Countries and Nations

Guest Post by The Zman

In our current age, we just assume that the world is organized into countries. Look at any map and there is no place on earth that is not part of a country. The exceptions are the Arctic and Antarctica. They are governed by a coalition of countries, but they lack more than a sprinkling of people. Otherwise, every bit of the world, that has people, is part of a country. More important, a bedrock assumption of the people who rule over us is that countries are a permanent part of the human condition. Countries are forever.

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Nothing is forever, of course, but we can get a sense of how durable the current country model is by looking at some recent examples. The war in Iraq to topple Saddam Hussein revealed that Iraq was not a unified country. The big sectarian divisions of Sunni, Shia and Kurdish became a problem as soon as Saddam was toppled. Then, within those larger divisions, there were smaller groups with other loyalties. There are 150 tribes in Iraq and below that are hundreds of clans and thousands of houses. Iraq is a complicated place.

After the fall of Saddam, we learned just how complicated. It turned out that keeping Iraq together required a very strong central government with the ability to balance the various tribes against one another to keep the peace. Even after the US military figured it out and pacified most of the place, the government did not fully control all of the country. The only reason it remains an intact country today is the surrounding countries prevent it from breaking up and the West provides money and material so the government can survive.

The fact is, Iraq is a country only as long as the rest of the countries accept it as a country and help it keep together. If Iran decides it wants to annex part of the country, a part with coreligionists loyal to Iran, there’s not much Iraq can do about it. Joseph Tainter explained this in his book The Collapse of Complex Societies. In the modern age, a society is unlikely to collapse, because of the surrounding countries. like Iraq, a country can go through a very difficult period, but ultimately survive, because there is no other option.

At the other end of the country scale, in terms of internal stability, we have some good recent examples in Eastern Europe. The Visegrád Group, Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, have managed to stay together, despite enormous external pressures. Just surviving the Soviet Empire is something close to a miracle, given what happened to Russia proper. Now, under enormous pressure to allow millions of foreign invaders into their countries, they ostentatiously ignore the demands of Europe.

This is not hard to understand. Poland is 98% Polish. They speak Polish in their homes and see themselves as Polish by ethnicity. The tiny minority communities, like the Silesians, have been there for as long as anyone knows. Slovakia is 80% Slovak, with another 9% Hungarian. Again, the minority population has been there forever. The Czech Republic is 95% Czech. These countries are not just arbitrary markings on a map. They are nation-states that share a common language and a common heritage.

The peculiar history of these countries may explain why they have survived as nation-states, but also why they resist the calls for open borders. All of these nation-states have been absorbed by empires, but they have never been on the other end. Poland never tried to conquer Europe. Still, the core reason they have managed to survive through conquest and division is they are nation-states. What this says is that countries can come and go, but the nation-state has permanence. As long as there are people, there will be a Poland.

That brings us to another type of country, the United States. At the founding, calling America a nation-state was a bit of a stretch, but not unreasonable. The overwhelming majority of the people were English and spoke English. There were some Dutch and Indians, with some French sprinkled in, but the only other ethnic group of any consequence were Germans. They were about 10% of the population at the founding and clustered in the midland states, like Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Maryland.

That’s not the America of today. You can probably just lump in the whites as a single ethnic group, the White American, but we have large numbers of non-whites now. Then you have those old regional cultures that are still lurking in the background, creating new divisions among the newcomers, as the newcomers magnify those divisions. Somalis dumped in Maine are going to change the state in a different way than those dumped into West Virginia. America is looking more like Iraq than the Visegrád nations.

A reasonable person should wonder how long before America starts to have the same troubles as we saw in Iraq. The central government is better organized and more capable than the Iraqi government, but there are limits to everything. The Federal government largely depends on the states voluntarily going along with what the Federal legislature decides is the law. But as we see with California, states are starting to buck this trend, mostly due to their new citizens. California is really not America now, in reality.

This brings us back to Tainter. His conclusion, after reviewing and analyzing why complex societies collapse, is that the modern age has too much inter-dependency for a society to collapse. Every country has deep connections with neighboring countries. Everyone agrees upon the borders and that the country system must be maintained. The thing is though, the primary force behind this is the United States. Without American economic and military might, the country system probably falls apart, at least at the fringes.

That’s not to say America is headed for a collapse or even a crackup. Maybe as the country turns into Brazil demographically, it will avoid becoming Brazil economically and culturally. The bigger question though is when does the internal cost of keep this country together, cut into the resources needed to keep the country system together? At what point does the vibrancy of America make it impossible to keep an Iraq together or a Mexico from dissolving into chaos? Someone should think about that.

