Guest Post by The Zman
For the longest time, it was assumed by science that there was not a single gene that caused homosexuality. The reason is a gay gene would make the person less sexually fit and therefore less likely to reproduce and pass on the gene. It does not take much of a disadvantage for a trait to disappear from the pool over enough time. If such a gene did exist, so it was thought, it would have disappeared from the human gene pool a long time ago and homosexuality with it. Therefore, something else must be at work.
Human societies have, for the most part, assumed homosexuality was to some degree a choice. Like an excessive desire for drink or criminality, that natural inclination could be controlled with enough determination. Like alcoholism or criminality, homosexuality came to be seen as a moral failing. On the other hand, there was always that sense that like alcoholism or criminality, some people are born bad. For whatever reason, they lacked the mechanisms to control their passions or the will to do so.
The source of this divide is the philosophical argument that there are facts that can be tested and values that are purely opinion. A scientific theory is one that can be tested, while an ethical proposition cannot. If something cannot be tested and possibly falsified, it is not science. In the case of something like human traits, it means there is either a biological mechanism to explain it completely or it is purely a social construct with no biological root. Traits fell on either side of the fact-value divide.
As in moral philosophy, the fact-value divide with regards to human traits is starting to come apart, as science gives us a greater understanding of human genetics. For example, complex human traits like intelligence are not the result of a single gene, but the result of many genes. In the case of intelligence, science has identified 55 alleles that influence general intelligence. How these switches are set influences intelligence, but the combinations are also an important factor.
In the case of homosexuality, it is starting to look like it may be the result of both a combination of genetics and environmental factors. A recent study has found two SNPs that influenced both male and female homosexuality. These are not the “gay genes” some thought existed, but two “switches” that have a strong association with homosexuality in men and women. That means homosexuals tend to have these two markers, but it does not mean all people with them are gay.
As with intelligence, something as complex as human sexuality probably has many genes that influence the trait. It could also mean other traits come along with the ride, as they are also associated with the set of genes that cause homosexuality. It’s entirely possible that this set of genes is responsible for a range of behaviors that are often associated with homosexuals. In other words, the attraction to the same sex is just one result of many from a set of genes turned on or off in the person.
A useful way of thinking about this is to imagine genes that cause someone to become an alcoholic. Let’s say ten genes positively or negatively influence a person’s propensity to alcoholism. If all ten switches are on, you will be a serious drunk. If all ten switches are off, you will be a teetotaler. Then there are the combinations in between. Alcoholism is therefore a spectrum. The person’s ability to control their drinking will depend upon where they fall on the spectrum and their access to alcohol.
That last part is where the either/or way of thinking falls apart. Someone with a lot of the drunk switches set to on, but living in a society without alcohol or one with severe repression of it, like Saudi Arabia, is less likely to be a drunk than the same person living in Ireland. In fact, that person with the high genetic propensity to alcoholism may never express those traits, because they are never exposed to alcohol. At the extremes, at least, environment can overcome nature with regards to behavior.
Now, bringing this back to a behavior like homosexuality, it is plausible that it is a spectrum, like the alcoholism example. Anyone who has been out in the world long enough knows that gays come in many varieties. At the one end are the flamboyant Milo Yiannopoulos types, while at the other end of the spectrum are the prudish Lindsey Graham types. In reality, homosexuality probably has more complexity than a linear range. Those switches result in a variety of manifestations.
What it means is that the trait is probably not purely biological. There’s a lot of evidence that homosexual males share more than two SNP’s. They also seem to share grooming stories in their youth. Homosexuals report a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than do heterosexual men and women. This may simply be a downstream result of genetic factors, but it has been something science has observed for a long time, going back to when homosexuality was treated as a mental disorder.
This is where the fact-value divide closes. If it is a fact that some human traits fall along a range of propensity, based on genetics, then environment plays some role in how those traits are expressed. Put in terms of this topic, if homosexuality is a propensity, then cultural logic that discourages the activity will reduce the amount of homosexual activity in the society. This is the same logic behind banning alcohol. If it is hard to get alcohol, many people prone to alcoholism will never become drunks.
We may be seeing this put to the test with the youngest generation. There have been quite a few surveys indicating young people are the gayest generation. Here’s a story from last year on a survey of young people and sexual identity. Here is a post from the Progressive-adjacent blogger Audacious Epigone using recent survey data. According to that study, nearly 1-in-5 people under the age of thirty identify as something other than heterosexual. It appears that Gen-Z is super gay.
