Submitted by Raven
If you have ever considered bugging out, what considerations and locations have you contemplated? No need to divulge any personal plans here. I’m just looking to check my thinking.
Two recurring locations occur for me:
Ocean or waterfront (preferably ocean) with a good clean water source?
Mountain hideaway?
Or ideally, both.
Lately I’ve wondered about whether a hunter-gatherer philosophy to survival might be best.
Hearty resourceful neighbors and more than an average tank full of gas away from cities are also important.
Will need to grow, produce or hunt for food and clothing. Need trees for energy and shelter.
I like the idea of northern coastal areas. Mountainous in many places, resilient people, less populated, natural homesteaders. Short growing season is a big negative. But there are ways to cope.
I’ve thought about going south, but it just doesn’t feel “healthy” for some reason. Too hot and buggy. Too many diseases and crop pestilence. Too conducive to losing ones cool too easily in my mind. The cool northern air feels fresher, cleaner to me, and the cold weather will keep people in doors more often.
Hope you’re all well.
The first thing I did was make a list of places I liked, and start researching demographics, and projected demographics. When I found some to my liking, I researched why they were to my liking, who and how are those states and counties governed. Stability is key. Martin County, Florida, had both favorable demographics, local government controlled by the uber rich residents of Jupiter island, the ultimate NIMBY situation, great city amenities on the coast, and the rest of the county is totally rural. It’s only a one hour commute to my Broward operations. Florida has no income tax, great weather, great fishing and diving, and Martin County is run properly. Perfect
Bugging out is not an option for most people. If you have a destination that is secure but just wandering the country side looking for someone to take you in is just not going to work. As the big shittys empty the countryside will tribe up against you.
I know I will.
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Well, I wish I knew how to post an image.
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If you’re going any place highly desirable to you it is probably highly desirable to everyone else of a like mind as well.
So when you get there you will have to fight your way in against those already there ahead of you then fight off those coming after you to keep possession of it.
Unless it is a mass evacuation, in which case there will probably be government forces directing where you will and will not go you will have to overcome first.
All you need is the fire power – you can take anything you need from the preppers.
Define “bugging out”.
Most small communities like you describe are already somewhat self sufficient and would organize quickly to become that way in a collapse situation. If you don’t already own property in one of them and think you are just going to move into private property and take up residence because you have a gun and some ammo then you should be designing a funeral plan – not a bug out plan.
My community is a smaller city (less than 80,000 residents) and i would guesstimate 15% of household heads already think like me and 30% to 50% of all households are armed. in a really bad situation like a collapse the number of people who think like me will climb to 50% or more simply out of instinct to survive. That will happen quickly as our common interest in this situation is security and stability. I think the bulk of the town (property owners) would organize in short order in this situation as the world would change over night thus those ‘bugging out’ who think they can move into our back yards without our cooperation would likely find themselves living in our cemeteries.
Just because systems collapse doesn’t mean that humanity does in general. If you live in a large urban area get out now. That should be your bug out plan. The smaller communities will survive even if nation states do not. Remember – the Romans didn’t disappear – they just became Italians.
Francis,
How long would your community last if everything -supplies, power, water, etc., were to stop coming in from outside?
And how many of the people there would it be able to continue supporting without them?
A worst case scenario, of course, but I’ll guess all efforts are going to go to supplying more populace areas before they are given to small and relatively insignificant ones.
Assuming a massive, long lasting and widespread disaster, of course, which is the usual “bugging out” scenario that gets discussed. Short term stuff like a hurricane or tornado are already dealt with adequately.
@duchman
Clack clack.
Mountains for sure. Hunter gatherer. My place is in central new york with a stream and springs on hunting acreage with ‘gatherables’ and like minded neighbors. If you want a place in fuck no where, my old place will be for sale come summer.
@admin
Have you considered setting up some sort of classified section where your readers could advertise a camp residence or stuff they make?
the whole concept is not very realistic, it is a mind trick, to keep you busy, buying useless freeze dried food that will expire before you “need” it.
the system never collapses, it just degrades over time, look a Venezuela now, for what happens when a financial system implodes.
but, to answer the authors question,
I would “shelter in place”
my neighbor raises pigs, cows, chickens, and I would imagine we would have to set up road blocks if the store shelves are empty, to keep the two legged animals from over running our positions.
I like the plains. Why? Because nobody will be coming out here to bug me.
Raven,
There really is no such thing as “bugging out.” Somehow, there
has been an image drawn of some person, family, or group taking
to the roads with loaded backpacks.
