Robert Bronsdon (Hollywood Rob) September 2018
Perhaps it is time to investigate another aspect of our reality, and the quest to understand it.
I am pretty sure that Sean Carroll has left some pretty good sized holes in his argument, but I leave it to you all to address how he may have missed the mark.
I will stand down. I wish you well in winning hearts and changing minds.
Good for you Maggie. The road is narrow and few will choose it.
Thanks, motley. Besides, I kind of sense a lot of hearts being drawn toward our Lord here. Who knows for whar purpose this trainwreck is intended?
You know, it might be shocking to some people around here, but I have very extensive training in areas of science. I know and have communicated with other people of a scientific mindset. However, when I tell some of these people that doors at my old house fly open with no explanation, electronic devices come on by themselves, there are footsteps heard on a very frequent basis and sometimes this goes on for days at a time, etc. and etc.; they tell me it can’t be. I tell them there are multiple witnesses, who all were frightened by it because obviously it’s not normal. They still tell me I’m wrong. I know they’re full of shit because I and others have been experiencing it for years. I’m sure Sean Carrol would probably have a similar response about these occurrences.
Basically, science people who stick to solving immediate, tangible problems have advanced our civilization, but when they try to apply logic to things that cannot be explained to begin with, they usually make fools of themselves.
Why waste you time showing everyone that you are a fool talking about the intangibles when you can be looking at problems that can be measured and solved?
Perhaps you were in getting a beer when he addressed that very aspect of his analysis. Or maybe you didn’t watch the video. Or it could be that your extensive training in areas of science is not as extensive as you believe.
Getting a beer? Nope. Too early to drink, and I don’t like beer much anyhow. Watched it. Yep. Yawn. Extensive scientific training not as extensive as I believe, according to you? You’re wrong again. Spent plenty of money and time and got the sheep skins over in the bookcase. Got any other smart-ass comments to make, California boy? BTW my IQ is about 142. Not real high but not real low either.
This is a serious question HR, why are you so afraid of the idea of the existence of a creator/God? Why do you try so hard to convince people God does not exist? I really don’t understand why you bother.
Thank you Rocky. That is a serious question and I will try to provide you with a serious answer based on my understanding of the problem. Let me start with a problem which I suspect will not garner and resistance. I contend that muslims, with their Koran and their Allah, are a direct threat to me, and to you. If they could, without hesitation, they would kill us as soon as look at us. This is taught to them in their book, the koran, and so it has been since the religion of peace was invented some 500 years or so after christ. In the years after christ there were christians who would gladly slaughter muslims if they could find them. And they did. Christ, who was a very orthodox jew, followed a religion which, according to it’s book, was authorized by god (their god, not Allah) to slaughter all of the tribes that lived in the area around them. They have written in their book that it is ok to slaughter all who are not jews. The christians have in their book the slaughter rules of the jews, and the slaughter rules of the christians. Notice I didn’t say the slaughter rules of christ as nobody seems to think that he had any slaughter rules, but it is safe to assume that as a jew, he most certainly followed the jewish teachings and their slaughter rules. The muslims, who agree with the jews slaughter rules and the christian slaughter rules add their own slaughter rules.
All assume that god has chosen them to be his people. All assume that they have divine right to rule over the world. All assume that no one else is right because only they are receivers of the word of god. All assume that god has purpose for them.
So having said all of that, you can see that I look upon all of the worlds great religions not as a boon to mankind, but as a curse that has allowed the slaughter of hundreds of millions of people over thousands and thousands of years. Now you might not have slaughtered anybody, or maybe you have. I can’t know. But people, maybe even people that you know and love, have slaughtered people in the righteous name of their god. To me, it does not matter what name they give to their god. All that matter is to end the slaughter and you can’t do that, in my estimation, without ending the authority for the slaughter.
That is why I find the reversion to religious argument as so pernicious. That is why I chose to confront those who would authorize the slaughter. That is why I bother.
HR thanks for the explanation, but I think your fear of being harmed by those who believe there is a God, and thus harm you for their particular religious reason, is statistically irrelevant, when compared to being harmed by people with other reasons to harm you. Like governments (especially socialist/communist ones historically), social issue fanatics, white people haters (I assume you are white) and the assorted dump ass/potentially violent people you encounter every day. So look at the statistics of potential harm that could come your way here in the USA via people, on a day to day basis, pick the number one chance of harm, and try to do something about that. And forget about the statistically insignificant ones.
I hope this helps you to overcome your unfounded fear of being harmed by someone for religious reasons.
Of course setting aside the experiences of the Swedish, the British, the Italians. Those people who have been murdered or raped by muslims, they don’t count?
The citizens in those countries are being put in harms way by their own governments; it’s a government problem. Muslims are a convenient and useful ideological group for the governments to wield a hammer against their own citizens. Wake up HR, it’s a government problem, not a God problem. Always has been, always will be.
Couple things.