Now, such surveys should be treated with some skepticism. Young people are dumb and most are prone to repeating what they see in the media. Because the usual suspects tell them homosexuality is the best, many will claim to be some exotic sexuality as a moral signifier. The problem with surveys is respondents tend to tell the survey taker what they think is right. What these surveys may be picking up is the public reaction to the new morality being imposed on them by the usual suspects.
Even so, if sexuality, particularly homosexuality, is purely genetic, independent of environmental factors, then we should not see a real shift in homosexual activity when the culture changes. A study of venereal disease rates would probably be a good proxy to measure homosexual activity. If what the survey data suggests is true and we are seeing a real increase in homosexual activity, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that culture plays some role in the frequency of homosexuality.
That means debating these cultural issues is not only valid, but a necessary thing for every society. After all, if sexuality is purely natural, then debating the culture issues surrounding it is a waste of time. On the other hand, if culture matters a lot, then debating the morality surrounding sexuality is a primary concern. Do we want more homosexuals or fewer homosexuals becomes a valid topic of debate. Leaving it up to nature is no longer a justifiable response.
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How about live and let live? Just don’t push me to accept your lifestyle choices or rub it in my face. Let me be free to live my life as I choose without being slandered as a homophobe or whatever you want to call me… Chip
Yeah, that works right up until you allow a the usual suspects to immigrate and take control of your government, media, finance, and education.
It is not the nature of the left to let us live by our own morals. We must like what they say is good and hate what they say is bad. There can be no disagreement or you will be sent to the gulag.
Live and let die!
Lev_20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
That sounds just like Islam.
Who today is under the Levitical law?
It seems that many Jews and Christians refer back to it as ‘Law’ when convenient.
Mistakenly. Critically.
Live and let live? No.
Everything exists along a spectrum, and all human behavior is a blend of Nature versus nurture.
If every human behavior exists along a spectrum and should be considered acceptable, then so too should every opinion and reaction to those behaviors. Every human behavior therefore should be permitted without exception because it is behavior all humans share at some point along that spectrum, therefore it is our human nature.
That’s where we run up against The Narrative.
The Narrative is very clear about what it thinks about homosexuality, about what it thinks you should think about homosexuality, but it is intractable about how humans react to it, i.e. it is a problem if you do not embrace it that needs correction.
That- not homosexuality, not politics, not ideology- is the crux of our societal decline.
Are we free to follow our Nature, or should some people be denied that right because it contradicts the values of those who control The Narrative? And if that’s the case, then any human behavior can be ridiculed or punished at any time depending upon who is in power.
The system we live under is predicated upon contradictions and hypocrisy. It is built upon a foundation of shifting sands, and on morphing values within single lifetimes that cannot be reconciled except by the use of State force and compulsion.
One of the best comments I’ve read this year, Marc. Outstanding.
You too.
@Hardscrabble,
You are right, we live under many contradictions and hypocrisy. That is probably because we are the only animal that has a thinking brain and we still do not have a handle on it’s operation.
The human animal with our thinking brain seems to go against nature in many areas. Take sex in general. In Genesis we are instructed to be fruitful and multiply. So according to God’s word our first responsibility is to procreate. So nature in conformance with the word stimulates the body with hormones to crave sex beginning at the age of 14 for both boys and girls. But going against nature society passes laws to keep us from procreating at this age. By the way 14 is the best time to have babies and avoid complications and bad outcomes. There’s a contradiction for you!
I think homosexuality is a predilection picked up early in life by sense experience and it is fortified by our reptilian brain; also called the brain stem. This part of the brain takes care of our vital functions but also serves to answer the needs of babies in their sense experience by what feels good and what feels bad.
Being a thinking animal our thoughts create our reality. Our emotions and body sensations are stimulated by our thoughts.
Homosexuality just like heterosexuality is governed by our thoughts. It has nothing to do with genes.
I have noticed the marked increase in population during my seven plus decades of life on this planet. I have noticed how this increase has affected living conditions for all of us. I have also noticed the increase in homosexuality that has gone along with our crowded conditions and the effect it has had on human thinking.
Perhaps; just perhaps, nature is telling us it is time to slow down our procreation to a manageable level and that is what homosexuality is all about. The predilection is coming out of the subconscious mind that is very prone to suggestion. And because the subconscious mind is so prone to suggestion homosexuality can be changed to heterosexuality by suggestion; and vice versa.
Just my 2 cents.