Or driving away from home to the “countryside” to survive brutish
mayhem in a city environment. Camping, tent staking, fire making
and hunting advice is offered. Nonsense.
I prefer GOFD…get out of Dodge. Relocation to another area of the
country takes time, planning, and cash money. Most locations have
pluses and minuses obviously. Personal preferences for mountains
versus deserts, ocean areas versus lake areas, small towns versus
rural areas.
GOFD…should your city abode become uninhabitable you may want
to leave…but to where? Maybe preposition in a trailer park? Make
arrangements to stay with country-cousins?
There are bears where I live. They may or may not be shining around.
My son took a picture of a huge bear peeking in through his screen
door last year. We see paw prints near the stream. There are cougars,
wolves, and massive mosquitoes, and ticks. Other areas have alligators,
snakes, or scorpions. Camping is a poor option.
Are you really asking about various locations one could resettle to?
In any case, better get started…or fortify/harden your present home.
Anon writes:
“How long would your community last if everything -supplies, power, water, etc., were to stop coming in from outside?”
This is a stupid question. The community is two things – One – a geographic location and two – human beings. It exists with or without modern amenities. A better question to ask is how many of the people living in said community would survive before the community could rebuild some basic infrastructure? Nobody can answer that question for certain but so long as basic sanitation can be maintained the survival rate amongst the healthy might not be too bad. It would also depend on the time of year said event happened. I know this is hard for everyone to hear but even the deaf amongst us are not completely ignorant and will adapt once forced to – especially if there is moral leadership amongst the business, agricultural and political community. People will learn to garden, trade, build etc so long as there is a degree of security. Engineers and the like do not forget their trades in the event of systemic collapse. Trade does not cease. Would it all change? Yes. Would it be chaos for a time? Yes. It would likely never look the same again. Large cities would burn, people would riot and loot but the worst among us would get shot and hung as the best among us rallied. Civilization would go on… it would just look very different.
To be honest my biggest concern is the same as Maggies. Do I have enough TP? And how long would it take me to build a plant to produce it in the event of a collapse?
“I’ll guess all efforts are going to go to supplying more populace areas before they are given to small and relatively insignificant ones.”
With the exception of food which we know we can make ourselves if we have to which supplies outside of medications and TP are you worried about? Most of our economy is built around the trade of shit we don’t really need. As long as basic infrastructure is in place (water and sanitation) there is nothing that most of us need from “them” in order to be rescued. The big problem most people will face is trying to find something productive to do in the face of the new normal. A simpler, more basic economy does not need a million office assistants, bureaucrats or retail cashiers. People will have to adapt – but that’s what we do when we’re forced to.
“Assuming a massive, long lasting and widespread disaster, of course, which is the usual “bugging out” scenario that gets discussed.”
Short of nuclear war or a comet hitting the planet I don’t see a Mad Max scenario coming from a financial collapse or the like. If either of the first possibilities occur nobody will be bugging anywhere. The best thing you can do to prep for those possibilities is get comfortable with your mortality.
Raven, Nick and I grew so enamored with the idea of bugging out that we bought 35 acres (later added the adjoining three acre lot with a little shack on it for next to nothing) in the Missouri Ozarks that was within a day’s drive. It had a creek running through it for water, a spring fed pond and half woodland for hunting and half cleared ground for growing hay for livestock. Soon, after a couple of camping trips here, we were dreaming of just flat-out living here.
And here we are… putting in a garden with some very like-minded neighbors all around who have come from suburbs of cities all around us with much the same thing in mind. The locals begrudgingly accept us newcomers because we were willing to pay the “outrageous” prices for land ($1500 an acre is CRAZY in their hillbilly minds) and so we bought what they wouldn’t pay the price to own.
We love being bugged out. Nick got the rails on the front porch for Easter!
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@maggie
Now thats doing it in style. My new place is neither pretty nor big. But I shot the walls with r-38 worth of spray foam, and the cielings at around r-90. Hit 30 below one night this winter. Stayed 41 degrees in there on my body heat alone, as the stove wasnt in yet.
In order to really bug out and protect yourself – you need a small community – that can establish and maintain a perimeter around your land and shelter – guys with scopes and 30-06’s (night vision also) should be able to keep everyone a 1/2 mile away. Without that – it’s Deliverance time.
SE Arizona sounds good to me — moderate climate and not too populated…other places in AZ or NM can also work
@Percivalwinter, the ceilings are insulated with the spray foam… supposedly 94% efficient compared to the rolled insulation at 40%. I believe it… quiet as can be unless near a window upstairs and the wood stove heats the entire log home without the heat kicking on all day long.
