Punishment vs. Being Held Responsible

Guest Post by Eric Peters

Which is better?

Which is right?

Punishing people … or holding them responsible for the harms they cause?

Libertarians think (well, this Libertarian thinks) it is enough to hold people responsible for any harms they cause. That punishing them when they have caused no harm to anyone is bizarre, cruel – and most of all, morally indefensible.

Punishment is fundamentally vindictive.

It is about harming the person – either physically or some other way (as by taking his money or depriving him of his liberty).

If the person who is the object of punishment has harmed someone, how does harming him benefit his victim?

And if there is no victim….

Unless you are a vindictive person, why would you seek to harm someone who hasn’t harmed you – or any other person?

What’s to be gained?law graphic

But he has “broken the law!”

Yes, but where’s the harm in that?

Consider the recent VW scandal. The government imposed billions in fines, forced VW to stop selling cars (those with the “cheating” diesel engines) and demanded that VW buy back – and destroy – hundreds of thousands of already sold cars.

Because VW didn’t comply with the law.

But is there any evidence that actual people have actually been hurt by any of this? I mean, other than the people who own VWs and who work for VW and who own VW stock – all of whom have lost money and some of whom may end up losing their jobs?

Harley Davidson is being punished, too. But – other than having (apparently) violated a law, what is the problem?

Morally, that is?

Too many people have been conditioned to regard illegal as being synonymous with wrong in the moral sense. This is necessary to get them to accept being punished – and (very important,from the government’s point of view) to support others being punished – even when no one’s been harmed.

Most of the laws on the books are of this type. A person is convicted of acting contrary to a statute and is punished. Jaywalking on up.

The law was “violated.” In legalese, this is known as malum prohibitumtorture

But how does one “violate” mere words on a piece of paper? The word seems… awkward. Only flesh and blood human being can be violated in any morally meaningful sense, because you can’t hurt a non-living thing; a piece of paper with words written on it.

It is weird, when you stop to ponder it, that it’s not necessary to even assert that a person’s actions have injured some other person (malum in se, something intrinsically wrong) in order for this thing called “the law” to harm actual flesh and blood human beings.

To gratuitously impose suffering.

This is pretty sick.

The way things are, the complete lack of any evidence that another person has been injured is worthless as a defense.

It ought not to be.

Why on earth should it not be necessary to establish that an actual human being has been harmed in some tangible way before imposing a harm upon an actual human being?

And, why harm them at all?

Why not simply require them to make good the harm they have caused?

That is, why not hold them responsible?

Punishing them doesn’t accomplish this. It only harms the person accused of having caused the harm. It does not make the person who was harmed whole again. leave u alone

And that should be be the object of justice.

First, prove someone’s been harmed, either their person or their property; that they have suffered some loss of value. Having established this – and quantified this – the person responsible is then obligated to make up the loss resulting from his actions. Not others who had nothing to do with it (as, for instance, is often demanded by advocates of “gun control” – who insist that people who haven’t shot anyone be “controlled” as if they had, in fact, shot someone).

Not the driver who hasn’t lost control of his car.

Or the bar owner who isn’t forcing anyone to enter his establishment.

Nor the people who freely decide to do business with another and are each happy with the freely consented to arrangement – even if the arrangement is not in conformity with “the law.”

Certainly not the person who prefers to be left out of other people’s “plans” and only asks to be left alone.

And so on.

Imagine how much simpler life would be – and how much freer we’d all be.

As things are, we each run a gantlet of malum prohibitum laws every day, violating many – and so living under the constant threat of being punished.

But most of us have never harmed anyone. Don’t plan to and probably never will.

Wouldn’t it be something if we knew that so long as we didn’t hurt anyone, we had no worries about men with guns coming after us? arthur

Personally, I have no interest in punishing anyone. I see no point to it – except for the pleasure of making another person suffer. There is a medical term for such a person and it is not the sort of person I’d like to be and hope I am not.

I suspect most people are of the same mind.

You smashed up my car? You owe me what it was worth before it was smashed up. If that means you have to make payments to me for the next 20 years, so be it. But that’s it. I don’t want anyone else’s money – or their freedom.