I definitely think that there is a link with overpopulation and a rise in non procreational sexual activity across the spectrum. As if the species is being directed away from it’s intended purpose to protect itself long term.
They’ve done the studies with rats that return startlingly similar results- not that we’re rats- but you catch my drift.
Great observations.
Here comes Africa…..
Bilge
Interesting word selection.
Bilge is that viscous, filthy, oily liquid that accumulates in the bottom of a boat’s engine compartment and need to constantly be pumped out.
It may be gross, but it’s real.
So your response can be read either way.
With a question not intended to be witty, though it is, of course:
How much of our Nature depends upon Nurture?
And, if you ever visited there? What are the best seats in this theater…
https://www.thisiscleveland.com/locations/cleveland-masonic-and-performance-arts-center
I plan to send a note your way soon letting you know how it all ended up ending up or at least how I am ending it up. (See? i pay attention most days.)
Homosexual is a wicked and sinful lifestyle choice. Has been always will be. It destroys everything it touches especially the homosexuals. It seems no one ever reads the Bible or history anymore. I’m not saying homosexuals should be harmed in any way by people as a result of self righteous hate by anyone like me who disapproves of homosexuality but let’s call it what it is ,,,,Sin.
Part of me tends to agree, Beebs.
This is one of those topics that seems to always be an issue fraught with disagreement and hand wringing.
Chip’s comment is spot on, IMO.
I’m left wondering if we’ll get answers or more wisdom about it, after we pass.
Is it a sin? Is it a flaw? A human deficiency, or gene run amok?
A design in some, by our Creator, and, if so, for what purpose?
Or, is it human error, cultivated with a growing, wider acceptance by some, in an exercise of free will?
For instance, how is it, that a born gender has strong desires for members of the same, from their earliest stages of feelings for other people?
Inherently to me, it seems to go against nature, yet it seems to be flourishing more than ever.
In my experience, I know a few homos that have some decency, but they also tend to be bitter people, perhaps psychologically wounded from some past experience of rejection or ostracized, maybe from events in early years, that might have influenced or caused lifestyle choices.
The same can be said about almost any character assessment.
i.e., how or why do people turn out the way they are?
Born with genetic predispositions, or learned behavior?
It’s a question sometimes painfully obvious, but in other instances, a mystery.
Perhaps after passing, we’ll be chastised for having closed minded, arrogance in our opinions and beliefs about judgments of right or wrong.
In the end, gut instinct usually has a pretty good track record.
But, like anything else, we ought to allow for a small margin of error.
God only knows.
Very insightful No. 9
“Is it a sin? Is it a flaw? A human deficiency, or gene run amok?”
It’s a choice, like any other sin.
“A design in some, by our Creator, and, if so, for what purpose?”
We were designed male and female; one made for the other with each serving the purpose of the other. It was us, as per usual, that decided Gods natural ways were not good enough, thus we choose our own.
Paul refers back to Gods attitude towards man at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11; just prior to His calling of Abram to begin something new.
Romans 1:26-27 KJB… “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
I am with Chip. What consenting adults do among themselves is between them and God. Leave me alone and I’ll afford you the same respect. I will stand before the Lord by myself and so too will everyone else.
What irks me… heterosexual people don’t define their outward lives by their sexuality. The same cannot be said about most homosexuals. A life defined solely by ones sexual orientation seems just plain shallow to me. As wonderful as sex can be, there’s a lot more life has to offer.
I like your thinking GCP. ?
Talk to your reptilian brain for answers. Everyone is dealing with contradictions. We are born into a world that has no answers to our basic questions. It is left up to us to find those answers. The answers are there but we have to search for them.
You nailed it B.B. When I was putting myself through college, I worked in a hotel. This was many years ago. My immediate supervisor was the biggest queen you could ever imagine. He readily admitted he and his ‘buddies’ would go cruising for young men/boys. He readily admitted that is how they replenished the stock. My first university degree was an undergraduate degree in psychology. This was a time when pc culture was something the tribe of satan only discussed at their annual meetings. One of the courses detailed the evolution of Freud’s theorems. Freud originally posited homosexuality sprung up as a result of early childhood intervention (if you will). The backlash against this was so severe this was squashed and he returned with his Oedipal nonsense. To this day, it is still widely held that many of our sexual preferences (boobs, butts) are derived from a specific early incidence in our childhood/early adolescence that shapes our sexual predilections. Think about as it relates to yourself. For instance … if you find a lady’s long legs very appealing … can you trace it back to something/anything from your childhood? Of course, we don’t care to suggest this is also the case with homosexuality.