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14 Comments
hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
May 14, 2018 2:16 pm

“The Visegrád Group, Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, have managed to stay together, despite enormous external pressures.”

I have never heard the term ‘the Visegrad group’ in my life. And using the Czech Republic and Slovakia as examples of countries enduring without mentioning the name Czechoslovakia as an example of a failed country is something beyond ironic.

To non-Visegard groupists at least.

Zarathustra
Zarathustra
  hardscrabble farmer
May 14, 2018 7:29 pm

No wonder. The Visegrád Group is a country in the same way that NAFTA is.

22winmag - when you ask someone which floor they'd like, and they respond with "ladies lingerie"- they're referencing the AEROSMITH SONG!!!
22winmag - when you ask someone which floor they'd like, and they respond with "ladies lingerie"- they're referencing the AEROSMITH SONG!!!
May 14, 2018 2:32 pm

Jolly ol’ England is going down the tubes partly as bad karma for allowing white-ruled Rhodesia to burn in the 70s leading to Zimbabweland, and in present times, allowing formerly white-ruled South Africa to burn.

You can’t appease or play nice with Jihadists or black CT’s- Communist terrorists.

javelin
javelin
May 14, 2018 3:07 pm

Thought provoking piece–thanks.

As an afterthought, it appears as if these same observations apply heavily in Africa. With tribal factions often warring and new “countries” forming from the instability. Heck, it was just a few years ago that Sudan broke into 2 separate countries.
Without US or European involvement ( as there barely is in African politics south of the N. Coastal areas), the sub-Saharan part will always be in a tribal ( and religious) flux. Unfortunately, with the change of leadership, large masses want to asylum to the West as “refugees”–just hope that Islam does not escalate a civil war in Nigeria. With their HUGE population, they could be the straw that broke the back of the west if tens of millions fled the continent.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
May 14, 2018 4:40 pm

Yeah Z I like the piece too, but I would suggest that it requires that there be Polish people for there to continue to be a Poland. I would also like to point out that in Iraq, the Kurds kept to themselves in the North. It was the old confrontation between Shia and Sunni that had to be kept in control through brute force. Here in the us the groups that you refer to are not concentrated to a large extend. There is no Hispanic region like there is a Kurdish region. OK, I see that you think of CA as an Hispanic region but it really isn’t. The Kurds kept their own army, the Hispanic community does not.

Mr. Frosty
Mr. Frosty
  Hollywood Rob
May 14, 2018 5:57 pm

Ethnic gangs act as the military wing of their respective communities. If/when the US government collapses, they will form militias to directly control territory.

Neuday
Neuday
  Hollywood Rob
May 14, 2018 6:33 pm

If the “hispanic community” has no army, how did they chase the blacks out of South Central?

MN Steel
MN Steel
  Neuday
May 14, 2018 9:32 pm

Random drops of workboots and bars of soap?

nkit
nkit
May 14, 2018 6:09 pm

[imgcomment image:large[/img]

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
May 14, 2018 7:39 pm

America will stay together because it practices values no other place in the world does. Go into Costco and look at the different ethnic groups shopping there. People come here; as they always have, with strong ethnic roots but over time they adjust to the american way. And they bring something with them that blends into the american culture. Look at the children of all the foreigners coming here. They are being influenced by the public school system to become American.

America is still a shining light to the world. People can do things here they cannot do in their own countries. Sure there is plenty bad here but there is much more good. It is really all about attitude and putting oneself in the right place.

TampaRed
TampaRed
  Thunderbird
May 14, 2018 9:29 pm

tbird,
a few questions if you’ll answer them?
your age?
what major cosmopolitan areas have you lived/worked in the usa & for how long in each?
would you tend to think that immigrants are assimilating better,worse,or the same then in the past?

RHS Jr
RHS Jr
  Thunderbird
May 14, 2018 10:40 pm

Never could persuade employers to ignore the government racist quotas no matter how much more qualified I was, nor could I “put myself” into being a “Minority”. I just hope I live a little longer to even the Universal Scales per se.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
May 14, 2018 9:52 pm

@TampaRed: What is your point?

TampaRed
TampaRed
May 15, 2018 10:18 am

tbird,
my point is that imo the heat that fuels the melting pot has mostly died down & if more fuel is not rapidly added it will go out altogether–
i asked the questions because i suspect that you’re either one of the geezers on this list who don’t circulate much or you live in a part of the country where there are not many immigrants–
i’m not against immigration but we need to do it correctly–