The fact that you weren’t able to control your car doesn’t mean everyone else can’t, either – and should be punished for not losing control of their car but only for having violated some law.

Punishment is so … medieval.

I think it belongs back in the Dark Ages.

Holding people responsible – that’s the future.

If we are to have one that’s different from the Dark Ages.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
11 Comments
CREDIT
CREDIT
August 31, 2016 6:47 am

“is there any evidence that actual people have actually been hurt by any of this? I mean, other than the people who own VWs and who work for VW and who own VW stock ”
do the VW stock owners/workers not count? what about VW competitors who complied with the law, and the competitive damage done to them and their employees by VW’s cheating?
and if I drive 125 mph on the highway, nobody was harmed, so should i not get a ticket because i did not kill anyone YET?
slavery, for example, is illegal because a person and a society are harmed by it even though a rich man may economically induce a needy man to voluntarily become a slave.
this is some lightweight, shallow exposition right here.

Smoke Jensen
Smoke Jensen
  CREDIT
August 31, 2016 8:30 am

The only thing shallow here is your depth of understanding.

Anonymous
Anonymous
August 31, 2016 7:32 am

“if there is no victim”

Exactly what does that mean?

If you, for instance, smoke yourself into lung cancer or drive recklessly and hospitalize yourself in a single car accident and I end up stuck with your medical bills am I a victim? After all, your actions made it clear you were putting me at financial risk in advance.

And would I have the right to target practice with my rifle in my back yard until I actually wound or kill you when it was obvious I was putting you in danger?

In a Libertine (Libertarian) world, there is no rule of law other than the right of revenge as near as I can tell, and that leads to more of the same being justified on top of it and them more on top of that.

Smoke Jensen
Smoke Jensen
  Anonymous
August 31, 2016 8:45 am

“If you, for instance, smoke yourself into lung cancer or drive recklessly and hospitalize yourself in a single car accident and I end up stuck with your medical bills am I a victim?”
You’re forced to buy insurance by the government idiot. They placed you in that position. If you had the freedom to not buy insurance that pays for peoples recklessness you would not be financially liable . Get it?

“And would I have the right to target practice with my rifle in my back yard until I actually wound or kill you when it was obvious I was putting you in danger?”
If you knew you were putting someone in danger with your rifle then you would be held to account. And you would be even in a Libertarian society. Dumbass. If you have built a a safe range to practice your target shooting then no harm would come to anyone else and it should be perfectly legal. Why is this so hard to understand?

“In a Libertine (Libertarian) world, there is no rule of law other than the right of revenge as near as I can tell, and that leads to more of the same being justified on top of it and them more on top of that.”
Your depth of Libertarianism is shallower than ant pussy. But there’s hope for you.
http://www.zerothposition.com

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Smoke Jensen
August 31, 2016 8:50 am

What I know of real Libertinism is mostly what I’ve learned from the Libertines posting here and a few other Libertine friendly sites.

A lack of personal responsibility, at least for themselves, along with blaming everything on someone else and lawlessness seems to be their theme.

You know a tree by its fruit, and they are the fruit of the Libertine tree.

Show me otherwise.

Smoke Jensen
Smoke Jensen
  Anonymous
August 31, 2016 9:18 am

I take it back. There is no hope for you.

TrippleH
TrippleH
  Smoke Jensen
August 31, 2016 9:47 am

Morning Smoke,
Correct again. I find it amazing that some people won’t even do the most basic research on a subject, like the only real position of Libertarians is to follow the principles of non-aggression (NAP). Trying to help them understand and extrapolate that into a societal environment is only a waste of time and energy. “Help those who help themselves”.

Thank you for trying.

