolutionary process it is one that is going nowhere. The destinations that successive generations of theorists have assigned to evolution have no basis in science. Invariably, they are the prevailing idea of progress recycled in Darwinian terms.
As refined by later scientists, Darwin’s theory posits the selection of random genetic mutations. In contrast, no one has come up with a unit of selection or a mechanism through which evolution operates in society. On an evolutionary view the human mind has no built-in bias to truth or rationality & will continue to develop according to the imperative of survival. Theories of human rationality increasing through social evolution are as groundless today as they were when Spencer used them to promote laissez-faire capitalism & the Webbs communism. Reviving long-exploded errors, 21st century believers in progress unwittingly demonstrate the unreality of progress in the history of ideas.
For humanists, denying that humanity can live without myths can only be a type of pessimism. They take for granted that if human beings came to be more like the rational figments they have in mind, the result would be improvement. Leave aside the assumption – itself very questionable – that a rational life must be one without myths. Rational or not, life without myths is like life without art or sex – insipid & inhuman. The actuality, with all its horrors, is preferable. Luckily a choice need not be made, since the life of reason that humanists anticipate is only a fantasy.
If there is a choice, it is between myths. In comparison with the Genesis myth, the modern myth in which humanity is marching to a better future is mere superstition. As the Genesis story teaches, knowledge cannot save us from ourselves. If we know more than before, it means only that we have greater scope to enact our fantasies. But – as the Genesis myth also teaches – there is no way we can rid ourselves of what we know. If we try to regain a state of innocence, the results can only be a worse madness. The message of Genesis is that in the most vital areas of human life there can be no progress, only an unending struggle with our own nature.
When contemporary humanists invoke the idea of progress they are mixing together two different myths: a Socratic myth of reason & a Christian myth of salvation. If the resulting body of ideas is incoherent, that is the source of its appeal. Humanists believe that humanity improves along with the growth of knowledge, but the belief that the increase of knowledge goes with advances in civilization is an act of faith. They see the realization of human potential as the goal of history, when rational inquiry shows history to have no goal. They exalt nature, while insisting that humankind – an accident of nature – can overcome the natural limits that shape the lives of other animals. Plainly absurd, this nonsense gives meaning to the lives of people who believe they have left all myths behind.
To expect humanists to give up their myths would be unreasonable. Like cheap music, the myth of progress lifts the spirits as it numbs the brain. The fact that rational humanity shows no sign of ever arriving only makes humanists cling more fervently to the conviction that humankind will someday be redeemed from unreason. Like believers in flying saucers, they interpret the non-event as confirming their faith.
Science & the idea of progress may seem joined together, but the end-result of progress in science is to show the impossibility of progress in civilization. Science is a solvent of illusion, & among the illusions it dissolves are those of humanism. Human knowledge increases, while human irrationality stays the same. Scientific inquiry may be an embodiment of reason, but what such inquiry demonstrates is that humans are not rational animals. The fact that humanists refuse to accept the demonstration only confirms its truth.
Atheism & humanism may also seem to be conjoined when in fact they are at odds. Among contemporary atheists, disbelief in progress is a type of blasphemy. Pointing to the flaws of the human animal has become an act of sacrilege. The decline of religion has only stiffened the hold of faith on the mind. Unbelief today should begin by questioning not religion but secular faith. A type of atheism that refused to revere humanity would be a genuine advance. Freud’s thought exemplifies atheism of this kind; but Freud has been rejected precisely because he refused to flatter the human animal. It is not surprising that atheism remains a humanist cult. To suppose that the myth of progress could be shaken off would be to ascribe to modern humanity a capacity for improvement even greater than that which it ascribes to itself.
Modern myths are myths of salvation stated in secular terms. What both kinds of myths have in common is that they answer to a need for meaning that cannot be denied. In order to survive, humans have invented science. Pursued consistently, scientific inquiry acts to undermine myth. But life without myth is impossible, so science has become a channel for myths – chef among them, a myth of salvation through science. When truth is at odds with meaning, it is meaning that wins. Why this should be so is a delicate question. Why is meaning so important? Why do humans need a reason to live? Is it because they could not endure life if they did not believe it contained hidden significance? Or does the demand for meaning come from attaching too much sense to language – from thinking that or lives are books we have not yet learnt to read?” ~ John Gray, “The Silence of Animals”
Great post. Maybe I won’t put a bullet in this thread just yet.
llpoh- you are wrong. Hunting is not simply an act, the killing of the hunted. It is the fulfillment of human’s mastery of their environment. Read, if you have not already done so, “Meditations on Hunting” by Jose Ortega y Gasset. In that series of essays he makes some important observations – far too many to discuss in this limited space. But a few comments will, I hope, put the process of hunting into understandable context. I say “process” because hunting is just that, a process, not simply the act of killing.
But on the the author’s comments:
“Hunting is what an animal does to take possession, dead or alive, of some other being that belong to a species basically inferior to its own, Vice versa, if there is to be a hunt the superiority of the hunter over the prey cannot be absolute. It is not essential to the hunt that it be successful.”
Furthermore, “every hunter is uneasy in the depths of his conscience when faced with the death he is about to inflict on the enchanting animal…”
Even in today’s modern world, if you hunt in Germany, you will have heard the ‘Weiman’s Heil’ – the salute to the spirit of the dead prey, and the placing of the final offering of greens in the animal’s mouth.
Finally, “The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than the sign of reality for the whole hunting process. To sum up, one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted.”
Hunting is an integral part of the human heritage and we should be proud of the fact that we recognize the vast difference between true hunting and mere killing.
In my case, I was 7 years old when I accompanied my father on a squirrel hunt on our farm, and was accorded the privilege of carrying home the game taken. I have been a hunter ever since, though now, at 78, my big game hunting days are pretty much over. Nevertheless, I look back with considerable pride at the challenges I had to overcome in the process in order to be successful, even if many of those hunts brought me home empty handed, often because I had been successful in putting the intended game clearly in range of my rifle, but decided to not squeeze the trigger through its inevitable cycle.
Read the book:
Meditations on Hunting, Jose Ortega y Gasset
Charles Schribner’s Sons
Macmillan Publishing Co, NY
sio – you were 7 and hunting squirrels? Wow. I was on bear hunts at that age. Please spare me the bullshit. I understand the stuff you are saying. Been there, done that, and a couple of times was at severe risk in the doing – bear in 6′ undergrowth a few yards away is no joke. I grew up around a guy named Beardog. He hunted wild boar in the undergrowth with an Arkansas toothpick.