@Dutchman…we placed the log home on the hill for just that reason. We can see for at least a half mile in all directions except for the woods that are about a 1/4 mile behind us. The big dogs tell us when anything is coming from that direction. At first, I wanted the home hidden behind the pond, but my dear friend now gone to stand with the Lord convinced me that on the hill was where it needed to be.
The big cities will become uninhabitable for a while, as the FSA riots for non-existent support (EBT fails, welfare checks fail, free phones stop working) and burns in frustration what they could not rebuild. Police will try to keep order and kill a few, but will be overwhelmed in weeks if not days; supplies will not come fast enough to keep millions fed when tens of thousands are rioting. The innocent will suffer.
Look for a place now that you can fit in then. Become known as one who fixes, builds, maintains; flash no cash but use your hands to help others. Become the person everyone else wants on their side, if you aren’t that person already. Plan and backup plans, supplies and backup supplies, skills and backup skills. And don’t be in downtown Chicago when the EBT cards fail; or have a safe room with three months of supplies. Best of luck!
Bugging out seems to be a “it depends” answer. What exactly are you bugging out from? If it’s civil unrest, chances are the roads will be clogged with checkpoints by “authorities” or gangs and you won’t get very far.
I live in the suburbs of D.C. Many of my neighbors have weapons, but I doubt many have any long-term preps (i.e., food for more than a month). Best to know your neighbors today, and be able to formulate a defense when the time comes, but not necessarily before due to OpSec concerns.
I made the mistake of alluding to having some preps to a neighbor who said he didn’t have any but would just take others’ stuff. He may have to be dealt with as Rick Grimes would do.
If you aren’t already at your bugout location (a la, Maggie-style) when TSHTF, it may already be too late.
Oceanfront is not practical for a bug-out or get out of dodge situation for a lot of reasons: Too expensive, too many vacation homes, too many people, etc. Not to mention increased possibility of natural disasters (hurricane, earthquake, tsunami, volcano eruption, etc) in coastal areas.
Mountains aren’t bad, but there are issues. For example, food preservation. If you’re above 1000 feet above sea level all the govt approved pressure canning directions say to increase your weight to 15 lbs of pressure but don’t say anything about decreasing the time if you’re at the lower end of the height scale. I’m at about 1100 feet and a lot of my initial efforts at pressure canning were way over cooked with a nasty burned taste. The instruction book for my new “All American Pressure Cooker/Canner” has an “Altitude Adjustment Chart” with decreased the time for lower altitudes. My canned food is turning out much better since I started following that chart, but since it doesn’t follow the govt approved directions I don’t know how much longer before they are required to remove it from the instruction book, so don’t be surprised if you buy an All American and the chart isn’t in the instruction book.
A lot of other people have discussed why you shouldn’t just pick out a spot without purchasing property so I won’t go into that, but even if you are a property owner the other property owners won’t necessarily accept you, especially if you don’t live on your property full time. We’ve been living on our current “get out of dodge” property full time for about 17 years now and the locals are friendly, but we will never be “one of us” to them.
A couple good resources for picking a good spot to buy your property: “Strategic Relocation, North American Guide to Safe Places 3rd Edition” by Joel M Skousen and Andrew Skousen has lots of information about picking a location in the US or another country. I used to have a link to a good map that showed all the nuclear power plants in the US and the areas they could affect if they melted down, but the site has been hijacked and turned into a global warming propaganda site. The following site at least lists the commercial power plants: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/interactive/2012/mar/08/nuclear-power-plants-world-map You don’t want to be within 50 miles of a nuclear reactor or farther if you’re in the direction of the prevailing wind – unless you’re not concerned about the possibility of the nuclear reactors melting down because of a natural disaster (ala Fukushima), an EMP, or societal collapse.
I wonder if Llpoh has enough room?
I will tell you this… if indeed the SHTF, we won’t turn anyone away who has common sense and can make do in the barn or the treehouse or any other makeshift lodging on the place. I imagine my basement will be occupied already. But, we won’t be overrun easy by those thinking they will just come and move in.
If you already have any sort of reasonable place, stay in place — hope all your assumptions and contingencies about that place work in your favor. Be stocked up on food, weapons and ammo and key resources. Recruit people you love and trust to pool resources and fighting strength. Weather the storms, or die trying. Life on the road or in the hills is more likely to be nasty, brutish, tragic and short.