The OT slaughters have been hashed and rehashed many times on this blog. A quick online search could lead you to some scholarly theological discussions regarding the issue, perhaps clarifying the rationale, such as it is, for those events.
Jesus was not an Orthodox Jew, although he was schooled as such growing up. He mocked the Jewish leaders for their legalism/hypocrisy and distortion of the Law. The only solution they had for this upstart was to get rid of him. Furthermore, claiming that Jesus condoned the slaughter of anybody only betrays your ignorance of his life and teachings.
And while on the subject of slaughter, it is clear from history that atheist communists are probably the most efficient murderers ever.
1) —- ” …. but it is safe to assume that as a jew, he [Jesus] most certainly followed the jewish teachings and their slaughter rules.”
Probably not a very good assumption. The Jewish sect that kept all the rules were the Pharisees … and they hated Jesus with a passion. In fact, on more than one occasion they condemned Jesus for NOT keeping the rules.
You speak of Judaism as a single unified entity. It was not. In addition to Pharisees, the NT mentions the Sadducee and Essene sects. There were literally dozens of Jewish sects/groups. Do we even know which group Jesus most identified with, if any? And if not, then let’s not ascribe to Jesus words, actions, and beliefs of which we have no idea.
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2) —- Let me just mention Christians. You mention all the evil which Christians have done. And there is truth to that. But …. it is not the complete truth. It’s a half truth. Because Christians/Christianity have/has done great good. Examples are legion. Are you willingly turning a blind eye to the good that has come from Christianity?
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3) —- I assume your alternative is to believe in no God. Will that make things better?? Will that calm our aggressive reptile brain? If only there were no God, wars will cease or be greatly reduced. Is that it? Well, then please explain Communism, and the millions of humans killed under that belief system.
I gotta get some Makua honey for mom. Looking forward to reading your response tomorrow.
It is a trainwreck that can’t be stopped. Just watch it in horror and realize that there really are none so blind.
it is not fun living in a haunted house, a few nights ago i was woke up by something jumping on my bed… The only problem was that i was alone and no one else there..
(Per/Norway, i hit the comment button a bit early)
Who breathed fire into the “equations”?
Nobody breathed anything into the equations. That is kinda his point.
How would one account for the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in description of the natural sciences? Coincidence perhaps?
Well, you could start with Sean’s explanation of the fact that all of those constants that you have to put into those mathematical equations are so far from what one would assume that they should be. The math and it’s constants are simply representations of the observations made on the universe. If you make different observations, you get different equations.
Equations are not physics. They are simply models of the observable facts put into mathematical form so predictions can be made.
Many mathematical physicists would disagree and insist that the mathematics are primary. But in any case, the mere fact that the mathematics of quantum theory “work” at all, much less to such precision, bears some consideration (see Eugene Wigner).
Yes you are exactly right about that. And I would add that many physicists would disagree as well. In fact, Sean would be one of them. But to suggest that the mathematical models match the observations from which they were derived is circular logic. Of course they do match, as they must, for they are derived from the observations.
I can just imagine your opinion of Sir Isaac Newton and some of his writings. or Nicola Tesla in addition.
Both Newton and Tesla were theists on the horns of this very dilemma.
A really hard read but fascinating thoughts
https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm
The Secret Doctrine
THE SYNTHESIS OF SCIENCE, RELIGION, AND PHILOSOPHY.
by H. P. Blavatsky
The fact that there is order in the universe should tell us something. The fact that humans are eternity blind; that is, we cannot see with our senses the 5th & 6th dimensions, yet mathematicians can express in their language these dimensions; such as in unified field theory, tells us that higher intelligence than that of man exists in the universe. To call this higher intelligence God is not unreasonable.
This man’s questioning of the Theory of God; whether passive or active, doesn’t change the fact that a higher intelligence exists in the universe.
Religion tells us there is a God of the universe. It doesn’t tell us scientifically but rather emotionally when we ponder the notion of God with our heart. Conversely, science appeals to our intellect to explain the order of the universe from our sense observations that proves a higher order of intelligence running the show.
In the past up to the present, religion and science have been at odds when it comes to explaining God. I think this is going to change. Science is every day more confirming there is a higher intelligence running the universe although it does not call this intelligence God.
Religion on the other hand which has captivated the masses with it’s colorful language coming from a past era not dominated by intellectual thought among the general population is losing it’s appeal to the general population of today simply because it has failed to keep up with man’s changing consciousness and development of scientific thought patterns. It has failed to see the contribution science has made that confirms the higher nature of God.
In the past era people in the general population were mostly illiterate. Emotion and bodily movement were the driving forces in the human experience. Religion was a major motivating force for the people because it appealed to the emotions and heart. People were much closer to nature; and nature being mysterious, cyclic and orderly confirmed the presence of God in all it’s activities. People lived in their emotions and body consciousness while their intellects suffered from lack of development.