My point is very simple – killing for fun is not something I will agree with, now or in the future. That man was a killer when it meant survival does not mean an evolution should not occur when survival is no longer the driving force. Enlightenment is something humans are capable of. Killing for fun is unenlightened.
I’ve just started Kirkpatrick Sale’s book, “After Eden”, which describes the transition about 70,000 years ago from man being *Among* the Animals, to man *Dominating* them.. the period of the development of spears, arrowpoints and collaborative hunting methods to take down big game: the transition from drinking with the beasts at the waterhole, and scavenging for small prey like them.. to completely dominating the landscape and seeing everything as “belonging” to humans, which attitude has stuck with us.
With all due respect, is it time for the people who consider themselves the first inhabitants of The Americas to stop calling themselves “Indians”. Clearly no relation. Never seen one of you with a red dot on your forehead, never seen you running a cheap motel, nor have I seen any of you shitting in the streets in urban areas.
I have been informed that the recorded names and even currently used names for the tribes encountered in North America by the European settlers are not the correct names. For instance, the people we call the Winnebago, call themselves the Ho-Chunk. I was mildly disappointed to discover they had no relationship with the RV manufacturer. I was hoping to get an introduction to an influential member of the Airstream Tribe. Really like their travel trailers, but can’t afford anything new, or near new, unless I get an smoking deal.
Recent historical revisionists have informed me that the settlers asked each tribe they met, ” What is the name of the tribe on the other side of the hill. The tribe queried would supply the word in their language that meant, The Psychos Over There. The tribe on the other side of the hill actually called themselves a name that means, The People or The Humans.
I have also been recently informed by several sources that you good folks are actually descended from Siberians who crossed over to Alaska when the low sea levels exposed a land bridge. So, if you ever recover your desire to hunt, you might be able to gain access to the hunting and fishing grounds of the Siberian tribe to whom you are related.
Just cruise up to Moscow, give a sample of your DNA to the Russian Academy of Science, tour the great historical churches of Moscow while you wait to learn which tribe should claim you as a member, then roll on out to Siberia to present you credentials to your new tribal chairman. He will no doubt be understanding when you tell him, “Hey, I know my ancestors split the blanket with your ancestors 10,000 years ago over some trivial misunderstanding, but I have returned to heal old wounds and reestablish our brotherhood.” Let slip the info about you being a rich business owner. That will really smooth the process.
The only real problem I see is the possibility of some suspicious people seeing your trip to Moscow as more Russian collusion.
Jimminy – when I, or any other Indian, wants your idiotic opinion about what to refer to myself/ourselves as, I will ask you. With all due respect, it is time for you to shut the fuck up.
Sorry about getting you all upset and angry. It has always bothered me that my fellow invaders have tried to control the definition of who the native tribes are. It is what invaders have always done throughout history to justify to themselves the invasion and taking from people who were already there.
After the coming collapse and purge of 90% of the population, you should be able to retake the land in Oklahoma you were forced to accept in lieu of the lands you had in Mississippi. Hope you can keep out the migrants you don’t want this time.
Apologies to Francis for commenting again after you said to stop, but Stucky said the thread was open again.
LOL. It’s open indefinitely. In fact, the more you guys argue the closer I stay to Stucky’s thread so keep it up.
Re: “It is very simple – to destroy a feeling creature simply because it gives you pleasure to do so is a great wrong. Nothing you can say can make that right. And I believe you know it is wrong. But what the hell – you like it. That makes it all ok, right? Whatever. Humans really need to evolve past this crap.”
But of course, the implication that those who do not hunt are higher on the evolutionary scale than those that do! What would any discussion of hunting be without at least one remark by some holier-than-thou moralist?
Your understanding of nature and of man’s place in it is, to be charitable, in need of remedial work. You exist because your ancestral forbearers knew how to hunt. Agriculture and the domestication of livestock are relatively recent events in the timeline of human development. Prior to those things, humans were hunter-gatherers who, if they failed to bag any game, did not eat – or at least did not eat as well as they might have otherwise. Some primordial/aboriginal peoples such as the Inuit (Eskimos) depended almost entirely upon animal protein and fat for survival, as they did not live in environments which supported year-round agriculture – or any agriculture at all.
Nature, it has been said, is “red in tooth and claw.” This observation, made in a less-politically-correct and more-sensible age, is perhaps a bit graphic for all of the special snowflakes out there, but it remains absolutely correct, never-the-less. The struggle for survival is going on all around us; open your eyes.
You may believe that human beings have left the jungle and have evolved onto a higher plane. That’s nonsense…. we’ve merely exchanged one kind of jungle for another, the kind with foliage for the kind constructed of concrete and steel. Human beings still have to kill to eat; it is just done at many layers of remove so that relatively few people actually have to have blood on their hands to do so. Frankly, an ethical and clean kill in the field at the hands of a hunter is probably more merciful to a white-tail deer than the slaughter house or dying as a result of starvation, old age, being hit by a car or in some predator’s jaws. By the way: Plants are living things; even if you are vegetarian, you are still killing a living thing when you consume your daily meals.
You speak of “evolving past” hunting. Perhaps you ought to reflect on that remark for a moment and give thanks that we have not – for some of the very same instincts which compel us to hunt also allow us to protect our families, homes, communities and nations from harm at the hands of those who would inflict violence upon us. Human beings, you see, are predators – whether you like it or not. While it may comfort and give you a feeling of moral goodness not to kill, your refusal to do so does not eliminate its need – it only transfers the responsibility to someone else.
There is a simple thought experiment one can perform that demonstrates the validity of my point. Imagine for a moment that you are stranded, alone and utterly unarmed, in the wilderness. In civilized life, you may consider a bear cub or a litter of wolf pups cute, but don’t think for a second that – if you were on the menu, so to speak – that they wouldn’t dine upon you with gusto. Like I said, nature – red in tooth and claw.
Remember hapless, poor Timothy Treadwell – the so-called “bear whisperer” – and his ill-fated girl friend? Treadwell was the guy who was sure that he had bears figured out and that he could coexist with them, side by side, without any problem. After all, hadn’t he captured amazing film footage of he and the bears having fun together? Well, poor Tim and his girl went into the wilderness one too many times; their remains were later found – what the bears hadn’t eaten – as well as footage of their deaths, recorded by their still-running cameras.