Also, be prepared to deal with life if things never get that bad. It will require different skills and adaptations.
@percivalwinter I’ve looked frequently in Upstate NY. Don’t live very far from there either. Maybe 4-5 hours away. Would like more information about your “old place coming available this summer”.
Do you have a link to the address or general location that you can share? If you’d prefer, you can reach me at [email protected]. Much appreciated.
@Pablo Sheltering in place would be very desirable as I live in a relatively rural area, but very liberal as well. Although I guess that distinction won’t matter much in a collapse. I also agree with your comments about Venezuela. I have family there. They’re very resilient people and will shoulder on for as long as “things” are available,, but as the JIT system grinds to a halt, things will get dicey. Hunger has a way of unhinging you, especially if you’re listening to your children crying!
@Suzanna Points well taken and appreciated. Thanks.
@Francis Marion Living in a small urban yet rural area with like minded folks is probably the best of all possible realities if/when things fall apart. Living in isolation, or nearly so, is like having a target painted on your back. My area, although rural, has a lot of hunters. There won’t be much to go around if they should all get active simultaneously before some rudimentary order can be established. One of my main concerns about staying here. The area is also very “clannish”. If you weren’t born here, you’re considered an outsider. I’m guessing there will be a “us vs. them” mentality that will be frustrating and dangerous in overcoming.
@Maggie I feel the same way. It will be a time to help out as much as possible! Love your attitude and home in the Ozarks! It looks like the kind of place I’ve had in mind for several years now, but a major financial setback prevented it’s realization. Still looking, planning and hoping though.
@Dutchman Unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with you about survival sans community. 🙁
@correcamino Resilient folks in the desert outback! I’ll have to give that area a look see. Thanks
@jamesthewanderer Thanks for the analysis. My thoughts exactly!
@Rise Up Thank you for that gem about walking the line between planning with neighbors and telegraphing your “circumstances”. It may well be that I’ll have to stay. That may be what was behind the financial issues that scuttled my plans several years ago. This area has potential and underneath the steely and suspicious exteriors of those born here, there is decency and even Faith. Many may surprise me with their generosity and old-time wisdom. Respect for the elderly may once again take it’s rightful place in our cultural values!
@Araven 🙂 All good considerations. I appreciate the book suggestion and link to nuclear sites especially. Being raised a good Italian, I am not queasy about eating over or underdone food, as it’s the joy of eating with family and friends that’s the point anyway. 🙂 Thank you.
+++
As I’ve said in previous comments and posts, I see a silver lining here in the midst of the apocalypse and would love a focus from time to time on that. Something new is growing in the decay, and it looks a lot like a resurgence of what most of us recall with fondness from only a few short decades ago. I miss my grandparents!
@Bob Thanks. That makes me feel more comfortable with a full range of possibilities. I really like to stay. I hate moving! 🙂
Molon Labe, Dutchie.
My preps are complete…. I just received a gallon of Maple Syrup from Hardscrabble Farmer from the mail lady (who uses any excuse to come up the drive and see the progress on the log home. Even though this box would have fit in our oversize mailbox, she brought it up to me because she was worried about the sawdust coming out of the bottom. Nice packing!)
Dutch,
There is enough hardware on this continent to arm every citizen several times over (even in Kanucklestan). The difference between making it though a collapse where law and order breaks down and not making it through is the resolve of the people in maintaining civility (I would call this a broad subject btw). As Raven stated I think smaller communities will stand a better chance of keeping order and of building relationships with neighbouring communities than large ones will.
As for me – I am more concerned about what government will do during the guaranteed downward spiral of our civilization in general than I am about collapse itself.
Dying political/legal and financial systems are like wounded animals. I liken it to a large black bear we shot a few years ago off the side of a remote logging road in northern BC. It turned and cut bait into the thickest nastiest bit of brush in 50 square miles. I knew it was hit well and I could hear the death moan but I’d be a liar if I told you that the 60 feet I went from the edge of the trail to the bear’s corpse wasn’t the 60 scariest fucking feet I have every crawled in my life. In short a wounded bear is still a bear and usually the most dangerous of its sort – especially when you’re not sure exactly where it is and what it’s going to do next. Our systems aren’t much different right now. I keep waiting for them to get nastier day by day…. they never seem to disappoint.
I would echo what others have said and say that get the hell out of urban areas. They will be deathtraps, especially if you are white. Anybody who can possibly leave that is still urban even at this point is flat out nuts, in my opinion.