In the present era due to the learning of reading, writing and arithmetic the intellect has been developed while our emotions and bodily predilections have been ignored to the point where a serious imbalance is affecting the human psyche. The religion of the past era cannot; or rather cannot address this imbalance, because it was not created to appeal to the developed intellect of today’s generation.
We live in a world far different than the one Christianity came into existence two thousand years ago. Where did the prophets go? Where did revelation go? Why isn’t there any more scriptures being written since the end of the Old and New Testaments? Why are ministers stuck in the past when explaining God?
Well the answer to these questions is simple. The religions of the past were made for a past era of people and their usefulness has come to an end.
The prophets are still here and so is revelation. And more scripture is being written. It is just not coming from the old religions of the past.
The prophets are employed in the fields of psychology and philosophy while science is the generator of revelation of God’s eternal patterns in the universe around us.
A new religion is reveling itself in the world. The collapse of the old religions unfortunately is causing confusion, and the violence in the world is confirmation that old religious ways are outdated for the current generation.
God is not a person. God is spirit.
To illustrate this take an example such as: The letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter of the law is the law as it is written for people to follow. The spirit of the law is the intent for which the law was written. When the spirit of the law is lost then the letter of the law invites tyranny. This is why administrative law is failing us today; especially in the criminal justice and judicial system.
The old dominate religious systems are practicing under the letter of the religion rather than the spirit in which these religions came into existence. Mindful people want to know more than that’s the way it is. They want to know why, how and what.
Those with developed eyes to see and ears to hear can see the transition taking place in the world. Those stuck in the old thoughts can only see confusion and violence associated with the interpolated writings by men of today still stuck in the old religions.
Great response Tbird. While you know I don’t agree with you, you have done an admirable job of hypothesizing an evolution of religion. So let me offer this; you conflate mathematical models of reality with actual reality. There are no additional dimensions in reality. Those dimensions are only available to mathematicians. We can’t perceive them because they don’t exist save in the minds of mathematicians. It is not because we lack the senses to perceive them.
But still, great post. And neither of us likely have an IQ of 143.
Hollywood Rob,
Thank you for your positive reply. You make a good point about the non-existence of additional dimensions in reality. I can understand your thinking there.
But let me guide you to some reading material that may help you realize that more dimensions do exist in reality that we are blind to at the present moment due to our limited view of reality due to our identity with our physical senses.
In the second chapter of his book entitled “A New Model of the Universe,” P.D. Ouspensky discusses how a two dimensional being views a three dimensional being from it’s plane of existence. A three dimensional being crossing a flat plain does not at all resemble itself in a two dimensional world. It comes and goes as a strange phenomena.
So it is with our perception of atoms, electrons, magnetism and gravity in our four dimensional world of space and time.
Mathematicians do conflate mathematical models with reality and that is how many discoveries have been made.
Take electricity for example. No one has seen an electron or the force field around the movement of electrons in a wire yet we put an insulating plastic coating around a wire conducting electricity to keep the electrons from shocking us at the touch.
In our 4 dimensional world we can measure the flow of electricity in time but we cannot see the movement of it in our 3 dimensional world except in the form of lightning; like the 2 dimensional being sees the phenomena of our three dimensional body crossing a line.
In the last 100 years science has opened the doors of our mind to see many wonders of the world around us. Because of mathematical models developed by scientific minded mathematicians our intellects have grasped ideas that were once deemed miraculous to generations before us. Our intellect can see where our physical senses cannot see. I believe with the further development of our intellect we will eventually see the realm of the 5th and 6th dimensions as they really are.
You are right to question my thinking as it helps me to look into my own thought process and weed out erroneous assumptions or content with not enough substance to properly demonstrate my point.
I appreciate your acknowledgement of my aim to see an evolution of religion. It is due.
Thank you.
What were the odds?
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/728262/bible-prophecy-hebrew-red-heifer-messiah-jewish-christianity-israel-jerusalem-third-temple
Same as these odds
https://www.thoughtco.com/prophecies-of-jesus-fulfilled-700159
‘Some Bible scholars suggest there are more than 300 prophetic Scriptures completed in the life of Jesus. Circumstances such as his birthplace, lineage, and method of execution were beyond his control and could not have been accidentally or deliberately fulfilled.’
Really! Oh come on. They show you a picture of a red heifer born to a red cow and you announce the second coming!
I didn’t write the prophecy.
It happened in spite of your incredulity. That is what you don’t understand or cannot accept.
Thanks, Susie.
………and neither is the unprovable and nonobserable and nonreplicable FALSE theory of evolution!
If anybody doesent believe this ya-hoo, or has serious doubts about his arguments and logic please watch the YouTube videos of Ravi Zacharias. Ravi presents well thought out, common-sense, logical, philosophical, and scientific arguments for the existence of God. Be blessed Hollywood Rob! You allready are and you don’t even realize it!!! Matt. 5.45 In order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.-Jesus Christ
And this, Rocky, is why it is so important.
Elsen y’all get this.