Treadwell and his companion died because they lost sight of the reality of what nature is – if they ever knew it in the first place. Nature is cruel and utterly indifferent to our thoughts and feelings; that does not mean that it is any less beautiful, wondrous and amazing – it simply means that the cycle of life and death is inherent in nature, and that people who forget that fact may suffer an unfortunate fate. Even if they escape such a grisly end as that suffered by Treadwell, they will have failed to understand nature as it really is – and not how some dreamer wishes it to be.
Although humans are – for the most part – free of having to hunt to eat, it is still a good thing that the old ways persist and that men still have the urge to go forth into the wilderness and hunt, just as their ancestors did. Something essential and elemental will die in humans if they lose touch with the primordial instincts of the hunter. They will also find themselves emasculated and unable or unwilling to protect themselves, their families, their homes or their societies.
The hunter understands that death is just as much a part of the natural world as life. Although you may not hunt, I hope you realize that the hunter teaches us something vitally important about our existence and the nature of our world.
If I am ever able to express myself in writing as well as you do, I will have lived my greatest current dream.
“Plants are living things; even if you are vegetarian, you are still killing a living thing when you consume your daily meals.”
———
Plants are not sentient. Big difference.
“Sentient ultimately comes from the Latin verb sentire, which means “to feel” and is related to the noun sensus, meaning “feeling” or “sense.”
I have never had any desire to hunt in Africa, but very much enjoy hunting and the bounty I receive from “harvesting” an animal. And am very fortunate to live in the great state of Montana where the opportunities are many for hunting and fishing. I think you have expressed very well the reasons, not excuses, for hunting.
Blessings:-}
I cannot disagree with you, I can only quibble. We do need to hunt. It is who we are and what we are. By hunting and harvesting a wild animal to feed the family, we assert that we are capable; that we are not weak and dependent on others. I could say it is part of becoming a man and being a man, but I see that women hunt and kill for the same reasons. I saw that you said this already, much more elegantly than I did, but that truth must be repeated over and over.
I fell and buck trees for the same reason. Makes me feel capable, even at my advanced age. If I had a wood stove, I could heat the house and a greenhouse with wood. Gotta get a power woodsplitter. Swinging a mallet for hours yesterday in freezing temperatures to split stubborn Ash played havoc. Ever notice that when you do something stupid, you don’t feel the pain until you try to crawl out of bed the next morning?
If we quit telling the truth, the snowflakes and Marxists will own the market of ideas with their lies. I would be willing to guess that most snowflakes (Sierra Club, anyone) do not know that most of the game species in North America have experienced a resurgence in numbers and strength, due only to the efforts of hunter organizations.
We do need to eat meat. Meat contains carnetine, which is essential to good health. Can’t get it anywhere else. Dr. Mercola online is a good source for information. Turn off the sound and just read the words. Nice guy, but his voice is really irritating and the eye bugging freaks me.
When we go out for that essential meat that wasn’t bought at a grocery store, I personally believe that we should hunt here, at home. Deer and Elk herds have grown beyond the carrying capacity of the local area because wild predators are mostly gone. It is our obligation to take up the slack.
I do realize that some of the funds extracted from Great White Hunters by African Governments are essential to supporting game reserves. I also realize that giving the corpses of dead trophies discourages poaching. I just wish people would quit hunting elephants. I like elephants.
“We do need to hunt. It is who we are and what we are.”
You’re speaking for yourself. I do not need to hunt. It is not what I am.
Although I once hunted down a racoon with a Smith and Wesson 2×4 … and I still have nightmares about it.
I also think you’re wrong about needing to eat meat. If God created humans we were created with the intent to eat of the fruit of the garden, not its blood. Other than that, millions of people worldwide don’t eat meat.
I think it was Max1001 who said raccoons are vermin and carry infectious diseases. You did right to attempt to eradicate the pests like you would a rabid dog. The moran that called the cops on you had no idea the favor you did them.
Vegans tend to be B12 deficient – unless they take supplements and even then there are different types, with debate about their relative efficacy. Clams are super-high in B12, so someone who abstains from meat but eats clams could get sufficient B 12. B12 is necessary for neuro-functioning and B12 deficiency has been correlated to issues like schizophrenia. Schizophrenic symptoms have, in some cases, been shown to be alleviated with B12 injections. Veganism brings risks to those with certain mental illnesses.
Good luck getting all the various vitamins and amino acids from the short growing seasons and lack of salty seashore of the upper Midwest.
Be pale as a Lake Trout’s underbelly with dark raccoon rings without meat up here.
Those millions of people all over the world that don’t eat meat are usually poor and from third world countries. They are usually extremely unhealthy and get sick easily. Vegetarianism is the worst diet there is. People need meat and animal byproducts, such as dairy and eggs. We do have rich people that go vegetarian, like Paul McCartney, but I guarantee McCartney takes liver capsules to supplement his diet. Though the MSM would say otherwise, there are studies that show humans are not able to get Vitamin B-12 from plants, which is one reason animal products are essential. Although there was small movement towards vegetarianism in the mid 1800s that was an early counter-culture-type thing, vegetarianism became “a thing” during World War I when the government and their minions were trying to send as much meat as possible to the soldiers and they were trying to convince people that animal products weren’t all that essential. Then why did the soldiers need it so much?
Edit: I didn’t see Iska’s comment on B-12 before I wrote mine.
Whenever someone says they’re vegetarian I say, “that’s nice. Hitler was a vegetarian.”
“Vegetarianism is the worst diet there is.”
It may not be the best eating plan. But, the worst? That’s poppycock.
You’re a Christian. Before they sinned, was Gods plan for them to eat meat?
That was before Noah’s flood. It’s believed the earth’s atmosphere was different then and meat was not required. After the flood, the Lord allowed them to basically eat anything to survive until the plants and animals thrived again. It was after disease began entering the picture when God gave them dietary laws, not allowing the eating of scavengers, etc. There is no law today for Christians not to eat meat or animal products.
So Stucky, you are a vegetarian then? Or are you one of those yellow bellied libtards that can only buy meat at the grocery store because they can’t stand the sight of blood?
The human body needs 20 amino acids, 8 – 10 are essential and not made by the human body (depending on your genetics). Four of which, lysine, tryptophan, methionine, and phenylalanine, are most readily and easily obtained from red meat and some fish if you live in the right parts of the world. Not to mention a damn good supply of protein.