Happy Birthday B.B. Keep on spreading the truth. Romans Chapter 1 … Romans Chapter 1.
History has shown that civilizations that began to embrace the homosexual lifestyle were all on their way to their ending. The biggest issue with civilization and nations today is that they see no absolutes – no real right and wrong. Your truth is your truth and mine is mine. It’s called postmodernism and it is flawed. I do read my bible and it does point out absolutes; what’s right; and what’s wrong. We are to hate the sin and love the sinner. This is what I attempt to do every day.
Secular humanism. Moral relativism.
Two of the worst philosophical scourges ever to be thought up by the human mind.
Fuck you with a rusty chainsaw
Point proven.
The older I get the less I know. Tell you what I do know. I have a brother 2 years younger than I that’s a homosexual. In the late ’50s when I was 9 or so I remember playing in the backyard with those little plastic soldiers. At the same time he was about 20 feet away and he was playing with a girl’s doll. Predisposition? I don’t know. Spectrum? I don’t know. Nor do I really care. I’m about where SmallerGovNow’s comment is. Live your life and leave me alone.
i had a friend in elementary school like your brother. at recess, during the guys/girls divide, he would play with the girls. i believe he did not choose. however, lots of people are choosing homosexuality now, because some have an overwhelming need to be cool, different, noticed, etc. people like to herd. homosexuality, like tattoos, will be cool until it’s common.
“at recess, during the guys/girls divide, he would play with the girls”
Yup.
Bilge. If you like pussy then you aren’t going to suck dick
Gay folks, being a sexual minority, have a much smaller pool of potential sex partners to hook up with than heterosexual people.
So gay folks get creative to expand the pool.
They expand it by lowering the age bar (more sex with teens and kids) and by lowering their standards.
The kicker?
If heterosexual folks were the minority, they’d do the same damn thing!
“If heterosexual folks were in the minority…”
That’s like saying “if an NBA team of seven footers lost to a team of midgets…”
There’s no point in reading past the first paragraph since the reasoning there is so deeply flawed.
While some gay people were out or outed before say the mid-1980s most gay people well into the 70s were compelled by religious, familial, economic, and social reasons to pass as straight.
They married and had children.
That would have been even more true as you go back through the centuries.
Roman soldiers who were openly gay with their young male sex “slaves” also had full families at home.
Any so-called “die-off” of a gay gene could not possibly have commenced before 1985-ish? At best.
I have no concern about if there is a gay gene or not. I do have concerns about writers taking their readers down a plausible but merry path of unfounded bullshit. It happens way too much these days.
Any reasonably skilled writer can cause the reader to follow along a thought pathway, and that thought pathway can be total crap. Readers hand enormous power over to those whose work they read. Look at what has happened to our younger generations.
Take some responsibility for fuck’s sake.
In the ‘60’s a homosexual was someone who had sex with people of their own sex. By the ‘80’s a “gay” person was someone who was attracted to their own sex. Just go back to the old definition and stop the buggery. Voila.
I saw Brokeback Mountain. Both of the main characters had good looking wives whom they impregnated multiple times. We were supposed to conclude that if only society had been more tolerant, they could have lived the lives they wanted. I concluded that if they would have give up buttfucking each other they could have had happy lives.
I like both actors and I really like the author of the story the movie was based on, but I’m never going to watch it.
Some things are just not interesting and someone else’s sex life is at the top of that list, gay or straight.
I think my wife rented it. Some of the scenery was nice.
Homosexuality is sexual perversion, deviant behavior. As SmallerGovNow said, live and let live just don’t try and sell me your lifestyle or pretend that it is normal.
“A recent study has found two SNPs that influenced both male and female homosexuality”
Where is the link to this study? I am automatically suspicious if there is no link. I want to see this study. How big was it? Where there twins involved?
Z-man has my bullshit-o-meter in the red.
So maybe there is a innate tendency for some people to be homosexual. His analogy to alcoholism might be relevant and it might not be. It doesn’t mean it’s a good thing for society to have a large minority of perverts running around. You see what has happened already? Convicted child molesters reading stories to young children in libraries. 10 year old transvestites twirking in nightclubs and having money stuffed in their pants!
I won’t get graphic here but honest older homosexual men will tell you what has happened to their rectums as a result of using it for a sexual activity it was never meant for. Medical procedures are required to repair all of the damage. Who pays for all of this? We, as a society are paying for the social damage. So when you say live and let live, I say fine. As long as you live in the closet.