Smoke Jensen
Smoke Jensen
  TrippleH
August 31, 2016 10:24 am

There are people that would not survive in this world if they had to rely solely on their wits and self control. These people are scared of freedom and welcome the embrace of big brother. They love the being told what is right and wrong which they feel absolves themselves of the responsibility of making those choices on their own. They need to be told where to be, what to do, how to behave. To put it simply, they’re cowards except when it comes to the defense of the Borg and the hive mind. They’ll defend it to the bitter end.
I find solace in the fact the when TSHTF these very same people will walk into the camps that Big Brother has prepared for them and they will finally be in a place they so richly deserve.
The rest of us will have to pick up the pieces and start over.

peaknic
peaknic
August 31, 2016 11:12 am

AS in the VW scandal, there is a flaw in only looking to provable, direct harm to another individual as the only measure of a law’s legitimacy. In most cases of environmental damage, the proof is only available long after the damage is irreversible. This is the primary difference between the U.S. policy of requiring proof of harm from a specific toxic chemical and the E.U.’s policy of “REACH” (Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemicals) where the burden of proof is on companies to prove they are safe and that there isn’t a less toxic alternative that is just as effective for its purpose.
Just look at the PFOS, PFOA and BPA issues now. These are bioaccumulative, never degrading chemicals that are known to cause hormonal disruption in animals. Yet there is NO chance you will ever be able to prove that your child’s infertility or cancer as an adult was a direct result of exposure to those chemicals in-utero.
I am fully on board with libertarian principals regarding legislating morality (sex, drugs, public behavior, etc.), but just like Gary Johnson’s platform, there needs to be regulations on corporations and individuals which restrict behavior that cause indirect and diffused harms on the other living creatures of this planet.

Stucky
Stucky
August 31, 2016 11:16 am

“Personally, I have no interest in punishing anyone. ” —- EP

Really? What about rapists and murderers?

At any rate, you can thank Christian heritage for the concept of punishment. It seems that the majority of the OT consists of either God punishing people (how about that Flood?), or God calling on his Chosen Ones to inflict punishment on others. Of course, some will say the NT is all about Jesus and forgiveness. Yeah, about that …. you’re forgiven as long as you believe! . Non-believers turns God into a bb-like monster whose flesh, according to Revelation and many other places, will burn and the smoke of their torment will rise to heaven for eons upon eons. Mmmmm, punishment!!, yummy!!

Naturally, the Bible here can be as confusing as it is in many other areas … in terms of seemingly contradictory comments. I’m talking about what EP is hinting at … the very Biblical concept of restitution. Although, to be honest, the Biblical concept most often refers to an owner being reimbursed by someone who has stolen or harmed the owner’s property.

When the Good Samaritan provided for the wounded man, he wasn’t just being kind. He was fulfilling the principle of restitution for an injured man, according to Ex. 21:18-19. In fact, Exodus contains dozens of verses dealing with restitution. In the NT, Matthew the tax collector exemplifies the concept of restitution. When confronted with his lifestyle of stealing under the guise of government work, he admitted his sin and restored to the people four times what he had stolen from them.

Overall, in terms of NON-VIOLENT crimes, I tend agree with EP. Punishing some asshole who stole my car (which has happened twice) does ME no good whatsoever.

However, restitution probably won’t work in this fucked up society of me, me, me. Restitution requires a people with a basic concept of right and wrong. Those who do not pay back show a lack of good character — “The wicked borrows but does not pay back, but the righteous is generous and gives.” Ps 37:21

Most folks in the USA!USA!USA! don’t have the moral underpinning to act justly after doing wrong. Take for example that Kneegrow yute who stole my car (and damaged it) about 20 years ago … if I relied on restitution, I’d still be waiting today. SO … where does that leave me (us)? Right back where we started! That is to say, punishment is all that “works” — and even so, not very well — in today’s society.

susanna
susanna
August 31, 2016 11:25 am

A libertine is one devoid of most moral or sexual restraints, which are seen as unnecessary or undesirable, especially one who ignores or even spurns accepted morals and forms of behaviour sanctified by the larger society.[1][2] Libertinism is described as an extreme form of hedonism.[3] Libertines put value on physical pleasures, meaning those experienced through the senses. As a philosophy, libertinism gained new-found adherents in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, particularly in France and Great Britain. Notable among these were John Wilmot, 2nd Earl of Rochester, and the Marquis de Sade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

these 2 are/have different meanings (both per wiki) my laptop
balks with copy and paste/sorry