The millions of people in the world that don’t eat meat is because they are religious fanatics or just plain too poor.
Living in a liberal, mid-western college community I have known a number of vegetarians for 40+ years – they always look pasty and have some very strange medical problems.
No Thank You!
No, I love meat.
My sister and her husband have been vegan for 20+ years. No medical problems. Yes, she’s a libtard.
Worked with a lot of dothead vegitarians. They seemed healthy to me. But, I’m no doctor.
I don’t believe that vegetarians are less healthy than meat eaters.
This was 100! I want some free Wildebeest tongue! (I’m not talking about Hillary!)
NEVER met a vegan in the combat arms of the military.
But have met some “militant” vegans that looked like the KKK’s sheets.
And your brother-in-law wears a pussy hat on command no doubt.
Not sure why you’re being so aggressive. But, whatever floats your boat.
They get along just fine without pussy hats.
Not being aggressive but I have never met a male of the species that didn’t eat meat that I considered a Man. Just pussy whipped lap dogs.
“This was 100! I want some free Wildebeest tongue!”
And I want my Satanic Bible, fucker. You promised.
Stucky, are your sister and her husband true vegans or lacto-vegetarians? You don’t actually have to have meat if you’re eating dairy and eggs. If they are strict vegans, they probably lack Vitamins B-12, D and A. A lack of Vitamins D and A can lead to loss of vision and hearing, and the lack of bone strength. Are they very athletic? I’ve read of athletes who went strict vegan and ended up with fragile bones (upon diagnosis) and whose bones broke easily. There are other health issues as well. You may want to research that.
If the Creator didn’t want us eating animals he shouldn’t have made them out of food, and pray-tell why did he give us canine teeth. Not needed for eating vegetables.
But to each his own.
JR
Although I could do without, I want meat when I eat. I want. Everyone wants. We all want because we live, and merely surviving is a much different kind of life.
Conservation, harvesting, managing wildlife populations, recreation, communing with nature, harmonizing with the seasons, exercise, comradery, and putting food on the table. Described this way, hunting makes more sense than golf.
I get it. From where I sit, there is no need to explain. But I am glad you did. Enjoyed this Francis. Thanks
I’ve not known any – only known the opposite – but surely there are healthy vegetarians. One diet wont doit. Everbody’s different.
I’m a hunter. If you eat meat, by definition you are one too: living vicariously through others.
Division of labor, specialization, is vicariousness? The pins & pencils made by one person are superior to the ones made by process connected specialists?
Competition, efficiency, & freeing up time to do what you like, as opposed, need, to do. Interdependence, trading, markets.
I eat potatoes. Does that make me a farmer?
Yes; but just a farmer who does not know what filthy chemical were used to grow the perfect potato. You are also dependent on people far away. I want to be independent; able to feed myself and anyone else living with me. Be really important when the collapse comes.
A man as intelligent as you could grow enough groceries in containers in an apartment, or in a small garden to feed you and your wife. The feeling of self sufficiency cannot be overstated. With Acquaponics, you can grow enough fish to feed your family. Still gotta get red meat somewhere.
If I grow cabbage, does that make me a kraut?
If I like cats, does that mean I like pussy?
I’m a scavenger. I only eat shit that is already dead.
You folks understand he is hunting for pleasure, not food, right? You do not go after lions and such for food. It is done for the joy of killing.
Well, some people need to keep the stalking and shooting skills up.
There’s a lot of killing to be done in the near future, and it won’t get done by a bunch of soyboys and expats.
I see your point, Llpoh. But, if no laws are broken, it’s hard to tell another dude what to do in his spare time.
Where I live, we mainly hunt deer, fowl, and some migratory game birds in season; for all of the reasons Francis has delineated above.
The deer breed like rabbits (or mice) and, right now, when the geese take off from behind my homestead you can hear the acoustic violence at a surprising volume through my roof and walls. It’s pretty wild.
Happy New Year to you down under, or Austria, or wherever you may be
I wonder why lions are not eaten. They are not scavengers. They make fresh kills, eat the offal, such as the heart and liver, the healthiest part of the animal, and then leave the remains for the hyenas and other scavengers. Does lion meat not taste good?
I don’t know. I don’t hunt lions and it doesn’t interest me. Hunting predators, in general, doesn’t although in the past I’d happily go out and trim any (usually coyotes, wolves and black bears) that were pests for local farms or ranches if I was asked. Living where we do now it is less of an issue. The farms are smaller and most land-owners take care of their own predator problems here.
I’ve eaten cougar (mountain lion) and it is pretty much the same as pork. Never shot one and probably never will. But to each their own.
I believe all non-scavenger animals could be eaten but are not due to cultural traditions. I don’t think starving people would reject it. (Except in India where people are starving and cows are everywhere because they’re scared.)
“… and cows are everywhere because they’re scared.”
Huh! Learn something new every day here.
Exactly what are these cows afraid of?
Edit: Sacred. 🙂
You would be scared too if you were a walking hamburger in the midst of about one billion really hungry Indians.
Yeah, Hindoos have some religious objection to eating cows, but if only 1% had seen a McDonald’s commercial with fat, happy dindus munching down Big Macs with the special sauce, maybe that 1% might start having heretical thoughts, and 1% of one billion is 10 million.
If ten million Indians are chasing you with knives and forks in their hands, your only hope is to make a getaway when they stop to shit in the street. Better hope that it is a big shit, so that you have more time to put some distance between you and them.
Probably tastes like Spotted Owl, and most definitely better than the National Scavenger, the Bald Eagle.
Spotted Owl is nice in a sweet Thai chili sauce.
People don’t generally eat animals that eat animals – the exception being fish. A duck-hunting buddy of mine once explained that the kind of ducks that people eat are the ducks that only eat vegetation. Ducks that eat fish aren’t eaten by humans. Too greasy, he told me.
Oddly enough, they tend to taste like a combination of duck and fish.
That makes sense. Thanks.
Maslow’s hierarchy of pleads (mostly).
But there are cashpoor crackers (they call themselves that, mostly) I’ve known, amongst others, mostly down south, who hunt for groceries, not on safaris. That’s a caloric need, not a plead.
I don’t hunt, fish anymore. Or raise crops, hogs, quail & pheasant. Or change oil in the vehicles. Etc. Don’t need to. If that changes, the woods are still there, the tools are still there, I’ll roll with it.