There have been study after study that shows extremely high correlation of abuse at a young age with homosexuality. These assholes are now trying to say that pedos seek out kids with the gay gene. What a load of crap.
As much as homosexuals vehemently deny it, homosexuality and pedophilia are inextricably linked. Almost all homosexuals have had their first homosexual “experience” introduced to them by an ADULT homosexual as pre-teen males. This, in itself constitutes homosexual pedophilia, which is criminal behavior in itself and is a way to destroy a pre-teen child for life.
The so-called Roman Catholic priest “child abuse scandal” was actually homosexual pedophilia in action. Of course the “mainstream media” could not afford to offend the “homosexual community” by calling what it really was–thereby, the “play on words”, calling it “child sex abuse” rather than homosexual pedophilia–the true definition of their sordid behavior.
I must play “devil’s advocate” when it comes to the Catholic church homosexual pedophilic priest “problem”…The Catholic church was “caught between a rock and a hard place” and had every right to be concerned about how many false claims would be made by those parishioners who belonged to the parish at the same time as this behavior was going on. Follow the money… Of course, there is (and was) absolutely NO EXCUSE for this homosexual pedophilic behavior…
Sad to say, the homosexuals are at it again, encouraging the “psychiatric community” to change the definition of pedophilia from a psychiatric “disorder” to a mere “lifestyle”, not unlike what was done for homosexuality. Sick, huh??
I always call it the Gay Priest Problem, and a coworker gets a confused look and tells me it’s a pedophile problem. Well, they ain’t molesting girls, now are they?
Bilge
Hollywood has done a terrific job normalizing homosexuality, so it may be a status symbol for Gen Z to say they are homosexual. The newest trend, started after the Obergefell decision, is transgenderism and once again, Hollywood is leading the way in normalizing it.
I shudder to think what the world will look like to my great granchildren and if there will be ANY procreation in white people.
There’s a word for kids who adopt the other gender to be cool or interesting: transtrenders.
Wow, why are we having this debate?
oh, that’s right, because the last president was a drug addicted butt pirate, who tried to push the agenda of the people who control all the narrative in this country.
That’s right, the entire Media (Hollywood->local news station) is loaded with them, and they seek to normalize this lifestyle choice.
(it’s not a choice, it’s an agenda)
Well Mouse, you nailed it. It’s an agenda and huge swatches of legislation have been created to promote said agenda. Forcing people to address trans as whatever pronoun? check. Bathrooms for women open to men? Check. Drag queen library hour? Check. Men competing as women in women’s sports? Check. Children dressing as drag queens and dancing for money in gay bars? Check.
There’s a very long list of how we’re FORCED to accept perversions and mental illness as normal. What is the purpose of such agendas? Dominance and control.
I believe that most, if not all, same sex attractions can be traced back to physical and/or mental abuse during childhood. Grooming in some cases. Unless they can be brought back to a more “normal/natural” frame of mind such people should be barred from leadership and teaching positions.
Gay might be a population management strategy. It makes sense in that respect. Just wonder why China never implemented that solution.
Even in the animal kingdom, some males get to mate and the rest are SOL.
Well, in my little bunny warren, I have a lop-eared buck named Otto (for Paula’s grandson Otto), who has now bred with two does and garnered me two little golden does, who took off into the woods and are perhaps dead or have gotten lucky with the wild studs out in Mark Twain’s forest.
The wild rabbits won’t come near my white rabbits, but these are more wild looking. I have high hopes to introduce a new species into the region. I have three too many white rabbits. Nobody wants white rabbit fur.
Go ask Alice, when she’s ten feet tall
LOL… It ain’t wonderland.
The LGBT group is (as a whole) being used to bludgeon society by the Leftists. The leftists don’t give a whit about these or any other groups that they are using. The fact is : most in these groups are too stupid to to see what’s happening. Maybe they don’t even care if they are tools. However, there will be a backlash that ultimately sets them back further than if the Leftists never came along and foisted them down the collective throat of society. Leftists ruin everything they come into contact with.
Do people choose to get disease ? I submit that on some level they do. All dis-ease is psychosomatic.at the very root. Maybe Gay people are coping with things in their mind the best way they know how to. Mankind today does not know what they don’t know. They only functions on a level of their current understanding of the mind.
I couldn’t care less if any particular person is homosexual. I do have a problem with it being pushed everywhere as an agenda. Homosexuality is not a ‘value’ it is in society’s best interests to promulgate.