I think bugging out pioneer style is out of the reach of 99% of modern Americans. Even the Native Americans and early settlers, who were MUCH tougher and had far more survival savvy had a devil of a time making it in the wilderness. There is simply no margin for error at all. Unless you have a lot of experience, I think trying it is crazy. I grew up doing hardcore backwoods stuff with my dad and I’d still be hesitant to try it. All it takes is one good accident (and the ways of accomplishing that are myriad) and you are toast.
If I had to pick an ideal spot to ride out the madness, it would probably be the Ozarks. Not a lot of people, moderate climate, plenty of trees for building and firewood, lots of fresh water, and the people are resilient and tough and self sufficient. The Alleghenies and some parts of Appalachia would be good choices too. We live in very rural northeast Ohio and I’d recommend it too. Enough winter to kill of the bugs and pathogens, but warm enough for a good growing season. You biggest issue in all of these places would be the people accepting you.
Your best bet, if you really think this is something you’ll need to do, is move to your chosen spot now. Rural people are notoriously insular (especially in the eastern mountains, they’ve been screwed over by strangers so many times that newcomers are not trusted), and if you wait until a crisis to show up, good luck getting your foot into anyone’s door.
Learn the skills you need now: gardening, wildcrafting (finding wild foods and medicinals) canning, smoking, pickling and other preserving, butchering, hunting, building, repair/fabrication, sewing, first aid, defense, etc. Knowledge is the greatest thing you have to trade (because it can’t be stolen from you) and might keep you alive someday no matter where you end up. The Foxfire books are terrific for a glimpse into what it takes to live on next to nothing. If nothing else, learn to make and run a still. People everywhere want alcohol. If not that, then learn rudimentary medical skills and herbal lore. Babies will need to be delivered, injuries will need to be healed, sickness will need tending. Where There Is No Doctor is a great book.
If you are talking about survival options if you are forced from your home, I’d advise reading up on things like the Armenian massacre. You DO NOT want to be part of a mass removal run by any gov’t, anywhere, time and time again history proves that they are horrible beyond words.
During the Armenian expulsion, for example, the Armenians were rounded up and driven on forced marches from town to town, with no end destination in sight, just a death march to nowhere. The men were separated from the women and so the women and children were on their own. The girls were raped so brutally that they would do things like jump down wells to suicide themselves to escape that possibility. What meager belongings they managed to scrabble together when driven out were quickly abandoned as too cumbersome to carry, bartered for food, or outright stolen by soldiers or enemy Turkish civilians. Small children became too heavy to carry, and so they had to walk, which killed them quickly from exhaustion. With that many people on the move and no sanitation whatsoever, disease ran through their ranks like wildfire. The people weren’t given enough food (if any at all), and the only hope of keeping themselves alive was having something to barter for food (at exorbitant prices) when they passed through villages. Any wealth they had was stolen if visible (and hard to hide, with no belongings to stash it in) and people took to swallowing their gold and then collecting it from their excrement and reswallowing it. The only safe place for it was out of sight in their bellies. That worked until the soldiers figured out what they were up to and started slitting open bellies looking for gold.
I don’t know what the options are for avoiding something like that, but I’d say a rule of thumb is avoid being part of a gov’t run mass exodus at all costs. Head in the opposite direction of it and don’t look back, no matter what you manage to bring with you and no matter what you need to leave behind. Even being shot while attempting escape is better than being a part of such a living hell.
Stay away from highrises. Carrying water & food up 30 flights of stairs when the power is out can be a real bitch. Plus windows that don’t open and toilets that don’t flush. Then, there’s fire.
As far as bugging out is concerned, first you’ve got to “get there” and unless you’ve made your move before TSHTF you’re going to be out of luck. Then you have to consider defending whatever you have at your bug-out location.
It’s a real dilemma, because we the sheeple really don’t know what we’re even planning for. If nukes drop, all bets are off.
MONTANI SEMPER LIBERTI
About a year ago I was looking to sell the farm and buy a piece of property closer to my home .
I found 52 acres with a spring feed pond . I really liked the place. My neighbor has had a standing offer to buy the farm from me .
I went to supper with a close friend and told him what I was going to do . Like me he’s a bit of a prepper and gun lover .
He told me I was making a big mistake selling the farm . That I knew everyone in the area, who I could trust and who I couldn’t,that i knew the layout of the land,I knew where resources were and last bu not least that the area had only a few roads in or out .
He said I’d be buying a place closer to a big town, that I didn’t know the people in the surrounding area and that it would be a huge mistake. He was right on all accounts .
So I kept the farm .