Smart boy. Starting to communicate better, too.
My brother was a pumper on oil leases in South Texas. When the price of oil collapsed in the early 80’s, he would kill one deer a month to feed his family of six. Would have starved otherwise. Didn’t care about trophies, just wanted meat to feed his family. I might compare them to the natives in Wubba-Wubba land who were glad to butcher and eat the giraffe Mr. Francis killed. Deer in South Texas are as numerous as flies in summer.
I don’t have a problem with trophy hunters; I just don’t understand them. The only reason I would want the antlers would be for knife handles, or if I could sell them to Chinese people. Might need to ask some Chinese what the antler fascination is all about. Maybe I should grind the antlers and mix the powder into my coffee.
Don’t be fooled by i forget’s writing style. It takes a little getting used to but smart he/she is imo.
Mr/Miss Forgot is clearly intelligent, but usually writes in a complex aligorical style of poetry. Difficult to grasp the cognitive leaps. Then, the question arises, is there more than one level to this. Maybe I need the mental challenge.
Deer antler is used in natural medicine in Asia and the Middle East.
Antler sheds make great dog chew toys.
A simple internet search will show many articles re hunters and conservation. The benefits of injecting money into Africa for instance, are doubtful. Where does the money go? Who benefits?
One good question is that if rich white hunters are allowed to pay to kill lions, for instance, why should there be reserves set up to protect lions?
What kind of statement is being made when rich whites are allowed to pay to kill heavily endangered species, like the rhino?
It is insane.
I have seen ample evidence that most of the money injected in Africa is siphoned off by dictators and their small group of followers. Food aid and other feel good DWL (deluded white liberals) projects just increase the numbers of Africans who cannot feed themselves. Bigger famine next time. Try explaining that to a SJW or DWL.
Most of the apex predators that the hunters kill are old animals past their prime, and no longer a breeding member of a pride. The females of the pride do most of the hunting, and the big male tags along to share the bounty. He is just a breeder, a semen donator, that’s all.
One a younger lion defeats him and assumes mastery of the pride, the old lion with the big mane is essentially useless to the species. His teeth are usually worn down to a nub, so his teeth cannot penetrate the hide of prey to kill them. Plus, not eating regularly leaves him too weak to chase and capture speedy prey.
The only value the old Lion has is the hunting fee the Lion Preserve gets from the Great White Hunter. I would like to believe that most of that fee stays with the preserve. The other fees the GWH pays goes for fancy new duds for Mugabe and Grace, or whoever has replaced them.
It’s going to be a cold night in South Florida. At least down to 65F. Am presently crankin’ up a big pot of venison chili. We hunt deer because we like venison and we like to hunt. Period end. I expect no approval or permission to harvest said game. That being said, I would never shoot an elephant, giraffe, bison, gazelle, &tc. That’s just me. Anyway, Happy New Year to all TBPers including the Elmer Fudds!
“But man, and this applies to almost every culture from one end of the globe to the other, hasn’t ‘needed’ to hunt since he crawled out of the cave and discovered agriculture. For that matter, I consider the argument (from need) in favor of consuming meat equally as shaky given that man can survive quite well on a diet of nuts, fruit, vegetables, and grains.”
Completely wrong. Eight thousand years ago, when man (i.e. the peasants, not the aristocracy) adopted agriculture and began eating an almost entirely vegetarian and mostly grain diet, he immediately lost 6 inches of height and more than 5 years of longevity. His bones also became more brittle, because only red meat increases bone density. The problems with vegetarianism have only gotten worse since then, because the nutritional content of food has steadily declined due to the depletion of topsoil nutrients. The Scientific American had an article a few years ago on this subject, and noted, inter alia, that the nutritional content of oranges had decreased 80% since 1920…..Of course, the fact that the Elites have always prized hunting and consumed a lot of meat (and have been bigger, stronger and healthier as a result) should make this obvious…So keep hunting.
Look on Youtube. Some of the Guru’s of vegetarianism are finally admitting that vegetarians do not live longer than people with really bad diets, and in the video, I saw, the Guru displayed statistics in graphs and charts to demonstrate.
Francis
You’re right. I’m not a big fan of hunting … especially giraffes. But, it was great to see “inside” the mind of a hunter. So, I appreciated the article.
“Hunting is a ‘want’ that is a mathematically sustainable activity.”
Does that apply to buffalo, which were almost hunted out of existence? Or whales, some species which are almost on the brink of extinction, due to hunting? Or, rhinos, which people hunt and kill just for their horns .. mostly those Jap and Chink fuckers? Just sayin … it’s not always a mathematically sustainable activity.
I must say, you look like a serious bad ass with that bald head, rifle, and whatever-the-fuck you shot. Really.
What you express Stucky is the difference between hunting as Francis has described it in his article, and killing. And very well I might add. Like the indians who used to run the buffalo off of Buffalo Jump here in Montana. Thousands would die while only a comparatively few could be eaten.
Blessings:-}
Been called lots of stuff in my life but never “bad ass”. I’ll take it as a compliment.
Had an ice/snow storm here last night so have spent the better part of the day digging/chipping all the senior citizens in our life out from the aftermath. Good times.
Anyways – looks like mission accomplished here. Featured at the top of the blog, comment stream going strong, people arguing, some agreeing, and some trying to find middle-ground with a few bordering on indignant and others politely resigned with poor Maggie taking shots in the crossfire. And she hasn’t even made a post. Classic TBP.
I’ll see if I can get to dispelling some myths that are being batted around here as fact on all sides of the discussion but there is much work to do here too. Maybe I’ll post that podcast I did and you can hear me talk about some of it.
Anyways, thanks for the suggestion. Stay warm down there.
Edit: PS – It’s a very large Blue Wildebeest bull. The tongue is like veal. Very good.
Definitely a compliment.
I recall from some nature show quite some time ago that a Wildebeest is extremely dangerous and unpredictable. And they carry a grudge … will pursue an enemy for days on end. Maybe I’m wrong.
Were you ever in danger? Did you experience fear?
They’re less wrathful than raccoons. He certainly suffered less.
Bwwwwaaahhhaaaaa!!!!
You should have used a 2 x 4 on the wildebeest.
That would have been unethical. But I guess in a pinch it would do.
The killing of buffalo almost to extinction was done at the encouragement of the U.S. government, which was trying to get rid of the Native Americans by starving them to death. The whales were hunted for their oil, which was used in lamps, around the 18th century. That was done by government monopolies.
Food is different in each culture. Though we may not eat a giraffe, there are people that will if they’re hungry, like those in Africa. Many also eat monkeys, which we would never think of doing. In Asia, dogs and cats are eaten regularly, but we treat them as part of our family. The idea of hunting for food is different in each country. Would you hunt and kill large moths to eat like some people do in Africa? Do you step on snails or eat them? It all depends on culture and beliefs of what is food and what it is not.
Thank you Vic.
I’d add that the buffalo were more or less wiped out not only to destroy the economic infrastructure of the various Indian nations of the region but also as a matter of practicality. You cannot plant crops or run cattle where millions of bison roam. They were in the way of ‘progress’. Thus they were ‘eliminated’ not ‘hunted’ in the sense that we are discussing here.
Francis, that comment was really in reply to Stucky, above, asking about hunting buffalo and whales to extinction. Just trying to set the record straight. The normal hunters weren’t exactly the culprits.
I have “always” fished. I started hunting after I escaped from greater suburbia. I started trapping a couple years after. I enjoy all three immensely, the fishing is maybe a mile away, hunting and trapping right outside the door. I also raise chickens every year, for our use. For reasons I have never tried to figure out, or explain, I thoroughly enjoy being connected with other animals in those ways.
I don’t care what you kill and eat as long as it’s not me or my family. BTW you would not want to try the fam we are greasy and tough. Italian and Scottish.
Bob.
I keep reading about giraffe, bison heffalumps and woozles.
Whatever.
However, I am not too sure about hunting moratoriums of some creatures.
For example: RINOs ?
Why not Rinos? Oh, I see what you did…RINOs. Goooood one.
FM, I am a small, thin female who hunts. The most quietest places on earth are hunting grounds. By quiet, I mean void of human chatter!
When I was a long distance runner who was also a vegetarian, I lost too much weight. When preparing Venison Bourguignon, I am not concerned with losing weight anymore.
More than preparing recipes perfect for my diet, I need to experience hunting. Hunters have an opportunity to establish conservation and hunting skills. I require a life whereupon I can demonstrate these skills. From the quiet labor of hunting to processing, I look forward to each phase of the hunting season. I am not focused on wants and needs, as an attempt to explain my lifestyle. I focus on demonstrating my ability to hunt, and continually learn how to respectfully process my targets.
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navel
Ted Kazinsky’s manifesto (aka “the Unabomber”) did a great job explaining why modern life leads to a disconnected life by millions. He suggests basic functions in support of your family/tribe are what gives life meaning. Hunting is but one of those tasks. Easy to measure success and essential to survival of your group (harvesting of resources). It’s primal thus not easily justified or explained.
“Justified” is distinct from “explained”. Ingroup bias is a preliminary explanation for anthropocentric framing used to justify the desire to kill trophy beasts or beasts of prey — human or not. Thanks for the visual.
Good post and comments. I was most in agreement with Tree Farmer. Good pics here, but the safari setting pictures got me thinking…Any chance the Big Game hunters can thin the herd of fat brown wildebeasts roaming around the nations capital? The herd is getting too big, they consume too much, are shittin’ all over the place, the crocs can only get a few, and them’s one fugly ahnnimahl. I bet they smell pretty foul, and the grunting noises they make are disgusting. Donate the harvest to compliment the gubmint cheese so the free stuff army doesn’t go hungry. Might be a win-win.
Coyotes are taking over the cities.
They are getting to be a more common sight on city streets in New England than stray/feral dogs.
Open fire!
Could it be because their natural prey are being decimated? Just curious. I wouldn’t know the answer to that.
Wip,
It’s a result of the opposite. Game populations (predators too) tend to grow when there is an abundance of food. Whatever they are eating in these areas (likely mice, rats, and small domestic animals) there is plenty of. So as the resident population grows the excess moves into new territory in search of more food.
There’s now a shitload of rabbits in cities because people aren’t allowed to let their dogs run free like they did 30+ years ago. So the coyotes, foxes and even cougars have a lot of rabbits to hunt.
New housing and neighborhoods and shopping areas are also taking over the territory of wild animals. In my little town, the woods are continually being taken down to accommodate things like municipal buildings and baseball parks. That brings wildlife into the area and closer to humans who want them done away with. If you build a park and housing next to a river that has alligators and the alligators come into your yard and eat your little dog, it that the allegator’s fault?
That brings up the subject of predatory animals. Man has hunted them since time began. If a predatory animals was in your area, you hunted and killed it before it got you. I think that instinct is still present in humans.
Only some humans still kill predators. Modern Europe is a good example of lost instincts.
No, it’s your fault for not preventively shooting the alligators. If you don’t, it’s only a matter of time.
It’s largely the animal rights freaks and “conservationists” messing up the natural balance of things.
Rabbits, deer, and other prey animals are everywhere!
From my earliest days I have killed animals, too many to count. A condition missing in the lives of most modern meat eaters and the lack of respect accompanying the lack of killing shows.
When my testosterone peaked I hunted with an increased blood lust, remembered almost shamefully, almost, for I realize I was but a creature of the environment and forgive myself for my intensity. My family still hunts together perhaps 2 or 3 times every year and I see the same intensity in those following me and I am sure it existed in those before me.
I never hunt predators, I must have been five when my pops shot a coyote out of the truck window, hit him badly, hindquarter shot, that fucker drug himself for miles, both me and my lil brother bawling the whole time. Pops got 50 for the pelt, we needed it, it was before fur was taboo. Those fuckin coyotes are my favorite, the most resilient mother fuckers in North America.
I have been around long enough to know hunters are not the chief danger to wild life, habitat destruction and pollution are in a whole separate league, little league vs. NFL. The misses and I were traveling to family members for the holidays and some of my favorite draws and ditches are now fucking strip malls, those animals are never coming back.
This is writ large, there are no wild places left, none. Our growth model economy ensures it, more lights, more pavement, more shopping, less wild life.
I get up and build shit everyday, homes, shopping, ect. I live with it but am not blind to what I am doing to the west, such as it was.
Killing an apex predator for fun is killing a fellow hunter.
But which is worse, killing animals for fun or killing animals for money? A million plus animals are slaughtered daily in America alone.
Hunters are a trivial minority in that light.
Yes, karalan, the majority of hunters are doing the same thing, but individually, rather than on an industrial scale.
“… end, so long as it’s sustainable (and it is)”. Opinion as fact. Uh? Yep, go right along flying your way, Hummer v your way to endless sustainability. How many dead Congolese permitted your journey to the tundra because you had a cell phone, investments, and white privilege?
Oops, just spouting off jovial speel on ignorance and ignominy.
How can I have white privilege? I’m Canadian…
Also. Don’t own a Hummer (they’re a piece of crap), never been to the Congo but I’m sure there is something there on four legs that might interest me and my business, which is located in the GVRD is primarily funded by Asian privilege of which I am, in a sense, a beneficiary. And happily so, I might add.
Thanks for posting.
There’s tundra in the Congo? Where the hell is my globe?
I have a Snow Globe that says there’s tundra in the Congo…
So. Rather than respond to everyone about everything that has been written – cause I don’t have the time or inclination to (it would go on forever), I’m going to post an interview I did with one of the firearms advocacy groups here in Canada (sort of our equivalent of GOA). It addresses some of the things you guys are talking about in your posts. With regards to Africa, every country is different in terms of their management model. Namibia and South Africa operate on a system that is almost completely privately owned. They are the two countries with some of the densest game populations and the money that we spend stays in private hands.
I’ll let the podcast explain. I’m a bit of a poor speaker and tend to stumble over words a bit and repeat myself a little. The interview with me starts at about the 31-minute mark.
You are NOT a poor speaker!
Listened to 20 minutes … will listen to the rest tomorrow. I like it.
Thx. If you have questions ask and I’ll answer.
I have fished and hunted most of my life . Haven’t been in a few years but I still look forward to the …. ADVENTURE.I have always given everything to other people.I don’t like cleaning fish or wildlife but there are always People who will .Last time I went hunting it was for wild hogs . Wild hogs can tear a dog to pieces in no time . Got to real careful.
Next time, don’t buy the hogs so many beers.
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FM- Thanks for putting it out there, the more intense the flak, the closer you are to the target.
It’s good to give the Overton Window a little nudge now and then. Especially among folks who generally agree on most things.
Canadianism doesn’t rid you of white privilege. You’re going to have to become a lesbian.
Francis,
Thank you for a well written piece but I respectfully disagree. We, all of us, still need to hunt.
I am one generation removed from the true need to hunt to put food on the table. My father won the genetics lottery but his sister and brother were not so lucky. My father was the first in the history of the white side of his family (the Ojibwe/Chippewa the other) , with the aid of the GI Bill, to receive a college education, get a real corporate job and escape the white trash culture. My Aunt and her family received government assistance but in the old days it didn’t stretch far enough to raise five kids. They poached on a regular basis, they did it because they were hungry and needed to eat. My Aunt could butcher a skinned and dressed deer in 20 minutes flat, which she needed to do because the local DNR officer was wise to their ways. I remember clearly the fear and dread one Thanksgiving when the the DNR officer stopped by to say “Hi” and there was an untagged deer hanging behind the outhouse that my uncle shot that morning.
The family tradition of having venison on Thanksgiving and Christmas remains strong. You are not a man until you have taken a deer, knife, bow or gun. To do so you must learn the way of the woods and the way of your prey. Once you do learn the way, it forever becomes a part of you. Something that must be renewed and relived lest it be lost. The soft step in the woods, the flicker of a tail caught on your peripheral and the bounding away when you have stepped hard or stumbled. I will always need to hunt. Sure, I could buy the venison from New Zealand but the eating is only a part of the feast. We only kill what we eat (goes for fish too) and we eat all that we kill. To kill for the sport alone is wrong.
Ate porpoise once, Flipper variety, having taken half of it away from a tiger shark. Taste like very fishy beef – definitely not a do over.
There are areas in the U.S. that are only a few generations removed from needing to hunt to survive. Not only in the prairie and Wild West as the country expanded, but during the Civil War when Southerners were starving and having to hunt anything from deer to opossum to mice to survive. Don’t think it can’t happen again. Best to keep the hunting skills up. We may need them sooner than later.
Mice? C’mon, now.
Yes, rats and mice. You should read some of the Civil War diaries. Maybe not hunted with a gun, but eaten nonetheless.
That’s what I was driving at. You shoot a mouse and there will be precious little left to eat, in most cases.
I still marvel that my own grandfather grew up without indoor plumbing or electricity, and yet my son would surely perish without Wi-Fi…
True. But hunting isn’t just with guns. 🙂
Yes, a great, great grandfather and his sons and brothers fought in the Civil War. My ancestor who came from Scotland in 1760 (my mother’s side of the family) had two plantations in South Carolina (with a total of 11 slaves on both, but he also had 13 sons and 3 daughters.) The plantations were broken up through generations so sons could have property. Some still had small plantations or farms when the Civil War broke out and lost them. I know this because of a family history done by a relative. Don’t know about other parts of the family and their participation in the war.
My grandmother on my mother’s side was born at the end of Reconstruction. I currently live in the house my grandparents lived in, which my grandfather built in the early ’40s.
I doubt I’ll get a chance to go to New England any time soon, but I thank you for your kind invitation. My ex is from New England, from Greenwich, Connecticut. I’ve been trying to get him to take my son up there for a visit. It’s beautiful up there.
Got a old family recipe for baked possum. Always thought I would take a pass on it, but times may change. If you want the recipe for future reference, I will gladly share.
Rats are considered a delicacy in parts of the Orient. Maybe we should query our Chinee friends as to how one prepares rat for the table, before the need arises.
“Good news kiddies! Daddy caught two big rats down by the river so we are having meat for Thankgiving dinner this year. And, with two rats, there will be enough meat for everybody to get a taste.”
There is no defendable reason to hunt for predators, but I do. I hunt during the snow season, when it’s so cold that the snow beneath does not melt. Zero degrees max temp, sunshine and 5 mph breeze is perfect. White camo, snow shoes and a rifle that shoots flat. ARs are ok, but lack that snot and accuracy to reach out and touch much beyond 350 yards. I reload and punch lots of paper to stay on. Like I stated before there is no way to defend this type of hunting, and I don’t try. I see winter snow scapes and drift that are as long and high as 100 car freight trains winding across open fields. The biologists tell us that by hunting and stressing the coyote, their population increases. Bill Bonner would call it a win-win. I just call it hunting. Some people hit what they aim at, I’m one of those.
He went out Giraffe hunting
With his elephant and gun
In case of of accidents
He always took his son
He’s the All-Canadian
Pop Tart dealing, Leaf tard loving second limp noodle son
All the children sing,
Hey Bungalow Francis .What did you kill?
what were their chances?
Hey Bungalow Francis
I fish as you hunt , so don’t tell me I will never understand hunting….
I never told YOU anything. Nice song by the way. You got talent. 🙂
Francis, not sure why I was still up at two AM..Must have been some holiday cheer, but I meant to tell you how much I enjoyed the article. Obviously, you realize I’m just having some fun with the giraffe thing, but when I read your story about it I sensed that you were taken back a bit at the guide’s order to shoot it. Further, if I recall correctly, he said to shoot it once but you shot it twice which led me to believe that you had no intention of letting the animal suffer, which, to me, shows what kind of hunter and person you are.
I’m not a hunter. I hunted a few times 40 years or so ago, and I enjoyed being out in the woods, stalking various animals and the overall situation. The killing of animals wasn’t something I took much enjoyment in, especially if I did not need the meat. Fishing however, took up a great deal of my time for decades. I think one of the differences for me was that if I did not want to eat a particular fish I could release it. I admit I felt a bit of remorse if I gut-hooked a fish which sealed its fate. I think it goes back to my early youth when my friend and I went hunting with our BB guns and we collectively killed a Yellow-Bellied Sapsucker. We felt horribly about the kill, buried the poor bird, and immediately resumed doing what we did best – playing Wiffle ball. To this day he and I laugh about the incident and the fact that neither of us is a natural born killer.
I have no problem with hunting whatsoever and I realize the necessity of it at times. The giraffe thing I just find humorous being that they are such vicious, carnivorous creatures. It also reminded me about “Marius” the giraffe a few years ago:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/09/world/europe/denmark-zoo-giraffe/index.html
Anyway, I always enjoy your hunting stories and pictures.
Hi nkit,
Sorry I missed your comment. It’s late in the day and you might not see this. I’ve known from day one where your comments are coming from, I can always tell with people by and large here, my instincts are pretty good that way and so please know they’ve always been received in the spirit they were/are intended.
FWIW if you ever find yourself in my part of the world please look me up. I’d love to buy you dinner. Admin has my contact information on the off chance it ever happens.
And Happy New Year.
Thank you so much for your kindness, Francis. A Happy New Year to you and your family, too. Should you find yourself in Florida I would be happy to reciprocate. Admin has my info. Thank you very much for your offer. The Python hunting is pretty good in the Everglades, and pays well too..
Wants versus Needs.
It ain’t hurting you.
So don’t point at me
I shoot it cuz its there
And if you ask
I do not care
Funny thing is reading thru this thread and my mind had wandered somewhere else.
Here we have Francis admitting to giving in to some base instinct and dammit I couldn’t help but feel a kinship.
Don’t you Stucky?
Seem to recall the same argument been made about something else. This being a place of libertarian ideals were we all preach from what we think are tenable positions. Yes are are the Masters of our Domain.
Francis can shoot his beasts.
And I can pull my shlong
A world that is a better place
Because we all will get along.
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I’m not sure who the better song writer is here. You or nkit. TBP’s Idol competition?
We’ll I try Francis
I come from a long line of hunters and do-it-yourselfers. I figure that meat-eaters who don’t hunt are merely hiring somebody else to do the scut work for them. (Same wrt gardening.)
I began the hunting/outdoorsman thing some 75 years ago. Beaucoup enjoyment. And since I really like the taste of some wild critters, and the meat isn’t available in the local Hoggly-Woggly or the A&Poo Feed Store, how else to have that enjoyment?
And sorta staring at the fire’s coals late at night at hunt camp lets me feel kin to the multitudes of generations who’ve done the same thing before I came along. A connection to the past.
As far as “trophy hunting”: A mature large-antlered whitetail buck is a pretty smart critter when it comes to survival. Just finding him is a challenge. It is far more difficult than finding a doe or a young forkhorn. Some people like challenges; some don’t. C’est la vie.
I dunno. There’s the social aspect of a small group of hunters who know each other and get along well, teaching the young’uns what it’s all about–far beyond merely killing.
The hunt, to me, is the fun. The one-shot clean kill is the goal. Then it’s all work until at last you create the “happy tummy”. 🙂
I’m posting this as a service to Francis Marion.
A little birdie told me he’s has a sad cuz this thread was stuck on 160.
Now it’s 161!!! Yea!!!!
He might respond with a “thanks”. Then it will be at 162. Whoopeee!!
178 !! 22 to 200! Let’s get it going you lazy bums!
The last ten or so posts on The Sermon … I don’t even know what the fuck is being discussed anymore.
At least here folk are still talkin’ about huntin’.
We hunt. We kill, we are animals that get a thrill from the chase and keeping guns in a case. When the gun goes boom and the animals swoon, soon I will have another addition for the trophy room. Call me primitive, call me what you will, I care not for your imprecations or negative attitude, I am a hunting fool. Doggerel is my meme and you can stick your sophistry deep in between your flabby cheeks, that have never climbed peaks in search of a animal to bag, so much fun to be had reconnecting to our inner predator and shed this skin of civility, morality and saying death is a sin.
Addendum: I don’t know about African lions, but I know from taste-test that the American cougar is definitely good eating. 🙂
Recommended: Half to two-thirds grown for size. Slow cook barbecue. Yummy.
Cougar…?
Give it to Mikey… he’ll eat anything.
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Wip. These are both hilarious. They are going on my blog. Thanks!
The last one I posted as something to think about.
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For those that like hunting, fishing and camping, here’s a good YouTube channel called TA Outdoors. They’re in England so the only hunting I’ve seen is with pellet guns. But they show fishing, cleaning and cooking over a fire. They build shelters. Last night, watched a video on making fish oil to burn in a survival situation. They even show how to catch mice and rats in your home. Good info for females. But good videos for all who are interested.
Here’s an example:
On one trip to Africa, Francis Marion decided to get a tan.
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Four to go to 200!!!
Meh, once you’ve hunted men, there’s not much excitement in hunting animals that can’t kill you.
I love this thread!!
200!!!!!
I was #100. And now #200.
Where’s my free Wildebeest tongue??
I was 200 and 300 on your thread. What did I get? Not even a thank you.